If full-bore EU re-entryism is so popular, why did it crater the Lib Dems and why aren’t the Lib Dems popular again?
I would never vote for them ever again after the student finance debacle. That has sunk them for all time with a lot of the electorate just as they were starting to be credible.
It also starkly illustrates the short-termism of modern politicians.
SKS originally spoke passionately about remain and rejoin/do-over. It got him nowhere other than Labour Leader. The polls clearly show that Rejoin/Brexit is NOT a vote winning issue, so if you're primary objective is to secretly rejoin the EU, but first you have to get elected and to do that you have to NOT alienate a large (30% block) of Brexiteers, what must you do? Walk like a duck, quack like a duck, but not wholly transform into a duck.
If you want to go back to the EU - Labour in majority (either wholly or in coalition) is your only chance of doing so. You can run the risk of voting for minorities and forcing the issue through them, or you can get behind Labour to get the tories out with a large majority and start fixing the bloody ship.
Yours, an active Liberal Democrat.
Daffy - don't forget that I live in Scotland so have far more choice than labour or tory to vote for and the tories have zero chance in my seat. My seat will be an anti tory seat no matter what. whatever I vote has no bearing on a labour government apart from if I vote SNP or green and as is highly likely the SNP win my seat will be represented by a pro europe party that does not gaslight over europe.
Labour need to get elected first, then they can change course.
Labour will write a manifesto, and if elected, that will shape their decisions over the duration of their reign.
If their manifesto allows for a substantial improvement of the brexit disaster, I might well vote for them. But based on what they have said, I think this is highly unlikely.
If you think Labour will get elected on a pro-hard-brexit manifesto, and then immediately say "ha ha fooled you all, we're going to rejoin the SM+CU" then I'm afraid you are utterly delusional.
The polls clearly show that Rejoin/Brexit is NOT a vote winning issue
I disagree strongly as do many pundits. That is just your opinion not a fact as is my position
Once again - I think living in Scotland with a huge pro EU majority and Plenty of Pro EU parties to vote for gives a very differnt perspective
Up here labours EU stance is a clear vote loser
I would never vote for them ever again after the student finance debacle. That has sunk them for all time with a lot of the electorate just as they were starting to be credible.
It also starkly illustrates the short-termism of modern politicians.
This shit again. Yes they gave up a lot, but have you looked what else they accomplished as a brake on Tory policies in those years? Had LD not conceded this issue, you'd have lost a lot more and the Tories would've still rammed it through in a subsequent, non-coalition government. Yes, it sucks, but had we got another government shortly, it might've been overturned. But headline readers hung the LD for it without ever really understanding the whole truth. Read up on it. Minimum wage, personal tax threshold, healthcare, benefits, environmental incentives.
In who's interest was it that headlines flamed the LD? Was it perhaps the party which then won an outright majority on their fall from grace?
I disagree strongly as do many pundits. That is just your opinion not a fact as is my position
Yours is an opinion, mine is not, it's fact and can be shown through several polls, surveys, etc.
It's also borne out by what I see/hear when I speak to people when campaigning for the LD. What's your supporting evidence?
Once again – I think living in Scotland with a huge pro EU majority and Plenty of Pro EU parties to vote for gives a very differnt perspective
LOL - I live in Bath and work in Bristol. 57% Remain and 62% Remain respectively. I went door to door in 2016, I was welcomed, harassed, spat on, shouted at and threatened while campaigning for Remain. What did you do?
What're you doing NOW? You're retired, yes? Lots of free time? USE IT!
I have to go now, it's finally home time. 🙂
Its still an opinion Daffy not a fact. Looking at the polling and the local election results I see Starmers brexiteer stance losing him significant votes
In Scotland 70% want to rejoin.
Yes they gave up a lot, but have you looked what else they accomplished as a brake on Tory policies in those years?
If they hadn't supported them the tory government would have fallen - they acheived less than nothing. they supported a vile tory government and did not act as a brake at all. They gave away all their power by stating they were there for the long run and would not collapse the government
Oh - and as for what I am doing with my time - I am campaigning for assisted dying - an non party political issue. Its exhausting.
I do not need to campaign for rejoin. Its the settled will of the scottish people. No minds to change here
from your link
"Overall, the electorate are split relatively evenly across these categories, with 37% saying they would be most likely to support a party in favour or joining the EU, 28% a party that is against joining and 36% saying they would be most likely to vote for a party that prioritises other issues."
