Discuss?
2 sides to every coin.
No
Did someone say all the trolls had gone?
Yes.
2 sides to every coin.
Do you say that when someone mentions WW2 ?
No - not even close. What they are doing is wrong, but not quite on the same scale as the Holocaust.
maybe if hamass or wot ever they are called , would stop lobbing missiles , sit down and ****ing talk , then all the sh*t would stop, i feel sorry for both sides,
Any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic and therefore it makes you a Nazi. Discuss.
What they are doing is wrong but not ....
Violating international law, ignoring the United Nations, illegal conquest and occupation, punishing civilians........
I could go on.
What they are doing is wrong, but not quite on the same scale as the Holocaust
But something akin to Blitzkreig tactics
....or the the UN would show some b0ll0cks and put peace keeping troops in.
flashfart - anti-semitic equals the inability to discuss anything - discuss
Troll - you all know me already.....
if hamass or wot ever they are called , would stop lobbing missiles
[b]"[i]Like any occupied people, the Palestinians have the right to resist, whether they choose to exercise it or not. But there is no right of defence for an illegal occupation - there is an obligation to withdraw comprehensively.[/i]"[/b]
ernie_lynch
yes mate
as would most germans .
BTW - I have no issue with God's cursed people.
Its a pretty troll-ish thread title tbh.
If this was happening in the UK, with home made rockets being fired onto UK homes, the press and public opinion would be totally different. It counts as a significantly more important and justified war than the UK/US invading Afghanistan or Iraq.
You can't elect a terrorist group, allow them to operate and then complain when civilians are killed trying to stop them.
I don't hide behind a troll, although I see where your coming from.
I thought your thread about vegetarians was probably a troll, but this definitely is.
Yeah no-one complained when we carried out air strikes against Ireland did they? Oh hang on...
If this was happening in the UK, with home made rockets being fired onto UK homes, the press and public opinion would be totally different.
You wouldn't support resistance to a foreign power ?
like the germans in ww2 did
Yeah no-one complained when we carried out air strikes against Ireland did they? Oh hang on...
Different situation are different tactics required. I'm afraid politics will NEVER work with the Israeli and Palestinian conflict, it has been on going in various forms for thousands of years. It is unfortunate but I can't see a method other than brute force to remove the terrorist elements.
It's a bad family argument but going back to before Christ. They're all related.
Violating international law, ignoring the United Nations, illegal conquest and occupation, punishing civilians........
Not really any better than we and the Americans do......
Nixie - that's the point really. What's right? What's wrong?
I can't see a method other than brute force to remove the terrorist elements.
And I can't see a method other than brute force to remove the American and Russian Zionists from Palestine.
Quote from a Palestinian commander :
[i]"We can't do anything (to hurt the Israelis) but fire the rockets and hope they enter Gaza," he said. "We are praying for the tanks to come so we can show them new things. We have made many preparations for the coming battle and all of our fighters wait for the chance to kill them."[/i]
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This level of violence simply makes more martyrs and creates more problems for our forces in 'other' Islamic states. FACT
Truth is the Zionists don't give a sh1t bout anyone but themselves.
Imagine if Iran or anyone else outside Israel and the United States was doing what the Israeli military is doing in Gaza. There would be global condemnation, not least from Israel and the United States, resolutions passed in the UN Security Council and talk of the need for sanctions or military intervention to 'save the innocent'.
I do not agree with Palestinians in London telling us 'shame on you' they need to remember they live in Britain where they are free to express an opinion - that said what's happening is wrong on all fronts FWIW
Hmm, a good deal of ignorance here.
Although I don't condone Hamas firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel, I understand their reasoning for doing it.
I don't condone Israel's heavy-handed tactics and targeting of civilians, but understand their reasoning for defending their citizens.
I have no ideas for the solution, though. Anyone who thinks they do, has probably underestimated the complexity of the situation.
BM - don't think anyone especially me has underestimated the 'complexity of the situation'
This can hardly be classed as a 'hearts and minds' excercise?
I do not agree with Palestinians in London telling us 'shame on you'
Why not ?
We should be ashamed of the British governments' position.
You're probably right about it being counter-productive though, from yesterdays' news quote :
[i]Zbigniew Brzezinski, who was national security adviser for US president Jimmy Carter, told CNN television that Rice's remarks "clearly show that the US policy right now is completely bankrupt" and the Israeli offensive "will further radicalize the Palestinians."[/i]
But as if the Bush administration cares.
.
Nothing "complex" about the situation bikemonkey.
The foreign Zionists which have entered Palestine believe that they have a 2000 year old claim to land which isn't theirs.
They are wrong. Simple as.
oh boy. The Palestine/Israel conundrum.
we in the west are in no position to lecture either side about this particular 'problem'; hell, Britain 'created' the problem in 1948 with the partition of what was then "Palestine" to create a homeland for the exiled survivors of the Holocaust. IIRC this was sanctioned by the newly created United Nations.
