A few people saying here that the A24 cyclepath is potholed and a poor surface. I've only ever ridden the south side of it which is brilliantly smooth. Presumably very different on the north side then?
A9.
There are decent alternatives almost the whole way from Perth to Inverness (barring the gravel-strewn track at Drumochter) but folk just seem to want to take the "main" road regardless. Of course, a lot of these are LEJOGers looking for the shortest/fastest route.
As somebody said above, it's fine if you're on 30+ tyres and a robust bike, I wouldn't want to take a skinny road machine down it** well, anywhere but that's not the point.
I agree - is part of it that people are riding bikes that aren't really fit for purpose for what they need and blaming poor infrastructure when part of the issue is having the wrong tool for the job?
I have a "skinny road machine" with 25mm tyres and there are only a handful of roads in the south east that it is actually really comfortable to ride on.
Are road bikes the equivalent of trying to drive an F1 car on the road?
[quote=dknwhy ]Are [b]road[/b] bikes the equivalent of trying to drive an F1 car on the [b]road[/b]? Err....
Are road bikes the equivalent of trying to drive an F1 car on the road?
They shouldn't be, and any road that's unpleasant to ride a road bike on is likely to be unpleasant in any other vehicle - in a car you might not be risking a puncture, but it'll probably be noisy, which isn't good for either you as a driver or anyone who lives near the road.
A few people saying here that the A24 cyclepath is potholed and a poor surface.
It's hard to see, but this is the bit I'm on about - surface has worn away
https://goo.gl/maps/yQ2yG1EQohB2
and a bit further on - lumps every few metres.
https://goo.gl/maps/pCcphqwds7J2
From memory, there are worse bits and better bits. I can see why people don't use it.
The other side does look nicer (& it's sunny 🙂 )
https://goo.gl/maps/nwQU6zzHuU42
**** me this site is infested by some dumb ****s.
Are road bikes the equivalent of trying to drive an F1 car on the road?
As has been said, road bikes are designed to be fast and efficient on the road, much like cars. If you want road bikes to use cycle paths they need to be built and maintained to the same standards as the roads then it would be fine. It's a bit like saying we should cut back investment in the road infrastructure, let it all go to ruin, not bother fixing pot holes and cracks, and that we should all just buy 4x4's to compensate for that 🙂
It's hard to see, but this is the bit I'm on about - surface has worn away
and a bit further on - lumps every few metres.
That looks sh*t.
scotroutes - Member
dknwhy » Are road bikes the equivalent of trying to drive an F1 car on the road?
Err....
Ok, poor choice of words but "road" bike marketing is actually selling race orientated bikes - 23mm tyres, rigid frames, low spoke count etc.
Ok, poor choice of words but "road" bike marketing is actually selling race orientated bikes - 23mm tyres, rigid frames, low spoke count etc.
They may be race bikes but they're still designed to be raced [b]on roads[/b] (though they do race much the same bikes over the cobbles at Paris Roubaix, which many cycle paths resemble.)
jimdubleyou - MemberA few people saying here that the A24 cyclepath is potholed and a poor surface.
It's hard to see, but this is the bit I'm on about - surface has worn away
https://goo.gl/maps/yQ2yG1EQohB2and a bit further on - lumps every few metres.
https://goo.gl/maps/pCcphqwds7J2From memory, there are worse bits and better bits. I can see why people don't use it.
The other side does look nicer (& it's sunny )
https://goo.gl/maps/nwQU6zzHuU42
Does indeed look a very different prospect. I'll stick on the south (until it floods again!)
Im against the ban. Live very locally to it and have no issue with cyclists on the A24...can't say id notice enough cyclists on that road to consider it an 'issue' and handily, it being a dual carriageway, there's another lane for cars to move into to overtake!! 8)
To me the junction from Westhumble Street on to the A24 is the dangerous location as cyclists cross the north bound carriage to get in the correct lane for the roundabout...seen some awful manoeuvres by car drivers & cyclists at that junction
They may be race bikes but they're still designed to be raced on roads (though they do race much the same bikes over the cobbles at Paris Roubaix, which many cycle paths resemble.)
