+1 And why aren't the lib dems forcefully pushing that agenda now?
It’s too soon. Whilst the dynamic has shifted against Brexit, this isn’t the same as a case to rejoin. I don’t think we’ll see that case until there’s a super majority in the polls.
Besides, we need to fix the ship before we can set sail for somewhere new (old) and this is the priority of a majority of voters. Economy, healthcare, stable and effective government are the top three for most voters right now, not rehashing Brexit. Rejoining will only fix one of those and will exacerbate another.
Not the right time.
Answer: it’s not a popular policy
Apart from the fact the polls show it is. Starmers brexit stance is losing him votes and credibility. thats what the polls show. Rejoin is the key factor in fixing the UK.
Show the polls, TJ.
My last information from April 2023 said that fewer than 1 in 5 classed Brexit/Rejoin as an election deciding issue. It may be costing him some votes, but I'd wager it's not a lot.
I'd actually state that the one of the biggest reasons for rejoining is to stop/delay Indyref2, but that would be at the 2030 election, not 2024/25.
tjagain
Full Member
Answer: it’s not a popular policyApart from the fact the polls show it is. Starmers brexit stance is losing him votes and credibility. thats what the polls show. Rejoin is the key factor in fixing the UK.
I’m sure it’s been posted before but wouldn’t rejoining require adopting the Euro?
I doubt you’d get that through in my lifetime.
I’m sure it’s been posted before but wouldn’t rejoining require adopting the Euro?
I doubt you’d get that through in my lifetime.
Nice to have all the Greatest Hits from the Scottish independence thread in a new setting.
The answer to your question is Sweden.
Which is appropriate given the levels of Stockholm Syndrome in this thread.
TJ is right, opinion continues to move towards rejoin, although as chart shows that has flattened recently and may be on the way back down again - but
- it's still only just around 50% (some way short of the 66% that some moot that we need for a decision of this magnitude)
and I know that leaves out the don't knows, but at this point unless you feel strongly for something enough to say so, I tend to put you in the stay as we are bucket.
- i know this is without anyone of any electoral significance actively campaigning for it
which would have both positive and negative consequences, and past evidence suggests that the leave / stay out side would not be exactly scrupulous in that campaign. Until someone hands them a stick to beat us with, we don't know how effective they'd be at it.
- while general opinion is going that way, I'm yet to be convinced that in the relatively few battleground constituencies, the result would be mirrored.
- other polls like 'was it a mistake' or 'if it was 2016 again what would your vote be' is irrelevant now. I personally think it was a massive mistake but I don't now think reversing and going through all that again is the right decision. We need a change of government first and foremost, stabilise (nws all the other arguments about being Tory lite, etc.) and then rebuild closer ties. In that order.
i know this is without anyone of any electoral significance actively campaigning for it
apart from the SNP, Greens, Plaid, all of whom once the actual campaign gets underway will have to be given media space and will all be attacking labour as brexiteers
Don't forget the damaging consequences of the campaign process itself as well.
On labour as they get pinned on their brexiteer stance? 😉
You cannot not campaign on something the public want and is good for the country because you are scared of right wing media. Its fundamentally dishonest as is Starmers postion " make brexit work" is a lie and he must know it
For example - SNP motion being debated in the HOC today
After 12.45pm: MPs begin a debate on an SNP motion calling for the creation of a Commons cost of living committee to investigate what is driving up prices, how Brexit has contributed, and what the government should do in response.
Brexit has increased inflation and deceased growth. Unless its reversed then Starmer assuming he gets a majority which I doubt is starting off with one hand behind his back. He has stated he wants to renegotiate the withdrawal treaty and has been told no by the EU
Starmers brexit stance is losing him votes and credibility. thats what the polls show.
Labour: up massively in the polls, huge gains at real elections. SNP, Green, Plaid Cymru, Lib Dems: in the doldrums. TJ analysis: Starmer's Brexit position is costing Labour votes.
It may be costing your vote, and it may not be the policy that I'd like to see, but net votes are not being lost, no matter how many times you say it.
something the public want
Half the public - and not the half that'll sway the election result.
apart from the SNP, Greens, Plaid
I get SNP and Plaid are local parties, but the Greens are national. If rejoin is such a big thing that 'the public' want then why didn't they tear the major parties a new one in the recent local elections?