Hardly a ringing endorsement of Starmers position
Looking at the polling and the local election results I see Starmers brexiteer stance losing him significant votes
with those lost votes translating into 500 gained seats..... hmmm. Sorry, I know it's boring and I said I wasn't bothering any more but that ^ is just wrong. Even if it's your opinion, it's demonstrably wrong.
In Scotland more than 70% want to rejoin
Really? Evidence?
I'm not voting Labour.
They don't need the rejoin vote, apparently.
That's literally it for me.
Libdem or Green it is.
👍
SUPPORT among Scottish voters to rejoin the EU is soaring, a poll has revealed.
A new Panelbase survey has found Scotland is even more opposed to Brexit than in 2016, when 62% voted against it.
Now, 72% have said they would vote to remain, while 69% would vote to rejoin the EU, up from 61% in January.
From the national last year.
https://www.thenational.scot/news/20680808.support-rejoining-eu-skyrockets-among-voters-scotland/
Yes Jonv - but with a pro EU stance they would also have taken some of the 500 seats that went to lib dem and green. thats my opinion. when the tories lose 1000 seats but labour only gains 500 of them thats a disappointment for labour and no endorsement of their stance. where there is a credible pro EU party to vote for many voters took that choice and voted pro EU.
Up here I have no doubt at all Starmers pro brexit position will cost them loads of seats. SNP are very weak and vulnerable and even the best projections show labour still coming 2nd to the SNP and given how soft the labour vote is once the SNP and greens start hammering them on being brexiteers in the campaign I am sure the ;labour vote share will slip
This shit again.
Yes, this shit again. Little Nicky got a smell of official car leather interior and lost his scruples and mind, failed to press his advantage on holding the balance of power and delivered us all to Austerity. With a working spine he might have achieved great things but all we got were wasted opportunities.
The ability to say no was open to both sides in the coalition one side used theirs and threatened the junior partner with loss of governing influence. A stiffer spine and we may well have reined in Cameron and Osborne to better social democracy as without LD support they could have achieved nothing. Remember that, nothing would have been possible in a hung parliament.
The risk to LD support was a zero sum. No support be crucified by the press, support and be crucified by the electorate. Of the two the press would have been easier to neuter.
SNP are very weak and vulnerable and even the best projections show labour still coming 2nd to the SNP
Not according to John Curtice, the current police investigation has made no difference to voting intentions.
That says that if we had the referendum today that 72% would vote to remain. Not that they vote to rejoin
69% (which is not last time I checked 'more than 70%') said they would vote to rejoin.
To extrapolate - 3% wish we hadn't done it but don't see the point in reversing now.
That's the issue - in constituencies where that 3% or whatever the equivalent is in England, etc are in marginals, that skews the outcome, and is the calculus that is driving the position..
but with a pro EU stance they would also have taken some of the 500 seats that went to lib dem and green.
I still don't think you've answered the question of why if Rejoin is such a vote winner, why not the reverse - why didn't LD and Green get all 1000 and more?
I did correct the "more than" apologies
I think lib dems and greens taking half the tory losses on a pro EU stance shows that very well. I believe / its my opinion that a pro EU labour would have taken 700+
You do not believe the very strong showing of the pro EU parties with shows anything - I do. along with the polling which shows pyublic opinion on brexit is shifting strongly and quickly towrds rejoin.
Even that poll daffy put up in defense of his stance shows pro EU as being the strongest position in winning votes even if its a pretty even split -
Its all interpretation and opinions
"Once again – I think living in Scotland with a huge pro EU majority and Plenty of Pro EU parties to vote for gives a very differnt perspective
Up here labours EU stance is a clear vote loser"
That's a fairly good point. But my perhaps rather simple deduction would be that the analysis behind Starmers stance suggests any lost seats in scotland would be more than balanced by gains elsewhere? I.e the gains from flipping blue to red more than offset yellow not flipping red.
I will not vote for a party that supports Brexit. thats a red line for me
sometimes you've got to pick a side, when you don't the Tories benefit.
I will not vote for a party that supports Brexit. thats a red line for me
I will vote however I need to get the tories out. Right now, that is the political vacuum of LD, but they've got the only chance in my area.
yes nickc - an I will probably pick a pro EU party knowing full well that they will never support the tories
In my constituency tories have no chance. Its probably going to be a labour / SNP marginal but could end up 3 way with the greens
NO matter who I vote for it will not be a tory seat and neither the SNP or greens will support a tory government. so in my seat it makes no difference to the likelihood of a tory government
If it was a tory / labour marginal then I might have to hold my nose to vote labour. But its not
Jonv - ( from Daffys link) its those 37% of voters that are more likely to vote for a rejoin party that I believe Starmer is in danger of losing their votes. to lib dems, green and SNP and that could lose him the majority. I believe with the right campaign that will not put off those 36% who want to concentrate on other issues - they are unlikely to shift their vote from labour to tory
Again - opinions and interpretation and as above I think living here gives a different view because we have pro rejoin parties to vote for
Some things are facts.
