BTW
Richard Falk the UN human rights investigator who described Israel's blockade of Gaza as "a flagrant and massive violation of international humanitarian law" and " a crime against humanity" was expelled by Israel.
[url] http://www.democracynow.org/2008/12/17/days_after_calling_israeli_blockade_of [/url]
Which is funny, because I thought countries which expelled UN inspectors risked being invaded by the US ?
.
Oh yes ........... and Richard Falk is an American Jew.
So not your typical Hamas supporter then.......
What gets me about all this is that can none of the Israeli government see the parallels with the warsaw ghetto and the pale of settlement and the various pogroms the jews have suffered. they now do this to someone else.
Thankyou TJ - that is exactly why I started the thread.
TJ, good to see you back old chap!
A very salient point as well.
I understand yer basic national defence doctrine (i.e. if missiles were raining down on Somerset from Devon...), but what gets me is the casual indifference of many Israeli onlookers (like those two girls at the border, interviewed on [i]Newsnight[/i]) to the wholesale slaughter of women and children. As if dead civilians were no more than - now, what's the word? - [i]untermenschen[/i].
To be fair, the creation of Israel was sanctioned by the UN - and the existence of Gaza as a refugee camp is entirely down to the refusal by neighbouring arab states to accept the displaced palestinians as a gesture of realpolitik.
Additionally, comments like Genocide are, frankly, ridiculous - ten days of high intensity military action in one of the most population dense areas of the planet have resulted in approximately 100 civilian casualties (UN figures) - to be honest thats pretty remarkable!
Lets bear in mind, population of about 1.5 million, death rate due to natural causes would be roughly 65 per day, so its not as if there's a huge rise in mortality, the hysterical allegations simply don't stack up!
[i]"So, statistically at least, nobody has been killed in the recent Israeli campaign!
Bargain"[/i]
source: ARRSE
Hello labrat. Bargain, eh?
I put my 18 month old to bed last night. Kissed him gently on the forehead as he slipped off to sleep. Lay him down in his cot, snuggled him in etc.
A few hours later I saw a chap on the news kiss his baby son, much the same as I had done earlier. Only this chap was kissing his little one for the last time. Unlike my little one, who sprang into life at 6am this morning, this little one will never wake up. And also, unlike me, that poor chap will never see his little man grow up.
Now I'm no expert on what is going on over there, but what is apparent to me is the senseless & brutal waste of life. I know little of Hamas, & what they stand for, but FFS surely its time this atrocity was stopped.
That Hamas are a bunch of murdering cowards who hide behind a civilian population is not in doubt (all terrorists are the same) the issue is that the amount of force being used is indefensible. Shame on you Isreal.
One persons terrorist is another's freedom fighter. Israel was based / built on terrorism - the stern gang and so on. These people blew up British army forces
Perhap Zulu-Eleven could set this Norwegian medic right - http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4698406n.
I don't much care for Hamas (especially not the likes of the late Nizar "suicide dad" Rayyan), but the IDF pretence that shelling civilians is going to somehow help establish a lasting peace is ****ing laughable. It will do quite the opposite.
As I commented the other evening if Israel wants peace it should provide Gaza with jobs, employment and wealth. Poverty breeds terrorists. But as usual there appears absolutely no end-game with this, no plan for the future, regime change appears to mean regime distruction and an even poorer and angrier population.
NUTS!
[i]Hello labrat. Bargain, eh?[/i]
Tongue firmly in cheek noteeth ;op - doesn't take away the fact that the [b]independent[/b] statistics don't support the allegations!
Additionally, comments like Genocide are, frankly, ridiculous - ten days of high intensity military action in one of the most population dense areas of the planet have resulted in approximately 100 civilian casualties
Erm, more like getting on for 500, and rising every day.
Military action resulting in deaths of large numbers of civilians, with no justifiable reason, with race or religion being one of the motivating factors= GENOCIDE.
Why should the 'displaced' Palestinians be forced to move elsewhere? Why should neighbouring states be forced to take them in?
