MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Agreed, RudeBoy, and apologies to you for that, but I think it has to be understood that actions have consequences, and that Israelis in general cannot expect that the man on the Clapham omnibus is going to forget everything and extend the hand of friendship while their elected government is pursuing a vile policy of slaughter of innocent people.
[i]Surely Ulster has shown that the only way to end a terrorist threat is to sit down and talk. For all that we threw at the IRA we never came close to wiping them out.[/i]
Abser****inlootely. If there was an economy in Gaza that was not destroyed by Israel, a young guy looking to feed his family could go out and work in a shop, or an olive oil factory, or pursue his career as a graphic designer, or go to university. Now all he can do is go work for Hamas, whether he wants to or not. The Israelis, in a spectacular show of brutalilty and stupidity have ensured that Hamas is the only game in town. If I were paranoid I'd suspect it was deliberately done, just to get the excuse to fulfill their real goal of driving the Palestinians into the sea.
Tankslappper,
Regarding accusations of a disproportionate response. It is a clear fact and understatement that the Palestinians are suffering a great deal more than we are. However, if the aim is to stop the ability of the Hamas and its allies to attack, this cannot be acheived by attacking them a little bit, as this guarantees failure, it involves killing enough of their fighters to force them into submission. There have been minor incursions into Gaza resulting in no useful outcome and several soldiers coming back in body bags. Negotiation has been tried, largely through Egyptian mediation and failed. I don't know if the present action will work but the time for tolerance has passed. Hamas cannot demand normal relations as well as the right to launch rockets.
It is very true that the outcome of this fighting is unclear. Will it have the effect of stopping the Hamas attacks? I hope so. Unfortunately the only guaranteed outcome is that the people who die will be dead, those suffering will continue to suffer, and the levels of hatred will have been stoked. What do you suggest we do, allow the rockets to continue? The intent of Hamas seems to be to turn themselves and their population into Shahidin (Martyrs) for some insane religious/political end, instead of building a situation where they can live and work in peace. What I am trying to say is that they too have responsibility for this situation.
I have a baby girl and a three year-old son, I cannot watch Palestinian children being killed and maimed due to the actions of my government without asking myself if the lives of my children are worth more than theirs. The answer is surely not, but on this occasion I cannot see how the situation could be avoided. A woman at work lost her nephew a while back to a Hamas rocket when he drove to a meeting in Sderot for work. I live just out of range of the rockets, people I work with live in range, and are sleeping in shelters, the children in my village are at home because their school is in range. No government on earth would allow this to happen to their population, we don't have the luxury of being "popular", when under attack before without any large scale response were we popular? I don't think so.
Britain has also faced attack by Islamic fanatics of a similar mind-set on the London Transport system, after turning a blind eye to the activities of exhiled fundamentalists resident in Britain for over a decade. Such atrocities are a logical conclusion of their preached philosophy. Britain has also invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. Britain and France drew-up the borders of the Middle East at the end of WW1. Britain sanctioned the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine in the 1917 Balfour Declaration, and governed as a colonial power until the going got rough. Britain has no right to claim the moral high ground. Some British people may be disgusted by the actions of their goverment and military, but the terrorist intent on killing them will not ask about their sentiments. I also hold British citizenship, and therefore am doubly deserving of self-righteous condemnation in the minds of those who fail to make the distinction between someones nationality and some sort of moral culpability for a situation out of their control.
[i]I have a baby girl and a three year-old son, I cannot watch Palestinian children being killed and maimed due to the actions of my government without asking myself if the lives of my children are worth more than theirs. The answer is surely not, but on this occasion I cannot see how the situation could be avoided[/i]
Please, I'm going to puke. You can make a start on avoiding killing children by simply not dropping bombs on schools. Simple enough, I would have thought.
What do you suggest we do, allow the rockets to continue?
I suggest you get out of the occupied territories.
I suggest that you stop taking land from the Palestinians.
I suggest that you stop destroying the livelihoods of Palestinians.
I suggest that you go back to your homeland.
