There is no minimising ( other than very marginal ways that will make no real difference) the damage of brexit without joining the CU and SM
I'm not sure that is true. If you agreed on total alignment of standards, I bet you could get pretty close to the benefits of the CU and SM without actually signing up.
Anyway, are you going to answer my question?
Edit: Ok, you sort of did. How long is that going to take? What if it takes more than 5 years (not that unlikely)? How patient will the electorate be? What if the Tories get back in? We aren't arguing over the principles here, we would all like to see us rejoin. It's the practical politics of it we're disagreeing about, and I think you are being hopelessly unrealistic, quite apart from making it more likely that Starmer will never even get elected. Labour cannot afford the kind of schism that you are promoting. If you and others like you let the Tories in again you will have some serious shit on your conscience.
I bet you could get pretty close to the benefits of the CU and SM without actually signing up.
NOpe not in the slightest The 4 freedoms are inseparable. the hard border would have to remain, freedom of movement cannot be had, etc etc
Question answered above.
I’d love TJs immediate jump back in
So would I. But the whole reason why I campaigned for a “measure twice cut once” second referendum was because there is no quick “undo” button.
It's also a case of regulatory allignment. The Swiss check their own laws for EU compliance as and when EU laws are passed, and sometimes let the EU law overide their own law. If he wants to keep the EU door open for a Swiss type deal he needs to be very vocally opposing the burning up of EU legislation and explaining why. I Googled "Starmer retained EU legislation" and found no quotes concerning those three words in the first page of results.
Rejoin. Its not rocket science!
It bloody is. Have you seen how hard it's been to come out of it? Now add a section of the EU that will make it hard for us, just because.
And I'm not convinced that going cap in hand and accepting all the terms is a vote winner. There were good reasons we didn't adopt the Euro, aiming for which is a condition of entry
Now add a section of the EU that will make it hard for us, just because.
Nope, Britain will make it hard by wanting cake as usual. The Eu will just want Britain to accept the same conditons as other countries with the same level allignment and integration.
Those of you saying rejoining (in some form) will "take too long" - too long compared to what?
Staying out will take forever, it will never end, it will go on and on as an open sore.
I don't expect to waltz back into the EU/SM/CU in the next few weeks or months. Of course. But denying that this is the only viable long-term future which does not cause ongoing harm for ever and ever into the future is just stupid. This is what Starmer is trying to sell us, and I'm not buying. The longer he persists with this lie, the worse the problem, the bigger the costs.
This is what Starmer is trying to sell us,
No it isn't. His current position is that pursuing rejoin now would do more damage for two reasons: it's a distraction from our other problems, and it would cause a prolonged period of uncertainty and chaos which is bad for investment and bad for business. Both of those are obviously true. His stated aim is a 'better' trading relationship, and he hasn't put a limit on that. It may be that the pursuit of 'better' eventually leads to us rejoining, it may not. But going straight for 'rejoin' is politically impossible. As I said above, I have reluctantly come to agree with this. Your "Rejoin. It's not rocket science" is laughably naive and not even an answer to my question. I was asking what he should do; what actual steps should he take. An actual executable plan.
"better" is a lie because there is no significantly better ( ok just misleading statement for the pedantic)
No Economic case for rejoin is an outright lie
Piolitical impossibility is only because he has made it so
One wheel - I have answered you. Go straight to the EU " we want to rejoin" and accept all the well known conditions. thats the only sensible route
How about if "rejoin" is "Swiss/Norway deal" ? The UK might even get away with not joining Shengen as part of the deal so as to respect the Good Friday Agreement - no border in Ireland.
I'd be interested to know if other rejoiners would be satisfied with a Swiss/Norway deal as an initial objective that can quickly be implemented, STW poll ?
So long as we are in the CU, SM and the 4 freedoms apply I have no issue
I have no interest in listening to Starmer lying.
So you won't hear the other side of the argument you're trying to make? Your argument is in tatters you might as well give up.
I value Starmer's analysis over yours - sorry.
He is obviously lying.
