I am not a blind supporter of the actions of my government, they didn't ask my approval regarding the use of cluster bombs in the last Lebanon war nor would they have gained it if they had.
I don't remember asking for sympathy for my nation or for myself. I am expressing my own personal opinion, and stand by it.
All extremism is crap and all extremists are c**ts and should be stabbed to death whilst they are still suckling at their mothers breast, then they and their mothers should be boiled in oil as an example to the rest of you ****ers......... that and rendering them down after would solve population issues and the fuel crisis simultaneously, and is obviously the way forward that any of us right thinking and God fearing folk would come to if we gave up the triple sins of sex drugs and alcohol and rode our bikes religiously every sunday .......Am I right?..... Can I have an Amen on that?
😉
FFS Tanky when are you going to stop winding people up and get over here to the flat lands to ride your bike? We've got a round of Thetford Winter Series Race at our place on the 25th, and I bet I can persuade the old snuffler to let you sleep in the spare room that weekend, and then we can get right royally pi44ed and everything! 8)
G
Yet you appear to condone the actions of your nation, and act as an apologist for it.
As for terrorism, ever heard of [url= http://i-cias.com/e.o/mossad.htm ]Mossad?[/url]
Eh, Mossad ?
Why look at just Mossad ?
Surely the IDF can be classed as a terrorist organisation ?
Dear me...I do hope someone comes and shuts this thread down soon.
DrJ
I agree with your assertion that if the Palestinians had more chance for a proper future they would not be driven to desperate means. However I fail to see what they expect to acheive by the indescriminate launching of rockets against a civilian population, particularly after Israel has already withdrawn from their territory (in the case of the Gaza strip). Nothing NOTHING can justify the criminal murder of Palestinians on extremist racist settlers, who literally do get away with murder, as this is not dealt with seriously by our government. I totally agree, and have in the past excercised my democratic right to protest against such abuses.
However, in the case of the Hamas regime in Gaza, we are not talking about a few Palestinians throwing stones in frustration at their occupation. We are talking about the criminal actions of an organization responsible for the goverment of the Gaza Strip and the welfare of over 1.5 million residents. This organization had the ability to choose not to attack innocent Israeli citizens on a regular basis. I fail to see what benefit this brings to the popultation of Gaza, or how it could possibly improve their situation? We [i]made[/i] them do it? Their interests would be far better served by peacefully stating their point, by demonstrating their ability to resposibly govern the Gaza strip in preparation for proper statehood. This would display to the world their legitimate right to a state, and undermine any justification for Israeli aggression or occupation. In their clinging to irrational violence, they have lost any moral ground they may have had. Israel has declared war on Hamas with disastrous consequences for the innocent residents of Gaza, and for the Palestinians as a whole. Israel is responsible for the defence of its civilians against such mindless aggression which CANNOT be justified. Anybody who justifies these attacks merely gives sanction to the continuation of the inevitable war which now manifests itself, and cannot claim to seriously promote the eleviation of the suffering of the Palestinian people.
Good Night, the outcome of this war of words isn't going anywhere, just the same as the "peace" process. Very, very depressing. Not getting slagged off by you lot, a lot of people are going to be doing some very real suffering tonight, it's cold out. And for what, the arrogant gesturing of a bunch of criminal lunatics? IGMC.
I do hope someone comes and shuts this thread down soon.
I don't. At least this is a forum where people can share/exchange ideas, and have a reasonably intelligent debate. And maybe some of us will be inspired to find out more, and learn something. And maybe, just maybe, use that knowledge for good.
[i]However I fail to see what they expect to acheive by the indescriminate launching of rockets against a civilian population[/i]
What they expect to achieve is a place at the negotiating table, once the Israelis have realised that the legitimate aspirations of a nation will not be destroyed by the military jackboot. Unfortunately for all concerned, the Israelis are rather stupid in realising this, which prolongs the suffering on all sides.
[i]particularly after Israel has already withdrawn from their territory (in the case of the Gaza strip)[/i]
As has already been pointed out to you a few times, this is just a fiction as long as the Israelis control all access to and from Gaza. Gaza has no autonomy or independent existence. Israel has created the world's biggest concentration camp.
