[Closed] anyone on here voted SNP. why?

Yes, and look what all that got them - a party that's more left-wing than Labour, with the highest proprtion of LGBT MPs in Europe, a party that likes immigrants, hates nuclear weapons, and doesn't believe in austerity.

It's almost as if they're not doing what the Murdoch press what them to do. What can they be thinking?

doesn't believe in austerity.

But anti EU?

Brussels today rebuked Britain for “not taking effective action” to cut the deficit.

But anti EU?

Who, the SNP? The SNP are very pro-EU.

Well if the EU aren't happy with a country that hasn't cut its deficit quickly enough, imagine what they would think of one which does not believe in austerity.

And after all our austerity (sic) ....what can those Eurocrats possibly be thinking?

Well it is difficult to know becuase they said this with a straight face

"These recommendations are not about Brussels lecturing governments," Pierre Moscovici, EU commissioner for economic affairs, said.
"They are about encouraging national efforts to deliver the jobs and growth that we collectively need."

a party that's more left wing than Labour

The SNP’s progressive credentials don’t, in any case, stand up to serious scrutiny. When Sturgeon was asked at her manifesto launch to name a redistributive policy enacted by the SNP in Holyrood, she was unable to cite a single example. There has been plenty of middle class welfarism, but no effective measures to reduce inequality or poverty. Indeed, the SNP in power has resembled nothing as much as New Labour in its pomp, combining the worst reflexes of authoritarian statism and market liberalism with a superior, “we know best” attitude that brooks no opposition.

With the creation of a single national police force, the routine use of armed response units, a stop and search rate four times higher than the rest of the UK and plans to create an integrated ID database, the SNP has strayed into areas that even Tony Blair’s Home Secretaries backed away from. A new ‘named person’ law will create an army of state employed snoopers with a right to pry into the affairs of every family. The party has also taken a lurch towards democratic centralism with a new gagging rule that obliges its MPs to "accept that no member shall within or outwith the parliament publicly criticise a group decision, policy or another member of the group".

The SNP’s ‘business friendly’ approach of sucking up to powerful tycoons like Donald Trump, Brian Souter and Rupert Murdoch is scarcely any better then Blair’s cloying embrace of the super-rich, and arguably worse. The party’s flagship post-independence economic policy of attracting multinational companies by slashing corporation tax and undercutting the welfare budgets of other countries is the sort of tax piracy beloved of the neo-liberal right. The SNP’s claims to be anti-austerity have been revealed as baseless. Only opposition to Trident sets it apart; hardly an act of principle given that an independent Scotland wouldn’t be able to afford nuclear weapons.

That new Statesman article was probably written by the Tories. I was going to say by Jim Murphy but if he'd done it then he wouldn't have included any disparaging comments about Tony Blair.

With the creation of a single national police force, the routine use of armed response units, a stop and search rate four times higher than the rest of the UK and plans to create an integrated ID database, the SNP has strayed into areas that even Tony Blair’s Home Secretaries backed away from. A new ‘named person’ law will create an army of state employed snoopers with a right to pry into the affairs of every family.

What ridiculous examples - those aren't clear left/right issues.

I made the point over a week ago that the SNP was not a left-wing party beyond its rhetoric and that on many issues was to the right of the Labour Party by giving genuine examples of left/right issues :

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/election-campaign/page/35#post-6881999

The 'named person' law is a disgrace IMO. Yet more government interfering in peoples lives. Worse where is the money coming from for these extra people or if they are dumping it on teachers than that's even worse. Sales pitch 'hey guys we know you are busy enough teaching but how about we now land you with a load of legal responsibility and no extra money, deal?'

National Police force, 'named persons' and the National ID database. Progressive my arse. It's a country wide surveillance scheme that Westminster can only dream of.

