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I’m not Welsh though Ernie.
So why then are you using a Welsh word when referring to English? It makes no more sense than giving English names to mountains in Wales.
Unless the point you are making is that the language used in irrelevant.
Where’s the campaign to rename Blencathra?
Didn't it used to be Saddleback?
All road signs as you enter Wales are bilingual, have been for many years, Christ, this isn’t anything new, it’s just formalising a place name that, up to now, hasn’t been officially updated.
Some here are really going to throw their toys out of their prams if the go to Cornwall and discover that not only has an English county got its own distinctive language, but their road signs are in Cornish as well.
@countzero you misunderstand. What Scotsroutes and I were proposing is that instead of an English name that bears no relation to the original it's simply an anglicised pronunciation of the Welsh/Gaelic/Pictish/Norse of the landmark in question.
Well as above, there are genuine historical English names for these places either conferred from English traders etc or inherited from Vikings who may well have founded the actual towns 8n the first place. So if you didn't include those you'd be in some ways erasing that part of history. Swansea/Abertawe, Anglesey/Môn etc. So when the English name bears no relation to the Welsh name there may be legitimate reasons for it. There isn't really much a concept of an official name in the UK even now, never mind 1000 years ago.
Often where a place has enough history of English speaking inhabitants or being dealt with by English speakers there's a name which is simply a transliteration (e.g. Conway/Conwy) or a bit more of a mangling (e.g. Usk/Wysg). Sometimes the English and Welsh are both independently derived from something else (e.g. Cardiff/Caerdydd both from an older name for the River Taff)
https://www.wales.com/about/language/place-names-wales#:~:text=I t's%20known%20in%20English%20as,name%20Taf%20(English%20Taff).
I see what you mean @squirrelking, on roadsigns instead of:
"Bannau Brycheiniog"
"Brecon Beacons"
you'd have:
"Bannau Brycheiniog"
"Banaye Brucheiniog (pronouncing the ch as in loch)"
Yeah, but I don't think so 🙂
You can't properly englishify some of the sounds. You just have to know them, or not. So you may as well just leave it at Brecon Beacons and those who are interested in learning the proper Welsh pronunciations can.
In this case - preferably by asking someone Welsh in a pub in Brecon during their visit.
People getting outraged by the Welsh using their own language in their own country
This really. The Welsh have a language, they can use it to name things if they want to.
Didn’t it used to be Saddleback
Doubtful the 12th C Britons knew the 1850s OS name.
So why then are you using a Welsh word when referring to English
Sorry you're struggling to keep up. FWIW I speak Welsh, but usually just in the pub when the Sais walk in 😉
As said above more eloquently, Brecons will continue to be called Brecons until this reactionary populist generation dies out, henceforward being known by all as y Bannau just like Aotearoa, Uluru, Myanmar, etc.
Or maybe not. An Englishman can live in Betws y Coed for 25 years surrounded by the correct pronunciation, and still call it Betsy Code.
So why then are you using a Welsh word when referring to English
Sorry you’re struggling to keep up. FWIW I speak Welsh, but usually just in the pub when the Sais walk in 😉
Sorry but that doesn't explain why you are using a Welsh word when referring to the English.
Are you claiming that referring to English as "Sais", despite all the other words in the sentence not being in Welsh, is acceptable?
In which case why are you bothered about a mountain? Just refer to it in whatever language you want.
“Bannau Brycheiniog”
“Banaye Brucheiniog (pronouncing the ch as in loch)”
Or, more simply;
Bannaye Brukeiniog
It might not be right but it's easily pronounceable in English. It's not like we've not been putting up with it forever up here.
Always seems strange that people say ch as in 'loch', which also isn't an English word but apparently more commonly known than any Welsh word with ch in it.
Whilst we are on the subject, at the Aviemore triathlon I was lightly chastised for referring to Loch Morlich as a lake. I mean, it's definitely a lake isn't it?
No, it's a loch.
If it was Lake of Menteith you would be right but otherwise it's a loch. If its particularly small then it may be a lochan.
Similarly you don't refer to the major estuaries as such, they are firths.
This is literally the exact same thing you were arguing against.
Always seems strange that people say ch as in ‘loch’,
Not half as strange as the fact that 99% of English speakers can't pronounce it properly and it still comes out as 'lock'.
Just refer to it in whatever language you want
That's the gist of my last post, mate. Doesn't matter what I call it, there will be plenty of people who will insist on calling it the English name. People who are okay with the Anglicisation of Wales, from both sides of the border. Read "Neighbours from Hell" by Mike Parker and by all means keep referring it to the Brecons after that if you like, but you might see it differently.
I don't know why you're triggered by Sais. It just comes from the word for Saxon. I thought everyone knew it. Just about every sentence one utters contains a loan word. If I ask for potatoes in a shop, do I need to ask in Spanish?