[i]Their interests would be far better served by peacefully stating their point, by demonstrating their ability to resposibly govern the Gaza strip in preparation for proper statehood.[/i]
This has been tried over and over again, but the Israelis never give anything in return for peace - either in Palestine or in Lebanon. They have a blank cheque from the US to do anything they like, and they are happy to use it, for short term political reasons, ignoring the bigger picture for themselves, and never giving a tinker's cuss for the Palestinian "untermenschen".
who are the criminal lunatics then I keep getting a bit confused here?
Well done for at least trying to explain/defend etc whilst i do not agree with your governments actions (which I know is not the same as your action unlike some on here)or some of what you have said you have earned my respect for at least trying and never rising to the personal attacks some have thrown at you.
Sleep safe and lets hope we can all wake up in a better world.
[i]the arrogant gesturing of a bunch of criminal lunatics[/i]
A perfect description. Fits the Israelis to a "t".
Reasonably intelligent debate? Er, yes quite. The latter posts? I think not. Whargrider has the right idea. Good night.
FWIW I also respect Whargrider, whatever our differences may be. Takes some bottle to come on here, and fly in the face of popular opinion.
If there was an occupying force in this country, I would be not be reasonable, peaceable, or willing to sit down to negotiate.
Thus I cannot expect the Palestinians to behave differently. This will not and should stop until they get their country back.
the palestinians are damned if they do, damned if they dont
Your concern for the suffering of the Palestinian people is truly touching WhargRider.
And I'm sure that many Zionists share in this concern.
It reminds me of how the Nazis also shared a deep and touching concern for the well-being of the Jewish people. All the Jews had to do they argued, was to fully cooperate with them, get onto the trains that would transport them to the East, whereupon they would start a new happy life.
Right up to the point where they walked through the concentration camp gates below a sign which declared :
[b]"WORK MAKES FREE !"[/b]
[img] 
[/img]
And even then, the Nazis insisted that the gas chambers be fitted with shower fittings. Because hey, the Nazis only wanted the Jews to be clean and smelling sweetly.
Yes, very very touching indeed.
.
BTW, the Hamas rockets are in response to the Israeli attempt to starve the Palestinians with the enforcement of a blockade. Hamas has said that the rocket attacks will cease if the blockade is lifted.
and so we continue to go round in a circle......
One things for absolute certain, the conflict will be resolved when its resolved, in a room around a table bit like Northern Ireland was. How about we jump the intermediate stages and get to the table bit straight away, then everyone can bugger off and ride their bikes which IMHO is a great outcome.
Oh and by the way my previous post was written with tongue barely in cheek.
Bless and good night
G
[i]One things for absolute certain, the conflict will be resolved when its resolved, in a room around a table bit like Northern Ireland was. How about we jump the intermediate stages and get to the table bit straight away, then everyone can bugger off and ride their bikes which IMHO is a great outcome.[/i]
Good plan, but as long as Israel refuses to speak to Hamas, it can't happen.
Without wishing to spin the roundabout again, I do believe that is a case of both sides going "you first, no YOU first, No you , No You"......etc etc ad infinitum and that ends up with sleeves rolled up and them both rolling around on the ground playground bullies having a punch up.
I reckon the best way to resolve these things is to internationally enforce a law to the effect that anytime a country wants to go to war the children of all their politcians and their extended familes must enlist in the Infantry and be the first to go into action on every occasion that military action is deemed necessary.
Pretty sure most conflicts would not get past go and certainly would not collect £200.
Thinking about it, I should rule the world. We'd have more singletrack, no tax on bike bling, free Stella and Red wine on presentation of an empty camelback with dirt on it, special holding pens for women with PMT, with very high walls and soundproofing, and thats just on day one! Then on Day 2 we'd abolish the FC and replace it with the Singletrack forum, then we'd make all kids learn how to hold a several hour long conversation on appropriate tyre choice..........
Vote for G...... its the way forward, you know it makes sense!
For those who think that the Palestine/Zionist problem can resolved as easily as the Northern Ireland question, I fear that you are deeply misguided.
Quite apart from anything else, there is the little problem of almost 5 million Palestinian refugees in the world.
Yes, that's 5 million people driven off their own land.
Vote for G!!!