Donald Trump is an arse and was dumped by AS in due course. Mistake.
Brian Souter travels between business meetings on public transport with papers in a plastic bag, he employs several thousand people in a vital and necessary industry throughout the UK and lives in Scotland. As does Ann Gloag, a well known philanthropist.
Rupert Murdoch owns the Sun, I very much doubt the SNP courted him so much as he came out in support of them when he realised they were the dominant force and he could sell more newspapers. His worth to Scotland and the SNP is nil.

As to the issues over Police Scotland, if you were to actually follow what goes in in Holyrood you will find some pretty scathing assessments of Steven House's tenure at the head of Police Scotland. The problem facing NS is who to replace him with. I very much doubt he'll last long after her "vote of confidence"

Edit -I agree that the "named persons law" is pish but I do at this time feel that the SNP will actually listen to the electorate when this comes to the fore and scrap or replace it.

That new Statesman article was probably written by the Tories.

Epic engagement with the facts and substantive arguments there, Steve.

Rupert Murdoch['s]...worth to Scotland and the SNP is nil

Really? It seems odd that Salmond would have met with Murdoch and other NewsCorp execs more than 24 times, then.

Salmond enjoys this type of relationship with several wealthy right-wing figures from across the world. He "called in" a golf course for Donald Trump above the wishes of local residents. He accepted donations from Stagecoach boss Brian Souter shortly before changing SNP policy on bus regulation. The list goes on.

The full extent of Salmond's friendship with Murdoch only really came to light during the phone-hacking scandal. A month after the News of the World shut down it was revealed Salmond had held over two dozen meetings with Murdoch, his son James - who ran News International and BSkyB - and other Murdoch editors and executives...

During this time the SNP developed a secret policy of backing Murdoch's BSkyB bid, which was not to be made public. Emails released by News Corporation showed Salmond agreed to make a call to Jeremy Hunt, then media secretary, to support the takeover attempt.

Meanwhile, social events continued apace. Salmond and Murdoch exchanged gushing letters, held private dinners and offered each other tickets to sporting events. Salmond was Murdoch's guest of honour for an unveiling of his company's new printing presses. Murdoch was given tickets by Salmond to see a National Theatre play on Iraq. He then sent him tickets to the Ryder Cup golf tournament as an official Scottish government guest. The media mogul was the first minister's guest of honour at a special pageant in Edinburgh castle. Murdoch called Salmond the "most brilliant politician in UK".

The friendship coincided with a period of growing support for the SNP from Murdoch's Scottish newspaper. In 2007 the Sun put the SNP logo in a noose on its front page with a dire warning about calamity if Scots opted for the nationalists. But by the next election it abandoned its support for Labour and swung behind Salmond. Editor David Dinsmore wrote to him days afterwards congratulating him on his "astonishing victory".

I suppose there are two options:

1) the SNP is genuinely a left-wing party, and evil right wing billionaire R Murdoch (fifty years of experience in manipulating politics in Australia, the US and UK at national and subnational levels) and evil right wing multimillionaires Ann Gloag and Brian Souter (made a fortune from Thatcherite privatisations and deregulation) have been outmaneuvered by plucky social democrats Salmond and Sturgeon

2) the SNP is not a left-wing party but a populist party

Brian Souter travels between business meetings on public transport with papers in a plastic bag

So because Brian Souter uses transport companies which he owns and carries papers in a plastic bag this proves that the SNP are left-wing ?

😕 Really ?

Maybe the SNP is populist, because it's popular, because people think it's left-wing, because it does left-wing things?

This discussion is like that famous George Foulkes quote:

[img] [/img]

So because Brian Souter uses transport companies which he owns and carries papers in a plastic bag this proves that the SNP are left-wing ?

and yes I think RM is worth F'all to Scotland and the SNP.

Yeah, the New Statesman, well-known for being a Tory rag.

That's why my first view was that it would be straighforward Labour propaganda until I saw the Blair references.

It was 100% toeing the Tory party line though - which I suppose is much the same thing as the Labour party line these days.

