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If you're still stuck on pronunciation, it was a featurette on HIGNFY tonight.
If you’re still stuck on pronunciation, it was a featurette on HIGNFY tonight.
I saw that and I can't say that it helped me with pronunciation. It seemed to involve making a noise that no human being should make.
It’s a minority of Welsh people who really desparately care, remember. 72%+ of people who live in Powys have “no knowledge of Welsh”. So all of this is to appease the 17%.
Do you have a link for this stat? It's just not credible. It may apply to people classifying themselves as fluent Welsh speakers, but everyone who's schooled in Wales has a basic knowledge of Welsh. I can't speak Welsh but 'desperately care'.
If they answered “I don’t recognise borders or countries as they represent an outmoded, outdated, primitive level of thinking that is just another route that leads to conflict between humans that are genetically speaking, almost identical” maybe we’d be on the right track, eh?
Is this what you genuinely believe? You're a one-world government loon.
I would guess that it's not what you actually believe and that, like everybody, you yourself are a nationalist. Probably a British nationalist. Not that you love Britain and wave union jacks about, but you're generally happy with the current state of things.
The scrap-all-borders nonsense is a way to deal with the obvious hypocrisy of being a nationalist who derides nationalism.
Same old tropes. Languages are hard to learn shocker. That said, 9yo Natalia has zero problems with /Ch/
https://twitter.com/NewyddionS4C/status/1603731513396297728?s=20
I teach English, there are sounds that many learners struggle with - even the most common, the schwa, can take years before sounding natural. Welsh has reasonably regular pronunciation if you bother to look into it, but sadly many monoglots on both sides of Offa's dyke just put their fingers in their ears "It's ugly/difficult/not a proper language/forced down our throats". If that's your level of engagement, you don't really qualify to opine on what a national park gets to call itself in its own country.
everyone who’s schooled in Wales has a basic knowledge of Welsh. I can’t speak Welsh but ‘desperately care’.
But not desperately enough to learn how to speak it?
Or is Welsh just too difficult?
But not desperately enough to learn how to speak it?
Or is Welsh just too difficult?
It's complex. I can speak basic Welsh, not through school but through doing online courses etc.
I have enough to understand most Welsh media but not enough confidence to speak it.
It's the kind of nuance that gets lost in the census results.
Lots of people in Wales are similar; varying degrees of Welsh but don't classify themselves as Welsh speakers.
Welsh isn't a particularly complex language but any language can hard to learn without immersion and all languages take a lot of work. Most adults aren't able to spare the time.
I saw that and I can’t say that it helped me with pronunciation. It seemed to involve making a noise that no human being should make.
Oh, professional comedians taking the piss out of Welsh again? How refreshing... We were talking about celebrating ignorance on the Sunak maths thread...
How about not taking yourself so seriously and getting so angry on a MTB chat forum molgrips? 💡
How about reading that book I mentioned up there Ernie and recognising your attitude in it. I'll even link you to it. Then, perhaps, every post you have made on this thread wouldn't have been a massive waste of your time and you might learn something.
The idea for this book came to me one Sunday, as I was reading some columnist's drivel in, I think, the Sunday Times. He'd just come back from a weekend in Wales, and had filled his weekly thousand word quota with a diatribe about bilingual road signs and the Welsh language generally. At one point, he dipped into the well-scooped cliché pot and complained that Welsh had no vowels and sounded like spitting. I suddenly realised that I'd read this same lame point time and again, and every time presented as something new, something funny and something worth saying. It's none of them.
Because it's not a subject which I am particularly interested in Bob, and you are completely misrepresenting my "attitude".
I frankly couldn't give a monkeys what languages people speak. My comment with regards to cougar's hignfy reference was actually vaguely serious if somewhat frivolous. The sounds used to pronounce the word Brycheiniog are not sounds which I recognise from any other language I have heard spoken.
And my observation does not constitute "taking the piss out of the Welsh", not least because the overwhelming majority of Welsh don't speak Celtic.
Just the angry miserable minority with a chip on their shoulders, it would appear from the comments of some on here.
The sounds used to pronounce the word Brycheiniog are not sounds which I recognise from any other language I have heard spoken.