See, Whargrider, I could take you more seriously, if you actually bothered to consider why the Palestinians are so enraged against Israel. Do you seriously think they would attack Israel, a much more powerful military force, for no good reason? That is what you must ask of your society.
As for the rocket attacks, whilst not wishing to justify the actions of murderers, have you considered the informaiton that ernie lynch included in his post earlier, about the dropping of cluster anti-personel bombs in the West Bank? Have you any idea what devastation these devices cause? And have you no idea of the use of chemical and biological weapons, by your country's military?
[url= http://www.antiwar.com/orig/brooks.php?articleid=2957 ]Use of nerve gas by Israel[/url]
You have to accept the fact, that your nation is seen as an evil agressor, by most of the World's people. And with good reason. Israel has refused to sign up to any International agreements regarding the disclosure of weapons of mass destruction, something which even Iraq did. And there is proof of the use of weapons, as banned under the Geneva Convention, by Israel, in Lebanon and Palestine.
Your nation has forfeited the right to expect sympathy. If you want to know why, then look at the facts, and stop burying your head in the sand.
I can't help thinking that the Palestinians would have had their state a long time ago if they had only chosen peaceful protest as a means of acheiving their legitimate aims.
Yep, without a doubt. Not blowing people up worked better for the IRA than blowing them up. In fact if it wasn't for the IRA there'd have been a united independent Ireland in the 50s. You could blame the Germans I suppose...
Ernie Lynch,
"I suggest you get out of the occupied territories."
I personally am not in them but agree thet my government should absolutely get out instead of bowing to the extremist settlers. Did we not already pull out of Gaza?
"Stop taking land from Palestinians," I agree absolutely.
"Stop destroying the livelihoods of Palestinians," an obvious pre-requisite for peace.
"Suggest that you go back to your homeland," it is your prerogative to suggest. I will come back to visit my family sometimes.
The state of Gaza is a direct result of decades of foolish Israeli governments' policy, indeed we reep what we sow. At some point though you have to put this aside. We pulled out of Gaza, and still we get attacked by potentially lethal rockets on a regular basis.
What would your suggested reaction be if you were similarly attacked, to sit by and let it happen?
[i]What would your suggested reaction be if you were similarly attacked, to sit by and let it happen?[/i]
If the Palestinians had a proper life with a future to build for - not a hole in the ground where an Israeli bomb dropped on their house, or a bullet in their head where a settler wanted their olive groves - then Hamas would not get volunteers to stick leaflets in letterboxes, let alone get themselves killed by shooting a pop-gun at the [s]US[/s] Israeli army.
You made this choice - maybe stupidly, maybe cynically - yours is the responsibility for the consequences.
Did we not already pull out of Gaza?
Ah, I see that you didn't read the article by Seumas Milne which I posted earlier.
Let me repeat :
[b]"But that is to turn reality on its head. Like the West Bank, the Gaza Strip has been - and continues to be - illegally occupied by Israel since 1967. Despite the withdrawal of troops and settlements three years ago, Israel maintains complete control of the territory by sea, air and land. And since Hamas won the Palestinian elections in 2006, Israel has punished its 1.5 million people with an inhuman blockade of essential supplies, backed by the US and the European Union."[/b]
I am not a blind supporter of the actions of my government, they didn't ask my approval regarding the use of cluster bombs in the last Lebanon war nor would they have gained it if they had.
I don't remember asking for sympathy for my nation or for myself. I am expressing my own personal opinion, and stand by it.
All extremism is crap and all extremists are c**ts and should be stabbed to death whilst they are still suckling at their mothers breast, then they and their mothers should be boiled in oil as an example to the rest of you ****ers......... that and rendering them down after would solve population issues and the fuel crisis simultaneously, and is obviously the way forward that any of us right thinking and God fearing folk would come to if we gave up the triple sins of sex drugs and alcohol and rode our bikes religiously every sunday .......Am I right?..... Can I have an Amen on that?