Whatever - it was an article full of agenda and spin rather than any decent content.

teamhurtmore - Member

Jambalaya - Member

House! 😀

Actually I am referring to him having been seen on the The Tube, in that London place

Oh this gets better.........the SNP are left-wing because Brian Souter was once spotted on the London tube.

Can you hit me with any more irrefutable proof of the SNP's "left-wing" credentials ?

Anyone else carry their papers in a carrier bag ?

I'm more comfortable with a populist party than an ideologically driven one.

They might actually listen to the electorate rather than act on the the ideology of some long dead lunatic.

duckman - Member
House!

You must be very proud,

I'm more comfortable with a populist party than an ideologically driven one.

They might actually listen to the electorate rather than act on the the ideology of some long dead lunatic.

She only died two years ago...

Brian Souter travels between business meetings on public transport with papers in a plastic bag,

As does Ann Gloag, a well known philanthropist.

They're a lovely pair.

ernie_lynch - Member

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/election-campaign/page/35#post-6881999

Decent post that, for me the SNP is a means to an end at the moment, I am highly suspicious of them.

Personally I hope for separation of the Scottish Labour Party from the British Party(The can still be pro union). Hopefully, they'll realise this is what is required(after Murphy gets eventually punted.) Though I suspect it will take humilation in the Scottish elections for them to realise completely. I still reckon they are largely delusional at the moment.

In the absense of a real labour party, the greens is where it's at in Scotland for me. Time to give them a bit of a voice.

Personally I hope for separation of the Scottish Labour Party from the British Party(The can still be pro union).

I've just come back from a local trades council meeting and I raised that. Unless someone can offer me a credible suggestion to the contrary I think it's an excellent idea. That's a [i]fully independent[/i] Scottish Labour Party btw. Hopefully, imo, pro-Union.

From a Labour Party supporter's/member's (which I'm not) perspective it at least gives the Scottish Labour Party a chance to fight the SNP without one hand tied behind its back.

ernie_lynch - Member

From a Labour Party supporter's/member's (which I'm not) perspective it at least gives the Scottish Labour Party a chance to fight the SNP without one hand tied behind its back.

But I think if the union is to stay together it's a must for it to happen, as an independent Labour party is the only thing that will take support away from the SNP en masse, if they don't realise it we are on a slow road to separation, as much as I don't particular trust the SNPs for the working peoples claims, they are a fairly competent Party and will be able to chip away at the union over an extend period of time. The only other pro union opposition is the tories and the Lib Dems, and they've no chance of convincing Scotland.

I think it's plainly obvious the unions only chance is a rejuvenated independent Scottish Labour Party.

Incidently btw if the greens can eat into some of the unionist vote, that is a sign of things to come too. People go on about polls, but the Scottish parliament is a PR system, and if the make up of that place becomes less and less unionist. imo, it's pretty much a direct poll of what the people think. I don't think any government could deny the mandate for another ref if it went 70/30%.

I think it's plainly obvious the unions only chance is a rejuvenated independent Scottish Labour Party.

But can you imagine how scarey an electorally successful independent Scottish Labour Party which grabs the left-wing mantle from the SNP would be for the "blairite" political elite in London?

I don't claim to know much about Scottish politics but based on how Scots voted only 5 years ago it would appear that much of the SNP vote is potentially very soft, ie, for many voting SNP isn't a long held tradition built up over many decades/generations in the way the Labour vote previously was.

And whilst the general election was clearly an unprecedented catastrophe for Labour in Scotland it shouldn't be over estimated - Labour still managed to get nearly a quarter of the votes, that's a fairly solid base.

With that in mind and with the right policies for Scots/Scotland, Independent Scottish Labour would have the potential for a rapid electoral success, I would have thought.

That could only strike terror in the hearts of Blair and his Tory-lite clones, and all the more so if English-Welsh Labour remains in the electoral doldrums. The national Labour leadership has much to fear from a democratic and progressive Independent Scottish Labour Party.