Then you probably don't know much about languages, the hard ch is used in Arabic (as well as a softer h as in Ahmed) as well as the other Britonic languages and Scots. And that's not what you said in the first place, was it? Maybe read back and you might understand that your cheap "humour" is only going to antagonise people.
the overwhelming majority of Welsh don’t speak Celtic.
Just the angry miserable minority with a chip on their shoulders, it would appear from the comments of some on here.
None of the Welsh speak "Celtic" just as nobody from Rwanda speaks "African". It's exactly that sort of ignorant pish that gets folks backs up, try hearing it all your life and then tell me about having a chip on your shoulder.
That Cerys Matthews link above; "Tir" - is that the Welsh word for Land - and how exactly is it pronounced? The Scots Gaelic is spelt Tir and would sound like "cheer".
Ch isn't quite the same as the one in German but it's pretty close. Also I have a feeling it's similar in Dutch too. We used to have it in English, which is why we have a ght in 'night' but eventually the ch got less and less until it became aspirate and then merged with the vowel. Isn't it 'nicht' in Scots or is that just bobbins? Dutch word for wait is wacht.
Tir is like teer but with a Welsh accent so with a slightly wider mouth and tighter tongue. And if you're really going for it, a rolled r.
How many languages do you speak?
Just one these days but English is my third language - I didn't speak a word of English until I was 6 years old.
None of the Welsh speak “Celtic” just as nobody from Rwanda speaks “African”. It’s exactly that sort of ignorant pish that gets folks backs up, try hearing it all your life and then tell me about having a chip on your shoulder.
Wow, so much anger. Yeah I meant to say Gaelic, as is also spoken in Brittany and Galicia, not Celtic, obviously. Thanks for pointing it out.
Isn’t it ‘nicht’ in Scots or is that just bobbins?
It's a braw bricht moonlit nicht the nicht. It's a while since I heard anyone use that pronunciation, but then Scots has suffered the same homologation as our other languages and doesn't even have the profile/protection of Gaelic now enjoys.
I have never had a single lesson of Welsh even though I am Welsh, grew up in Wales and went to school for the majority of my time in Wales. None of my mates spoke Welsh or did it in school that I know of, I think my brother briefly went to a school in Penarth where it was taught, we are from Barry. As I am now older I have made a more concerted effort to learn the pronunciation of Welsh as I believe it's important to me, even though I live in England now. The name changes in North and South Wales a great in my opinion and it is how I will try to refer to them, but I am under no illusion that I will have to say the new name followed by the old so people know where I am referring too... I'm pretty sure that if I don't get it quite right then no one will mind anyway
A friend at work did say the Brecons the other day which up until then I had never heard them called that!
Are you new here?
No, I'm just post-hangover tired and not particularly willing to suffer fools gladly.
Are you new here?
I'm not but it still amazes me how some people can get so worked up over nonsense.
As does the complete lack of self awareness of some people who bang on endlessly about "gammons".
Oh but national identity can be such a touchy subject, as can language, and everything cultural. Just as long as it isn't English eh? If it has any connection with England then it's racism. FFS
Somebody posted up-thread about chips and shoulders 🙂
What did they say? Were they English?
Yeah I meant to say Gaelic, as is also spoken in Brittany
Breton is Brythonic not like Gaelic.
I refer people to the learned Einstein's quote about Nationalism, which was posted earlier.
It is a silly disease.
Breton is Brythonic not like Gaelic.
Well whilst living in Paris a guy from Brittany once told me that Breton speakers could understand people from Wales, which he found highly amusing.
Based on the fact that "Welsh" isn't the recognised language of Brittany I assumed it was because both languages were Gaelic.
He might have exaggerated the level of mutual understanding, I don't know.
I made the distinction of calling Welsh Gaelic probably because I was brought up to refer to Castellano (my second language) as the language spoken in South America. Although that seems to have changed in recent years with more emphasis on calling it Espanol.
But yeah just call it Welsh. It's obviously not worth arguing the toss.
If it has any connection with England then it’s racism.
I need a new Ironyometer, mine just melted.
Buy yourself a gammonmeter at the same time.