Sure it made 200 gains - from 500-odd to 700-odd. There were iirc 8500 seats contested. That's about 2.5% extra, where were 'the public'?
At the local elections pro rejoin parties - greens and lib dems made far greater gains than the labour party
Polls clearly show the labour vote is soft and is mainly an anti tory vote not a pro labour one and that they are very vulnerable on brexit. Labour have not increased their vote so much as the tory vote collapsed
No seats were contested in Scotland ( can't remember if it was in wales)
Labour are not on course for a majority - thats very much in the balance and once the GE campaign is underway then the pro rejoin parties will get fairer airtime
If labour would ditch the enthusiastic brexiteer stance and the gaslighting then IMO they would lose a few votes, gain a lot more and firm up their vote significantly - and the local election results and polling all show this
Starmer has said he wants and needs to win seats in Scotland - his brexiteer stance is not going to allow him to do this.
For the love of God please stop.
TJ is NEVER changing his mind or accepting anyone else's points. You might as well argue with a wall.
Same could be said of you molgrips - you willnot engage just shout down
why do you think the greens made such huge and unprecedented gains in the locals?
Why is the labour vote so soft?
Two questions for you
Apart from the fact the polls show it is.
Sure, but that doesn't mean that those people would vote for parties that promote it, or would specifically vote Labour to enact it. A poll saying Brexit is unpopular is one thing, but I can completely get why political parties do not want a do-over of the last 6/7 years in reverse.
For the love of God please stop.
Other threads are available.
It's not just TJ, by the way. There are plenty on this thread who will never change their minds or accept anyone else's points.
You just happen to disagree with TJ so you notice when he's being disagreeable.
why do you think the greens made such huge and unprecedented gains in the locals?
going from 500-700 odd. Out of 8500. Less than 2.5%.
Your definition of huge needs work.
Sure, but that doesn’t mean that those people would vote for parties that promote it,
They did in the locals. The % gain for greens and lib dems was much bigger than for labour. I believe thats due to their stance on brexit and polling agrees
I will ague my corner, give my reasoning and will engage with those who disagree.
Jonv - % gains in votes and seats. Its undeniable the greens made huge and unprecedented gains - something very difficult to do as a 4th largest party
Did you read the Chris Grey article?
It is deniable. I'm denying it.
Sure - they increased their vote substantially compared to their prior vote, but if I have 50p in my pocket and add another 20p, while I'm undeniably "40% richer than I was" I've still only got 70p
To answer other points - it was an ENG and NI local election year. So no SCO or W seats, but in some ways that make analysis easier, no decision between one of the national parties vs Green. If the public so want Rejoin, why did their ACTUAL seats won only increase by around 2-2.5%
I believe thats due to their stance on brexit and polling agrees
I think you'd be on dodgy ground if you tried to link local elections with national policies. People have and do vote for different candidates in local elections for all sorts of (often very) local issues.. I don't disagree the polls show that Brexit is becoming more and more unpopular, that's pretty much undeniable, what's debateable is whether national parties that have a chance of forming the next government campaigning on it would be successful. Labour have held a significant lead in the polls since last November all the while saying that they're not going to re-open the Brexit debate, and their numbers aren't decreasing as the population's unhappiness with Brexit is getting louder.
Fair point nickc
Jonv - many ways to look at the numbers but tories lost 1000ish seats, labour only gained half of them
Labour gained 20% extra seats from where they were, greens gained 50% extra seats
I cannot find vote %
to me this and the polling all show that labours brexiteer stance is costing them votes so that they look like possibly hung parliament / possible small majority. I think with a pro EU stance they would be making more gains and their vote would not be so soft.
I am also intensely frustrated by Starmers gaslighting on brexit and that given how public opinion is moving that if he supported rejoin he would isolate the tories further and make more gains. He is also throwing away a huge opportunity in Scotland given the state of the SNP but his brexiteer stance is going to give the SNP an easy get out of jail free card because make no mistake they will play on this
I’m sure it’s been posted before but wouldn’t rejoining require adopting the Euro?
