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So I thought I'd step it up a bit and have a crack at Knights of Cydonia, as kind of a gateway drug on the way to Hysteria.
It's a bit of a workout!
Worst thing is, my guitar playing son walked in while I was practicing and I mentioned I'm trying to work my way up to Hysteria. I challenged him to see what he could play of it, and in 10 minutes he was making not a bad attempt. "It's quite tricky" he said as his fingers flashed all over the fretboard.
Worst thing is, my guitar playing son walked in while I was practicing and I mentioned I'm trying to work my way up to Hysteria. I challenged him to see what he could play of it, and in 10 minutes he was making not a bad attempt. "It's quite tricky" he said as his fingers flashed all over the fretboard.
A housemate did a similar thing to me at uni with Waterfalls. He was mostly a pianist and drummer but also played guitar and could read music properly, and just sightread the bloody thing…
Saying that, I might try Hysteria. I was having a go at Stone Cold Bush and slapped 16th notes at 135bpm in the solo is quite hectic!
well i popped into PMT Nottingham yesterday for a look at their guitars, see how the squier jazz felt with the narrower neck, and just a general yap with the sales member there.
yes, the jazz felt easier to use the frets up the top of the neck, but i questioned myself on whether that was a good thing or not. should i learn on one thats a regular shape, and fine-tune later do you think? and would i notice the difference in sound between a jazz and an affinity?
i also liked the look of a little Orange practice amp. anyone got any experience of it, and how it would compare to my borrowed fender rumble 15?
thanks
Neck shape is just personal preference. I prefer a jazz neck and find my chunky vintage style P bass more tiring to play. I’ve even been looking at swapping the neck to a jazz style neck. Sound wise its preference as well. Jazz basses generally sound brighter and you’ve more control over blending the two pick ups to get a different sound. Go full neck pick up and wind the tone down a little and you get a very similar sound to a P bass. You’ll never get a P to sound quite like a jazz. I like mine with both pick ups on full, as I’ve also the P (with flatwounds) for bluesy or Motown stuff.
I wouldn't upgrade the fender amp for the 25 watt orange for now. IMO I would wait until you are more practised and really get an upgrade itch and then go for a 50w (or more) IMO 50w starts to feel more pleasurable as an upgrade to the first practise amp.
Has anyone tried the spark neo headphones? They do bass amp simulation as well as guitar, and they sound like they could stream a lesson from a computer/phone at the same time as being connected to the bass/guitar.
I don't know if it is just me, but I find cables annoying, so really like wireless solutions.
ok chaps, thanks, points noted. oh and......
IMO I would wait until you are more practised and really get an upgrade itch and then go for a 50w (or more)
im getting an upgrade itch already and im only a few days in 😀
Has anyone tried the spark neo headphones? They do bass amp simulation as well as guitar, and they sound like they could stream a lesson from a computer/phone at the same time as being connected to the bass/guitar.
I don't know if it is just me, but I find cables annoying, so really like wireless solutions.
Are they low enough latency? Groove is so time critical so if there’s much delay it’ll throw you off.
well i popped into PMT Nottingham yesterday for a look at their guitars, see how the squier jazz felt with the narrower neck, and just a general yap with the sales member there.
yes, the jazz felt easier to use the frets up the top of the neck, but i questioned myself on whether that was a good thing or not. should i learn on one thats a regular shape, and fine-tune later do you think? and would i notice the difference in sound between a jazz and an affinity?
J and P basses are the same width at the bridge (3/4” string spacing) it’s the nut end of the neck where the difference is most obvious (J=1.5” nut, P=1.75” nut).
If you’re noticing a difference higher up the neck then it’s mostly a set-up thing. Assuming the neck is straight (truss rod tension correct) then you just need to wind down the saddles at the bridge to lower the action, then adjust the intonation. I’m sure there’s lots of info online on how to do that.
If you’re noticing a difference higher up the neck then it’s mostly a set-up thing.
have to make sure i dont get my 'lowers' and 'highers' mixed up when talking about the neck, but i think i know where youre coming from. and its 'lower' (nut end) thats tapered smaller yes. so i wondered if that might help me as when my arms outstretched to the lower frets, its quite awkward to fret the E string with stretched out fingers, so a closer scale might help me there. however, it might make more sense to just get used to it as wide as it can be whilst learning, maybe try and get used to it, or just microshift more rather than stretch awkwardly.
The convention when talking about lower and higher is the pitch rather than the position, which inconveniently is the opposite way around (and is the way some people still refer to things). Higher strings are thinner, higher up the neck is the close together frets near the body.
