[Closed] barefoot running - the truth about that

Is that a serious question?

It's a rhetorical one. I got much faster by thinking. Of course I have continued to improve via training, but thinking still worked very well. Still not seeing why it's such a bad thing.

Do you think about your style when you are running? Do you literally think about your foot strike etc mid stride?

Yes. I try to get used to doing it right, and I experiment with a few different ideas during a run. Training isn't all about legs and lungs, is it?

You may have naturally done it right from the start, I was naturally doing it wrong. So it seems appropriate to try and do it right, doesn't it?

Or are you saying that technique is not important in running?

Based on this, but without knowing what speeds you are running, I would guess that you had to run faster in order to forefoot strike successfully.

Well no, the time I did it was on a treadmill, so the speed was the same. I just found it dramatically easier.

Are you suggesting that I suddenly gained a minute over the course of a few days and then ended up forefoot striking as a consequence?

Well no, the time I did it was on a treadmill, so the speed was the same. I just found it dramatically easier.

Are you suggesting that I suddenly gained a minute over the course of a few days and then ended up forefoot striking as a consequence?

Eh? So you did or didn't lose a minute over night?

I think that if you'd gone out and done some sprint intervals your legs would've worked it out.

Or are you saying that technique is not important in running?

Bit mischevious of you, you rascal. 🙂

No technique is hugely important but in my opinion is a "by product" of striving for speed. Having said that since I (and many faster runners)were trounced many years ago by a scruffy looking runner who looked awful warming up (Hugh Jones) "style" "form" "technique" is not everything!
I do think there is a "rough" correlation between those things and the surface and distance involved.
Very generally track runners tend to be more stylish and the longer the distance gets the less important (although still very much so) style becomes.
If you watch a long distance race there are occasopnally less stylish runners who are very effective. Having said that even marathon runners have track background now unlike 20 years ago.

I'm confused now, how does the treadmill figure into this? the speed was the same so it wasn't quicker, you just found it easier?

I think that's an interesting question. It's one way to classify runners, those that think about things, those that don't. Same as those that think about the discomfort of working hard, and those that tend to zone out.

One guy I know spent so long working on form, he almost never just 'went out for a run' for around 12 months. Drills, intervals, stances, etc. That would kill me. Mind you, he now earns a nice little second income Pose coaching.

Another really handy fell runner (England vet) often goes on about 'getting his breathing right'. I have no idea what he's talking about 🙂

No technique is hugely important but in my opinion is a "by product" of striving for speed.

Well, not for me, I can testify. A more efficient gait means more speed for the same effort. Much like swimming.

Actually, I should clarify there. I have always done forefoot striking when running sufficiently fast, but only at the kind of pace I could keep up for 200m. On the treadmill what I actually did was run as if I were sprinting, and that's what made it lots easier.

those that think about things, those that don't.

Those that don't think about it and don't have naturally good technique are those that hate running and don't do it.

I managed to go from a hater to an enjoyer by sorting my technique out. I didn't just give up because I hated being crap.

Well, not for me, I can testify. A more efficient gait means more speed for the same effort. Much like swimming.

What training distances/frequency are we talking about?

I'm talking about ANY running that isn't sprinting.

I'm confused now, how does the treadmill figure into this? the speed was the same so it wasn't quicker, you just found it easier?

Phil - yes. I was on the treadmill, and thought I'd try running on my toes - result, much easier. Then next time I went outside to try the same technique and found myself to be a minute faster (or some large figure, I forget).

I posted about it on here in fact.

What training distances/frequency are we talking about?

+1

I read something by Stephen McGregor who's done a lot of studying into running for you running geeks...

McGregor’s studies indicate that there is no such thing as good running form. Rather, skillful running is the result of an unconscious, evolutionary process wherein each runner’s unique body finds its own best way to run economically, resulting in a form that is slightly different from that of any other runner.

Now go out there and run.

I didn't just give up because I hated being crap.

I suspect you are not crap and anyone who perseveres is an athlete in my book 🙂

Are you suggesting that I suddenly gained a minute over the course of a few days and then ended up forefoot striking as a consequence?

No, worded like that would suggest it (the forefoot striking) was a by product of running faster and was not a concious decission.

