You do know that Labour were offering a referendum on EU membership at the last election, yes?
Which fell a long way short of opposition to the Tory policy of get Brexit done. Every time I saw a Labour politician it was like reading Dazh on here. Gotta respect the vote. It didn't ring sincere given the Labour eagerness to triger Art. 50.
HURRAH FOR BREXIT!
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You do know that Labour were offering a referendum on EU membership at the last election, yes?
From the day of the referendum result when Grandad called for article 50 to be triggered immediately, right the way up to us leaving the EU the policy of the labour party (if you could actually call it a policy with a straight face) was a total and utter *ing shambles. That stupid, beardy, old Brexiteer * has got a lot to answer for.
Voters got caught up in the not wasting your vote rubbish because as we discussed at the time, people need to vote with their convictions and not tactically because given the that one vote counts for nothing voting tactically is stupid.
I live in an ultra-marginal seat (present majority: 102 votes) which regularly changes hands between the 2 main parties. If I voted for the Lib Dems, I might as well vote Tory. A totally wasted vote
Not disagreeing Binners, just a reminder that those that voted Labour at the last election did so against a “don’t know what we want, but we’ll give you a referendum on it” platform. And that most seats are a two horse race… that a smaller party has policies on any particular matter is irrelevant if you want you vote to influence who your seat sends to parliament.
Just a thought as i think most agree that the current government is not fit for purpose....
However it is safe to also say that the electorate is not fit for purpose?
Are the electorate of sound mind and body? Are they fit to make decisions on behalf of others? Evidence suggests not (think Brexit, Trump, Covid compliance)
Good argument that democracy is working just that maybe its not producing ythe best outcomes for its electorates?
Said it before but i continue to be impressed by the level of Lemming like behaviour of the majority of the great unwashed (fully paid up member i might add)
Brexit 2020+
Just saying.
However it is safe to also say that the electorate is not fit for purpose?
Been saying that for ages. That's why we need political and media education.
That’s why we need education
Here's a Brexit good news film!
I watched the first 5 seconds and decided it's all about how Germany has "caved in" because it cant sell any cars here or something and so are making barrier controls that go up and down faster to free up the bananas and Cheshire cheese, etc, etc.
It's in foren, though, and Google seems to mistranslate the title as "Hard Brexit - The coup of the rich elite".
I feel like the UK could be totally transformed for the better if we got rid of the First Past The Post voting system and replaced it with proper Proportional Representation. Voters would be more free to vote on policy, and a wider range of views could be represented. Unfortunately it's not in the interests of those in power to meaningfully reform the electoral system. Pretty sure we would have avoided Brexit too.
Molgrips i think its political and media re-education camps we need...
Probably be able to subcontract it to some Chinese fellas..... apparently they are happy to deliver it in other countries.
More seriously as i said back up the thread i am not sure "thinking" folks actually understand just how big that education gap actually is in certain communities. I have family who watch no TV news, no online news, read no papers, dont own a book, and have a reading age of 9. They live only in a facebook bubble and talk in accents and use words that people only understand within 10 miles.
Its completely ****ed and i dont think it will ever be fixed.
I got bollocked on here by the mods (rightly so) for using a term in reference to these people - they are my family but they are so far adrift of what constitutes a productive human being it is beyond sad. The current generation of my family in that community is almost unemployable. Education in respect to politics, economics and media is like trying to teach them to speak Chinese.
plenty of people at the FCO were giving similar advice, with the experience and knowledge to know just how the EU works, how they do deals, and the decisions the UK needed to make (but avoided) before attempting a deal
Anecdotal, not factual.
Even if some civil servants had some understanding of how the EU do trade deals that was of limited/no use unless they had been part of EU negotiating teams; it's a bit like saying that I can build a car engine because I know how it works - that's patently absurd.