I doubt you’d get that through in my lifetime.
Quite frankly for 99% of us, who GAS what currency we use, as long as it's the one we're 'paid in' that's really all that matters.
The % gain for greens and lib dems was much bigger than for labour. I believe thats due to their stance on brexit and polling agrees
You can't think of any other reasons for votes to shift besides Brexit?
I will ague my corner, give my reasoning and will engage with those who disagree.
You expect us to accept your analysis but you won't accept anyone else's, you mean.
NO Molgrips - I will argue my corner and listen to the counter arguments - see my response to nickc above
I don't expect you to accept my analysis but a respectful debate would be nice
It would yes. I am just ribbing you because you always say the same things over and over again 🙂
I'll stop now.
Personally I think Labour's recent announcement about scrapping universal childcare will do them more harm than their stance on Brexit
Jonv – many ways to look at the numbers but tories lost 1000ish seats, labour only gained half of them
Only half? Slackers, the lot of them 😂
Or look at it as the pro rejoin parties made as many gains in seats as labour did from a much lower base and a much larger % increase
lies damn lies and statistics
Jonv – many ways to look at the numbers but tories lost 1000ish seats, labour only gained half of them
Labour gained 20% extra seats from where they were, greens gained 50% extra seats
%'s mask absolutes - Labour gained 500-odd extra seats, despite a 'pro-brexit' stance that is costing them votes?
And the Greens gained 200-odd extra seats (agreed, a very good result for them from their low base) despite being the rejoin horse in this particular race.
I know there are other factors at play, including the anyone but Tory tactical vote - even the LDs gained twice as many seats as the Greens, and now have 3-4x the number overall that the Greens have, and no-one knows what the LDs stand for! But those absolute numbers (not % compared to base) don't tell me of a massive rush to pro-rejoin, and they don't tell me of people deserting LAB in their droves.
I think I can understand why some parties might be pro-EU while not currently campaigning to rejoin. Leaving the EU took several years and took up a lot of the government's and parliament's time, which distracted both from many other issues that required attention. I have no doubt that rejoining would do the same. Perhaps some people believe that it would be better to spend some time focusing on other issues before beginning the long slog to rejoining the EU?
I can also imagine that while there is public support for rejoining the EU, it might start slipping away when the news headlines start filling up with stories of the seemingly never-ending political and diplomatic battles that would follow, and frustration would grow about the amount of time and money being spent on it while other issues were being side-lined because of it. Some parties may not want to commit to that course of action until they're confident that public support is strong and resilient.
That said, Labour's current message does seem to be that they aren't even thinking about rejoining, even beyond the short term. Maybe that's because of temerity and a concern that sounding pro-EU is still going to cost them votes they need, rather than because they don't want to rejoin, but even then it's frustrating and disappointing.
Quite frankly for 99% of us, who GAS what currency we use, as long as it’s the one we’re ‘paid in’ that’s really all that matters
it’s probably more like 48% or less of us don’t GAS. Plenty will care outside of this echo chamber.
It’d be daft to think otherwise.
Quite frankly for 99% of us, who GAS what currency we use, as long as it’s the one we’re ‘paid in’ that’s really all that matters
You're joking aren't you?
Theres a significant element is this country (52% at the last count) that have never stopped moaning about using metric measurements instead of double-decker buses and football pitches, and bitching about why they can't pay for things in threepenny groats, shillings and chickens
instead of double-decker buses and football pitches
Well, if we do start to head back into the EU we can start a negotiation over whether the appropriate SI unit of "Very Large Things Indeed" should be measured in Wales or France
I thought it was "isle of Wights" which is rubbish as I have no idea its size.
ChrisL makes a good point. If a party commits to moving in that direction, they'd have to start doing it. And that would take up a huge amount of parliamentary time when there are really other things that need urgent attention right now. Long term, of course we'd be better off in the EU and a stronger economy will help us pay for what we need - we all know that - but the country is currently on fire, in terms of governance and that needs putting out. That will take at least a term.
Sadly I do think universal childcare would have given us a great start in putting those fires out.