The state of Israel is inbetween a rock and a hard place. If they do nothing Arab interests from surrounding countries will over run them in anyway possible. Remember there are a few in the world who see Israel as an extension of America. Israeli politicians know that a Hawkish-stance wins votes to boot. If you look deeper into the Orthodox/Secular-mix of the population you'll see that the Orthodox birth rate outstrips Secular-Jews. This in its self is going to create huge problems in the future.
All the best to both sides to be honest. I don't see any solution anytime soon. Decades of strife lay ahead.
Hora- still talking bollocks, I see!
And how will the increase in the numbers of orthodox Jews become a problem? Many orthodox Jews are actually opposed to Zionism, as the concept goes against their teachings. And Zionism itself is used as a veil for Western attempts at cultural and economic hegemony.
You're right about their being decades of strife ahead, though. As long as there is conflict and struggle in the Middle East, the West can continue to impose it's will on the rest of the World. And sell it's guns and bombs.
Its well known that Secular Jews contribute alot to the economy whereas a large percentage of Orthodox/ultra etc devote the majority of their time to scriptures etc. Theres an inbalance of income etc. That is going to be a big future problem. Plus what you dont hear that much in news reports- alot of Israeli's are against the violence and feel uncomfortable about the Palestinian problem.
That's absolute bullshit, Hora, I'm afraid. Sounds like a bit of anti-orthodox propaganda, to me.
I know Jewish people here, who do business with people in Israel. Many of those are orthodox Jews. Many of whom are quite affluent.
And go take a walk round somewhere like Stamford Hill, where many businesses are Jewish-owned. Go and look at the houses people live in. And tell me they're sitting around writing scriptures!
Oh vey
[i]Plus what you dont hear that much in news reports- alot of Israeli's are against the violence and feel uncomfortable about the Palestinian problem.[/i]
In that case they have the opportunity to vote out the party that leads them to war, and to publically express their opposition to being involved in murder. Israel is (as they keep reminding us) a democracy, so they can't claim that they are fighting against the wishes of the population.
[i] Israel is (as they keep reminding us) a democracy, so they can't claim that they are fighting against the wishes of the population. [/i]
It's quite possible that the people who are against violence aren't voting for them. It's also possible that people are voting for the government, not because they are warmongers, but that despite them being warmongers they are more credible than the opposition. Pure conjecture on my part I'd freely admit, but just cos you live in a democracy doesn't mean you get the government you'd like.
The thing is it's not really a difficult problem to solve. Everyone knows that Israel has to withdraw to it's 1967 borders, the Arab nations have to ackwnollege the existance of Israel as a legitamate state, and Jerusalem will need some joint or independent control, something akin to the vatican state maybe. All sides broadly realise that this is the only solution that can bring some semblence of peace, but they're all too wrapped up in the baggage of the past to start moving forward to this 🙁
ernie_lynch - Member said :-
For those who think that the Palestine/Zionist problem can resolved as easily as the Northern Ireland question, I fear that you are deeply misguided.
Quite apart from anything else, there is the little problem of almost 5 million Palestinian refugees in the world.Yes, that's 5 million people driven off their own land
So of course theres no Irish people who had that happen to them then?
Wally!
Anyway moving on to more important issues Day 3 : One set of free tyres per week on presentation of your bike at your local bike shop. Chain Reaction and Wiggle nationalised, whilst all local bike shops are to have free coffee and cake, plus fit serving birds that talk endless shop whilst leaning their ample cleavages over the counter. DIY lessons for all females, including special emphasis on the significance of doing all major DIY jobs around the house whilst sending your partner off riding to the proof of female equality, All dual carriageways to have the nearside lane turned into bike lanes, the establishment of the annual M25 both ways bike race, one lap clockwise followed by one lap anticlockwise......... still going.......
Ernie - As easily as the N.I. question - oh good, nearly 40 years and 4000 dead - when can we drop you into Gaza then?
G
[i]special holding pens for women with PMT, with very high walls and soundproofing, and thats just on day one![/i]
Love it! You have a career in politics beckoning there fella'!
G - MemberSo of course theres no Irish people who had that happen to them then?
Wally!
Yes of course, I forgot about the millions of stateless Irish living in refugee camps scattered throughout Europe, which had to be considered during the NI peace process.
I'm obviously a complete wally 😳
.
Slapper - I'm intrigued to know what you're talking about - do tell 😕
A national LAN game of "sabotage" on COD4 should settle this. With no ReSpawn of course!