Because it’s not a subject which I am particularly interested in Bob, and you are completely misrepresenting my “attitude”.
I frankly couldn’t give a monkeys what languages people speak. My comment with regards to cougar’s hignfy reference was actually vaguely serious if somewhat frivolous. The sounds used to pronounce the word Brycheiniog are not sounds which I recognise from any other language I have heard spoken.
In which case, why don’t you just piss off and stop wasting your time and everyone else’s by continuing your nonsense trolling!
'Wasting time' lol. It took a whole day before someone decided that they were offended by a fairly innocuous comment that I had made the previous day!
And having finally decided that they were offended it turns into an endless discussion straddling one page to the next, with you adding your two pennies worth.
Yet accusing someone of trolling, telling them to piss off, and calling them a prick, isn't wasting anyone's time.
It's all an important contribution to the discussion regarding renaming Brecon Beacons Bannau Brycheiniog.
Btw what is your view on dropping the name "Beacons" because it undermines the message with regards to climate change CZ? Or do you just want to focus on insulting people?
Based on the fact that “Welsh” isn’t the recognised language of Brittany I assumed it was because both languages were Gaelic.
It's a Celtic language but not Gaelic. That refers to Scottish and Irish variants which are Goedelic, as opposed to Welsh, Breton, Cornish which are Brythonic. These language families together are Insular Celtic.
Happy to discuss linguistics but the bickering is getting bad.
the bickering is
getting badops normal
FTFY
I made the distinction of calling Welsh Gaelic probably because I was brought up to refer to Castellano (my second language) as the language spoken in South America. Although that seems to have changed in recent years with more emphasis on calling it Espanol.
But yeah just call it Welsh. It’s obviously not worth arguing the toss
Castellano is my second language too and around here (Euskadi) it’s still referred to as such - Gaztelania, or Gazte. When I speak to people from LatAm they call it Español, semantics maybe but each country has its own distinct flavour of Spanish whereas I tend to think of Castilian Spanish as wot they talk in Madrid.
Happy to discuss linguistics
Agreed.
I think Cymraeg differs to the other languages of the family because it’s been continuously spoken, others have died out and been revived. So it has assimilated a lot of loan lexis, like Latin verb endings and English vocabulary, whereas say Kernowek is a more “pure” language.
So it has assimilated a lot of loan lexis, like Latin verb endings and English vocabulary, whereas say Kernowek is a more “pure” language.
”Digidol” being my favourite.
Back to place names, similarity of Cornish and Breton names always surprises me, although it makes sense.
[ Kernowek is a word I’ve learned today, thank you… every day’s a school day ]
I know very little about how modern Cymraeg came to be, but I enjoy that you can conjugate verbs like a romance language eg. "Ddudodd fy mam...", my mam said / "Ddudes i...", I said - or with an auxiliary "do" like in English of yore: "Naeth fy mam ddeud...", my mam did say / "Nes i ddeud...", I did say. And either work, so you can be a bit lazy in learning the conjugations.
That said, if Spanish or Basque had that "chicken line", I don't think I'd have bothered learning any conjugations at all...
When I speak to people from LatAm they call it Español, semantics maybe but each country has its own distinct flavour of Spanish whereas I tend to think of Castilian Spanish as wot they talk in Madrid.
Yeah I think things changed massively in the decades following the death of Franco. When Franco was alive Castilian was simply referred as Spanish because it was the only language spoken, as no other language was permitted. Franco would have insisted that it was referred to as Spanish.
Following Franco's death it no longer made sense to call it Spanish because other languages in Spain were officially recognised.
In contrast when I lived in Argentina as a small child the language was always without exception referred to as Castellano. And my father, whose mother tongue it was, always referred to it as Castellano until his death about 35 years ago.
I believe things have changed in recent times and that it is now referred to more as Espanol in Argentina, but I don't know, I haven't been there for 20 years.
Personally I think all these multitudes of languages is a load of bollocks, they only help to create divisions and hatred in the world. Obviously that is my personal opinion and undoubtedly I will be called a troll, a pick, and told to piss off, as it is at odds with what apparently is the correct opinion.