Down at the nut it’s often comfiest to finger 1-2-4 rather than stretch across four frets 1-2-3-4. If you get your thumb in the middle of the neck and even sometimes closer to the higher strings it’s easier to reach if you’re having to be dexterous down there.
Wearing the bass at quite an angle stops the first fret being so far away, which is why I usually play standing rather than sitting.
Down at the nut it’s often comfiest to finger 1-2-4 rather than stretch across four frets 1-2-3-4.
yeah ill try that. i was really uncomfortable trying to stretch earlier, and was getting fret buzz as my pinkie couldnt quite reach the ideal place on the fret, so i should just make sure comfort comes first i think. probably need to shift more and stretch less, whatever works best.
If you get your thumb in the middle of the neck and even sometimes closer to the higher strings it’s easier to reach if you’re having to be dexterous down there.
tried pushing my thumb further around closer to the G string, but i just end up with my wrist cocked at an awkward angle, even if im stood with the bass angled steeply upwards. i spose at 60, im just not very flexible any more. anywhere! 😀
I spend an awful lot of time playing with my hand wrapped around the neck and my fingers relaxed and close together. If I need to do something super widdly I’ll just shift my thumb and fingers into that classical guitar style position and then relax back again into easy grooving position.
If the nut is too high it makes it much harder down at the first fret, so that’s worth looking at. Bass takes a fair bit of strength to fret the notes cleanly, but not tons, it’s not like trying to hold onto your bars on a long rocky descent!
Take it easy, don’t hurt yourself.
well i popped into PMT Nottingham yesterday for a look at their guitars, see how the squier jazz felt with the narrower neck, and just a general yap with the sales member there.
yes, the jazz felt easier to use the frets up the top of the neck, but i questioned myself on whether that was a good thing or not. should i learn on one thats a regular shape, and fine-tune later do you think? and would i notice the difference in sound between a jazz and an affinity?
J and P basses are the same width at the bridge (3/4” string spacing) it’s the nut end of the neck where the difference is most obvious (J=1.5” nut, P=1.75” nut).
If you’re noticing a difference higher up the neck then it’s mostly a set-up thing. Assuming the neck is straight (truss rod tension correct) then you just need to wind down the saddles at the bridge to lower the action, then adjust the intonation. I’m sure there’s lots of info online on how to do that.
I think a lot of modern P basses are 1.625" wide now, my 2 week old American professional is anyway, and although wider than my player jag bass (jazz spec neck), it's still managable for my stunted Pinky (my pinky's are about an inch shorter than my ring fingers)
It's good to understand the mechanics of how to fret properly - it's not a pinch between thumb and fingers, it's pivoting the bass around your body and balancing the fingers pulling the strings onto the fretboard against your lower right arm on the top of the body. You can play without using your thumb at all, if you want....the thumb is then more for location as much as being an active part of fretting. You don't need a lot of pinkie strength if you're using your (left) arm, IYSWIM
J and P basses are the same width at the bridge (3/4” string spacing) it’s the nut end of the neck where the difference is most obvious (J=1.5” nut, P=1.75” nut).
I think a lot of modern P basses are 1.625" wide now,
hmmmm..... interesting that youve given me the sizes of each, so i just went to check mine. its 1.5" at the nut end! (the nut being that top white line above the 1st fret on the photo below yes?) so is it a jazz neck?
it says precision but its obviously been modded with a new head anyway so whoever did it could have written anything on it.
It's good to understand the mechanics of how to fret properly - it's not a pinch between thumb and fingers, it's pivoting the bass around your body and balancing the fingers pulling the strings onto the fretboard against your lower right arm on the top of the body. You can play without using your thumb at all, if you want....the thumb is then more for location as much as being an active part of fretting. You don't need a lot of pinkie strength if you're using your (left) arm, IYSWIM
short answer is i dont see what you mean at this point, ill practice that mindset tonight when i have another play for a bit.
thanks
Like a seesaw. The pivot point is on your hip / thigh and your fingers are pullin the neck round, counterbalanced by the forearm of your plucking hand.
“It's good to understand the mechanics of how to fret properly - it's not a pinch between thumb and fingers, it's pivoting the bass around your body and balancing the fingers pulling the strings onto the fretboard against your lower right arm on the top of the body.”
If that was truly the case then having your bass on a long strap wouldn’t work, especially when slapping or playing with a pick.