Plus what you dont hear that much in news reports- alot of Israeli's are against the violence and feel uncomfortable about the Palestinian problem.
This is very true hora. In the same way that many whites in South Africa were appalled by the racist Apartheid regime's policies, many Jews (incl ones in Israel) are disgusted by the actions of the Israeli government. Something which should never be forgotten.
And moreover unlike white South Africans, those Jews who oppose the Israeli government are subjected to the particularly nasty vilification of being labelled "self-haters"
G - Long time no see! you decided to brave STW again then, or was it you that broke it? 😉
Gspecial holding pens for women with PMT, with very high walls and soundproofing, and thats just on day one!
Love it! You have a career in politics beckoning there fella'!
I think we should have a C2C reunion soon.....
Oh, and Palestine - Well, I've not really got much to add, so I'll butt out again now...
G - does sfb know your here?! WTF's Dibnah!
G - Member
So of course theres no Irish people who had that happen to them then?Wally!
Yes of course, I forgot about the millions of stateless Irish living in refugee camps scattered throughout Europe, which had to be considered during the NI peace process.
I'm obviously a complete wally
Eruope? No. America. There are more Irish Americans than Irish. There's probably more Irish in London than Ireland too.
Ah right, the millions of stateless Irish living in refugee camps in America, [u]not[/u] Europe.
Yes of course, they all had to be considered before the NI peace process could be implemented.
G is right - I really am a wally 😳 😳 😳
Not refugee camps no. Americans are rather more charitable than those arab fellas. Or more accurately it was never in Americas interest to amplify the suffering of displaced Irish.
[i]Americans are rather more charitable[/i]
And they were very charitable in supporting another murdering terrorist group, the IRA.
....
And they were very charitable in supporting another murdering terrorist group, the IRA.
Yep. The cheeky monkies.
What goes round comes round.
So it's going pretty well today, nice high death toll, plenty of civilian casualties - it really is a lovely war!
The Israelis are right to act against the missile attacks from Gaza but their response is totally disproportionate.
I've just watched footage on the news of the hundreds of Palestinian civilian casualties and it made me think that it's really not that surprising that much of the world hates Israel (and to an extent, by proxy the US)
Seems that most of the victims of the recent Israeli attacks are civilians.
[url=
Which makes this genocide, not 'war'.
Time the UN stepped in. WTF is it for, if not to try and prevent this kind of thing?
If Iran, ****stan, Ethiopia, Syria, Somalia etc were ding this, it would be denounced as senseless slaughter. Israel is quite literaly, getting away with murder.
I wonder where the Whargrider is, tonight? I wonder if he's now relfecting on his ill-chosen and ill-judged comments, yesterday?
Sick. Utterly sick.
How can anyone claim this is justified, no matter what the act against them?
[img]
The Israelis are right to act against the missile attacks from Gaza
OK
There appears to be a serious misunderstanding about who the aggressor actually is.
In June last year Hamas agreed to a six month ceasefire with Israel.
On the 4th of November Israel broke the ceasefire by killing six Palestinians in Gaza.
Up until that point in the ceasefire [u]not one single Israeli had been killed[/u] by Hamas.
.
Of cause Israel likes to do it dirty work when it believes the world isn't watching (at the moment it won't allow reporters into the killing zone) So it chose the 4th of November the day the world was witnessing the historical election of the first ever black US president. It knew that it's blatant violation of the ceasefire wouldn't make the front pages of the world's newspapers.
They hoped no one would notice. Judging by some of the comments on here, the strategy seems to have been quite successful.
Furthermore, Israel was bound by the terms of the ceasefire to lift it's blockade of the Gaza Strip.
A barbaric and inhumane blockade which the United Nations Human Rights Investigator describe as, quote :
[b]"a flagrant and massive violation of international humanitarian law"[/b]
And
[b]" a crime against humanity"[/b]
Israel failed in it's obligations and the blockade was not lifted. The cost in Palestinian lives is not known.
The aggressor is Israel, and Palestinians are the victims.
.
BTW, this latest Israeli bloodbath has nothing to do with responding to Hamas, and everything to do with the fact that there will be a national election in Israel on Feb 10th.
And of course in 2 weeks time there will a new US president who might not be quite as easy on the Israelis as the present one.
Now is the time to kill as many Palestinians as possible.