They may be but if my commute involved the cobbles of Paris Roubaix, I wouldn't be doing it daily on a 23mm tyred road bike. Even the pros make adjustments within the UCI guidelines to make things more comfortable - wider tyres, double wrapped bars etc.
I guess i'm playing devil's advocate a little - i'm not suggesting that people shouldn't be riding those types of bikes - it's personal choice after all but i'd be pulled apart here if I decided to take my road bike to a trail centre and moan that the trail centre wasn't fit to be ridden on a road bike.
Generally, cycle paths in the UK are poor, as are many roads. They should be fit for purpose and obstruction free but they're not. I do wonder though how many of those people complaining about pot holes etc have actually taken the time to report them and follow through getting them fixed?
@Gary M yup, I said that to someone years ago about the A77 and got all the usual excuses - it's probably this or probably that when in fact it's what all paths should be like.
They did similar round here, fixed a section of completely awful path and made it fantatstic. Still the stubborn MAMILS refuse to use it even though the road is as rough as a badgers.
Couldn't make it up.
To me the junction from Westhumble Street on to the A24 is the dangerous location as cyclists cross the north bound carriage to get in the correct lane for the roundabout...seen some awful manoeuvres by car drivers & cyclists at that junction
Its called 'chicken run' on Strava! I always use the underpass on my mtb which now allows you to cycle it, so no excuses there either.
IMO, its purely selfish roadies riding on the road causing potential accidents, rather than ride on the perfectly smooth south side path. The reason the paths are there is because its not safe to cycle on the road.
The reason the paths are there is because its not safe to cycle on the road.
Obvious troll 🙂
Reason these paths are there is because of regulations requiring the provision of cycling infrastructure.
It's a bit like saying we should cut back investment in the road infrastructure, let it all go to ruin, not bother fixing pot holes and cracks, and that we should all just buy 4x4's to compensate for that
Or "Welcome to Gloucestershire" as the phrase it on road signs. 😀
Why is it so annoying cyclists are on the road? Surely it's not that difficult to overtake?
That section of road is less than 4 miles long, with roundabouts, towns and associated traffic at both ends. It's like they are cycling up the M1.
They should just make it single carriageway. Motorists can't have nice things. Too selfish and impatient.
I have to say I have mixed feelings about this (I'm a Libra, what did you expect).
I live in Epsom and know that stretch of road well having driven it a thousand times and ridden it about half that number of times on both MTB and skinny tyred road bike.
I don't like the thought of cyclists being banned from certain roads (other than motorways) because it sets a dangerous precedent.
But I have never ridden that section on the road, I always use the cycle lane (both North & South) out of a sense of self-preservation just because it's so bloomin' dangerous. I do tend to sigh when I see roadies (for it's rarely MTB'ers), riding along that section of road although I fully accept that they have every right to do so.
The riders who chance crossing the fast moving traffic as they dart out from Westhumble Street frankly just scare me. It's much easier to use the underpass
Oh and I'm not in any way a nervous rider, I cycle-commute 36 miles a day into central London and back including such perambulatory delights as Tooting High Street (the closest thing to a shoot em up video game in real life you will ever experience), Clapham Common, Elephant & Castle, Tower Bridge and/or the Embankment so I'm comfortable in traffic.
HoratioHufnagel - Member
Why is it so annoying cyclists are on the road? Surely it's not that difficult to overtake?
But why shouldn't car drivers get upset when adequate separate provision has been made for cyclists? You don't see pedestrians ignoring a footpath and running down the A24.
There are some cyclists who think that because they can legally ride somewhere, they should.
We'd get upset if ramblers start walking about on trail centre trails.
It's inflexible and selfish. There has to be give from all sides.
Car drivers have plentybof other roads they could choose to use if the bikes are in the way.
Are there any accident statistics to support the proposition that cycling that stretch is actually dangerous?
I suspect the real issue is that driving and - yes - cycling standards are poor and needy better policing.
In any event, I am firmly in the "thin end of the wedge" camp. Banning bikes on one stretch of road sets a very dodgy precedent.
They should add the A3 to that petition!
Bloody sportive every week with Boardman wannabes anywhere right out to the centre line.