"No economic case" is a clear lie
"Make brexit work" is a clear lie
"better relationship" without CU and SM - at best misleading as there is nothing that would be significantly better.
I have heard his lies multiple times. Whats the point in listening to them again? He is now a brexiteer and labour is a brexiteer party.
One wheel- so what is your executable plan for making brexit work then that will actually make a real difference? two can play at that game 🙂 remember Starmer has ruled out the 4 freedoms, CU and SM
so how can he "make brexit work" ?
I actually don't really care what the now little englander centre right labour party do
the only thing I am interested in is Scottish idependence
Labour and tory. two cheeks of the same arse. Pro brexit, anti immigration, anti democratic, pro austerity, pro privitisation. Neither give me any hope for the future 0of the UK
Blablabla.
I have heard his lies multiple times. Whats the point in listening to them again?
I dunno, you seem intent on making us listen to you say the same thing over and over again so I assumed you must think there's value in it 😉
I said I wouldn't engage any more and yet here we are a week later with people still dug in further to their positions.
I think many of us wish this could be magicked away, it can't. We can't go back to the way things where; the cat's out of the bag and we have to take the beating now.
The nuclear option of going begging and willing to accede to every joining option just isn't going to happen, for many reasons which I know TJ won't accept. Politics, economics, handing the RW press a stick to hit labour with, risk of alienating the voters that will decide the marginal seats.....
TJ you're wasting your time in hoping for it. You have to accept it won't happen, and now to concentrate on things that might. Or you'll be here in a week, a month and a year from now for all the effect it'll have.
Uncle Jezza, much as I love you, you don’t half talk some nonsense
If you think that the Labour Party under Starmer is in any way comparable to this shower of useless, corrupt ****s we presently have in government then you’re out of your mind
Rejoining the EU is simply not going to happen any time soon, if ever. Pointing this uncomfortable reality out doesn’t make me, Starmer or anyone else a Brexiteer.
We need to dial down the ridiculous anti-EU rhetoric that is causing so much damage and get a government in power that values a decent constructive relationship with our neighbours, instead of being openly antagonistic and confrontational for the sake of pacifying the unhinged lunatics in its own ranks
Right now, I’m afraid that’s the best we can hope for. And once some burned bridges have been rebuilt, we can hopefully move forward from there
I hope for it (rejoining), fervently, I will be dancing in the streets with blue body paint and gold stars painted on my arse when it happens; but I can appreciate it will take 20 years. I'm not expecting Starmer to make rejoin official party policy because it's just not politically possible right now. It simply won't work. A party leader can't just make everyone do what they want, that's not even how leadership should work.
Or to put it another way, you can only play the hand you're dealt.
The right thing to do is ease the current problems as much as we can in the short term, then gradually creep closer with things like regulatory alignment and participation in the various programmes. We will end up more like Switzerland and then Norway, but that will take many many years. It's not happening at the next election, be realistic.
EDIT also well put Binners.
I said I wouldn’t engage any more and yet here we are a week later with people still dug in further to their positions.
I said the same to to myself 🙂
Molgrips - I have to listen to folk justifying Starmers lies 🙂
No one can tell me how there is going to be any significant change or rapprochement with the brexiteer position Starmer has taken. He claims that he will make brexit work while ruing out categorically all the things he needs to do
Can anyone explain how he can?
I have to listen to folk justifying Starmers lies
Calling them 'lies' is puerile, you sound like chewkw only taking yourself more seriously.
Can anyone explain how he can?
You aren't listening to us in the slightest. I've already explained what I think he is up to, just go back and read.
Binners - from where I sit its " would you like your shit sandwich on brown or white bread? Its still a shit sandwich
would you like your shit sandwich on brown or white bread? Its still a shit sandwich
Yes, we are facing a shit sandwich, and this is the Tories' fault. No question there. The problem here is that you think Starmer can make it all go away if he would just say the words. He can't.