That’s why we need education
We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
I listened to the new episode of "The Bunker" podcast yesterday with Nick Cohen (observer) and its a damning review of where England is heading,
https://twitter.com/bunker_pod/status/1353266288676769793?s=20
that was of limited/no use unless they had been part of EU negotiating teams
Agreed. That is why I said what I said.
dismissed, sidelined and neutered
The civil service were up to the job. Anyone who made it clear what the negotiations required was pushed aside, or out.
More seriously as i said back up the thread i am not sure “thinking” folks actually understand just how big that education gap actually is in certain communities.
It's not so much the amount of education as people's attitudes towards education, knowledge and the ability to think rationally. Someone on our local FB page asked which direction to start walking to get to a local castle, it's about 3 miles away and across fields and stuff. I asked if she had a map - no. I mean, what? Generally wandering in the rough direction isn't going to get you anywhere other than lost.
That’s why we need education
Education in general isn't enough, as we can see by the fact that we all get 11 years of it as kids and we're still in this mess. We need to show people how to engage in society and how to think about what they see and hear.
Education in respect to politics, economics and media is like trying to teach them to speak Chinese.
It doesn't have to be. Most people have a gripe about their lives - start there. I'm not talking about GCSE curricula here. Call it 'citizenship' or something if that helps.
I watched the first 5 seconds and decided it’s all about how Germany has “caved in” because it cant sell any cars here or something
It's about nothing of the sort, it's about how a few super-rich financed Brexit and have hi-jacked it to their own ends. That's four minutes in, I'll keep watching only another 40"
Edit: by 13" in we've covered the donors , the desire to create an off-shore tax haven, a desire to be free of food standards and workers rights, now it's going into how that was achieved and the role of lobby companies (who refused to speak to WDR)
Continuing the WDR report it goes into the reasoning between hard Brexit and the EU insistance of a level playing field in any Brexit deal.
Then about Schenker (sp,) from Oxford and Mogg and how a hard Brexit would be beneficial with a neo-liberal neo-liberated UK. And the journalists try to contact the people who financed the research and the lobby groups behind it. The way people financed think tanks in order to secretly finance pro-Brexit research groups. There's a problem with transparency in UK politics because the people financing remain secret.
Then the Good Friday Agreement and the Brexit threat to it. Schenker Singhmm (sp?) was sent to NI. The ERG just dimissed the Irish border problem. Now into attacks on May's government to get a harder Brexit.
Now into the Brexit party and its 10 million secret funding. It was easy for the Brexit Party to formulate policy because as Richard Tice says , it was just him and Farrage doing it, and they ripped the Conservative party to bits.
And in the end Johnson signed a hard Brexit, and it'll just bring hardship and poverty. But the fight will go on and we'll see how a few rich Etonians have changed the UK in the coming years.
Verdict: It's what the BBC should be showing.
Molgrips with all due respect and i have read your posts for many years and know you speak much sense but if you think these people are even remotely interested in Citizenship let alone reading/listening to "stuff" let alone grasping it... you need to get out more.
Above with all due respect to you.
What we need is a electoral system fit for the 21st century not the 19th - voter engagement and education will follow
Certainly in Scotland the rather complex forms of PR ( sort of) used has forced the electorate to become more sophisticated " 2nd vote green" etc there is now a greater tendency to vote strategically. Of course not everyone does so but the tendency is there
Pretty sure we have PR in N.Ireland, not sure I would call it a very good system either.
PR, first past the post, will make no difference once NI and Scotland have jogged off.
Engerland for the Engerlish... i shall have to find somewhere else to live.
NI has a mandatory coalition. It's difficult... but alternatives were, er, problematic. STV to select members is highly preferable to FPTP... stating you preferences makes more sense to me than people never voting for their first preference because they want to stop their least preferable candidate and are scared of wasting their vote.
It looks like credit card fees are going up
It looks like credit card fees are going up
“Some people might put this change down to Brexit, but it is actually just greed,” Joel Gladwin, of the Coalition for a Digital Economy, told the FT.