With best will in the world sometimes you can end up with nowhere to go when one of them changes position and you're unable to get into the outside lane .
How someone hasn't been hit - particularly as they use the Liss roundabout is more luck than anything else.Want to do a road race?
Fine - close the road - not use a 70mph dual carriageway FFS!They should add the A3 to that petition!
Bloody sportive every week with Boardman wannabes anywhere right out to the centre line.
With best will in the world sometimes you can end up with nowhere to go when one of them changes position and you're unable to get into the outside lane .
How someone hasn't been hit - particularly as they use the Liss roundabout is more luck than anything else.Want to do a road race?
Fine - close the road - not use a 70mph dual carriageway FFS!
I'm in 100% agreement with this. Just because you are legally allowed to do it, common sense says its really not a good idea to be clogging the road up in rush out evening traffic.
Just reinforced that all cyclist are b@llends really.
Someone will get killed.
Just reinforced that I am a [s] all cyclist are[/s] b@llend[s]s[/s] really
Someone will get killed.
You mean everyone is frothing at the mouth over this and no one has actually died yet?
mrblobby - Member
Want to do a road race?
They will usually be experienced riders, riding alone, going off a 1 min intervals, outside peak traffic times (and subject to risk assessment, signage, and traffic police approval.) Really not to be confused with a sportive!
They might be in all the gear blobby but trust me they aren't riding alone a lot of the time.
It is definitely not "outside of peak times" either.
Mid whatever it is at 7pm on that stretch is idiocy.
[quote=dknwhy ]I agree - is part of it that people are riding bikes that aren't really fit for purpose for what they need and blaming poor infrastructure when part of the issue is having the wrong tool for the job?
I have a "skinny road machine" with 25mm tyres and there are only a handful of roads in the south east that it is actually really comfortable to ride on.
Are road bikes the equivalent of trying to drive an F1 car on the road?
It's a while since I've ridden a road bike in the SE, but I've been down that way plenty of times in the last few years, and can't say I've noticed the roads having got significantly worse than when I was riding a 23mm tyred (or even 20 when I was young and stupid) racer in various different places, and nor are they any worse than round here where I'm perfectly comfortable on skinny tyres. Not like a gnarr machine with fat tyres and 6" of suspension maybe, but fine if you're used to it. Cycle paths are a different matter - went riding around MK recently which is supposed to have some of the best infrastructure in the UK and some of that was pretty awful and I definitely wouldn't want to be on a racer (not great on what I was on, a geared unicycle).
Is the suggestion here that a racer isn't fit for purpose because you should be riding on the bike paths which aren't suitable for a racer rather than on the roads which are? 😯
No, it's in no way equivalent to driving an F1 car on the road.
I always use the underpass on my mtb which now allows you to cycle it, so no excuses there either.
Hmm. Haven't they just tightened up the barriers (or put fencing up to stop you riding around the outside of them) which make it *more* difficult to ride through (and impossible on a tandem/trike/bike with trailer/tag along)
I mostly end up there on a mountain bike but, out of a sense of self preservation, use the path.
Some of it is wide and smooth.
Some of it is rough and narrow with metal railings.
https://goo.gl/maps/HsAkR6PL6ts
All of it loses priority at junctions which have wide sweeps so motor vehicles can turn into them at speed.
https://goo.gl/maps/SLYmasbAQ1C2
https://goo.gl/maps/UAFFkpTa2CB2
https://goo.gl/maps/aFWn2jqjAGp
Traffic closing at 70mph over your shoulder that may decide to indicate and turn late - nice. Blind to the side road which could have traffic closing on it (mostly far faster than is safe or necessary)
that section has been 70mph for 50 years and few people stick to the new 50mph limit.
Which would seem to be the main problem. You give these motorists big wide roads and they can't even obey the few restrictions that are placed on them.
As cycle paths at the side of A Roads go, it's one of the better ones. Is is actually good? No.
Is the surface smooth (as smooth as the road?) - no. Does it drain properly? no. Is it regularly swept? No. Does it have priority over side roads (ie the same priority as traffic travelling straight on in the main carriageway - no it gives way to traffic turning on and off the A24 at every junction.