I think I can understand why some parties might be pro-EU while not currently campaigning to rejoin
Yes. It isnt something which would make sense in the next five years. However there could be alignment short of full rejoin attempt and also just acknowledge that brexit has failed.
Look at the reasons why people voted out and explain why it was never going to solve most of them and how in many cases its got worse.
The pretending its all fine is a problem.
Well, under our previous 'deal' we retained sterling, had a right of veto and had a seat at all the tables to do with the future direction of the EU.
Now?
Blue passports.
👏
Or we could accept that many of the issue the UK faces cannot be solved without rejoin? hence rejoin is the top priority?
given what Starmer has said there is no significant steps that can be taken and the EU has also ruled out any renegotiation of the exit deal. thats the problem with his " make brexit work" - its impossible
That's a logical fallacy, though, TJ. EU re-entry is not THE top priority just because it touches a lot of other stuff. Housing, interest rates, education, healthcare, drugs, fraud - all areas with zero or little EU involvement, all massive concerns.
As an aside, there isn't really "rejoining" or "re-entry" to the EU. It is wildly unlikely that the EU would accept the UK back on its former terms. There is really only "joining for a second time".
I thought it was “isle of Wights” which is rubbish as I have no idea its size.
Maybe a Jersey (110 sq km, 45⅞ yokes) would be a suitably Anglo-continental unit?
Or we could accept that many of the issue the UK faces cannot be solved without rejoin?
The people who knew that it was madness to leave in 2016, know that now. Nothings changed.
The people who believed Boris and Farages 'Project Fear bollocks have still largely got their fingers in their ears going LA-LA-LA-I'M NOT LISTENING!!!
In the grand scheme of things its amazing how little the polling has changed, despite all the evidence of what utter folly this whole farce has been
I'm sure that on a personal level, every politician who's been in Westminster since 2016, bar the proper Berxit headbangers, is absolutely sick to the back teeth with it all, and have absolutely zero appetite for reopening the whole can of worms all over again, so that it once again becomes all-consuming and nothing else gets done
Or we could accept that many of the issue the UK faces cannot be solved without rejoin?
I dunno. There's money in the UK economy, it just needs redistributing and spending on the right things.
Leaving the EU took several years and took up a lot of the government’s and parliament’s time, which distracted both from many other issues that required attention. I have no doubt that rejoining would do the same.
Hmm... Since brexit 'got done', we've had nothing but drama and soap opera from parliament...
Very little governing actualy seems to be taking place. You know, That thing they get paid hefty amounts of money to do.
Brexit gives us a continuing and compounding economic hit. thats why rejoin needs to be a top priority because without rejoin attempting to do anything about these other issues is doing it with one hand tied behind our backs
Ignoring it is not going to work - brexit will remain an all consuming political issue until we are at least back in the CU and SM and the pro EU parties will continue to keep it in the forefront
We haven't even finished leaving yet - lots of damaging stuff still to be implemented like customs controls on incoming goods
Every day we are out more damage is done and its political cowardice to refuse to see this
Its not just the brexit ultras with their fingers in their ears - its most of both tory and labour
Every day we are out more damage is done and its political cowardice to refuse to see this
Seeing it is one thing (most people with anything between their ears can see that), rectifying the whole thing is another thing altogether
But we all know that your view is completely binary about this (dear god, you've told us enough times!) and everyone who doesn't 100% agree with your approach is immediately labelled by you as 'an enthusiastic Brexiteer'
The labour party, or whatever coalition gets in once this shower are booted out have got 14 years of decay, neglect, corruption and incompetence to try and deal with , of which Brexit is just one (admittedly large) part. They're going to have a lot to do, a limited timescale in which to do it, and they've probably factored in that probably the best approach to that would not be to immediately alienate half the population and start a re-run of the whole national fissure all over again
They also have to make a big impact in the 5 years they get.
So ignore the biggest thing that they can do to improve the economy and thus lives of the people of the UK? and BTW Binners - labour have become enthusiastic brexiteers - have you not listened to what they say on it? "make brexit work" my arse
Starmer is refusing any significant rapproachment with the EU
The Labour Party is not ignoring the cosmic disaster of Brexit. To say so is just making stuff up.