Had the Nazis not come to power in 1933 & set about their attempted extinction of the Jewish population of Europe, then perhaps we [i]might[/i] not be seeing the problems we see now.
But why did the Nazis come to power?
A political - and democratically elected - reaction to the economic reparations against Germany resulting from the First World War, which can in turn probably be traced back to the Franco-Prussian war of the 19th century and back beyond that again.
But go back further to the Crusades. "The Holy Land" has been a battleground of sorts for over a thousand years - do we think we can change that now, especially in light of the current political situation? No, I don't think we can.
And while this goes on, there will always be conflict between the "west" and the Islamic world.
I wish there was a way out, but I can't see one.
You can't elect a terrorist group, allow them to operate and then complain when civilians are killed trying to stop them.
Is the Israeli government a terrorist organisation? I didn't know that...
I have no ideas for the solution, though. Anyone who thinks they do, has probably underestimated the complexity of the situation.
At last, a bit of sense.
[i]brute force to remove the terrorist elements[/i]
Good idea but the Israeli army is too strong to be easily removed.
Seriously, Hamas rockets, however annoying, do not pose any threat whatsoever to the existence of Israel, and to claim otherwise is to abuse the memory of the Holocaust victims. Every time the Israelis pull this stunt it cheapens the suffering of their ancestors.
"Nothing "complex" about the situation bikemonkey.
The foreign Zionists which have entered Palestine believe that they have a 2000 year old claim to land which isn't theirs.
They are wrong. Simple as. "
up for reasoned debate then? or just trolling? or just tring to shout down everyone who doesn't think Hamas is a democratic organisation?
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html
Nato/ UN refused to go into Georgia why on earth would they go into this disaster area, its cheaper to throw money at the situation when it all calms down (which then somehow never seems to reach the people)
balanced article here
its a mess, just pray it doesn't go nuclear
[i]up for reasoned debate then? or just trolling? or just tring to shout down everyone who doesn't think Hamas is a democratic organisation?
http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html [/i]
Umm ... whatever Hamas' charter may say does not alter the fact that they were elected in a process that would be lauded as a model of democracy if it happened anywhere else in the world.
1 isreali killed for every 100 palestinians was a figure I read this morning..... seems somewhat 1 sided.....
it's like shooting fish in a barrel... the palestinians have over the years been forced into the west bank and the gaza strip... and with the west bank now encircled with a huge funk off wall (berlin style) it makes the invading jews jobs easier....
as for anti semetic I don't give a....... nobody feels as sorry for the russian or chinese people to the same extent as the jews... and more people have been killed by the leaders of either of those countries.....
Nope. But if they employeed the tactics of the Nazis the world would whinge a bit, do **** all, and in a couple of years there'd be no more problems.
The Israelies are pussies.
I would side with the palestinians - Think they have had a rough deal for too long and fair play for not lying down and taking it like a mug.
If someone nicked your bike you'd wee in their shoes!!!
The battle is proper David and Goliath -Israel being back and supplied by the west and their superiour arms and weapons makes for it to be very one sided.
Israel has a right to defend itself... I find it hard to allow this right to extend to bombing illegally occupied countries whose external borders are controlled by Israel itself in direct violation of numerous UN treaties etc... this is also like the UK carpet bombing Eire because of the IRA.
The language used also irks me I see a country(territory) trying to defend itself from occupation ...apparently I call these the Terrorist Hamas... I see a state occupying land, closing its borders, attacking a democratically elected government via bombing civilian areas with planes, tanks etc and I call this a legitimate attempt to defend themselves ... Hamas extremists are retaliating where as Israel moderates are doing what then?
The only solution lies in the hearts and minds of those involved in the conflict but I find it easy to see which side is doing the opressing and which side is resisting this.
ANTI - semitism ... do some research both sides are semitic people/races/languages etc
Ignore this - trying to post on a different thread!!! Doh!! and ended up adding this when I shouldn't have!!!
big_n_daft -up for reasoned debate then? or just trolling?
Yeah I'm up for a reasoned debate. But I can't be bothered with all this bollox about taking land from the Palestinian people being a "highly complex" thing.
Funny how people can use the, "it's highly complex" argument when they've run out of things to say.
It's all very very simple.
Ashkenazim Jews do not have the right to take land from Palestinians.
The claim that it was promised to them by God several thousand years ago is nonsense. Besides, if you go down that road the Palestinians are considerably more Semitic than the Ashkenazim Jews.
Israel has no right to attempt to starve the Palestinians by imposing a blockade on them. It does have an obligation to remove it.
Israel has no right to move civilians into the occupied territories. It does have an obligation to withdraw from the occupied territories.
I could go on, but perhaps it would be easier if the Zionist apologists could just point out which bits are "too complex" for them to understand.
In the meantime I strongly recommend this piece by Seumas Milne. And no, Seumas Milne is not a fanatical Islamic jihadist. He is associate editor of the very liberal and rather pro-Israel Guardian newspaper. His father is a former BBC Director General and he is public school/Oxford educated - he wasn't educated in a ****stani madrasa.