Someone needs to smell the coffee.
they're putting fees up because they can, and that change is down to brexit
Everyday is new day of fu##wittery trying to trade with the EU (and vice versa) now. We've now got local customs officals all over Europe (and the UK) who can't agree what they should be doing, and then realising there is a system that sould have been turned on 3 weeks ago to deal with imports - hauliers flatly refusing to travel to the UK whcih affects all backloads. Freight rates sky rocketing as those vehciles you do book, now have to travel to different ports than normal.
If we had agreed on either a proper deal, or hard brexit, we would have been in a better position than we are now! Hard brexit would at least allowed trade on known procedures, as it is it's a bastardisaiton of everything you can possibly imagine. HMRC are being utterly useless at the moment, having withdrawn various approvals becasue they were linked to EU systems, and then not tell anyone untill it was too late. I've spoken to a number of large organisations who are frnakly making up as hey go along as the requiremtns seem to change daily..
this current gov have completely stuffed us - and im normally a conservative..
if you think these people are even remotely interested in Citizenship let alone reading/listening to “stuff” let alone grasping it… you need to get out more.
I know of people such as you describe. People are hard-wired to learn, it's all about how you frame the subject. I know this because of how much I get out 🙂
But this is a digression.
PR, first past the post, will make no difference once NI and Scotland have jogged off.
Engerland for the Engerlish… i shall have to find somewhere else to live.
And the Welsh forgotten as usual 🙂
HMRC are being utterly useless at the moment, having withdrawn various approvals becasue they were linked to EU systems, and then not tell anyone untill it was too late.
I can assure you that government **** wittery left HMRC in the dark to the last minute as well, apart from giving them a hospital pass at the end
This is the government that gave the Chief Exec of HMRC 30 minutes warning that they were about to announce the furlough and other schemes that they would have to create and bring in
Yup.
And I used to bang on about the systems involved not being up to the job, or even completed in time, years ago in the old thread… but politicians know better, don’t they. Led by donkeys. Anyway, to save me doing it all again, read this Twitter thread instead…
https://twitter.com/daniellambert29/status/1352891014852304896?s=21
Hard brexit would at least allowed trade on known procedures
Nope. Procedures for UK:EU trade would not have suddenly been made a clear, stable and known thing by not signing a trade deal with the EU. Quite the opposite. People like to claim it would be simpler, on the assumption that trading with the EU in a no deal scenario would be just like trading with, say, the USA… it would not be.
This is hard Brexit.
Molgrips not sure about hardwired to learn,i can put you in a room with these folks and you would do well to catch one word in three but they will understand you.
Your window of "learning" is less than a minute then they start taking the piss. None of them really attended secondary education maybe a day or so a week.
They dont give a * .... i mean they really dont as no one can actually take anything away from them? They wont get sent to prison they will always get their benefits, the roof over their heads is Mums or Grans or Aunties and their Dad *ed off years ago and they have enough disposable income to get battered 7 nights a week. Whats not to like and who are we to tell them different.
kelvin
Full Member
Hard brexit would at least allowed trade on known proceduresNope. Procedures for UK:EU trade would not have suddenly been made a clear, stable and known thing by not signing a trade deal with the EU. Quite the opposite. People like to claim it would be simpler, on the assumption that trading with the EU in a no deal scenario would be just like trading with, say, the USA… it would not be.
this is factually not correct. There are well defined procedures for dealing under WTO terms and acting as true 3rd country traders, as it is all of those normal rules went out of the window with the TCA. I along with a lot of people worked on the basis of hard brexit as it covered what we beleived to be the worst case scenario, including registering for a number of procedures/formalities, only for the TCA to tear all of that and put in place a process that no-one understands.
Don't get me wrong, not leaving in the first place would have been better with this shiv show in charge..
There are well defined procedures for dealing under WTO terms and acting as true 3rd country traders
They vary with every country. Countries can set their own rules and have their own procedures. WTO isn’t as universal as you suggest. Try selling into the UK from a country that is WTO only (if you can find one), it will be different to selling to another area from that same country. People overstate what WTO is. It is not a fixed set of rules and procedures for business to trade. It is somewhere for countries to complain when other countries are treating them unfairly.