So ignore the biggest thing that they can do to improve the economy and thus lives of the people of the UK?
Cor, say that on the Kier Starmer thread and you're gonna get hoofed in the slats by crypto-monetarists who will accuse you of being a Tory stooge!
and BTW Binners – labour have become enthusiastic brexiteers
No, they haven't
And on that note I'm out, because on this matter, much as I love you, its quite like...
The Labour Party is not ignoring the cosmic disaster of Brexit. To say so is just making stuff up.
how do you work that out? I have not heard them calling out the disaster it has been and I have not heard them calling for anything significant in the way of rapprochement with the EU
No to CU, SM, FOM "make brexit work" is being enthusiastic brexiteers - remember we were told that even if we voted leave we would still be in the CU /SM
Instead we have Starmer over and over again refusing to do anything significant to move towards the EU and gaslighting the UK public
I’m just picturing the Tories rescuing themselves after a campaign where the main slogan was “KEEP Brexit Done.”
we were told that even if we voted leave we would still be in the CU /SM
Who said that? It was bollocks then and it's bollocks now.
Every day we are out more damage is done and its political cowardice to refuse to see this
I don't think that Labour aren't refusing to see it, just becasue they're not saying it in public doesn't mean jack. In fact I'm pretty sure they entirely understand it. It's also perfectly understandable for anyone to hold both that "Brexit is shit" and "We're going to have to live with it for the time being" as truths in their heads at the same time. Especially if you want to last more than one term and talk about nothing else but doing the same shit we've all just been through in reverse. If I was Starmer I'd not want this to define the next 5 years either. And even if the polls say that folks are increasingly unhappy with it, that doesn't mean they'll vote for another referendum, or that that'll vote to re-join in another referendum, or that they'll vote for Labour to hold a referendum.
You know full well why Labour aren't riding Dobbin the Re-joining Wonder-horse all the way to the door of No10, you're not daft.
we were told that even if we voted leave we would still be in the CU /SM
Yeah, but that was always 'cakist' bollocks, only believed by the gullible and hard-of-thinking (who apparently account for 52% of those that voted)
The rules of EU membership are simple, clear, unambiguous and non-negotiable
If you want to be part of the single market then that includes freedom of movement. No cherrypicking. You can't have one without the other. Them's the rules
Considering the amount of people in this country who completely lose their shit over a hundred people in a dinghy on a beach in Kent, you can forget rejoining the SM.
If Starmer even mentioned it in passing, every right wing tabloid would soil themselves in horrified indignant outrage and have headlines screaming LABOUR TO WELCOME IN UNLIMITED MASS IMMIGRATION!!!, the Tory's would weaponise that and all the thicko's, racists and half-wits would vote the Tory's back in.
You can delude yourself that that wouldn't be the case, but you'd be wrong
Oh I am sure it would be the case. doesn't change the fact its political cowardice from Starmer and I believe being principled and truthful on this would overall be a vote winner. You know - show some leadership and lead public opinion. Imagine the effect onpublic opinion to have the leader of labour doing this - its already moved hugely away from brexit while Starmer supports brexit.
He is being fundamentally dishonest
It’s also perfectly understandable for anyone to hold both that “Brexit is shit” and “We’re going to have to live with it for the time being”
But thats not Starmers position is it?
Its not what he's saying in public, no. But what he has said in public is up for interpretation. What he thinks or says in private, I've no idea, but I don't believe he thinks Brexit is a Wonder horse.
You know – show some leadership and lead public opinion.
I don't think he has to frankly, the public aren't stupid either, they can work it out for themselves, but I don't think the public want another 5-7 years of parliament arguing about it either. It's been shit, and nothing has got done becasue of it. I don't think the public are ready for the political bun fighting that re-join would provoke, no one has the appetite for it, and I'm pretty sure that not enough folks would vote for it (yet). I think Labour have also made that calculation. The EU would only have us back if there's an overwhelming majority supporting it, and it's the resolved position of both major parties to re-join. That will happen, but until it does, suck it up.