For those reasons I suspect that a divorce is unlikely to be freely given and if Scottish Labour decides to break free it will have to declare UDI. I hope they do, for Scotland's sake and that of the rest of the UK.

I agree with a lot of that. I think the big question is whether they can become independent of the British party or if they become independent by default.

Not so sure about the fragility of the SNP vote, they've a lot of people behind them now and there will be a lot of factors in how they developed as a party. I reckon that they can be all things to all men at the minute is because, well that's what the make up of the party is at the minute. Its an interesting experiment and the ultimate resting place for them is anyone's guess. Its probably destined to break up at some point but whether that is 5 or 25 years is, again, anyones guess.

As for labours come back their demise goes back longer IMO so people won't forget that easily. But a break would speed that up massively.

I agree about the influence of a successful left wing labour party running Scotland. It's the same reason they fear independence. They are scared we'll go full socialist on them and make a good go at it! 😆

I am an Snp member but could well be tempted by a more left wing party in the right circumstances.The Snp is very centralised and I don't think it's plans to empower communities go far enough. While independence isn't everything to me I do see it as the best means of achieving real change in our way of government and how we go about our politics. To become independent and then stop without further changes would be a massive missed opportunity. We could be giving communities real power to make decisions for themselves and looking at participatory democracy etc.Anyway interesting posts Seosamh and Ernie

The Labour Party in Scotland can't become independent by default, there's legal implications apart from anything else.

And while there clearly is a long established SNP vote in Scotland it's also clear that at least some SNP support last week came from more recent and more reluctant former Labour voters, I would expect that vote to be softer. Although it will easier for the SNP to hang on to it now they've made the switch.

And independent Scottish Labour Party with different policies, eg, anti-austerity and anti-trident, might make the reason to vote SNP less significant though. Certainly if I was Scottish it would put me in a dilemma, ie, I would more than likely vote independent Scottish Labour whereas last Thursday I would without doubt have voted SNP rather than Labour (unless there were extraordinary local considerations).

Because Scots can't handle being the little inconsequential bit at the top of the UK?

Selfishness.

With the current price of oil, you can't afford independence and have no cards to play.

The only other pro union opposition is the tories and the Lib Dems, and they've no chance of convincing Scotland.

They managed to convince enough to get 22.4% of the vote

fasternotfatter - Member
Because Scots can't handle being the little inconsequential bit at the top of the UK?

Selfishness.

With the current price of oil, you can't afford independence and have no cards to play.

That's the usual bollocks that gets proposed. The economy, regardless of what state it is in is not an excuse.

Since the Scottish independence movement started lots of little countries with much poorer economies and resources have become independent and thrived.

None have asked to come back under the empire's umbrella. Not even tiny Singapore.

I wonder what characteristic of Scots our overlords have identified that makes us unable to handle independence? What racial inferiority do we possess?

None have asked to come back under the empire's umbrella. Not even tiny [b]Singapore[/b].

But I think if the union is to stay together it's a must for it to happen, as an independent Labour party is the only thing that will take support away from the SNP en masse

I totally agree with this. I think the Conservatives could do with similar. In fact it would be better for all the UK if the parties allowed a bit more freedom within them. I guess the problem for all parties is that do this is keeping the media at bay.

On the opposite as the SNP get bigger they'll have the opposite problem of disagreement on direction, be interesting how they handle it. Although it will be a bit easier for them than the big parties.

Ernie, by default I ment through independence.

Singapore v Scotland. I don't see Scotland being situated on the worlds busiest shipping route and an ideal place for a world class port. Nor do I see it surrounded by economically ineffective nations / populations thus giving it an obvious competitive advantage.

But can you imagine how scarey an electorally successful independent Scottish Labour Party which grabs the left-wing mantle from the SNP would be for the "blairite" political elite in London?