Both labour and conservatives are anti EU. They literally say so.
Neither will get my vote in the next GE or any local election on that basis alone.
‘I want to start a massive political cockfight right now that will consume everything’
Its going to happen anyway in the campaign where the pro EU parties will be given fair media coverage. Starmer is going to have to argue one side or the other. If he continues his pro brexit stance he will also be arguing against public opinion.
Brexit is going to be an issue at the next election even if both labour and tories want to try to ignore it. the pro EU parties will make sure of that.
Both labour and conservatives are anti EU. They literally say so.
That's a massive leap. I guarantee that most of the people in those parties aren't "anti" EU, but they have to say what people want to hear in order to get votes. That's the whole concept of democracy.
I believe Starmer is in danger of losing their votes
Of course, they will be monitoring the situation and will probably adjust their rhetoric. Probably one reason for floating it now is to test the water and see what the response is where it matters.
These things aren't just dreamed up in the pub one night, they employ teams of people whose job it is to analyse everything all the time.
I think one of the issues here is living in Scotland that is much more pro EU and has political leaders that call out brexit as the disaster it is alters the view. In England ( dunno about wales) you do not have political leaders doing this.
This isn't true, though. Scotland is not some magic exception. Despite the repeated nationalist and provincial moaning that the UK is ruled by London, London overwhelmingly voted against Brexit. There are political leaders in England calling out Brexit as a disaster. The fact that you haven't heard of them or are not interested in them is a different topic.
https://www.london.gov.uk/mayor-calls-end-vow-silence-brexit
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028.amp#cobssid=s
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-06/some-brexiteers-will-admit-eu-exit-has-been-a-disaster-amber-rudd#xj4y7vzkg
Fair enough . However its not really the same as having a pro eu government
There are political leaders in England calling out Brexit as a disaster.
Not sure that your interpretation of "political leaders" is the same as mine. That looks like some political fringe figures calling out Brexit as a disaster. The leadership (Labour and Tory) seems fully in favour.
Note also two contradictory approaches to calling out Brexit as a disaster. You can either say that it was a stupid idea badly done that's inevitably going to be harmful, or you can say that the current Brexit is a disaster because it's not been done hard enough yet. The latter doesn't help.
That looks like some political fringe figures calling out Brexit as a disaster.
The population of London is 50% larger than that of Scotland. Its economy is twice the size of Scotland's. Five times more EU citizens live in London than in Scotland.
Khan is not a fringe figure in British politics - although I can see why some Scottish nationalists would object to him.
A country is not the same as a city. Somewhat patronising policecameraaction
Again – you cannot fix the ship properly without reversing brexit
Yeah, yeah… we know
2 problems…
1. Getting a majority of the UK electorate to vote for reversing Brexit (including freedom of movement -EEK!) - good luck with that
2. The actual process of reversing Brexit - good luck with that too. Hope you’re not busy with owt else to do for the next 20 or 30 years
Other than those 2 issues, I’m sure it’ll all be peachy ****ing creamy. It’ll be just like we never left
1. Getting a majority of the UK electorate to vote for reversing Brexit (including freedom of movement -EEK!) – good luck with that
the majority are in favour - and with some leadership...............;.
the majority are in favour – and with some leadership……………;.
No, the majority isn't. As per the link I posted before, it's close to 50% but not quite and potentially topping out.
- and it's not about the majority, it's about what the key marginals think
the majority are in favour
Sounds very familiar, that
If only I could remember where I’d heard such unwavering certainty voiced so confidently before
Hmmmmmmmm….. when was it….?
Oh… oh…. I REMEMBER NOW… May 2016!
Do I win a prize? I know that Bullseye used to hand out speedboats, but when it comes to things I’ve no room or use for I’ve always quite fancied a shepherds hut
Ok - now imagine political leadership saying " its a disaster it needs to be reversed" how much will that add to the polling - and take out the don't knows and its a clear majority 🙂
Do I win a prize?