It’s not a pinch but it is a squeeze between the fretting fingers and the thumb or closed hand.
OK, it's not solely a pinch, the arm does some of the work, there are of course exceptions.
video.....
thanks, ill have a play tonight, see if it makes sense to me.
anyways...... looking at that video the guitar seems to be the same width from bridge to nut. mine is tapered, and so at 1.5" at the nut, have i actually got a jazz neck with a P sticker do you think?
“I think a lot of modern P basses are 1.625" wide now”
You’re quite right! And now I realise my Stingray isn’t 1.75” either but it feels a lot wider than 1.5” (in a good way).
”it says precision”
Fender have quite history of mixing things up with Precisions and Jazzes. The original Mark Hoppus Jazz bass has a P pickup and a P neck - only the body is J shape!
Fender have quite history of mixing things up with Precisions and Jazzes. The original Mark Hoppus Jazz bass has a P pickup and a P neck - only the body is J shape!
not sure if its fender, or whoever swapped it around tbh. what it does highlight tho is that i was thinking of considering a jazz neck to make fretting easier, whereas it looks like im actually at the easiest now! sadly it can only get more difficult if i were to try a regular untapered precision.
Nut width isn’t the only determining factor though. Profile has a lot to do with it. My Vintera P is modelled after a 50’s bass and is fat and round. Others may have the same nut width, but a thinner front to back depth. The shape also changes as well.
P and J only refers to the pick up styles. Neck style varies a lot.
https://images.app.goo.gl/rqnreiwCkhzHyTvF7
Can’t work out how to link, you’ll just need to click.
Yes, my custom five has a wide neck (for the extra string!) but is very shallow from the back with a very flat fretboard. Some old P’s have “baseball bat” necks because they’re super deep and round like holding a baseball bat.
On another note, I finally sorted out my updated pedalboard (and actually cut and painted some plywood to mount it on). It’s big for studio use (unless I can be bothered to hunt down some gigs) and ease of stomping the right switch at the right time. Quite pleased! Need to figure out the new compressor pedal, haven’t used one since the ‘90s…
well i gave that 'no thumb' technique a go and i see what you mean, but i cant really do it, its a lot more difficult.
so much as id like to think i could make life easier for me by doing that, and also stretching fingers more than microshifting, i think at this stage i really need to just do whats 'easiest' for me. its not like theyre bad habits or anything and i can slowly get a little more dexterity the more i play, hopefully.
on module 4 of bassbuzz now. found the first 3 modules really easy, its just starting to ramp up a little with crossing strings now.
Not saying don't use your thumb at all, other than as an exercise, just that the power in the fretting doesn't just come from a vice like grip between thumb and fingers.
i think at this stage i really need to just do whats 'easiest' for me. its not like theyre bad habits or anything and i can slowly get a little more dexterity the more i play, hopefully.
Agreed, this is supposed to be fun and we all want to play recognisable tunes and bass lines rather than endless scales and arpeggios. But just be careful that 'what's easiest' doesn't become bad habits, because while you may get so far by doing the wrong things well, when that runs out you need to unlearn them all again before you can progress again.
But it has to be fun!!!
yeah, funnily enough one of the lessons ive just watched mentioned trying that no thumb technique just for an experiment. and no, ill try to stick to whatever he advises so no bad habits 🙂
I’ll comment on several subjects here because, for me at least this forum is still painfully slow - it’s easier to do it all in one hit.
First - action and setup. This is a very individual thing, of course, but this is how it goes for me........
Neck relief - about 0.1mm with a capo at the first fret and the string held down at the 17th fret. Any further than that, the truss rod isn’t going to adjust anything (unless you have a 26 or 28 fret neck).
Action - (again with a capo at the first fret and measured at the 12th fret). Typically for me around 1.5mm on the G and 1.7mm on the E. My lowest setup is currently 1.35mm on the G and 1.55mm on the E. This is on my Peavey Palaedium, which, to be honest, could go lower than that. Always with D’Addario 45/100 or 45/95 strings, usually NYXL or XT on all my basses, except for TI Jazz Flats on my ‘93 fretless MM Sterling.
Thumb position - it’s simple, if you want the maximum finger span then your thumb has to be either on the thickest part of the neck or slightly towards the treble side. This won’t be optimal further up the neck though, but then you don’t need the span either, up there. I don’t get this practicing without the thumb business - no violinist, cellist or double bass player has ever been told this, so why electric bass players? The thumb *does* balance the pressure of the fingers, or at least in my world it does - like picking up a beer glass or anything you care to name really, and if your bass is properly setup you don’t need much pressure anyway. Try playing double bass without using your thumb........