😉
FFS Tanky when are you going to stop winding people up and get over here to the flat lands to ride your bike? We've got a round of Thetford Winter Series Race at our place on the 25th, and I bet I can persuade the old snuffler to let you sleep in the spare room that weekend, and then we can get right royally pi44ed and everything! 8)
G
Yet you appear to condone the actions of your nation, and act as an apologist for it.
As for terrorism, ever heard of [url= http://i-cias.com/e.o/mossad.htm ]Mossad?[/url]
Eh, Mossad ?
Why look at just Mossad ?
Surely the IDF can be classed as a terrorist organisation ?
Dear me...I do hope someone comes and shuts this thread down soon.
DrJ
I agree with your assertion that if the Palestinians had more chance for a proper future they would not be driven to desperate means. However I fail to see what they expect to acheive by the indescriminate launching of rockets against a civilian population, particularly after Israel has already withdrawn from their territory (in the case of the Gaza strip). Nothing NOTHING can justify the criminal murder of Palestinians on extremist racist settlers, who literally do get away with murder, as this is not dealt with seriously by our government. I totally agree, and have in the past excercised my democratic right to protest against such abuses.
However, in the case of the Hamas regime in Gaza, we are not talking about a few Palestinians throwing stones in frustration at their occupation. We are talking about the criminal actions of an organization responsible for the goverment of the Gaza Strip and the welfare of over 1.5 million residents. This organization had the ability to choose not to attack innocent Israeli citizens on a regular basis. I fail to see what benefit this brings to the popultation of Gaza, or how it could possibly improve their situation? We [i]made[/i] them do it? Their interests would be far better served by peacefully stating their point, by demonstrating their ability to resposibly govern the Gaza strip in preparation for proper statehood. This would display to the world their legitimate right to a state, and undermine any justification for Israeli aggression or occupation. In their clinging to irrational violence, they have lost any moral ground they may have had. Israel has declared war on Hamas with disastrous consequences for the innocent residents of Gaza, and for the Palestinians as a whole. Israel is responsible for the defence of its civilians against such mindless aggression which CANNOT be justified. Anybody who justifies these attacks merely gives sanction to the continuation of the inevitable war which now manifests itself, and cannot claim to seriously promote the eleviation of the suffering of the Palestinian people.
Good Night, the outcome of this war of words isn't going anywhere, just the same as the "peace" process. Very, very depressing. Not getting slagged off by you lot, a lot of people are going to be doing some very real suffering tonight, it's cold out. And for what, the arrogant gesturing of a bunch of criminal lunatics? IGMC.
I do hope someone comes and shuts this thread down soon.
I don't. At least this is a forum where people can share/exchange ideas, and have a reasonably intelligent debate. And maybe some of us will be inspired to find out more, and learn something. And maybe, just maybe, use that knowledge for good.
[i]However I fail to see what they expect to acheive by the indescriminate launching of rockets against a civilian population[/i]
What they expect to achieve is a place at the negotiating table, once the Israelis have realised that the legitimate aspirations of a nation will not be destroyed by the military jackboot. Unfortunately for all concerned, the Israelis are rather stupid in realising this, which prolongs the suffering on all sides.
[i]particularly after Israel has already withdrawn from their territory (in the case of the Gaza strip)[/i]
As has already been pointed out to you a few times, this is just a fiction as long as the Israelis control all access to and from Gaza. Gaza has no autonomy or independent existence. Israel has created the world's biggest concentration camp.
[i]Their interests would be far better served by peacefully stating their point, by demonstrating their ability to resposibly govern the Gaza strip in preparation for proper statehood.[/i]
This has been tried over and over again, but the Israelis never give anything in return for peace - either in Palestine or in Lebanon. They have a blank cheque from the US to do anything they like, and they are happy to use it, for short term political reasons, ignoring the bigger picture for themselves, and never giving a tinker's cuss for the Palestinian "untermenschen".
who are the criminal lunatics then I keep getting a bit confused here?
Well done for at least trying to explain/defend etc whilst i do not agree with your governments actions (which I know is not the same as your action unlike some on here)or some of what you have said you have earned my respect for at least trying and never rising to the personal attacks some have thrown at you.