Molgrips - they are lies. " no economic case to rejoin" is an outright lie as is "make brexit work" neither has any truth to it
You have explained what you think he is up to. I understand that. I think he has chosen the wrong path
No one has explained how he can make brexit work. As in get back all that lost trade, as in a recovery for all the businesses ruined by it, as in recover all the lost taxes, as in recover all the lost growth etc etc
I value Starmer’s analysis over yours – sorry.
Starmer's analysis isn't based on making life better for the UK population. It's based on maximising the number of Labour MPs in Parliament.
No way I would vote for him as long as he's willing to sacrifice the country for the good of the Labour party.
It comes back to the fact he's willing to lie to the electorate to get as many seats as possible (endangering faith in politics and the long term viability of democracy in the UK) or he genuinely plans to make no move to join the CU/SM (the longer the UK stays out the longer the issues will take to fix).
Party over country is why the UK is in the mess it's in.
two cheeks of the same arse. Pro brexit, anti immigration, anti democratic, pro austerity, pro privitisation
I'd have liked to be able to argue against that but then found examples to disprove what I'd have liked to prove. The last one was pro-austerity, I thought surely not, then did some Googling and the best quote was "I’m against austerity. But we’re going to have to be fiscally disciplined" AKA austerity.
Has anyone seen starmer’s 3 lions leg tattoo yet?
No one has explained how he can make brexit work.
That's the whole point of a three word slogan. They're meant to sound good but not promise anything so that noone can analyse them. There's nothing to analyse. Did you just step off a spaceship?
Starmer’s analysis isn’t based on making life better for the UK population. It’s based on maximising the number of Labour MPs in Parliament.
How do you think democracy is meant to work? Politicians need votes that's the whole point.
No way I would vote for him as long as he’s willing to sacrifice the country for the good of the Labour party.
a) He isn't sacrificing anything. He's a remainer just like us, but he knows that he can't do anything about it right now. You and TJ are clinging to the fantasy that this could all be fixed if Starmer just wanted it enough. It just cannot be done.
b) Brexit isn't the only issue facing the country. You have lost all sense of perspective.
He isn’t sacrificing anything. He’s a remainer just like us, but he knows that he can’t do anything about it right now. You and TJ are clinging to the fantasy that this could all be fixed if Starmer just wanted it enough. It just cannot be done.
He's either sacrificing trust in democracy by lying to the electorate or he's sacrificing people's well being by following through with his promise to stay away from the CU/SM.
Look at what happened in Scotland with Gender Recognition. The SNP sacrificed a lot of support but were eventually able to build a cross party consensus. That's governing. Sometimes you have to sacrifice support to do what you believe is right.
It's not an unusual way for a government to work. You see it happening all the time all over Europe.
I really pity you guys. You only see the way things work in England and you assume that things just have to be that way.
Fix our two party fptp system and we'd have more hope about actual governance instead of the clown show currently in offer
I actually don’t really care what the now little englander centre right labour party do
the only thing I am interested in is Scottish idependence
Labour and tory. two cheeks of the same arse. Pro brexit, anti immigration, anti democratic, pro austerity, pro privitisation. Neither give me any hope for the future 0of the UK
Yes, you've made your point multiple times. Can you stop repeating please.
I am struck that those in England demonstrate significantly less to hope for than those in Scotland.
I wonder why that is?
I am reminded of that old (hippy) JLS quote “argue for your limitations and sure enough they are yours”.
Just like climate change this is not going to help you.
Surely cling film would be more comfortable than tin foil??
More cash - but its OK for you to keep repeating
"its impossible" etc?
🙂
Regarding rejoining
Do we even meet the democracy criteria for joining the EU? - more than half our parliamentarians are unelected, and our political class is riddled with corruption which legal authorities and courts seem unable or unwilling to fight
I really pity you guys. You only see the way things work in England and you assume that things just have to be that way.
Oh get in the ****ing sea.
I'm very well aware of how things work in other countries. But let me put it as simply as I can for you:
I don't LIKE the situation we are in.
I want things to change. I am perpetually furious about how shit UK government is.