I said maybe in order to move away from a heel to a forefoot strike, as a concious decision, you [b]had[/b] to run faster. As heel striking is more natural below a certain speed*.

The fact that you then found forefoot striking easier is the by product.

Basicly, 'running faster allowed you to run faster (by allowing you to forefoot strike)' not 'forefoot striking allowed you to run faster'.

EDIT:
*I'm not claiming this as fact, just what I believe.

...As heel striking is more natural below a certain speed*.

EDIT:
*I'm not claiming this as fact, just what I believe.

and you're wrong 🙂

try running on the spot, with a heel strike.

how natural does that feel?

McGregor’s studies indicate that there is no such thing as good running form. Rather, skillful running is the result of an unconscious, evolutionary process wherein each runner’s unique body finds its own best way to run economically, resulting in a form that is slightly different from that of any other runner.

would that also be an argument against using padded built up 'corrective' shoes to run in? because they would surely make it harder to feel your 'natural' running style?

I suspect you are not crap and anyone who perseveres is an athlete in my book

Yay!

Imma athlete. 🙂

Not you DD your still pants ! 😉

🙁

No, worded like that would suggest it (the forefoot striking) was a by product of running faster and was not a concious decission.

No, it was as conscious as any decision could be. I thought 'hey I wonder what it would be like to run as if I were sprinting, but slower? Cos you know, the achilles and calf are meant to work like a spring, right?'

I thought 'hey I wonder what it would be like to run as if I were sprinting, but slower?

So you used the technique that you'd normally use to sprint to run faster... madness.

Why the sarcasm? I wasn't sprinting, so it wasn't obvious to use my sprint technique for not sprinting, was it? There's a big difference between sprinting and distance running, as you well know.

Because to me it seems like phil.w knows you better than you know yourself...

Regardless... run more.

Bit of an insulting thing to say Yeti. Feeling down about this whole thing now. You lot telling me I'm a fool and you know best, despite having not been there.

This is an interesting conversation so another serious question.

There's a big difference between sprinting and distance running

Is there? I dont agree. Where does sprinting end and distance running begin? There is a continuum of speed between say a 50m race and a 10,000m race and of course running 50m will mean you run only on the furthest point of your foot but why would you not still stay on your forefoot? There is no reason to then run on your heel.
Both events are "sprinting" to some degree.

I wasn't sprinting, so it wasn't obvious to use my sprint technique for not sprinting, was it? There's a big difference between sprinting and distance running, as you well know.

forgive me if i'm being an idiot, but:

a)i thought the only difference was the speed you did it at (thus impacting on how long you can do it for... the faster you want to go the more exaggerated the movements become)

and/or

b)if you already knew so much about technique how come you had to think/change/develop to work out that runnings easier when you dont slam your ankle into the ground?

iConfused

Where does sprinting end and distance running begin?

Next to the pile of vomit by the side of the track 😀

sprinting: properly on your toes, arms pumping away.

running: a bit more like mr soft...

You lot telling me I'm a fool and you know best, despite having not been there.

Easy tiger I'm not calling anyone a fool I love your enthusiasm on the running threads and certainly not trying to put you off. Sorry if it came across like that. 😥

try running on the spot, with a heel strike.
how natural does that feel?

Tried it, your right, there's nothing natural about running on the spot...

In order to run on the spot you have to use a high knee lift, this is more similar to running at speed. Nothing like running at speeds slow enough to mean you are more likely to heel strike.

You lot telling me I'm a fool and you know best, despite having not been there.

In order to run on the spot you have to use a high knee lift,

no i don't.

i must be doing it wrong!

🙂

my running on the spot style is pretty much the same as my running at 4min/k style.

Sorry... I did warn you I was going to get offensive if it's any relief?

It's also nowhere near as offensive as I thought I was going to be...

Where does sprinting end and distance running begin?

Exactly at your anaerobic threshold, I think.

surfer - I shouldn't have said 'you lot' I should have said 'Yeti' 🙂 You are contributing nicely, and it's appreciated.

Philc

- I didn't know anything about technique at first.
- I had an idea (unprompted, I hadn't read anything or heard of barefoot style) and I tried it out.
- At the same speed on the treadmill, it felt much easier.
- Over the same distance as my previous running routes, I was much quicker.
- After this discovery, I went to google and found a lot of information about barefoot style
- I then started thinking even more about technique, resulting in lots more experimentation during my own runs.