No - you will bankrupt me with your Greggs habit 🙂
Ok – now imagine political leadership saying ” its a disaster it needs to be reversed” how much will that add to the polling
Not half as much as they’ll lose when the same incredibly effective ‘bloody foreigners, eh?! The murdering, raping, job-stealing bastards’ campaign cranks up again
This worked then, and it’ll work just as well next time…
A country is not the same as a city. Somewhat patronising policecameraaction
Patronising is calling the political elected leader of that city a "fringe figure" in English politics because it doesn't suit your nationalist agenda or you just don't know anything about English politics.
Since we are getting into it, Khan has been consistently outspoken about Brexit, air quality, climate change and austerity. He has expanded ULEZ to protect a population greater than that of the whole of Scotland, reduced the price of bus travel, used procurement rules cleverly to get safer low level HGVs, pushed the Met Police (50% larger than Police Scotland btw) into a reform stance and been vocal with criticism...These are real practical things you can achieve when you prioritise competence and don't blame your constitutional limitations for your own failings. He has also been re-elected several times despite a tidal wave of racial and other abuse online (mostly from people that don't live in London afaics).
How's it going with the political giants in Edinburgh? Enjoying the ferries? Bottle recycling going okay?
A country is not the same as a city.
Not spent much time in London, have you? It's not just 'a' city.
Not going to open that debate here but it's an interesting one.
I lived in London for a while. Its just another big dirty polluted city like Paris or Barcelona etc etc To compare it to a country is fatuous. Kahn has nothing like the powers of the Scots parliament. London does not have its own legal system. I did not call him a "fringe" pokitician
I can't even be bothered to list all the accomplishments of the Scots parliament over its lifetime to compare.
It was brought to my attention on the Sunak thread, but tonight at 2230 on beeb 1 could be the TV comedy event of the year.
A Question Time special from Clackton (😂) only open to audience members who voted Leave.
Guaranteed laughs, I suspect.
I wonder, will the BBC actually do it properly and replace the theme tune with the one from the Benny Hill Show?
Absolutely ****ing brilliant!
Or this:
A Question Time special from Clackton
That’s good, as afterwards they can lead all these stupid ****ers off the pier.
A Question Time special from Clackton (😂) only open to audience members who voted Leave.
I understand that the Govt were given an invitation to fill a spot on the panel, but turned it down? Presumably they're too frit to face the people that voted for it.
I understand that the Govt were given an invitation to fill a spot on the panel, but turned it down? Presumably they’re too frit to face the people that voted for it.
I don’t get it. Seeing as it is all going so swimmingly, I would have thought the government would be all over that invite.
😂😂😂😂
That’s good, as afterwards they can lead all these stupid **** off the pier.
It'll be a piece of piss to get them there too - just announce that there’s an opportunity to do a bit of migrant dinghy spotting.
Seeing as it is all going so swimmingly, I would have thought the government would be all over that invite.
Precisely. All the ministers wanted to go and so they decided it was fairest if no one went.
Its the only explanation.
7th anniversary of *that* vote.
I wonder what “balance” criteria they used for audience selection. I’m guessing to won’t have only 1/5 saying Brexit has gone well…
Less than a fifth of Brexit voters believe it has been a success seven years on from the 2016 referendum, according to new polling.
The findings, based on an online survey of 4,005 UK adults from May 26 to June 2 and carried out by Public First for UK in a Changing Europe, show that 18% of Leave voters believe Brexit has gone "well" or "very well".
I lived in London for a while. Its just another big dirty polluted city like Paris or Barcelona etc etc To compare it to a country is fatuous.
Yes, certainly there's nothing in London that compares to the importance of a country like Moldova or Andorra or eSwatini. Yep, the kinds of complexity associated with being a sovereign state are completely unknown to us plebs that merely live in a semi-autonomous, sub-national local government area. 🤔
We thought Johnson was a **** for spending £43m on Joanna Lumley's bridge that didn't get built. But that's amateur hour compared to Sturgeon blowing £300m on ferries that aren't finished!
As for the Brexit Bumpkin Question Time, nope…..got as far as John Redwood opening his mouth before I switched off. I knew I’d have dreams of going full on Ryan Gosling in Drive, specifically the elevator scene on redwood, and most of the slack jawed dribbling idiots in the audience deserve the same.
It was brought to my attention on the Sunak thread, but tonight at 2230 on beeb 1 could be the TV comedy event of the year.
Not much of a laugh so far. Alastair Campbell is telling it to them straight - they were lied to.