Sleep safe and lets hope we can all wake up in a better world.
[i]the arrogant gesturing of a bunch of criminal lunatics[/i]
A perfect description. Fits the Israelis to a "t".
Reasonably intelligent debate? Er, yes quite. The latter posts? I think not. Whargrider has the right idea. Good night.
FWIW I also respect Whargrider, whatever our differences may be. Takes some bottle to come on here, and fly in the face of popular opinion.
If there was an occupying force in this country, I would be not be reasonable, peaceable, or willing to sit down to negotiate.
Thus I cannot expect the Palestinians to behave differently. This will not and should stop until they get their country back.
the palestinians are damned if they do, damned if they dont
Your concern for the suffering of the Palestinian people is truly touching WhargRider.
And I'm sure that many Zionists share in this concern.
It reminds me of how the Nazis also shared a deep and touching concern for the well-being of the Jewish people. All the Jews had to do they argued, was to fully cooperate with them, get onto the trains that would transport them to the East, whereupon they would start a new happy life.
Right up to the point where they walked through the concentration camp gates below a sign which declared :
[b]"WORK MAKES FREE !"[/b]
[img] 
[/img]
And even then, the Nazis insisted that the gas chambers be fitted with shower fittings. Because hey, the Nazis only wanted the Jews to be clean and smelling sweetly.
Yes, very very touching indeed.
.
BTW, the Hamas rockets are in response to the Israeli attempt to starve the Palestinians with the enforcement of a blockade. Hamas has said that the rocket attacks will cease if the blockade is lifted.
and so we continue to go round in a circle......
One things for absolute certain, the conflict will be resolved when its resolved, in a room around a table bit like Northern Ireland was. How about we jump the intermediate stages and get to the table bit straight away, then everyone can bugger off and ride their bikes which IMHO is a great outcome.
Oh and by the way my previous post was written with tongue barely in cheek.
Bless and good night
G
[i]One things for absolute certain, the conflict will be resolved when its resolved, in a room around a table bit like Northern Ireland was. How about we jump the intermediate stages and get to the table bit straight away, then everyone can bugger off and ride their bikes which IMHO is a great outcome.[/i]
Good plan, but as long as Israel refuses to speak to Hamas, it can't happen.
Without wishing to spin the roundabout again, I do believe that is a case of both sides going "you first, no YOU first, No you , No You"......etc etc ad infinitum and that ends up with sleeves rolled up and them both rolling around on the ground playground bullies having a punch up.
I reckon the best way to resolve these things is to internationally enforce a law to the effect that anytime a country wants to go to war the children of all their politcians and their extended familes must enlist in the Infantry and be the first to go into action on every occasion that military action is deemed necessary.
Pretty sure most conflicts would not get past go and certainly would not collect £200.
Thinking about it, I should rule the world. We'd have more singletrack, no tax on bike bling, free Stella and Red wine on presentation of an empty camelback with dirt on it, special holding pens for women with PMT, with very high walls and soundproofing, and thats just on day one! Then on Day 2 we'd abolish the FC and replace it with the Singletrack forum, then we'd make all kids learn how to hold a several hour long conversation on appropriate tyre choice..........
Vote for G...... its the way forward, you know it makes sense!
For those who think that the Palestine/Zionist problem can resolved as easily as the Northern Ireland question, I fear that you are deeply misguided.
Quite apart from anything else, there is the little problem of almost 5 million Palestinian refugees in the world.
Yes, that's 5 million people driven off their own land.
Vote for G!!!
The state of Israel is inbetween a rock and a hard place. If they do nothing Arab interests from surrounding countries will over run them in anyway possible. Remember there are a few in the world who see Israel as an extension of America. Israeli politicians know that a Hawkish-stance wins votes to boot. If you look deeper into the Orthodox/Secular-mix of the population you'll see that the Orthodox birth rate outstrips Secular-Jews. This in its self is going to create huge problems in the future.
All the best to both sides to be honest. I don't see any solution anytime soon. Decades of strife lay ahead.
Hora- still talking bollocks, I see!