I used to think that I naturally knew how to run distance because everyone does, I realised I was very wrong.

a)i thought the only difference was the speed you did it at (thus impacting on how long you can do it for)

No because thats true of every distance.

You are contributing nicely

I'm learning, DD will be along to bollock me soon if I misbehave! 😳

molgrips - Member

- I didn't know anything about technique at first.
- I had an idea (unprompted, I hadn't read anything or heard of barefoot style) and I tried it out.
- At the same speed on the treadmill, it felt much easier.
- Over the same distance as my previous running routes, I was much quicker.
- After this discovery, I went to google and found a lot of information about barefoot style
- I then started thinking even more about technique, resulting in lots more experimentation during my own runs.

- i didn't know anything about technique at first.
- i knew my shoes were causing me pain
- my doctor wanted to operate.
- i realised that 1 pair of shoes didn't hurt me. i originally bought them for work, but i found i could even run in them, i was very happy!
- i went to a running shop to buy some shoes similar to the now knackered pair of clarks
- they tried to sell me several pairs of orthotics.
- i bought a pair of minimus.
- then someone gave me a copy of 'born to run'
- now i'm one of those ****ty running evangelists.

Philc

- I didn't know anything about technique at first.
- I had an idea (unprompted, I hadn't read anything or heard of barefoot style) and I tried it out.
- At the same speed on the treadmill, it felt much easier.
- Over the same distance as my previous running routes, I was much quicker.
- After this discovery, I went to google and found a lot of information about barefoot style
- I then started thinking even more about technique, resulting in lots more experimentation during my own runs.

I used to think that I naturally knew how to run distance because everyone does, I realised I was very wrong.

fair play 🙂 the way you mentioned contemplating sprint technique led me to (wrongly on my part) assume that at the point you already knew techniquey type stuff. myself... i dont run, if i did i'd stick to short distances as i'm built for power not for distance. used to be the second fastest in my school on the short distance stuff, boringly average for the EPIC and death-defying 1500meters. i'm the same with riding i suppose, the thought of riding further than 1500meters is exhausting!

i dont run, if i did i'd stick to short distances as i'm built for power not for distance.

you laugh yeti, but its troo.

i'll race you on sunday.... 5am, local school field with faded white markings of an old 400meter race track. barefoot, damp grass, the smell of sunrise..... BRING IT ON!

Mate, we'll go at it teeth and elbows... victor takes the loser as his bride.

Molly - I'm sowwy. You do know yourself better than we do... it's just the way you phrase things sometimes I guess.

I'm sure Yeti once promised us a 5min mile...

I got distracted with swimming...

I intend on getting to that speed by running more.

i will DESTROY him with a 4minute mile. after all if i can handle a 1500meter all dayer i'm pretty sure i can whip past him on a pathetic mile.

I have found that my technique has improved the faster I have got. It certainly wasn't the other way round. I do have different shoes with less cushioning for running sprint and threshold intervals. I also use them for anything off road.

I have found that my technique has improved the faster I have got

Its interesting that years ago when I trained a couple of times a week on the track if I missed a couple of weeks through illness or injury the first session back (as well as the vomiting :P) I felt like my arms were flailling all over the place. It comes back after a session or two, then its just the never ending pain to worry about!

I do find it easier in terms of body mechanics to run faster - it all seems to come together much better. However it's harder on the lungs and legs of course. I do train for that of course, and I have become quicker.

wow,

Slow runs for me 9min/mile pace I can run happily on my heels, no pain no worries BTW Molly, I'm "slamming" my foot into the ground. I can heel strike right up to pretty much my faster runs 20 mins for a 5km, at which point I'm on my toes.

Slightly OT but check out the lovely colour schemes on next year's new inov-8 models 😀

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Jeezus, they're more gopping than ever.

Mind you, I've never seen anyone who looks that shit, run that well. 🙂

BTW Molly, I'm "slamming" my foot into the ground

Well to be fair I can do that at 9m pace, but I don't really want to run at that pace! What's most important I've found is where your foot hits the ground. In heel striking I was putting my foot out in front, which was slowing me down. Now its always underneath me.