I make no claim to be an expert in this, but I would have thought one way that the Israelis could be dealing with this, is by withdrawing it's citizens that live within the range of Hamas' rockets, to a safe distance, placing it's troops on the Palestinian border, and be ready to defend it's own borders, nothing more. That way, Hamas' rockets would not be killing any innocent Israeli civilians, and the Israeli troops would be far better protected. most of the munitions Hamas is flinging over are relatively weak; more anti-personnel weapons than heavy duty building destroyers.
This way, Israel would gain a hell of a lot more sympathy, and the onus would be on Hamas, to engage in further peace talks.
Israel may be a modern, progressive Westernised nation, but that doesn't exempt it from being run by evil tyrants, democratically elected or not. They can't hide behind the veneer of respectability, just because they are 'friends' with the West.
And it's these ties with the USA and Britain especially, that hinder any peaceful progress. As Long as thses two nations continue to support Israel, economicallly and militarily, this situation will only get worse.
We can start, by boycotting Israeli goods. Personally, I think imposing sanctions against israel, and forbidding the trade of everything, especially weapons, would have an immediate impact.
Israel is just acting like a bully with big brothers, knows it can act with impunity. Time for all of us that do not like what is going on, to put pressure on our government, to act. Personally, I think the UN should steam into Israel, and prevent them from carrying out any more military action.
Iraq invaded Kuwait, and the West steamed in. So why aren't they, this time?
"the independent statistics"
How clear would you say the picture on the ground is, right now?
(ps. forums come and go, Empires crumble into dust, STWers remain the same... )
[i]maybe if hamass or wot ever they are called , would stop lobbing missiles , sit down and ****ing talk , then all the sh*t would stop[/i]
Maybe, but since Israel, the US and the EU won't talk to Hamas (and Israel imprisoned their MP's), who should they talk to?
Plus, Israel have bombed their TV, radio and communication centres, so I'd say dialogue might be a bit difficult right now...
Perhaps they could air drop Bush and Blair in to have a chat?
I'd volunteer to drop-kick Bliar and Bush into Palestine.
'Oh, sorry, didn't get very far with that kick, better try again' (and repeat). All the way into Gaza City.
Shock and awe.
The pictures of dead children today. Some Western journalists are very brave.
I think this thread wins the best Troll of 2009!
(so far)
[i]maybe if hamass or wot ever they are called , would stop lobbing missiles , sit down and ****ing talk , then all the sh*t would stop
Maybe, but since Israel, the US and the EU won't talk to Hamas (and Israel imprisoned their MP's), who should they talk to? [/i]
Hamas refuses to recognise Israel as a state. I don't think that helps matters either. On the Hamas-side: a country thats only been formed for 6 decades is going to rankle somewhat with the locals isnt it?..
[i]Erm, more like getting on for 500, and rising every day.[/i]
UN Report - 4Th jan, 1700h:
As of this evening, the MoH reports casualty figures since the beginning of the Israeli military operation on
27 December of 491 dead and approximately 2,400 injured, out of which figures, at least 20 percent of the
fatalities and 40 percent of the injuries are women and children.
[i]Why should the 'displaced' Palestinians be forced to move elsewhere? Why should neighbouring states be forced to take them in?[/i]
Ask the UN, they created Israel, and there is a duty on all nations to accept refugees - wonder why this has not happened - as I said, victims of middle eastern realpolitik
I could quite easily counter with "why should Israel have to withdraw to the 1967 border, when its land that they rightfully won after being attacked by neighbouring states intent on their destruction - blame the other nations for attacking in the first place"...
Two sides to every story and all that!
Who "made" Israel in the first place?
An ancient novel explained that it was once inhabited by a certain people a thousand years ago. Then in the mid-twentieth century Terrorists blew up a hotel and committed terrorist acts against a war-weakened Britain. Freedom fighter and Terrorist- all have different meanings to certain people.
Is this thread going to last as long as the Isreali "campaign"? Can we just talk about weeing in shoes and bashing singlespeeders instead?
I know I will get flamed for this but once all Palestinians are finally driven out and into Egypt Israel will suddenly stop their fighting and the land will be theirs. Israel wants them out. Whether we agree or not- thats where its going.
When you say "Israel" hora, you mean America (and the UK) surly?
Is this happening before or after hell freezes over Hora?
Oh definitely before. I bet in our lifetime.