If you need any inspiration or you really feel that you need to watch tuition-type videos then search out anything and everything that Jeff Berlin has produced. I pretty much guarantee that you’ll learn a lot, in all sorts of ways. Listen to his albums too, especially his latest “Jack Songs”. Listen to his work with Bill Bruford and Allan Holdsworth - I’ve been fortunate to see him live several times and he is right up there with the very best - along with Brian Bromberg and Stanley Clarke he’s probably my favourite bassist.
Here he is with the slightly annoying Scott Devine https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1GFV7fKNDjQ&t=703s
One thing he says that is very true - practically all rock and pop bassists are Self Taught...
I’ll have to watch that JB video - despite (or maybe because of) reading his columns in BP mag years ago, and then finally hearing some of his music via streaming/youtube recently I’ve always had him marked down as a fusion noodler who only makes music for other musicians. He often references Jack Bruce as a big influence though which is reassuring.
P.S. I like Scott though! 😉
P.P.S. That’s impressively precise relief and action set-up! I think I have close to zero relief in my necks and the action getting on for twice as high but I do pluck quite hard at times.
I’m not obsessive about setup, to be honest - I just adjust relief, nut height and action until it feels right to me . In other words, close to what I’ve become accustomed to. I just grabbed the Palaedium and measured it, simply because I know that it’ll always have the lowest action and most accurate neck relief of any of my basses - it’s just what it happened to be.
I suppose that I must just like “fusion noodlers” - people like Stanley Clarke, Brian Bromberg, the late Victor Bailey, Larry Klein, Randy Jackson etc etc - plus Jeff Berlin obviously. And, noodlers or not, these guys have more soul and more groove than you, I and anyone else put together. Listen to Victor Bailey with Madonna or Randy Jackson with Jean Luc Ponty - I wish I had it, that indefinable “something”, it’s within them, that’s the only way I can put it.
You’ll notice Jaco isn’t on my list - he just never did it for me, even though I’ve played a lot of fretless over the years. Strange, really.
interesting - I was trying the thumbless thing last night, I found that it's true that I didn't need the thumb for grip pressure as per Adam Neely rationale, but a lack of hand and arm stability means I want it back on there, just need to remember to keep the finger pressure low because you don't need to force it. Interesting that I've also organically moved the thumb to beyond the index not inbetween the index and middle and this allows for a tensionless fret hand/arm (this is making me sound dead pro like and really this isn't the case!)
btw - Adam Neely is brilliant, I love his youtube and I need to go and see his band at some point when they are next in Manchester
One thing he says that is very true - practically all rock and pop bassists are Self Taught...
I think that can be said of most rock and pop musicians.
I’m not obsessive about setup, to be honest - I just adjust relief, nut height and action until it feels right to me . In other words, close to what I’ve become accustomed to. I just grabbed the Palaedium and measured it, simply because I know that it’ll always have the lowest action and most accurate neck relief of any of my basses - it’s just what it happened to be.
I guess that's the same as how I do it - I lower it as low as it can without it buzzing and then usually go too low and have to bring it up a bit more because it's buzzing when I don't want it to (obviously sometimes you want to get fret buzz). And that lands me in this ~3mm region (higher on the low strings, lower on the high strings, because of the excursion).
I suppose that I must just like “fusion noodlers” - people like Stanley Clarke, Brian Bromberg, the late Victor Bailey, Larry Klein, Randy Jackson etc etc - plus Jeff Berlin obviously. And, noodlers or not, these guys have more soul and more groove than you, I and anyone else put together. Listen to Victor Bailey with Madonna or Randy Jackson with Jean Luc Ponty - I wish I had it, that indefinable “something”, it’s within them, that’s the only way I can put it.
Each to their own, but other than Stanley Clarke I've never clicked with the music from those players. Absolutely love Jaco though! But regarding soul and groove, I like what I do on the bass and I feel I express myself deeply through my writing and playing - I'm sure they can play circles around me in a fusion context, especially soloing, but I'm confident of my ability to lay down as deep a groove as any of them, and I don't think I'm completely delusional!
I watched that Jeff Berlin interview this morning and came away thinking that he certainly talks some sense regarding music education (it's all the same stuff from his old Bass Player Magazine columns) but that I don't think much of any of the playing he did, I never felt much pocket happening, so I'd like to listen to some stuff where he's being a sideman and having to play bass bass rather than lead bass. I also think that the risk of such a constrained approach to teaching is that it limits you in your writing because you focus too much on doing what is correct rather than finding things that sound good in interesting ways. I do think it's very effective if your job is to turn up and play the right notes as a backing musician but I've never really wanted to do that...