NO Molgrips – I will argue my corner and listen to the counter arguments
Some of them, anyway. 😉
Look, in the local elections, people voted for NOT Conservative and then on issues and councillors, little of national politics was considered beyond headlines. Many people do not like SKS and so voted for Green or LD rather than Labour or Conservative. These, more than Brexit were the issues. I know this as I went door to door with the LD and this was what I heard from real people, not polls or the internet.
WRT national politics, and I'm stating this for the second time today, Brexit is not the issue, it's not even in the top 3. Money/economy/costofliving is #1. Health and Social care is #2. Governance is #3. People just want to see government working for them - this actually covers 1, 2 and 3. I'd honestly place climate change above Brexit at the moment, but maybe that's observer bias from my direct interactions with people on the doorstep.
Migration was still in the top ten, as was Brexit, but migration was mixed between those that saw it as bad and those that found they were no longer able to find skilled help to do things and thus saw the lack of it as bad. Building, gardening, handyman things they used to be able to get done, they no longer can or it takes months to find someone.
Imagine the effect onpublic opinion to have the leader of labour doing this
We've already covered this. Just to recap...
If Starmer even mentioned it in passing, every right wing tabloid would soil themselves in horrified indignant outrage and have headlines screaming LABOUR TO WELCOME IN UNLIMITED MASS IMMIGRATION!!!, the Tory’s would weaponise that and all the thicko’s, racists and half-wits would vote the Tory’s back in.
So we'd have another 5 years of the Tory's (which would make rejoining ever happening even less likely), but that would be fine because he lost heroically and honestly and thats what matters
Imagine the effect onpublic opinion to have the leader of labour doing this
I’m sure it’s been posted before but wouldn’t rejoining require adopting the Euro?
I doubt you’d get that through in my lifetime.
Which I think is the new game,natural wastage of the true believers(of Brexit) 🙂
Why waste time when time wastes them, go in then with rejoin when the numbers are more in your favour.
So ignore the biggest thing that they can do to improve the economy and thus lives of the people of the UK?
It's not the biggest thing. It's not like if we went back tomorrow food bank usage would disappear, is it?
The UK has a string of problems caused by shit government since 2010, this is only one.
I’m sure it’s been posted before but wouldn’t rejoining require adopting the Euro?
I doubt you’d get that through in my lifetime.
No, it wouldn't.
Although it would be worth doing not for any economic reason, but just to ram home the point that Brexit is a cesspit of failure.
yes but the year on year compounding economic hit impoverishes the UK. Brexit increases inflation, has wrecked our export economy and decreased growth.
Hence rejoin is the keystone to get the better economic situation needed to solve the other issues. Not insoluble without rejoin but much harder
Can I make a suggestion Uncle Jezza?
You might want to pop over and take this particular argument to the absolute nutters good people on this thread. You'll fit right in....
[img] 
[/img]
😉
I think one of the issues here is living in Scotland that is much more pro EU and has political leaders that call out brexit as the disaster it is alters the view. In England ( dunno about wales) you do not have political leaders doing this. In Scotland we have pro EU parties to vote for
I know a bunch of folk who were all ( like me) impressed with Starmer at the beginning and thinking of voting labour. Due to his brexiteer stance all have changed their mind. I will not vote for a party that supports Brexit. thats a red line for me
Anyway - round and round we go. I should have continued to keep out of it
I believe being principled and truthful on this would overall be a vote winner.
The polar opposite was true back in 2016 when that accursed referendum happened - which is how we got into this mess in the first place.
Look, if Starmer's advisors are telling him that he has to pretend to be thick by keeping up the pretence that Brexit can be made to work, then fine. If their strategy and command of the numbers is on point, then great.
They've lost my vote - I can't vote for someone of Starmer's intellect and experience pretending to be a dunce. But, according to whoever is advising Starmer, my vote doesn’t matter anyway. So I can vote with a clear conscience and still get rid of the Tories. 👍
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is politics. 🤷♂️
Again - Fix the ship before setting sail. Labour need to get elected first, then they can change course.
Reversing Brexit isn't going to get them into power, or it will, but with less majority than they need to affect change.
If I read Labour's "Make Brexit Work" 5 step statement, it's very much pro-European:
- Sort on NI - This can be sorted quickly by alignment with EU rules, even over time.