O/T - I once went out with an Israeli girl. Stunning but she was utterly convinced and (I wasnt arguing I was shagging) read off as if by rote (as though someone and had told her word for word over and over again) why Israel was always right in everything and was the countries of all countries etc etc. Scarily brainwashed. Stupidly I reminded her that I might not be kosher and she dumped me in a flash. Ah well.
"Scarily brainwashed"? Like everyone at the trail centers riding 6in full sus bikes, becuase that's what you "need"?
If someone keeps firing homemade rockets what are you going to do? Let them?
Ya right let me shoot/aim some fireworks (not rocket) at your home and feel that. Then see if you can sit or relax and let me continue with my 'fun'.
Hamas knows Israel is going to retaliate and that's exactly what they want so they gain sympathy vote via the media. They need something to show their people (their voters) that they are doing something what better to do then to fire rockets at Israel eh. That makes them the hero of the Palestinian cause. Then all they got to do is hide behind children, women and old folks when the Israeli's rockets fall on them. Now they are crying foul ... what do they expect? Israel throwing home make pie at them? Hamas knows exactly well that civilians are going to suffer and kill but do they care? No of course now. They are the heros remember?
When Hamas fires rocket at Israel I don't see anyone complaining ...
🙄
[i]"Scarily brainwashed"? Like everyone at the trail centers riding 6in full sus bikes, becuase that's what you "need"? [/i]
Not a good analogy I'm afraid. If you applied me/her to that it would be like me offering a 10inch monster DH bike for her trail centre use.....honest
Sofatester- if you have no interest in this thread, or no desire to add anything interesting, then there are plenty of other threads to read.
Why not start an interesting thread of your own? Now there's a mad concept.
[i]Is this happening before or after hell freezes over Hora?[/i]
I'd say Hora is probably right, vile and disgusting though that situation will be.
I think we should send Sofatester to solve the problems - he obviously knows a wealth of information on the subject and has such a mature way of conveying it.
Rudeboy/Zokes - How do we fix the problems over there? And to answer the original post, are the Isrealis the new Nazis?
I'm far to ignorant of world afairs to understand...
1 million were killed in Rwanda but who cares about them? Who is their voice to keep their memory alive? Only Journalists.
The near future also holds a scary thought. The return of stronger antisemitism. Sadly brought about, in part by Jews themselves.
We thought [u]you[/u] knew, given your comments!
How to solve the problems:
Send in Peace keepers
Stop supplying Isreal with multi-billion dollar weapon grants
Force Isreal using whatever diplomatic or other means necessary to observe UN directives on border blockades etc
Allow Palestinians the ability to build a functioning economy, and stop bombing what little of it there was
Get the two parties back to the negotiating table
Some of those are more realistic than others, but probably all neccessary to some degree. The ultimate answer would be to convince both sides to stop fighting over two different versions of a fictional book.....
Just heard on the radio, about the sudden spate of Anti-Semitic 'incidents' that have occurred in London, over the last week. Apparently, a Jewish cemetery has been desecrated, and a gang were shouting Anti-Semitic slogans.
A reaction to recent events? Guaranteed. Justified? No. Hateful and Xenophobic? Definitely. Provoked by Jewish people here? No way.
I have several Jewish friends. I would hate to think their freedom and safety is in any danger.
This is not just a problem isolated to Palestine.
As i said before, when you say "Israel" you mean the USA & UK don't you?
"The ultimate answer would be to convince both sides to stop fighting over two different versions of a fictional book."
Just imagine that.
[i]How to solve the problems:
Send in Peace keepers
Stop supplying Isreal with multi-billion dollar weapon grants
Force Isreal using whatever diplomatic or other means necessary to observe UN directives on border blockades etc
Allow Palestinians the ability to build a functioning economy, and stop bombing what little of it there was
Get the two parties back to the negotiating table[/i]
Good ideas, but all rejected by Israel and the US.
All rejected by US arm firms, through their lobbyists, strong connections to Congress and scare-tactics that Israel must be Hawkish to survive?
[i]Provoked by Jewish people here? No way.[/i]. Aye but all will suffer. Here it's own the idiots of society. What is worrying is reaction within the region and further afield.
Clarks are doing a massive trade...........
Still, Israel really has scored an own goal with this one.
4 versus 550 (inc 100 children). That is one heck of a own-goal.