But right now, in this election cycle, Starmer cannot do that. The SNP would not be able to do it either. Comparing Brexit with other unrelated issues in different countries with a completely different political context, a different context and a different parliamentary system is not
And lastly, I AM NOT IN ****ING ENGLAND.
It’s not an unusual way for a government to work
Very true.
Starmer and Labour aren't in government though, unless I've missed something 🤷🏼♂️
It’s also a case of regulatory allignment. The Swiss check their own laws for EU compliance as and when EU laws are passed, and sometimes let the EU law overide their own law. If he wants to keep the EU door open for a Swiss type deal he needs to be very vocally opposing the burning up of EU legislation and explaining why.
Can we all agree that this would be a good compromise at the moment?
No one has explained how he can make brexit work. As in get back all that lost trade, as in a recovery for all the businesses ruined by it, as in recover all the lost taxes, as in recover all the lost growth etc etc
He can't. He knows he can't. His primary responsibility right now is to hold his party together and get in to government. As much as you might like to call people names for supporting that effort it's ignoring the realities on the political ground. Trying to sell a rejoin movement now will just open up all the wounds even more.
You can look at labour's lead in the poles and say 'could do better' all you want but you don't know that that's true and the fact is that the current lead, very healthy as it is, is a result of their current approach and the Tories ongoing implosion. You want to mess with that?
You won't even be voting Labour and nor would you even if he started standing on a rejoin platform, would you?
Can we all agree
Are you new here? 🙂
If he was on a rejoin platform i probably would. My other sticking point tho is democracy - ie PR for westminster and a proper constittional settlement fit for the 21st century. I'd settle for a constitutional convention on that. I would also like to see a repudiation of the labour / tory pact in Scotland
i was a lifelong labour voter until labour in Scotland got into bed with the tories
I believe a platform of rejoin, constitutional convention and no more deals with the tories would gain ;labour a lot of the scots seats
But its too late now for Starmer to change course I think. He has nailed his colours to the mast as a antidemocratic brexiteer
Edit - don't confuse support for independence and respect for Sturgeons competence as meaning uncritical support for the SNP. Ive never voted SNP because some of what they stand for I do not like. My SNP MP is not someone I could ever vote for. the SNP have moved towards the sort of position I would vote for over the years tho and getting rid of Fergus Ewing is a big plus
Oh right. So actually you want him to make 3 other not insignificant commitments in addition to standing on a remain platform before you'll hold your nose and vote Labour. Maybe. :Roll:
My other sticking point tho is democracy – ie PR for westminster and a proper constittional settlement fit for the 21st century.
Yeah I'd love that, can you also get me the moon on a stick whilst you're there please?
But its too late now for Starmer to change course I think. He has nailed his colours to the mast as a antidemocratic brexiteer
He's nailed his colours to the mast as a pragmatist who absolutely must win the next election for the sake of all of us.
This is the price of Brexit. It is a long slow period of repair ahead, no matter what. It’s just reality. There, is, no, quick, fix.
Don’t forget the vandalism hasn’t stopped yet and what is it 1.5 years of time left on the meter before you get a chance to vote.
Indeed. The real fun and games hasn’t even started yet.
The scorched earth ‘Retained EU Laws’ bill will seal our complete divergence from the EU and render the damage irreversible
This is what they’ve REALLY wanted all along. It’s what Brexit was for. The whole point of it. Everything so far has just been mood music.
They are going to have left utter chaos in their disaster capitalist wake by the time they’re done. And now they now that they’re finished electorally it’ll be about doing as much damage as possible before they’re booted out
We’ll be a pariah state who’s economy will be based on money laundering and global tax avoidance with some regulation-free sweatshops bolted on
He’s nailed his colours to the mast as a pragmatist who absolutely must win the next election for the sake of all of us.
Most def, you can’t go having more of that we’re building 40 more hospitals crap.
When it turns out you really,really could do with them and the staff required for them.
If he was on a rejoin platform i probably would. My other sticking point tho is democracy – ie PR for westminster and a proper constittional settlement fit for the 21st century.