And how will the increase in the numbers of orthodox Jews become a problem? Many orthodox Jews are actually opposed to Zionism, as the concept goes against their teachings. And Zionism itself is used as a veil for Western attempts at cultural and economic hegemony.
You're right about their being decades of strife ahead, though. As long as there is conflict and struggle in the Middle East, the West can continue to impose it's will on the rest of the World. And sell it's guns and bombs.
Its well known that Secular Jews contribute alot to the economy whereas a large percentage of Orthodox/ultra etc devote the majority of their time to scriptures etc. Theres an inbalance of income etc. That is going to be a big future problem. Plus what you dont hear that much in news reports- alot of Israeli's are against the violence and feel uncomfortable about the Palestinian problem.
That's absolute bullshit, Hora, I'm afraid. Sounds like a bit of anti-orthodox propaganda, to me.
I know Jewish people here, who do business with people in Israel. Many of those are orthodox Jews. Many of whom are quite affluent.
And go take a walk round somewhere like Stamford Hill, where many businesses are Jewish-owned. Go and look at the houses people live in. And tell me they're sitting around writing scriptures!
Oh vey
[i]Plus what you dont hear that much in news reports- alot of Israeli's are against the violence and feel uncomfortable about the Palestinian problem.[/i]
In that case they have the opportunity to vote out the party that leads them to war, and to publically express their opposition to being involved in murder. Israel is (as they keep reminding us) a democracy, so they can't claim that they are fighting against the wishes of the population.
[i] Israel is (as they keep reminding us) a democracy, so they can't claim that they are fighting against the wishes of the population. [/i]
It's quite possible that the people who are against violence aren't voting for them. It's also possible that people are voting for the government, not because they are warmongers, but that despite them being warmongers they are more credible than the opposition. Pure conjecture on my part I'd freely admit, but just cos you live in a democracy doesn't mean you get the government you'd like.
The thing is it's not really a difficult problem to solve. Everyone knows that Israel has to withdraw to it's 1967 borders, the Arab nations have to ackwnollege the existance of Israel as a legitamate state, and Jerusalem will need some joint or independent control, something akin to the vatican state maybe. All sides broadly realise that this is the only solution that can bring some semblence of peace, but they're all too wrapped up in the baggage of the past to start moving forward to this 🙁
ernie_lynch - Member said :-
For those who think that the Palestine/Zionist problem can resolved as easily as the Northern Ireland question, I fear that you are deeply misguided.
Quite apart from anything else, there is the little problem of almost 5 million Palestinian refugees in the world.Yes, that's 5 million people driven off their own land
So of course theres no Irish people who had that happen to them then?
Wally!
Anyway moving on to more important issues Day 3 : One set of free tyres per week on presentation of your bike at your local bike shop. Chain Reaction and Wiggle nationalised, whilst all local bike shops are to have free coffee and cake, plus fit serving birds that talk endless shop whilst leaning their ample cleavages over the counter. DIY lessons for all females, including special emphasis on the significance of doing all major DIY jobs around the house whilst sending your partner off riding to the proof of female equality, All dual carriageways to have the nearside lane turned into bike lanes, the establishment of the annual M25 both ways bike race, one lap clockwise followed by one lap anticlockwise......... still going.......
Ernie - As easily as the N.I. question - oh good, nearly 40 years and 4000 dead - when can we drop you into Gaza then?
G
[i]special holding pens for women with PMT, with very high walls and soundproofing, and thats just on day one![/i]
Love it! You have a career in politics beckoning there fella'!
G - MemberSo of course theres no Irish people who had that happen to them then?
Wally!
Yes of course, I forgot about the millions of stateless Irish living in refugee camps scattered throughout Europe, which had to be considered during the NI peace process.
I'm obviously a complete wally 😳
.
Slapper - I'm intrigued to know what you're talking about - do tell 😕
A national LAN game of "sabotage" on COD4 should settle this. With no ReSpawn of course!
Plus what you dont hear that much in news reports- alot of Israeli's are against the violence and feel uncomfortable about the Palestinian problem.