As @faster said Scotland have no cards to play, even with 100% of the MPs that doesn't given them any leverage unless they are in a coalition government at Westminster. There will be no independent Scotland in my lifetime (another 30+ years I hope 🙂 ). The referendum was a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Dragon. The is one issue with the parties becoming independent. In that it could be view as them never truely being involved I'm government again.

Jambayala, you seem to be under the impression that Westminster doesn't believe I'm democracy. Independence may never happen but it'll not be held against it's will for any great length of time.

It's interesting that I have more confidence in westminster than you there! 😆

It always perplexes me why you keep trying to put us down as having no power over our own destiny, this is not true.

I am not trying to put anyone down, simply explaining the reality (as I see it if people want a caveat). Of course we live in a democracy but SNP have 50 odd seats out of the 650. You can have majority at Holyrood and control the things that have been devolved. Independence isn't one of them. You cannot become independent without a unilateral declaration other than with Westminster approval as Cameron granted you prior to the referendum. It's my view that won't happen again. It doesn't matter whether you have 100% of the Holyrood and Scottish Westminster seats. The SNP needs to form a coalition to have power and it's ruled out the Tories (who ironically gave it he referendum) and has attacked Labour.

Also remember that UKIP is in second place in may constituencies in the North, the Labour party would be well advised to look at the lessons in Scotland and how an apparently distant threat can suddenly overwhelm them.

Makes a good headline eh - UKIP came second in 120 seats, "many" in the North ?

However there were a lot [i]more[/i] in the South, in fact most were :

[img] [/img]

Notice how much of those Southern areas where UKIP came second is actually true Tory blue :

[img] [/img]

Two thirds of the seats where UKIP came second were [u]NOT[/u] Labour seats, they were overwhelmingly Tory seats.

So anyway, what lessons do you want Labour to learn from Scotland ?

That they need to have a "Blairite" leader and Tory-lite agenda to win an election - is that the lesson they need to learn from Scotland ?

jambalaya - Member
I am not trying to put anyone down, simply explaining the reality (as I see it if people want a caveat). Of course we live in a democracy but SNP have 50 odd seats out of the 650. You can have majority at Holyrood and control the things that have been devolved. Independence isn't one of them. You cannot become independent without a unilateral declaration other than with Westminster approval as Cameron granted you prior to the referendum. It's my view that won't happen again. It doesn't matter whether you have 100% of the Holyrood and Scottish Westminster seats. The SNP needs to form a coalition to have power and it's ruled out the Tories (who ironically gave it he referendum) and has attacked Labour.

Scotland is defined as a nation, yes we are part of the UK, but we are also defined as a separate nation, which is a crucial distinction.

Interesting graphic earnie, any stats on which who won the seats? labour or tories, looks more outside the cities, so I'd guess tory?

That they need to have a "Blairite" leader and Tory-lite agenda to win an election - is that the lesson they need to learn from Scotland ?

Empire, lots of countries 1000's of miles from the UK versus a place just up the road ? It's my view the independence debate will dissapear. No further referendum for 30 years and once the oil is going the economics of independence will be so far from workable it will be a dead issue.

labour or tories, looks more outside the cities, so I'd guess tory?

UKIP came second in 120 seats, 44 of those where Labour held

[url= http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/20-seats-lowest-turnout-show-labour-voters-drifting-ukip-or-not-voting-all ]New Statesman[/url]

[i]Hunt acknowledges the threat Ukip, which came second with 22.7 per cent in his seat, poses to Labour. “In too many parts of the north of England and the Midlands, the electoral challenge we faced was from Ukip – selling an anti-metropolitan message about political elites uninterested in those ‘left behind’,” he wrote on Monday. “These were historically Labour areas who just simply felt that Labour was no longer for them.” Ed Balls, who lost by 400 votes in Morley and Outwood, where Ukip picked up 8,000 votes, was one Labour casualty of Ukip’s surge.[/i]

Cheers.

bearGrease - Member
"None have asked to come back under the empire's umbrella. Not even tiny Singapore."