I want an anarchist revolution and for us all to live in peace and harmony in a federation of locally organised collectives. Sadly that's about as likely as rejoining the EU and getting rid of FPTP. TJ if you want any advice on how you square unrealistic fantasies of political utopia with cold hard reality just ask. I've spent a lifetime perfecting the coping mechanisms 😀.
I was merely answering the question Del
Don't forget the labour conference voted for PR which would ensure the UK never had a tory government again. Starmer flatly rejected it.
tories have given us a shit sandwich. Labour are offering a sandwich with a bit less shit in it and are telling us it tastes of cake. It hardly appetising
If labour's vision is of a xenophobic isolationist backwater, I don't want any part of it.
And if that isn't their vision, they need to articulate it a bit better.
Also the scottish perspective gives us a very different view. What you see depends on where you are looking from. to see labour acting with the tories and doing deals with them and cheering on tory wins is somewhat offputting to say the least
hence "two cheeks of the same arse" its really what it looks like from here. They are even chasing the same voters. Unionist brexiteers
They are going to have left utter chaos in their disaster capitalist wake by the time they’re done.
Calm down man. There's very little they can do in the 18 months they have left. It'll take years/decades to unravel all the EU laws even if they have no opposition (and they face significant opposition in the lords), and anything they do manage to do will be easily reversible by the Starmer govt. Aside from further industrial unrest, hospital chaos and more corruption scandals, very little will change between now and the next election.
If labour’s vision is of a xenophobic isolationist backwater
There's plenty ammunition to have a go at the labour party, you don't have to make stuff up. The brexiteers think labour is a haven of woke liberal snowflakes, and rejoiners a nest of closet flag-shagging racists. They can't both be right.
Is that quote from me?
*Apologies TJ. I'm not reading closely enough. Edited accordingly.
Is that quote from me?
I was merely answering the question Del
Appreciated. I do wonder why you get so energised by it all when there's a vanishingly small prospect of you voting for them. The main thing is Tories out, no?
From the viewpoint from here tories or labour makes very little difference when rejoin, action on democracy / the constitution and an end to austerity are being promised by two parties here and both labour and tories are offering brexit, no movement on democracy / the constitution and continueing austerity.
Labour offer Scotland nothing.
The main thing is Tories out, no?
No, the main thing is to improve the quality of life for the UK population.
Starmer is either lying to the population (further undermining faith in politics and democracy in general) or deliberately hamstringing himself so that he can't improve the quality of life for the UK population.
He's not doing it in the name of winning the election. Every opinion poll this year has a lead of between 15% - 25%. He's doing it to maximise the number of seats.
Lying in the name of maximising seat count is why the UK is in the state it's in.
You genuinely think the whole country would be as badly off under labour as under the Tories?
Scotland? yes. I do not believe a labour government will make any significant difference in Scotland. they have made it clear they will not spend significantly more so no increase in the scots budget, they have made it clear they embrace brexit so no answer to the brexit related issues in Scotland which are even more acute than in England. they have made it clear they have no respect for the Scots parliament and have made it clear no change on the constitution
Scotland is my country. England is a foreign country,.
If labour’s vision is of a xenophobic isolationist backwater, I don’t want any part of it.
And if that isn’t their vision, they need to articulate it a bit better.
That's why that slogan is so vague. You are reading far too much into it. It's not a policy statement, it's a marketing slogan. What does "work" mean in this context? Whatever you want it to mean. That's how marketing works, that's how democracy works.
Starmer is either lying to the population (further undermining faith in politics and democracy in general) or deliberately hamstringing himself so that he can’t improve the quality of life for the UK population.
Brexit has hamstrung him.
Rejoin. Is. Not. Politically. Possible.
You need to understand that.
Also, can you specify exactly what the lie is?
further undermining faith in politics and democracy in general
Noone has any faith in it now. Won't make a difference.
He’s doing it to maximise the number of seats.
That's literally his job right now. He's not PM yet.
Labour offer Scotland nothing.