[quote=simons_nicolai-uk ]All of it loses priority at junctions which have wide sweeps so motor vehicles can turn into them at speed.
https://goo.gl/maps/SLYmasbAQ1C2
...
Does it have priority over side roads (ie the same priority as traffic travelling straight on in the main carriageway - no it gives way to traffic turning on and off the A24 at every junction.
I'm confused here - not only because some people are saying the "South" side is better, when there appears to be an East and West side and I can't work out which the South side is, but also because right opposite that is https://goo.gl/maps/Y4S2TnVcCvB2 which looks equally, if not more shit.
Do other people have ridiculously low expectations of cycle paths that "facilities" like this are considered to be good? Lack of priority at junctions is to be expected on almost all UK cycle paths and a reason on its own why I'd choose to ride the road. What's more, for all those saying the road is dangerous, looking at real objective danger and looking at those junctions I'd suggest that perception is probably misplaced - using the cycle path looks more dangerous.
Hmm. Haven't they just tightened up the barriers (or put fencing up to stop you riding around the outside of them) which make it *more* difficult to ride through (and impossible on a tandem/trike/bike with trailer/tag along)
Go and have a look now...its a designated cycle route.
I'm confused here - not only because some people are saying the "South" side is better, when there appears to be an East and West side and I can't work out which the South side is, but also because right opposite that is https://goo.gl/maps/Y4S2TnVcCvB2 which looks equally, if not more shit.
Its on the left of the Leatherhead bound carriageway and is in perfect condition currently.
Thing is, despite all the reasons people are coming up with to ride on the road, all they are doing is making motorists angry, which will at some point in time, have disastrous consequences for someone.
Which would seem to be the main problem. You give these motorists big wide roads and they can't even obey the few restrictions that are placed on them.
True, but then these motorists have driven safely on these roads at 70-80mph for decades and now the Nanny state has decreed its a 50mph for the simple fact that the A24 further towards Horsham has a poor record of deaths and they decided to tar this stretch of road with the same brush.
Thing is, despite all the reasons people are coming up with to ride on the road, all they are doing is making motorists angry, which will at some point in time, have disastrous consequences for someone.
Sad to think that just by riding on the road you can get a motorist sufficiently angry to put your life at risk 😕
Do we really need to segregate cyclists to protect them from the uncontrollable rage of some motorists? WTF is wrong with some people 🙁
Should start a petition to ban motorists from the A24.
Or lifetime bans from people not mentally stable enough to use the road network without getting in a rage at other road users/traffic.
Do we really need to segregate cyclists to protect them from the uncontrollable rage of some motorists? WTF is wrong with some people
When it is as appears to be the case that the majority of people on a cycling forum think that roads should be kept clear for the cars at the expense of bikes you can see how bad things are and how ingrained the me, me me me me culture is.
Its on the left of the Leatherhead bound carriageway and is in perfect condition currently.
No it's not. South of Westhumble road it's gravelly and broken up. Then you've got the crossing of Westhumble road, where cyclists notionally have ROW, but cars can turn in at speed, and usually (I've had exceptions) aren't expecting to give way. Then there's the barriered section alongside the roundabout, which is narrow, on a blind bend, with a broken surface. It is in then a better surface most of the way, although in autumn it gets covered with leaves, which remain most of winter because of the lack of traffic to clear them. When it rains significant parts of it flood, or it freezes and you have a skating rink to contend with.
There are half a dozen residential roads and little turn offs where cyclists have to give way to drivers who see you as target practice, and because they're blind you either chance it, or have to stop at each one to check it's clear.
Then you get the fun of trying to rejoin the road at the roundabout at the Leatherhead end without any real exit, or follow the signed route right across the neck of the junction of the road up to Bookham.
The surface isn't bad on the middle bit though, you're right. Shame about everything else.
You'd think this was the comments section on a DM article!
It's a great bit of infrastructure for a family bimble, or a mountain bike ride. It's acceptable for a road bike (I use it regularly on a 23mm-tyre-shod road bike with carbon wheels), but it's far from perfect, and in winter I'll use the road due to the decreased likelihood of ice. I'm not aware of a single fatality on that bit of road. It's not dangerous IMO. Traffic does stick to 50mph, not least because there's a speed camera.