The opposition is playing catch-up with public opinion in recognising that Britain needs reintegration with Europe
Labour is committed to a programme of entirely sensible tinkering at the edges of the problem – alignment with EU regulations as a precondition for lowering trade barriers; more liberal visa policies; renewed partnership with cultural and scientific institutions that make up the wider constellation of the European project.
That is an agenda for reintegration at the periphery of Europe, which is sound diplomacy and helpful at the economic margins, but cannot substantially shift the dial as long as Britain is still outside the single market and customs union.
Wake up Starmer! Try some leadership
Article in the grauniad which like always praises Starmer over all and is full of wishful thinking
Just got in and watching QT on catch up
The only person the Tory’s could get is John Redwood
JOHN *ING REDWOOD!!!
That tells you everything you need to know
*ing clowns!
Finally a tangible benefit I can use.
I'm going to go up on my roof later and no faceless Brussels bureaucrat can stop me!
https://twitter.com/BestForBritain/status/1671964786974662667
There's a load on twitter, satirists can once again take the week off.
I didn't watch it in the end. I doubt I'll bother. It sounds about as funny as watching lambs waiting patiently in a holding pen at the abattoir. And very similar on a number of levels.
I may rewatch it in full later, but hearing dickhead roof guy holding that up as a benefit to a guy whose business may go under due to difficulties and costs of importing goods, that was too much.
Dickhead roof guy? 🤔
Wake up Starmer! Try some leadership
You cannot negotiate to return to the EU from opposition.
No - but he could be leading and moulding public opinion instead he is way way behind fighting against public opinin and gaslighting and lying about brexit
Yeah - unfortunately plenty of voters are like whatsherchops in the clip who don't like it when "we change our minds all the time". Of course they have no fing idea what that means or what the issues are, but running on a platform of "five more years of mind-changing with me" is not a vote winner.
There is also the real risk that a new Labour government could end up completely preoccupied with negotiating to join the EU and not achieve any of the other important things or get re-elected. It's cute to say "do two things at once" but as we have seen from Brexit and COVID, the state and the legislature have limited bandwidth.
The problem is as that without a proper trading relationship with the EU then everything labour wants to do is much much harder. the other is by focusing so intently on not upsetting a few racists in a few northern constituencies he is going to lose votes and seats in other areas. Scotland particularly which Starmer say he wants to focus on and to gain seats to govern for all of the Uk he is only going to attract votes from unionist brexiteers and thus find it very hard to cut into the SNP vote - despite the disarray of the SNP because he is handing the SNP an easy to use weapon
final point is the UK is moving away from brexit and to rejoin quickly and strongly. He could be leading that move instead he is resisting it.
OK - I know I have laboured this point (sic) so won't go on about it again but I thought it interesting that Guardian article makes th esame point I have been making even if refusing as ever to blame Starmer
but he could be leading and moulding public opinion
Cool, and the right wing press and paid commentators on SM print days and days of stories about how "Starmer will rape your beautiful British Brexit with illegal woke Migrants" and all the other shite that it will do, and Sunak will stand at the despatch box and every question Starmer asks will be answered with "But you want to Steal the hard working families Brexit"
No thanks.
I get at face value what Starmer says you get that impression [that he is for Brexit] but a close reading it clearly interprets as something else, you're not daft, and you understand this, so what else is it that makes you not want to vote for him?
I understand exactly what he is doing. he is running scared of racists in those northern constituencies and he is gaslighting and lying about brexit He is unfortunately fighting against public opinion. I believe this will cost him a majority as labour will lose so many votes to pro EU parties. I also do not accept the magical and wishful thinking from many which is that he is not saying what he means. I am sure he means it with no CU. NO SM no FOM so therefore no significant raproachment with the EU
How come you guys think only the right can lead public opinion?
In todays grauniad
Data showed 58% would vote to re-enter bloc, while more respondents said they trusted the European Commission more than the UK government
I will never vote for a party of brexiteers which is what labour is. simple as that
he is running scared of racists in those northern constituencies and he is gaslighting and lying about brexit
You do know that Labour know who all the racists and idiots are and just say "No thanks I'd rather not have that vote, thanks, give it to the other side" right?
Has anyone else been keeping up with what Gina Miller has been up to?
Has formed a new party and has today come out and said "it's time to start moving towards rejoin"...
I get at face value what Starmer says you get that impression [that he is for Brexit] but a close reading it clearly interprets as something else
Ah yes, the 'he's saying one thing but he actually means something else' argument for Starmer.
You do realise that once you've voted for him and it turns out he meant exactly what he said you will have absolutely no right to complain?