This is very true hora. In the same way that many whites in South Africa were appalled by the racist Apartheid regime's policies, many Jews (incl ones in Israel) are disgusted by the actions of the Israeli government. Something which should never be forgotten.
And moreover unlike white South Africans, those Jews who oppose the Israeli government are subjected to the particularly nasty vilification of being labelled "self-haters"
G - Long time no see! you decided to brave STW again then, or was it you that broke it? 😉
Gspecial holding pens for women with PMT, with very high walls and soundproofing, and thats just on day one!
Love it! You have a career in politics beckoning there fella'!
I think we should have a C2C reunion soon.....
Oh, and Palestine - Well, I've not really got much to add, so I'll butt out again now...
G - does sfb know your here?! WTF's Dibnah!
G - Member
So of course theres no Irish people who had that happen to them then?Wally!
Yes of course, I forgot about the millions of stateless Irish living in refugee camps scattered throughout Europe, which had to be considered during the NI peace process.
I'm obviously a complete wally
Eruope? No. America. There are more Irish Americans than Irish. There's probably more Irish in London than Ireland too.
Ah right, the millions of stateless Irish living in refugee camps in America, [u]not[/u] Europe.
Yes of course, they all had to be considered before the NI peace process could be implemented.
G is right - I really am a wally 😳 😳 😳
Not refugee camps no. Americans are rather more charitable than those arab fellas. Or more accurately it was never in Americas interest to amplify the suffering of displaced Irish.
[i]Americans are rather more charitable[/i]
And they were very charitable in supporting another murdering terrorist group, the IRA.
....
And they were very charitable in supporting another murdering terrorist group, the IRA.
Yep. The cheeky monkies.
What goes round comes round.
So it's going pretty well today, nice high death toll, plenty of civilian casualties - it really is a lovely war!
The Israelis are right to act against the missile attacks from Gaza but their response is totally disproportionate.
I've just watched footage on the news of the hundreds of Palestinian civilian casualties and it made me think that it's really not that surprising that much of the world hates Israel (and to an extent, by proxy the US)
Seems that most of the victims of the recent Israeli attacks are civilians.
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7812286.stm ]BBC[/url]
Which makes this genocide, not 'war'.
Time the UN stepped in. WTF is it for, if not to try and prevent this kind of thing?
If Iran, ****stan, Ethiopia, Syria, Somalia etc were ding this, it would be denounced as senseless slaughter. Israel is quite literaly, getting away with murder.
I wonder where the Whargrider is, tonight? I wonder if he's now relfecting on his ill-chosen and ill-judged comments, yesterday?
Sick. Utterly sick.
How can anyone claim this is justified, no matter what the act against them?
[img] 
[/img]
The Israelis are right to act against the missile attacks from Gaza
OK
There appears to be a serious misunderstanding about who the aggressor actually is.
In June last year Hamas agreed to a six month ceasefire with Israel.
On the 4th of November Israel broke the ceasefire by killing six Palestinians in Gaza.
Up until that point in the ceasefire [u]not one single Israeli had been killed[/u] by Hamas.
.
Of cause Israel likes to do it dirty work when it believes the world isn't watching (at the moment it won't allow reporters into the killing zone) So it chose the 4th of November the day the world was witnessing the historical election of the first ever black US president. It knew that it's blatant violation of the ceasefire wouldn't make the front pages of the world's newspapers.
They hoped no one would notice. Judging by some of the comments on here, the strategy seems to have been quite successful.
Furthermore, Israel was bound by the terms of the ceasefire to lift it's blockade of the Gaza Strip.
A barbaric and inhumane blockade which the United Nations Human Rights Investigator describe as, quote :
[b]"a flagrant and massive violation of international humanitarian law"[/b]
And
[b]" a crime against humanity"[/b]
Israel failed in it's obligations and the blockade was not lifted. The cost in Palestinian lives is not known.
The aggressor is Israel, and Palestinians are the victims.
.