I like the top one (trailroc 155). Reminds me of the chewits and opal fruits I use to love as a kid.

Opps, meant to say im 'not' slamming my foot into the ground. Soz.

anyway maybe all a bit useless now anyway, as yesterday twisted my ankle on a curb, it's come up like a balloon and it's really sore 😥

Cant put any weight on it this morning, and nearly fell down the stairs...

Cant put any weight on it this morning, and nearly fell down the stairs...

I'm sure if you just think hard enough about why it's hurting emsz, it'll improve. In an instant.

Twisted ankle... bummer.. what shoes were you wearing? 😉

Re slamming things into the ground, I weigh a lot more than you.. I suspect this has something to do with how we start to run.

Was wearing flats doing sprints. My inov8 are v flexi but not very supportive. My own fault for no concentrating. It's really sore, put ice on it last night but it's still swollen.

I'm sure if you just think hard enough about why it's hurting emsz, it'll improve. In an instant

That's a proper laugh out loud moment right there!

My comiserations emsz. Happens to us all.

In other news my foam roller does seem to be helping my knee after all, despite my scepticism that ITBS was the cause.

In other news my foam roller does seem to be helping my knee after all, despite my scepticism that ITBS was the cause.

No, but you can say you offered me advice which, when taken with other people's advice was deemed to be worth a £15 gamble.

You may feel proud 🙂

Mol - have you tried doing the knee exercises I mentioned to you a few months back??

Which ones? I forget.

ITB can be a bugger to shift. Not a big fan of stretching but post run I think it helps, Foam roller better and you can roll it so hard it brings tears to you eyes. 😀

Check your facebook Mol.

It didn't bring tears to my eyes but it brought a LOT of foul language to my mouth.

I don't think I have that bad of a case (if at all) because the symptoms I read about are all far worse. First roller session was agony, the second wasn't so bad, now it's alright. So hopefully I've caught it early if that's what I have.

I did a different 5km and went as quickly as I could, without pain. It was a different route though.. but pretty slow nonetheless.

Yeti I don't see any fb activity...

It's where I originally msg'd you... I think. Have a look in the history.

Essentially though it's all about correcting the imbalances that occur as a result of training hard on the bike and moving in a limited range of motion.

Step downs, step ups, side lunges, box jumps, ham-glute raises, calf raises, deep squats, hamstring curls with the gym ball, bridges, etc etc. High reps, low weight, win, win, win.

I did check the history, I don't see anything.

I had been looking for exercises to cross over from cycling..

You must've ignored my advice and deleted it then!

Step ups and step downs are probably the most important.

Try focusing on hamstrings and glutes - they are likely to be weaker than quads from cycling. Plus step ups and downs too. Also one legged dips, in fact, do single leg stuff for pretty much everything otherwise you'll never sort the imbalance as the stronger leg will end up doing all the work.

Also one legged dips, in fact, do single leg stuff for pretty much everything otherwise you'll never sort the imbalance as the stronger leg will end up doing all the work.

Yeah this I have problems with. My left leg is pretty buggered an is mostly along for the ride rather than contributing much, but so far my attempts at one legged squats with it screw it up even more.

so far my attempts at one legged squats with it screw it up even more.

Try Bulgarian split squats with dumbbells :

Cheers, I might give that a try. The extra stability of the other leg looks like it could help.

I don't really recognise an imbalance between left and right legs. When I said imbalance I meant some muscles stronger than others, from cycling.

Too give some context of the imbalance, the year before last was the first in about 10 years when I could consistently raise or lower my bodyweight up a stair step using just my left leg.

Ian, just think about it as you're doing it. If you concentrate hard enough, I reckon you'd see an improvement. Overnight.

I was just about to, but checked my training spreadsheet and noticed today's a green day which means a concentration rest day.
Tomorrow's a brown day - hangover recovery. Friday's another rest day, followed by another brown. I guess I could try and double book a day, but I don't want to risk overtraining whilst tapering.

Ian, just think about it as you're doing it. If you concentrate hard enough, I reckon you'd see an improvement. Overnight.

If you don't think about it hard enough then you might even see an improvement the night before you start to think about it.