They offer Scottish natiinalists nothing, no. But until you leave they are offering you the same thing they are 9dfering the rest of us. A more competent government that might actually be able to improve things and that aren't Tories.
Actually, you know what? Neither you nor TJ appear to have a clue how politics works so I'll just have to leave it there. I'll come back in a few weeks when we're on something else.
Rejoin. Is. Not. Politically. Possible.
Just about everything worthwhile is not possible, if by possible, you mean achievable in a few weeks.
It doesn't mean we should not argue for doing worthwhile things, even while we acknowledge that these will take some time to achieve..
Miolgrips - what you are missing is the difference in view from here and that fact we are being offered something different.
See my edit as to why labour are offering Scotland nothing - I don't mean independence. I mean real policies that will improve the lives of the population
Rejoin. Is. Not. Politically. Possible.
So you keep on claiming without any evidence or even argument to back it up
If that is true its only so because of Starmers embrace of brexit. From here the view is very different. Rejoin looks perfectly possible for an independent scotland in a short time frame and EU bods have made that clear
Also, can you specify exactly what the lie is?
He's doing the Have Cake and Eat It politics of the Tories. On the one hand, he's saying he will make Brexit work. On the other, he's saying there will be no concessions towards a CU/SM/Swiss style arrangement.
One of these statements is a lie.
The only way to Make Brexit Work is to give up some sovereignty to the EU. If he is not prepared to give up some sovereignty then it's as empty a phrase as Brexit Means Brexit.
So he is either lying that he will make Brexit work or he is lying that there will be no concessions toward a CU/SM/Swiss style deal.
He is following the Tory playbook.
If the next election was on a knife edge there might be some allowance for desperate measures and making promises you know can't be delivered might be justified in terms of getting the Tories out.
A 15%-25% lead is not the point you have to start considering desperate measures.
The only way to Make Brexit Work is to give up some sovereignty to the EU.
Did you listen to the interview? Especially where he was questioned on standards harmonisation? It was a smart answer, saying we will match EU regs without it sounding like giving up control to the EU (yes, this is disingenuous, and you can call it a lie if you want, but it’s what must be done). If you want whole UK alignment with the rest of Europe to actually happen, don’t demand your politicians explain it to voters by waving a white flag and shouting at them how undoing Brexit is the only way forward. Some serious political skills are needed to get the UK through the next 5 or so years.
So he is either lying that he will make Brexit work or he is lying that there will be no concessions toward a CU/SM/Swiss style deal.
It's actually worse than you put it, because by repeating the "make brexit work" lie time after time he's also building a parliamentary labour party full of delusional idiots who really believe this is possible. Thus, rather than cynically dropping the anti-EU stance the second he's elected (as some people would like to believe), he really will find he's irrevocably committed himself and the labour party more generally to pursuing this fantasy unicorn to the ongoing detriment of the country and likely collapse of the labour party as they all spend the next few years coming up with mutually contradictory gibberish about how to achieve it. See also: the current state of the tories.
And Starmers embrace of brexit lets the tories off the hook for the blame. Hence from here its " two cheeks of the same arse" ( along with the continuing alliance between tories and labour norrth of the border. )
shouting at them how undoing Brexit is the only way forward.
What we have here is two parties stating that calmly and reasonably and the remainder of the parties being very quiet about brexit
Did you listen to the interview, where he made it clear that Brexit has made a bad situation worse in the UK? That the Tories were already effing things up, and that with Brexit they’ve made things even worse?
It was a smart answer, saying we will match EU regs without it sounding like giving up control to the EU (yes, this is disingenuous, and you can call it a lie if you want, but it’s what must be done).
It's Have Cake and Eat it Politics.
It doesn't matter whether you call it a lie or disingenuous. It's a continuation of fairy-tale politics where something magic is going to happen and we're going to get all the good stuff and none of the bad.
It is going to lead to further erosion of trust in politics and further undermining of democracy. And it's going to do Labour absolutely no favours in the 7 years time. To the point it wouldn't surprise me if Labour ended up with a single term.