I was at The Bug Club last night, had a spot right near the front, and was watching Tilly the bassist closely. She's tiny, about 5' and has signed merch for me in the past and has teeny hands, and doesn't hardly stretch at all - most of her fretting is with almost fingers together and lots of hand movement. She'll use forefinger and pinkie to cover sometimes 2 frets where I can cover 3 with index and middle with my mitts.
She's tiny, about 5' and has signed merch for me in the past and has teeny hands, and doesn't hardly stretch at all - most of her fretting is with almost fingers together and lots of hand movement.
It works! It’s a very effective funk technique and it’s also important if you’re running lots of distortion, you have to mute the strings in every way possible.
Back in the ‘90s I bought this video by the legendary Rocco Prestia, one of the greatest funk bassists ever. Check out his technique, both hands!
Had a go at the thumbless technique and it was easier than I expected. Neck control was another thing. Bass was swinging about like on of those inflatable characters outside used car lots on American TV.
Swapped back to my jazz bass after a few weeks on my P with flat wounds. Strings felt like sandpaper in comparison. So much easier to make big jumps around the fretboard though. Severely tempted to get a jazz neck conversion for the P. Love the sound of a classic P on flats, but my hands think otherwise.
went to watch my mates lad last night, his bands 2nd gig 🙂
i was really impressed with them/him, he's self-taught after a bit of a start with his dad. watching him, and the bass player from the next band, it made me realise id like to be able to play with a pick rather than 2 finger plucking. ill obviously keep plucking away as per the bassbuzz course, but the end goal will be using a pick. bit sad but i was fascinated watching him, wondering how he kept hitting the right string with the pick when you cant anchor your thumb 😀
(hopefully the link will work, no idea how to insert it so just copied and pasted the address)
@chiefgrooveguru i also noticed that he was using a Barefaced cab 🙂 of course i told him that ive been getting advice from the owner 😉
I like playing with a pick too, there's something about it, but my god, it starts to sound messy. Much harder to mute the open E with no floating or anchored thumb.
I try to kind of palm mute with the heel\outside edge of my pick hand, but I notice that bass player doing the fret hand thumb mute thing. I see that quite a lot, but find it so awkward. Is that worth pursuing for pick players?
A thing that I’ve never really wanted to do (playing with a pick) and so have never devoted any time to it - plus whenever I’ve tried it I could never get a tone that I liked enough to want to persevere and get better at it.
Anyway, it’s too late for this old dog to learn new tricks - what I really need to do is pare the number of basses that I have down to two or three that I really want to keep around, instead of the (I think) nine that are knocking about the house at the minute. Otherwise, when I shuffle off this mortal coil my poor wife will be left with them to deal with and not really have much idea what to do with them or what they’re worth - mind you, nothing is worth that much these days, I might end up donating them to some young impoverished players.
what I really need to do is pare the number of basses that I have down to two or three that I really want to keep around, instead of the (I think) nine that are knocking about the house at the minute.
what are you selling? 😉
double post
went to watch my mates lad last night, his bands 2nd gig 🙂
@chiefgrooveguru i also noticed that he was using a Barefaced cab 🙂 of course i told him that ive been getting advice from the owner 😉
They’re rocking! I get very excited the rare times I see a Barefaced cab in the wild, although that may be because I don’t get out much due to small children…
If you want to play with a pick I’d stop trying to learn to play with your fingers and concentrate on pick technique. Hardly any punk is fingerstyle so that would match better with your name here! 😉
I hardly ever play bass with a pick but I’ll do fake pick stuff with fingernails (fingernail(s) for downstrokes, thumbnail for upstrokes). Picks aren’t just for rock and metal and punk though - check out Bobby Vega for amazing funk and Steve Swallow for incredible jazz (bebop etc).
This new forum works pretty well on a computer but it’s so hard to post on on a phone!
I’m not sure what I’ll be getting rid of yet, because I haven’t decided what I’m going to keep. There’s a 93 MM Sterling fretless that will have to stay, because my wife bought it for me and it’s a beautiful thing - from back when they still fitted string mutes and could be bothered to recess the neck and battery cover plates.
Other than that they’re all Peavey, apart from the GR Lasido Z1 and a Yamaha BB374FL (both fretless).