"ch" must be a sound that's just not a thing in English, I can't think of any English words that use it. In Wales that sound is learned as one of the first words you say "ych" even in many monoglot English speaking households.
Not half as strange as the fact that 99% of English speakers can’t pronounce it properly and it still comes out as ‘lock’.
Is that not just an inherent problem with speakers of any language dealing with sounds that aren't native in their own tongue? The French often corrupt 'th' as 'z', Chinese stereotypically trip on 'l/r' and so forth. We mangle words like chorizo, jalapeño, penne, and there's a certain degree of stigma around pronouncing them correctly for fear of sounding like a pretentious tossbag.
I don’t know why you’re triggered by Sais. It just comes from the word for Saxon. I thought everyone knew it.
First time I've ever come across it, I had to google it.
Seems like the sort of word you'd choose to use instead of "English" for a reason.
Not half as strange as the fact that 99% of English speakers can’t pronounce it properly and it still comes out as ‘lock’.
Tbf to them, plenty of English people can't pronounce easy words in their own language, never mind others. I heard a newsreader talking about nucular power the other night. And don't get me started on Saafend on Sea. 😀
Tbf to them, plenty of English people can’t pronounce easy words in their own language, never mind others. I heard a newsreader talking about nucular power the other night. And don’t get me started on Saafend on Sea. 😀
My dad used to refer to a small glass container as a "likkle bokkle." I wanted to bokkle him every time he said it.
Personally I'm all for it. They are in Wales so crack on boyo. I'll never get my tongue round it with any ability so in all likelihood I'll keep calling them the Beacons or Brecon but I've no issue with the renaming whatsoever. Struggle to understand why anyone would TBH...
When I mentioned to Mrs C, (who's Welsh first language) that they were changing the name she said " Oh it's always been called Bannau Brycheiniog in Welsh." For a sizeable part of the country this name usage isn't terribly radical, for instance she and the kids have always referred to Snowdon as Yr Wyddfa and only really use English versions of place names to accommodate me, generally using English names when speaking English and Welsh names when speaking Welsh, as you'd expect.
Is that not just an inherent problem with speakers of any language dealing with sounds that aren’t native in their own tongue?
Well, yes that's entirely my point. Why would you describe something as 'ch as in loch' to an English person when it's not even a sound used in English?
NO, WAIT!!!
“ch” must be a sound that’s just not a thing in English, I can’t think of any English words that use it
Book
Chicken
Clock
Sick
Fantastic
Or in fact any word with a k sound if you're Scouse. Not even taking the piss here.
I'm guessing that's the Irish influence somewhere?
Am I being dumb but
Not half as strange as the fact that 99% of English speakers can’t pronounce it properly and it still comes out as ‘lock’.
Leads on to
“ch” must be a sound that’s just not a thing in English, I can’t think of any English words that use it
Leads on to
Book
Chicken
Clock
Sick
Fantastic
all of which to me at least have the same sound for the ck as in lock - chicken being the closest to the ch in loch but even then, only by being a bit scouse.
I mean, I know what sound the 'ch' in loch has, the closest I can think of in RP english is the 'ch' in school which has a bit of the throat clearing sound and is not skool.
The closest English comes to the /ch/ is in Scouse, as Squirrelking points out. Liverpool was once dubbed the northern capital of Wales with the biggest concentration of Cymry outside of Cymru at the turn of the 20th C.
You can hear it in fach/bach
The English really are pretty weird about languages. I grew up in England speaking two languages and was seen as a bit odd.
I’ve just moved to the south of France where all the signs are in French and Catalan. Most people speak at least two languages (it’s a border area so lots of French & Spanish or Catalan bilingual people plus there are a lot of Northern European sun-seekers who have migrated south). It feels good, healthy, to have all this linguistic variety.
So I reckon Wales is doing everyone in the UK a favour by being multilingual. Reminding England that there are more languages and it’s good to be linguistically diverse. Not to mention that once you learn a second language it makes it easier to learn a third… so upping the general skills and braininess of the Brits (despite some seeming a bit resistant).
I reckon the exclamation 'ugh!' is quite close to the ch sound from Welsh.
The closest English comes to the /ch/ is in Scouse, as Squirrelking points out.
Unsurprising, they're not a million miles apart geographically. There's more Scousers in Rhyl than in Liverpool.
(probably😁)
Do the 'English' have a monopoly on national pride/identity? Why give it an English name in the place? Call it whatever works for you.
@theotherjonv did you watch the start of that video I posted? He uses the /ch/ sound from loch in a few words in the first 10 seconds or so.
@squirrelking:
Or, more simply;
Bannaye Brukeiniog
It might not be right but it’s easily pronounceable in English
So it's wrong then! And if it's wrong, why bother at all?