EDIT: sorry, I’ve gone of on one there… yes, it was clear how third countries trade with the EU when using WTO only. Until they changed their MVN rules to deal with us… which they would… but would also have to apply those changes to any other country using WTO only. They’re changing the rules in April and July this year as it is.
None of them really attended secondary education maybe a day or so a week.
You misunderstand, I'm not talking about formal education. Ask them about football or something. People will always learn about what concerns or interests them. So start by asking people what their problems are - most people will be able to start a conversation that way.
Again, I'm not suggesting we simply create another dull school subject. Education is broader than that. But it probably is beyond the wit of the people in charge of the UK since most things appear to be.
Agreed, social engagement and ownership rather than formal political education.
If something was taught in schools then it should probably be more about the rights and responsibilities of citizenship (and why you need both).
Again, I’m not suggesting we simply create another dull school subject. Education is broader than that. But it probably is beyond the wit of the people in charge of the UK since most things appear to be.
Yes, it seems its more important to know what a fronted adverbial is than the best ways to live your life in the 21st century.
They dont give a * …. i mean they really dont as no one can actually take anything away from them? They wont get sent to prison they will always get their benefits, the roof over their heads is Mums or Grans or Aunties and their Dad *ed off years ago and they have enough disposable income to get battered 7 nights a week. Whats not to like and who are we to tell them different.
I do wonder sometimes. I'm stressed about future economic impacts, whether European Research grants will be allowed in future, whether it'll be easier or harder to travel for work or leisure, whether we're still an attractive destination for people to come and work....
and I look at my dog that has been fed, been for a quick walk, and is presently staring out of the back window thinking about cats probably. Later, she'll have a long sleep with all legs in the air, another walk, maybe chase her tail round for a bit, get fed again, and then sleep with her legs in the air while her family fuss over her.
I'm not sure evolution isn't working backwards......
If something was taught in schools then it should probably be more about the rights and responsibilities of citizenship (and why you need both).
There was this thing called Erasmus+, one of the aims of which was about 'good' citizenship and stronger ties. Living it, not forcing dull information through instructional teaching.
There was this thing called Erasmus+, one of the aims of which was about ‘good’ citizenship and stronger ties. Living it, not forcing dull information through instructional teaching.
I went to a grammar school then on to Uni and I had never heard of Erasmus+ until I started looking on here. Couldn't name one person I know who has benefited from it. Not saying its not a good thing or anything just that it doesn't seem that important to most people. Only 1% of the EU student population even uses it.
Every time I saw a Labour politician it was like reading Dazh on here. Gotta respect the vote.
And given the evidence of the 2019 election result I was proven exactly right. Politicians ignore the people at their peril, and what happened to labour was stark proof of that. And all they were offering was a second vote which would have almost certainly returned the same result. Can you imagine what would have happened had they just ignored it like you suggest?
That stupid, beardy, old Brexiteer **** has got a lot to answer for.
FFS man get over it. I know it's very easy for you to blame everything on Corbyn the pantomime villain but it's total bollocks. If anything the 2019 election (as above) proved that his instincts were correct (as they were on many things). It wouldn't have changed the result, but had he stuck to his guns I'm pretty suree Boris's majority would have been significantly smaller had he not allowed himself to be swayed by Starmer and McDonnell.
I went to a secondary mod' and Mr Hughes explained what joining the EU meant to us kids, you can live and work anywhere in Europe (shortly after he got pissed off with teaching thuggy kids and got a job stacking shelves in the local supermarket). I didn't forget and used that information to make a great life. Junior was born in France, got a French Bac, German Abitur and did Erasmus at the Humbolt in Berlin. Ironically he studied Brexit at Science Po, Paris. All that because Mr Hughes was so excited about Britain having joined the Common Market.
You would perhaps miss what you've lost if you'd taken the opportunities you had, Dougie. And depriving others of them is unfair.