He claims that it's the Tories' version of brexit (that he whipped for and voted for) that has caused the problems, and that Labour's brexit will be unicorn farts and pixie dust. Quite how he hopes to achieve this state of affairs is not entirely clear, but he's going to have a whole bunch of MPs next time round who think that it must be possible (or surely they wouldn't have promised it), and who will be expecting it to be delivered somehow.
And lastly, I AM NOT IN **** ENGLAND
You're forgetting that everyone in Scotland thinks Wales and England are the same thing 😉
I’m not sure that is true. If you agreed on total alignment of standards, I bet you could get pretty close to the benefits of the CU and SM without actually signing up.
Are you still 'believing', have you learned nothing in the last 7 years?
You’re forgetting that everyone in Scotland thinks Wales and England are the same thing
does tend to happen.
However one consistent thing on this thread is folk not understanding the view from north of the border is very different to that from south of the border. ( Scotland England border 😉 )
Lambeth was 78.6% remain and Boston 24.4%. Differences in England itself dwarfed the difference between north and south of the Border. In terms of regions London was very much remain but the West Midlands leave so if you put the border in its traditional place at Watford Gap the North was more leave than the South.
The difference with Scotland is that it has an independant voice and is using it. Good.
I mean the view as in what is seen as possible and desirable and where the political leaders are taking us.
In Scotland our biggest party is pro rejoin, pro immigration and anti austerity as are two of the smaller parties . We are exposed to that voice and point of view. In England only the discredited lib dems are in anyway pro rejoin
I believe also that the ill effects of brexit are more obvious here ( but that could be my bias) and also we do not have a single pro brexit area
So you keep on claiming without any evidence or even argument to back it up
In your terminology this is what is called a lie. I gave you arguments, I asked you to tell us how rejoin could be done. All you could come up with was a piece of magical thinking that would shame a Brexiter "Rejoin. It's not rocket science". No, it's not rocket science - rocket science is an absolute piece of piss compared with trying to rejoin the EU. You have declined to set out the steps you think would be involved - I suspect because you have not actually thought about it. I have a lot of respect for your career spent caring for people - but one thing it has not done is given you an understanding of the difficulties and complexities of trying to achieve political and legislative change on this scale.
Here's a comment from someone who does have some understanding of those difficulties:
A closer relationship with the EU would be the ambition of a government led by Sir Keir Starmer. It is the subtext of the Labour leader’s slogan “make Brexit work”.
That’s a disappointment to those who think that what the UK should really be asking itself is whether there is a way to turn back the clock and return to an EU we should never have left. Another product of Bregret is that pollsters now report that a majority of the public say that, given the choice, they would like to rejoin. There’s a vanishingly slight chance of that happening in the foreseeable future because, even supposing that the EU would welcome us back, the politics of negotiating re-entry and then holding another referendum are so incredibly difficult. The sad and cruel truth is that strategic blunders as colossal as Brexit can’t be corrected easily or swiftly. Some mistakes have to be paid for over many years. This, alas, is the UK’s fate. Not a golden age, but ages of regret.
<deleted - double post due to 502 Bad Gateway>
we do not have a single pro brexit area
Moray was (is?) close. I blame all those military/ex-military types around Kinloss and Lossiemouth 😂
One wheel - difficult does no equal impossible and it still does no excuse Starmers embrace of brexit which has two effects
1) lets the tories off the hook for the blame
2) makes any eventual return harder and take longer
Thats my point not that I think we could renter tomorrow but that should be the clear aim. Rawnsley is not know for his critique of the centre right labour anyway only when it turns to the left. He is completely uncritical of Starmer.
Serious question with the EU laws expiring soon...
Do they
A) Continue to apply unless specifically superceded via a new law being voted in and going through due process?
B) The laws in question simply dissappear from legislature resulting in a total free for all?
C) An admin botch occurs where simply "EU“ is scribbled out and annotated with "UK" on any relevant documents so no change in effect?
D) something else?
B