BTW, this latest Israeli bloodbath has nothing to do with responding to Hamas, and everything to do with the fact that there will be a national election in Israel on Feb 10th.
And of course in 2 weeks time there will a new US president who might not be quite as easy on the Israelis as the present one.
Now is the time to kill as many Palestinians as possible.
BTW
Richard Falk the UN human rights investigator who described Israel's blockade of Gaza as "a flagrant and massive violation of international humanitarian law" and " a crime against humanity" was expelled by Israel.
[url] http://www.democracynow.org/2008/12/17/days_after_calling_israeli_blockade_of [/url]
Which is funny, because I thought countries which expelled UN inspectors risked being invaded by the US ?
.
Oh yes ........... and Richard Falk is an American Jew.
So not your typical Hamas supporter then.......
What gets me about all this is that can none of the Israeli government see the parallels with the warsaw ghetto and the pale of settlement and the various pogroms the jews have suffered. they now do this to someone else.
Thankyou TJ - that is exactly why I started the thread.
TJ, good to see you back old chap!
A very salient point as well.
I understand yer basic national defence doctrine (i.e. if missiles were raining down on Somerset from Devon...), but what gets me is the casual indifference of many Israeli onlookers (like those two girls at the border, interviewed on [i]Newsnight[/i]) to the wholesale slaughter of women and children. As if dead civilians were no more than - now, what's the word? - [i]untermenschen[/i].
To be fair, the creation of Israel was sanctioned by the UN - and the existence of Gaza as a refugee camp is entirely down to the refusal by neighbouring arab states to accept the displaced palestinians as a gesture of realpolitik.
Additionally, comments like Genocide are, frankly, ridiculous - ten days of high intensity military action in one of the most population dense areas of the planet have resulted in approximately 100 civilian casualties (UN figures) - to be honest thats pretty remarkable!
Lets bear in mind, population of about 1.5 million, death rate due to natural causes would be roughly 65 per day, so its not as if there's a huge rise in mortality, the hysterical allegations simply don't stack up!
[i]"So, statistically at least, nobody has been killed in the recent Israeli campaign!
Bargain"[/i]
source: ARRSE
Hello labrat. Bargain, eh?
I put my 18 month old to bed last night. Kissed him gently on the forehead as he slipped off to sleep. Lay him down in his cot, snuggled him in etc.
A few hours later I saw a chap on the news kiss his baby son, much the same as I had done earlier. Only this chap was kissing his little one for the last time. Unlike my little one, who sprang into life at 6am this morning, this little one will never wake up. And also, unlike me, that poor chap will never see his little man grow up.
Now I'm no expert on what is going on over there, but what is apparent to me is the senseless & brutal waste of life. I know little of Hamas, & what they stand for, but FFS surely its time this atrocity was stopped.
That Hamas are a bunch of murdering cowards who hide behind a civilian population is not in doubt (all terrorists are the same) the issue is that the amount of force being used is indefensible. Shame on you Isreal.
One persons terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Israel was based / built on terrorism - the stern gang and so on. These people blew up British army forces
Perhap Zulu-Eleven could set this Norwegian medic right - http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4698406n.
I don't much care for Hamas (especially not the likes of the late Nizar "suicide dad" Rayyan), but the IDF pretence that shelling civilians is going to somehow help establish a lasting peace is ****ing laughable. It will do quite the opposite.
As I commented the other evening if Israel wants peace it should provide Gaza with jobs, employment and wealth. Poverty breeds terrorists. But as usual there appears absolutely no end-game with this, no plan for the future, regime change appears to mean regime distruction and an even poorer and angrier population.
NUTS!
[i]Hello labrat. Bargain, eh?[/i]
Tongue firmly in cheek noteeth ;op - doesn't take away the fact that the [b]independent[/b] statistics don't support the allegations!
Additionally, comments like Genocide are, frankly, ridiculous - ten days of high intensity military action in one of the most population dense areas of the planet have resulted in approximately 100 civilian casualties
Erm, more like getting on for 500, and rising every day.
Military action resulting in deaths of large numbers of civilians, with no justifiable reason, with race or religion being one of the motivating factors= GENOCIDE.