Which was built by a benign but authoritarian dictator. Are you suggesting that's a good model for Scotland to follow? It feels like the koolaid drinkers believe so.

It's not how it's run that's the point, it's that it has managed its independence and doesn't want to come back.

How about Ireland, Kenya, Tanzania, India, etc etc? You can list lots of things "wrong" with them. There are some basket cases amongst the independent nations, but none want back.

So I'll repeat the question:

what characteristic of Scots our overlords have identified that makes us unable to handle independence? What racial inferiority do we possess?

It doesn't have to be a racial inferiority. A shared land border and common culture could make it much [i]less attractive[/i] to be self-governing. All of your other examples (possibly excepting Ireland) exist far away from Englands borders and share more in common with their geographical neighbours.

scotroutes - Member
It doesn't have to be a racial inferiority. A shared land border and common culture could make it much less attractive to be self-governing. All of your other examples (possibly excepting Ireland) exist far away from Englands borders and share more in common with their geographical neighbours.

Do the portuguese yearn to be under spanish rule? Does Slovakia wish to join the Czech Republic?

Cameron in Edinburgh meeting Nicola Sturgeon today.

Interesting graphic earnie, any stats on which who won the seats? labour or tories, looks more outside the cities, so I'd guess tory?

Of the 120 seats that UKIP came second 44 were Labour seats. I don't know about the other 76 seats but bearing in mind that the LibDems hardly won any seats I think it's fair to assume that they were almost all Tory.

EDIT : I've just realised that jambalaya had already answered the question. This is what happens when you don't bother reading jambalaya's posts 🙂

scotroutes - Member
It doesn't have to be a racial inferiority....

Are you sure? I just wondered if our wise and kind overlords were saving us from ourselves and were being too polite to tell us the real reason. 🙂

what characteristic of Scots our overlords have identified that makes us unable to handle independence? What racial inferiority do we possess?

Your question reveals more about the chip on your shoulder than your knowledge of history.

What was the moment they transformed from the Tartan Tories into a left wing party?

Good grief, they haven't been Tartan Tories for more than a generation, back when Labour were a left wing party.

I think people trying to define what the SNP are, are onto plumbs at the moment. It's not settled, they have supporters, members and MPs from all walks of life. What they will ultimately becomes is undecided due to the rapid rise in all of the above imo.

I think that's what the attractiveness is to alot of people to be honest, the chance to define the party.

I've just realised that jambalaya had already answered the question. This is what happens when you don't bother reading jambalaya's posts

Sensible statement from Cameron after the meeting today. I am quite happy for Cameron to offer Scots some more powers as I am confident he will only do that if its beneficial for the rest of the UK and not least the English Votes for English laws. Implementing Smith first and then letting SNP see what they can do with it, plenty of opportunity to kick the can down the road with "lets wait and see, lets give it a reasonable amount of time to look at the impact ..." Then it will be approaching GE2020 and that will be the rationale to put it on hold till after.

[i]What we agreed was, first of all let’s implement Smith, let’s make sure it really is Smith. We are going to look again at welfare and make sure the clauses reflect what that agreement was.
But we haven’t yet implemented Calman, let alone implemented Smith. We haven’t yet got the tax powers that come in in April 2016, so I think let’s implement that so people can see the massive power on taxation and spending that the Scottish Parliament will have.
If the First Minister wants to send some proposals for me to look at I am very happy to examine proposals. There is going to be a debate, of course there will be a debate. I don't rule out making other changes if sensible suggestions are made.”[/i]

EDIT: Cameron. Full fiscal autonomy means the end of Barnet formula and the wealth transfer to Scotland - makes sense to me.