I haven't read the whole thread but despite not being good the cycle lanes on both sides are usable - my cycle club uses the north bound one every Saturday on the way to Box Hill.
I have seen ambulances dealing with both cyclists and bikers involved in accidents on that stretch.
After my last experience a while back I wouldn't consider using the road on my own (maybe in a peloton though) the moving over to the right in preparation to do a right turn at the roundabout is just too dangerous.
The cycling lane although not good really isn't that bad. The alternative is worse imo. Although admittedly I usually only use it for the short distance between the roundabout near zig zag road and the previous roundabout.
Or lifetime bans from people not mentally stable enough to use the road network without getting in a rage at other road users/traffic.
Here here!
Or lifetime bans from people not mentally stable enough to use the road network without getting in a rage at other road users/traffic.
That would be the end of road cycling.
I'm a local and ride up that section on the MTB or road bike almost every week including yesterday evening (after a great MTB ride on Ranmore and Mickleham trails then three pints at the King William).
There are two things to consider in my mind. Is the cycle path Ok? and how dangerous is the road alternative?
So the cycle path as correctly describes (the western side, heading North to Leatherhead) is occasionally narrow and has one proper road crossing (at Westhumble) between Denbies and Leatherhead. However the road surface is mostly pretty good and it's complete segregated from the road and actually a very pleasant ride. It's also the only major cycle path in the surrey hills. That is why most cyclists use this side in both directions. Also the west side (heading south) is the easiest way to get to Boxhill if you are riding up from the south.
The road is dual carriageway and now 50mph all the way. Having lived here for 25yrs I've seen numberous accidents (mainly the Mickleham bends) and there have been fatalities. Its busy with cars and motorbikes (its a draw at Ryka's café). Why ride it when there is a pretty good cycle path. I've probably raced up the A24 more times than I've ridden it!
Actually the dangerous part is coming down from Westhumble or from Dorking and trying to go round the Burford Bridge / Ryka's roundabout to go to the Box.
Will I sign the petition - no. Will I use the A24 - no.
Do I prefer the MTB trails in the mole valley - yes! 😀
That would be the end of road cycling.
🙂
A lot of road riders don't do themselves any favours. But then years of repeated close passes, getting squeezed at traffic islands, overtakes followed by immediate left turns, getting knocked off through no fault of your own, feeling like your life is being constantly put at risk because a car driver can't possibly let their journey be delayed by a couple of seconds... that sort of thing can push you over the edge!
these motorists have driven safely on these roads at 70-80mph for decades and now the Nanny state has decreed its a 50mph for the simple fact that the A24 further towards Horsham has a poor record of deaths and they decided to tar this stretch of road with the same brush.
RTC injuries for the last 5 years on the stretch of road in question. That doesn't match any definition of 'driven safely' that I'd be happy with (and the 50mph limit has been in place for at least the last 5 years)
[img] 
[/img]
RTCs involving cyclists. Just throwing themselves into the road to escape all this hideosness
[img] 
[/img]
(from http://www.crashmap.co.uk/Search )
If cyclists aren't using a provided cycle lane, preferring to mix it up with traffic, then I'd assume there was some issue with the cycle lane
You would think so, and I'm all for cyclists being able to use the road if that's what they want to do but in some cases I can't understand why an individual would choose a road over a cycle path.
...
But people still frequently use the road and I just don't get why.
...
It's odd behavior if you ask me.
Sorry to pick on one post specifically, but this is a good example of a regularly trotted out theme.
All this does is show that [b]you[/b] don't know why people are using the road, it doesn't mean there isn't a reason, but it means you are ignorant of that reason.
Plenty of people on this thread have offered up explanations, and their own reasoning but fundamentally it comes down to the same thing every time.
- People want to travel from A to B.
- Their primary goal is normally getting there with the least amount of effort.
That is basic human nature, we always look for the easiest way to do something. For some people that means get in a car, some people either don't have cars or don't want to/can't use them, so they'll use a bus or a bike or walk, the point is that the choice of vehicle is irrelevant, their ultimate goal will be efficiency within the confines of their journey.