Just leave roadsigns as:
Welsh
English
not:
Welsh
Some wrong but sort of a bit right English bastardisation
People who are okay with the Anglicisation of Wales, from both sides of the border. Read “Neighbours from Hell” by Mike Parker and by all means keep referring it to the Brecons after that if you like, but you might see it differently.
What about people like me? Welsh people who live in Wales who don't care?
It's a minority of Welsh people who really desparately care, remember. 72%+ of people who live in Powys have "no knowledge of Welsh". So all of this is to appease the 17%.
And I wouldn't call them "neighbours from hell" - but generally when you refer to people that way you're talking about the minority. Now, I don't think Welsh speakers are neighbours from hell, of course. But nationalists. Well, like Einstein said:
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It's the measles of mankind.
And unfortunately, a lot of these moves are wrapped up in a whiff of nationalism - like the renaming of Carnedd Uchaf to Gwenllian in 2009 - which is a clear and infantile two fingers.
@cougar:
First time I’ve ever come across it, I had to google it.
Seems like the sort of word you’d choose to use instead of “English” for a reason.
Yep. It is often used to refer to "the English" if you know what I mean. If you're conversing in English and use it then it's probably a barb (unless you're using it instructively). It's not always politically neutral and largely used in the manner you think IMO.
Well, like Einstein said:
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It’s the measles of mankind.
He was talking in a really very different context!
I partially agree with you Chevychase in that there is toxic nationalism, but there is also a question of cultural preservation which isn't quite the same thing since political separatism and cultural identity are different. It would be perfectly possible for Wales to be 100% Welsh speaking and eat laverbread and cockles every day whilst singing hymns in chapel, but still be part of the UK.
I reckon the exclamation ‘ugh!’ is quite close to the ch sound from Welsh.
thats pretty much what "ych" means
The conservative case for renaming the Brecon Beacons
https://unherd.com/thepost/the-conservative-case-for-renaming-the-brecon-beacons/
English conservatives, who claim to defend British culture, are often very dismissive of those parts of British heritage which are not English. They assume their version of Britain is the only one that exists, and the rich linguistic heritage of these islands is lost on them. The result of this is, inadvertently, to invigorate nationalists, as every symbolic insult fans the flames of independence. Economic arguments are difficult to win, but messages that boil down to “Some of the English hate our culture” hit home because they seem to be true.
Anyway Google Maps are using Bannau Brycheiniog now so thats it all done and dusted and controversy over.
although Google are still using the old name for Eryri National Park - it may reflect the more professional and considered rebranding plan that BBNP had, whereas Eryri just announced the name change one evening spontaneously after a meeting.
It’s not always politically neutral and largely used in the manner you think IMO
but… “it’s just a name…” like the Brecons XD this politically charged language goes both ways, see? If you insist on using the Saesneg name after this, you’re making a political statement at best, disrespecting a language at worst.
@chevychase you should have a look at Neighbours From Hell.
72%+ of people who live in Powys have “no knowledge of Welsh”
I'm amazed they even understood the question if a Welsh word (Powys) was used in the question.
Do they have no conception of where they live? if people ask them which county do you live in? do they say,....er I dunno!
. It feels good, healthy, to have all this linguistic variety.
Completely agree. But here in Euskadi (and likely in Catalunya) if you stubbornly insist on using equivalent Spanish placenames you're not exactly going to be endearing yourself.
Do they have no conception of where they live? if people ask them which county do you live in? do they say,….er I dunno!
If they answered "I don't recognise borders or countries as they represent an outmoded, outdated, primitive level of thinking that is just another route that leads to conflict between humans that are genetically speaking, almost identical" maybe we'd be on the right track, eh? 😉
Just looked up Euskadi… every day is a school day (and that’s another good thing)
So I reckon Wales is doing everyone in the UK a favour by being multilingual. Reminding England that there are more languages and it’s good to be linguistically diverse.
As there’s two variants of Gaelic, Scottish and Irish, Manx, Welsh, (which has differences between north and south), and Cornish, it’s way past time Little Englanders had their noses rubbed in it.
I don’t speak Welsh, despite Jo’s best efforts, bless her, but I have enough understanding of the structure of the language to not have any trouble pronouncing Bannau Brycheiniog. Same as Y Mynyddoedd Duon, or Y Mynydd Du, which I find easier to say.
From the Guardian
Restoring the Brecon Beacons’ original name is not part of a ‘woke’ agenda. It’s just Welsh people, speaking Welsh in Wales.
Good point, well made. Bonus points for pissing off the gammons though 👌
"Same as Y Mynyddoedd Duon, or Y Mynydd Du"
These are different places, at opposite ends of the park. It can lead to a bit of confusion though. You probably know this though.
That's what I keep saying on the Scottish Nationalism thread.
Still going? Not read this as hear enough about it through the day job.
From a work perspective, it's a bit like Hermes changing their name to Evri. The National Park are still the same frustrating organisation, but every so often they deliver. 🤷♂️😆