It's all rather simple to understand :
[b]Israel's onslaught on Gaza is a crime that cannot succeed
Written by Seumas Milne
Tuesday, 30 December 2008
Israel's decision to launch its devastating attack on Gaza on a Saturday was a "stroke of brilliance", the country's biggest selling paper Yediot Aharonot crowed: "the element of surprise increased the number of people who were killed". The daily Ma'ariv agreed: "We left them in shock and awe".
Of the ferocity of the assault on one of the most overcrowded and destitute corners of the earth, there is at least no question. In the bloodiest onslaught on blockaded Gaza since it was captured and occupied by Israel 41 years ago, at least 310 people were killed and more than a thousand reported injured in the first 48 hours alone.
As well as scores of ordinary police officers incinerated in a passing-out parade, at least 56 civilians were said by the UN to have died as Israel used American-supplied F-16s and Apache helicopters to attack a string of civilian targets it linked to Hamas, including a mosque, private homes and the Islamic university. Hamas military and political facilities were mostly deserted, while police stations in residential areas were teeming as they were pulverised.
As Israeli journalist Amos Harel wrote in Ha'aretz at the weekend, "little or no weight was apparently devoted to the question of harming innocent civilians", as in US operations in Iraq. Among those killed in the first wave of strikes were eight teenage students waiting for a bus and four girls from the same family in Jabaliya, aged one to 12 years old.
Anyone who doubts the impact of these atrocities among Arabs and Muslims worldwide should switch on the satellite television stations that are watched avidly across the Middle East and which - unlike their western counterparts - do not habitually sanitise the barbarity meted out in the name of multiple wars on terror.
Then, having seen a child dying in her parent's arms live on TV, consider what sort of western response there would have been to an attack on Israel, or the US or Britain for that matter, which left more than 300 dead in a couple of days.
You can be certain it would be met with the most sweeping condemnation, that the US president-elect would do a great deal more than "monitor" the situation and the British prime minister go much further than simply call for "restraint" on both sides.
But that is in fact all they did do, though the British government has since joined the call for a ceasefire. There has, of course, been no western denunciation of the Israeli slaughter - such aerial destruction is, after all, routinely called in by the US and Britain in occupied Iraq and Afghanistan.
Instead, Hamas and the Palestinians of Gaza are held responsible for what has been visited upon them. How could any government not respond with overwhelming force to the constant firing of rockets into its territory, the Israelis demand, echoed by western governments and media.
But that is to turn reality on its head. Like the West Bank, the Gaza Strip has been - and continues to be - illegally occupied by Israel since 1967. Despite the withdrawal of troops and settlements three years ago, Israel maintains complete control of the territory by sea, air and land. And since Hamas won the Palestinian elections in 2006, Israel has punished its 1.5 million people with an inhuman blockade of essential supplies, backed by the US and the European Union.
Like any occupied people, the Palestinians have the right to resist, whether they choose to exercise it or not. But there is no right of defence for an illegal occupation - there is an obligation to withdraw comprehensively. During the last seven years, 14 Israelis have been killed by mostly homemade rockets fired from the Gaza Strip, while more than 5,000 Palestinians were killed by Israel with some of the most advanced US-supplied armaments in the world. And while no rockets are fired from the West Bank, 45 Palestinians have died there at Israel's hands this year alone. The issue is of course not just the vast disparity in weapons and power, but that one side is the occupier, the other the occupied.
Hamas is likewise blamed for last month's breakdown of the six-month tahdi'a, or lull. But, in a weary reprise of past ceasefires, it was in fact sunk by Israel's assassination of six Hamas fighters in Gaza on 5 November and its refusal to lift its siege of the embattled territory as expected under an Egyptian-brokered deal. The truth is that Israel and its western sponsors have set their face against an accommodation with the Palestinians' democratic choice and have instead thrown their political weight, cash and arms behind a sustained attempt to overthrow it.
The complete failure of that approach has brought us to this week's horrific pass. Israeli leaders believe they can bomb Hamas into submission with a "decisive blow" that will establish a "new security environment" - and boost their electoral fortunes in the process before Barack Obama comes to office.
But as with Israel's disastrous assault on Lebanon two years ago - or its earlier siege of Yasser Arafat's PLO in Beirut in 1982 - it is a strategy that cannot succeed. Even more than Hezbollah, Hamas's appeal among Palestinians and beyond doesn't derive from its puny infrastructure, or even its Islamist ideology, but its spirit of resistance to decades of injustice. So long as it remains standing in the face of this onslaught, its influence will only be strengthened. And if it is not with rockets, its retaliation is bound to take other forms, as Hamas's leader Khalid Mish'al made clear at the weekend.
Meanwhile, the US and Israeli-backed Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas has been further diminished by being seen as having colluded in the Israeli assault on his own people - as has the already rock-bottom credibility of the Egyptian regime. What is now taking place in the Palestinian territories is a futile crime in which the US and its allies are deeply complicit - and unless Obama is prepared to change course, it is likely to have bitter consequences that will touch us all.[/b]