You are the dictionary definition of wishful thinking.
The point is TJ you know that successful politicians say the things that they're audience want to hear. You could listen to Starmer on the EU and decide that he's wholly for Brexit and the thing that you've waited for your whole life for, is safe in his hands. You can also listen to what Starmer is saying and conclude that he's starting the long journey* back to closer integration and perhaps re-admission. That's what wins elections in this country, you may wish it was something different, but t'aint.
* And it will be, I think
Are we all having the same cyclical argument with TJ's delusions?
If Starmer even mentions rejoining, which will have to involve 'UNLIMITED MIGRATION!!!!!' he snatches defeat from the jaws of victory and we've got 5 more years of the Tories
You may want to delude yourself that thats not what would happen but you'd be wrong, because the right wing press would go into hysterical racist, will of the people overdrive and the election would be fought on a single issue which labour would lose
You can also listen to what Starmer is saying and conclude that he’s starting the long journey* back to closer integration and perhaps re-admission.
It need not be a long journey and that is most certainly not what he is saying at all. sorry dude thats wishful thinking
I understand why he has taken that stance but II believe it a huge mistake and he has made it totally clear that he has no interesting in getting any closer to the EU or reversing brexit at all. Thinking otherwise is wishful thinking IMO
You are the dictionary definition of wishful thinking.
Voting is pretty much the definition of wishful thinking. It's what we've got. Overall I think that a Starmer Govt will in all likelihood be better for the folks who really need Govt to do better by them. That's my entire wish fulfilment dreams come true.
So Binners - only the right can influence public opinion? Even with both labour and the tories being enthusiastic brexiteers public opinion is moving away from brexit rapidly
I strongly believe and the polling and local elections show that this is going to cost Starmer a majority. He is going against public opinion. 58% want to rejoin - how much more could he add to that pushing at an open door rather than trying to hold it closed
Its Starmer and his supporters that are delusional old chap 🙂
and that is most certainly not what he is saying at all
The Guardian article that you triumphantly linked to this morning is a long winded version of what I just said. You've admitted that you understand that he's just being a politician by appealing to both sides, why then, keep up this monotone delusion?
Overall I think that a Starmer Govt will in all likelihood be better for the folks who really need Govt to do better by them. That’s my entire wish fulfilment dreams come true.
Better than the Tories? Sure, why not. Difficult to be much worse.
Very much better? Not a chance. Tory-lite at best.
And all you're doing by voting Labour is continuing the cycle. You are voting not just to shaft people for the next 5 years but you're voting to shaft people for the next 50 years.
Vote Labour if it means that much to you, but don't try to pretend it's going to make one bit of difference in the long run. And probably not much difference in the short term either.
Because he is NOT appealing to both sides. Sure some folk may want to believe he is but he has made it 100% clear No CU, no SM no FOM thus no rapproachment with the EU thus making any recovery much harder
Its not a monotone delusion - its refusing to be taken in and refusing to engage in wishful thinking. His position is clear
I understand why he is doing it but I am certain its wrong
So Binners – only the right can influence public opinion?
Who owns most of the press?
Is starmer going to run trips to the Titanic but there won't be fatalities because he will ask the sea to be nice to the submarine.
but don’t try to pretend it’s going to make one bit of difference in the long run.
Where have I said that I think it will? Labour Govts are historically generally better at the sorts of social policies that, for the folks that need it to be; broadly speaking make life more tolerable. That's my political philosophy in a sentence. I long ago gave up up any hope that our politicians could manage better than that. Revolution (see Brexit) mostly doesn't make things better.
I strongly believe and the polling and local elections show that this is going to cost Starmer a majority
In that case, can I propose our usual pastry-based wager? 😃
I understand why he is doing it but I am certain its wrong
Oh OK, so if it's not your perfect Socialist European model, then reject it out of hand? If Labour isn't the perfect solution to your particular issues, then it's beyond the Pale?
I will buy you a slap up Greggs supper if by the end of Labour's next term that we don't have closer economic ties to the EU.
Labour Govts are historically generally better at the sorts of social policies that, for the folks that need it to be; broadly speaking make life more tolerable. That’s my political philosophy in a sentence.
Your philosophy is make things marginally less shit?
Would voting reform be considered too revolutionary for your philosophy?
Many of the problems we've experienced this century can be attributed to the UK's voting system which encourages parties to pander to a tiny percentage of the population.
Sorry, but my philosophy is to make things better in a way that is going to result in lasting change.