Why should the 'displaced' Palestinians be forced to move elsewhere? Why should neighbouring states be forced to take them in?
I make no claim to be an expert in this, but I would have thought one way that the Israelis could be dealing with this, is by withdrawing it's citizens that live within the range of Hamas' rockets, to a safe distance, placing it's troops on the Palestinian border, and be ready to defend it's own borders, nothing more. That way, Hamas' rockets would not be killing any innocent Israeli civilians, and the Israeli troops would be far better protected. most of the munitions Hamas is flinging over are relatively weak; more anti-personnel weapons than heavy duty building destroyers.
This way, Israel would gain a hell of a lot more sympathy, and the onus would be on Hamas, to engage in further peace talks.
Israel may be a modern, progressive Westernised nation, but that doesn't exempt it from being run by evil tyrants, democratically elected or not. They can't hide behind the veneer of respectability, just because they are 'friends' with the West.
And it's these ties with the USA and Britain especially, that hinder any peaceful progress. As Long as thses two nations continue to support Israel, economicallly and militarily, this situation will only get worse.
We can start, by boycotting Israeli goods. Personally, I think imposing sanctions against israel, and forbidding the trade of everything, especially weapons, would have an immediate impact.
Israel is just acting like a bully with big brothers, knows it can act with impunity. Time for all of us that do not like what is going on, to put pressure on our government, to act. Personally, I think the UN should steam into Israel, and prevent them from carrying out any more military action.
Iraq invaded Kuwait, and the West steamed in. So why aren't they, this time?
"the independent statistics"
How clear would you say the picture on the ground is, right now?
(ps. forums come and go, Empires crumble into dust, STWers remain the same... )
[i]maybe if hamass or wot ever they are called , would stop lobbing missiles , sit down and ****ing talk , then all the sh*t would stop[/i]
Maybe, but since Israel, the US and the EU won't talk to Hamas (and Israel imprisoned their MP's), who should they talk to?
Plus, Israel have bombed their TV, radio and communication centres, so I'd say dialogue might be a bit difficult right now...
Perhaps they could air drop Bush and Blair in to have a chat?
I'd volunteer to drop-kick Bliar and Bush into Palestine.
'Oh, sorry, didn't get very far with that kick, better try again' (and repeat). All the way into Gaza City.
Shock and awe.
The pictures of dead children today. Some Western journalists are very brave.
I think this thread wins the best Troll of 2009!
(so far)
[i]maybe if hamass or wot ever they are called , would stop lobbing missiles , sit down and ****ing talk , then all the sh*t would stop
Maybe, but since Israel, the US and the EU won't talk to Hamas (and Israel imprisoned their MP's), who should they talk to? [/i]
Hamas refuses to recognise Israel as a state. I don't think that helps matters either. On the Hamas-side: a country thats only been formed for 6 decades is going to rankle somewhat with the locals isnt it?..
[i]Erm, more like getting on for 500, and rising every day.[/i]
UN Report - 4Th jan, 1700h:
As of this evening, the MoH reports casualty figures since the beginning of the Israeli military operation on
27 December of 491 dead and approximately 2,400 injured, out of which figures, at least 20 percent of the
fatalities and 40 percent of the injuries are women and children.
[i]Why should the 'displaced' Palestinians be forced to move elsewhere? Why should neighbouring states be forced to take them in?[/i]
Ask the UN, they created Israel, and there is a duty on all nations to accept refugees - wonder why this has not happened - as I said, victims of middle eastern realpolitik
I could quite easily counter with "why should Israel have to withdraw to the 1967 border, when its land that they rightfully won after being attacked by neighbouring states intent on their destruction - blame the other nations for attacking in the first place"...
Two sides to every story and all that!
Who "made" Israel in the first place?
An ancient novel explained that it was once inhabited by a certain people a thousand years ago. Then in the mid-twentieth century Terrorists blew up a hotel and committed terrorist acts against a war-weakened Britain. Freedom fighter and Terrorist- all have different meanings to certain people.