I'm a semi-convert to barefoot type running, with some proper thin shoes on the way.

I find that I have 2 distinct running styles, my lazy one where it's a mid-foot strike, but the heel does come down, and what feels like my more efficient one, where I have a longer stride, and flick off with my toes. The latter is faster and feels like it should use less energy, but requires concentration, works my shin muscles (don't know what they're called) more and when I'm tired I tend to revert back to my lazy slow style.

I have been making more of a concious effort to mid/forestrike recently, and certainly do more so in my lightweight race shoes (Nike Free 3.0's) as opposed to my training shoes (Nike Structure 15's).

However, during hill training this morning, it occurred to me that running down steepish hills it's very difficult not to heel-strike, certainly if you want to control your speed rather than sprinting down out of control!

So what's the deal with going down hills with proper thin barefoot shoes?

For reference I've only just started running again, and been training for about 2 months. I can currently do a 39 minute 10k and a 1:32 half, aiming for a sub 3 hour for my first full in August.

Cheers, Rich

I used to do everything in the Nike Free 3.0's - you really don't want to be heal striking in those as you will really do yourself a mischief. I ditched the 3.0's as the V.4 is a bit crappy; breath ability issues and splitting after only 24 miles use (but that's another story).

Running downhill you want to be on your toes, it is slower until you learn to let fly, but it's what you need to be doing. Practice, practice, practice.

Oh and rich; if your doing those times in Free 3.0's then you can assume a faster time with a different shoe. I've found them to be quite slow in comparison to firmer soled shoes of the same sort of genre (Saucony Kinvara's). The v4's have gone some way to address this with the new sole configuration but, as I mentioned before, the uppers don't work with my flat feet and tear after very little use.

When descending try to imagine that your bounding a small log and want to get your foot as close as damn it under it on your push off; this way you extend your toes into the ground, dropping your heel at the very last moment as your body rolls over the foot position. I sometimes try to imagine being that lizard skipping over a pond......lightly, lightly does it. If you're slapping down hard your doing it wrong.

Keep us posted on your marathon time; I'm about the same as you on the other distances but havn't got a road marathon under my belt as yet.

Thanks for the pointers. The my recent PB's (which I hope to better pretty shortly with continued training) have been in my Structure 15's, I have only used the 3.0's for a few training runs so far just to try them out.

I went into a decent running shop in Cardiff and said I wanted a training shoe and a race shoe (mainly for triathlons) and after analysis on the treadmill that's what I left with. Interesting to hear that the 3.0s are slow, doesn't sound ideal for a race shoe!

I'll look into whether some Saucony Kinavaras would suit my feet/style when I'm next in the UK.

My first marathon is in India, Hyderabad, which is apparently about 10 minutes slower for a fast runner than somewhere like London, due to the hills, and it'll be warm too. The general consensus is that a 3 hour here would be more like a 2:50 somewhere faster, so I might be being a little ambitious with my target!

Cheers, Rich

turboferret - Member

However, during hill training this morning, it occurred to me that running down steepish hills it's very difficult not to heel-strike, certainly if you want to control your speed rather than sprinting down out of control!

So what's the deal with going down hills with proper thin barefoot shoes?

i haven't got a clue, when i've figured it out i'll let you know...

my current technique - honed over several years of fell running (terrible results - really, don't ask):

if it's a gradual downslope - the kind of thing you could ride your bike up: i try and maintain a forefoot strike.

if it's very steep - and i'm too scared to 'let her go': i land on my heels and it hurts a bit.
thankfully this type of slope doesn't usually go on for very long, and the surface is often loose (grass, mud, etc.) which takes the edge off the impact.

wild arm flailing seems to help.

i should say that i'm really very bad at descending, everyone else just piles past me - going twice as fast with little apparent effort...

Down is definitely my strength in the fells and this seems to translate to downhill on the roads. I try to point my toes downhill and land on the balls of my feet. With a high cadence and relatively short stride length is doesn't feel like I'm overextending or braking too much with my quads. Oh, and planning where to put my feet 3-4 steps in advance.

I tried Adizero Adios (haile's shoes) but probably did too much too soon in them and ended up taking too long to recover from each session. I now run in the Adizero Bostons which I absolutely love.