- Remove unnecessary trade barriers - the easiest and best way to do this is to align with Europe, which will further the cause for rejoining later as it'll be almost seamless.
- Align qualifications and funding mechanisms for industry and research - again, alignment.
- Strengthen co-operation with our allies to provide security...so alignment.
- Regulation, Investment and funding. Use our ability outside of the EU to change regulation to suit British needs...this doesn't say that the needs of Britain are different to those of Europe...If they're not, our regulation could again align to provide access to European goods on better terms, driving down costs and enabling access. I sense alignment.
Literally nothing in there is actually about Brexit, it's about making the UK work better. All of these things could be sold as making Brexit work whilst smoothing the path for rejoining. In 5 years, if the economy is working they can hail the plan, the trade, the growth, the contentment and say "look, you're practically European, what was all this Brexit bollocks about?"
Again - you cannot fix the ship properly without reversing brexit. Its the key thing. The continuing and compounding economic hit from brexit makes it harder
None of those 5 things will make any significant differnce
I cannot vote for a party that supports brexit - nor will many others. Its a red line
Then you're a fool as you're reading the words, not the meaning and will likely end up with a poorer lot as a result.
Blind faith to an ideal without acknowledgement of the practicalities paints you with the same brush as those you abhor - Brexiteers.
Or your the fool as you are reading into them things that are not there? 😉
How on earth can they compensate for the huge hit to exports? to the loss of financial services? Only rejoining the CU and SM can get rid of trade barriers - and also the EU have made it clear the withdrawal agreement is not going to be renegotiated
Wishful thinking is no substitute for concrete action
Daffy
Full MemberMy last information from April 2023 said that fewer than 1 in 5 classed Brexit/Rejoin as an election deciding issue. It may be costing him some votes, but I’d wager it’s not a lot.
It's not so simple though. Question is, how many of the 1/5 are brexit supporters that might vote Tory or Labour, with them both taking a similar brexit stance. And how many of the anti-brexit people are pushed away? On average- and this is very crude- brexiteers are still more likely to be tories and the more intense you are about it, the more likely. A tory brexiteer won't become a Labour brexiteer just because Labour are brexiteers or vice versa. Meanwhile a naturally Labour returner, or even pissed off remainer, could definitely be put off, and move to another party or just won't vote. So it's entirely possible that Labour and the Tories could take identical brexit stances and that the Tories are the winners from that.
I don't know how it breaks- but I bet it's not as simple as it looks. I'll be looking very carefully at the electoral maths close to the election but man, I really hope I don't have to think about tactically voting Labour. I hope I'd be pragmatic and do it but I really, really don't want to. And I'm not a beautiful and unique snowflake or especially dogmatic so if that's where I am, I guarantee there are people who're raging about brexit and now raging at Labour who will vote SNP or Lib Dem or Green or Plaid or just not vote.
I think basically there's a huge amount of this that is complicated but that people are pretending is simple. On all levels up to and including party leaders. I don't think anyone that thinks it's not, should be making decisions with any more political impact than how they personally vote, but that's by the by.
jamesoz
Full MemberI’m sure it’s been posted before but wouldn’t rejoining require adopting the Euro?
Nope, it's a classic anti-EU myth but also a classic EU fudge. You're required to commit to joining the euro and... that's it. There's no mechanism to force you or even encourage you. And in practice, it's extremely simple to just make sure you don't meet the criteria and not be allowed to join the euro, while pretending you want to. That was the traditional approach, but in practice more recently the EU have just said "meh, don't do it if you don't want to" and that it's an individual nation's choice, just to accept the actual reality
I'm not very convinced that the UK would meet the euro criteria now tbf. Brucewee was a bit rude about it but he's right that this is a scottish indyref unsinkable rubber duck so it's an argument we've seen played out for years, we've been told endlessly that Scotland would have to take the euro. In practice, iScotland wouldn't be allowed to, not for a while. And if the independence movement ever says "Yeah, our plan now is to take the euro" then everyone that used to say we'd have to, would instantly pivot to saying that we wouldn't be allowed to. The same I'm sure would apply to the UK rejoining.