For some people efficiency will mean outright speed, for others it will be least amount of junctions/turnings/route changes, for some the 'effort' of dealing with traffic will mean that safety is paramount and the cycle path is actually their choice and they'll put up with the downsides, for others their priorities will mean the road is their choice.
Ultimately there will always be differing requirements and when there is only one option there will be conflict, even on a proper segregated cycle path the needs of the 'fastest route' people may get compromised by the 'safest route' people.
There are some cyclists who think that because they can legally ride somewhere, they should.
This is one of those internet facts, yes there [i]are [/i]some people like that, but they are vanishingly small in the numbers, 99.999% of bike rides choose to ride the route they do for $REASONS, and 'because I want to exercise my legal right to be there despite the hazards' is very very rarely one of them.
Whenever you see someone doing something you don't initially understand, like riding on a road you think is dangerous when there is a cycle path nearby, instead of jumping to the conclusion that 'they are idiots' ask yourself:
- why did they choose it?
- what is the knowledge [b]I [/b]lack that prevents me understnading this situation
In most cases there is a reason, a valid reason, you might make the same choice, but that doesn't make their choice wrong, it just makes their priorities different to yours.
Thing is, despite all the reasons people are coming up with to ride on the road, all they are doing is [b]making motorists angry[/b], which will at some point in time, have disastrous consequences for someone.
Comments like this are terrifying.
People using roads to go to places, how very dare they!
Most cyclists are also motorists (there is data to back this up) so its not making motorists angry, it's making a small subset of people driving cars angry. We should be dealing with that, the anger. Anger is not an appropriate or acceptable response to having to share the road with other legitimate users.
If you cant share the road without getting angry then is [b]you [/b]who should be removed from it.
Very interesting to look at the above maps. Where the cycle path is poor Dorking-Burford and there is the crossing at the Burford Bridge roundabout there are many cyclist RTA. North of that only one. There are plenty of road RTA on the whole stretch.
As for going faster on the road vs the cycle path? Really there is hardly any difference (in the past on training I've overtaken people riding the road while I was on the cycle path).
Where the cycle path is poor Dorking-Burford and there is the crossing at the Burford Bridge roundabout there are many cyclist RTA. North of that only one. There are plenty of road RTA on the whole stretch.
The problem with stats is that without a lot of additional information making sense of them is so difficult. I *suspect* there are vastly more cyclists on the stretch up to Burford Bridge in order to loop onto Box Hill - certainly I'd never have cause to ride the north section on a road ride. .
Commuting would be different
Comments like this are terrifying.People using roads to go to places, how very dare they!
I think you're misunderstanding that post. I am a cyclist, albeit not a roadie and as such have to ride on roads to get to places. I have had close shaves with Vans and ****ts skimming past me on 30mph roads....so I speak as someone who is concerned for Cyclists, not trying to kill the buggers! (yes 'terrifying' is a good word for this) I always treat roadies with respect when driving, but they just don't do themselves any favours.
As for going faster on the road vs the cycle path? Really there is hardly any difference (in the past on training I've overtaken people riding the road while I was on the cycle path).
All that proves is that you were riding faster than them, you'd have overtaken if you were both ont he rad or both on the path, it's no indication of surface quality or fitness-for-use.
Ask yourself why they were on the road, it won't have been because they like playing with traffic, there will have been a reason, even if it's as trivial as 'I don't like riding up the kerbs to get on the path' which I've heard before and not something I'd considered previously, and you know what, it's a valid reason to some people, it's sometimes amazing how such tiny things can have an impact.
I think you're misunderstanding that post.
I don't think I was but apologies if it came over that way, I wasn't suggesting that those were your sentiments per-se, but that it highlighted a very real situation. People are getting angry, about something that they really shouldn't be, and instead of focusing on the bad bit (the anger) we are looking at removing the victim from the road!
but they just don't do themselves any favours.
Dammit, I was right with you up until that point. 🙁
How are they not doing themselves any favours? The only transgression they have committed against anyone is 'being there'