[i]I think the option of full fiscal autonomy is not a good option for Scotland inside the United Kingdom. I think it would land Scottish taxpayers with £7 billion of extra taxes and Scottish taxpayers with £7 billion of extra costs. I believe in the solidarity that is at the heart of our United Kingdom, so it is an honest disagreement between the First Minister and me about this. We will deliver a stronger Scottish Parliament, be in no doubt about.[/i]

What was the moment they transformed from the Tartan Tories into a left wing party?

Probably the moment the Labour Party lurched to the right and started to ape the Tories. The SNP didn't have to do anything really.

.

What a nice fellow you are

I think you'll find scotroutes that konabunny was taking the piss. IIRC knonabuny is part-Scottish.

I think there was suppose to be some sort of joke there, too subtle for my simple brain to fully understand, along the lines of "have you stopped beating up your wife - just answer yes or no"

bearGrease - Member
Six Prime Minister represented Scottish Constituencies Whilst Prime Minister:
William Gladstone
Henry Campbell Bannerman
Herbert Henry Asquith
Andrew Bonar Law
Sir Alec Douglas-Home
And of course Gordon Brown
Other PMs have been born in Scotland including Tony Blair.
Your question reveals more about the chip on your shoulder than your knowledge of history.

And not one of them would have got into that position if they were independence advocates. You don't get to be PM of the UK by advocating its breakup, although some were keen on Irish Home Rule.

What chip? The democracy one? I just believe that self determination would work better for Scotland.

ernie_lynch - Member
....IIRC knonabuny is part-Scottish.

Jim Murphy is Scottish too.

Unfortunately... 🙂

epicyclo - Member

What chip? The democracy one? I just believe that self determination would work better for Scotland.

The overloads patter isn't a good look.

epicyclo - Member
What chip? The democracy one?

bearGrease - Member
epicyclo - Member
What chip? The democracy one?
No, the other one. As Joseph pointed out accusing those South of the border to be wholly responsible for the problems of Scotland makes you look like a shining wit (as per Spooner).

Where did I do that?

A UK govt has to have policies that suits the majority of its electorate. That leads to the needs of minorities being ignored or placed to one side.

In the case of Scotland independence (or home rule) removes that problem for us.

Hopefully my home boy DC tells jimmy crankie to get back to hobbiton and doesn't allow her any more power than was outlined in Devo max, that and anything the SNP want to discuss in Westminster is immediately shut down! It's about time these racists stopped having any influence over the UK!

epicyclo - Member
In the case of Scotland independence (or home rule) removes that problem for us.

Where did I do that?

I wonder what characteristic of Scots our overlords have identified that makes us unable to handle independence? What racial inferiority do we possess?

So I'll repeat the question:

what characteristic of Scots our overlords have identified that makes us unable to handle independence? What racial inferiority do we possess?

I just wondered if our wise and kind overlords were saving us from ourselves and were being too polite to tell us the real reason

We'd established that you're a shining wit and now you've confirmed you're a self delusional shining wit.

bearGrease - Member
We'd established that you're a shining wit and now you've confirmed you're a self delusional shining wit.

Unionist, eh?

I see that my post has been deleted, which I assume means it wasn't quite the brilliant piece of writing I thought it was. I apologise to all.

The point I was (evidently poorly) making was that the question "what kind of racial inferiority is it that means Scots are unable to handle independence?" is like the question "when did you stop beating your wife?" - answering either of them means accepting their entirely false premise. (The second question is well known as an example of this rhetorical device).

What was the moment they transformed from the Tartan Tories into a left wing party?
Good grief, they haven't been Tartan Tories for more than a generation, back when Labour were a left wing party.

Hmm. The thing is, with the Labour Party you can very clearly pinpoint the moment at which it shifted from being a moderate left wing party to being a centrist party: the rise of Blair (with Smith paving the way), the abolition of Clause 4 and the launch of the New Labour project. When was that moment for the SNP? My impression is that that moment never occurred for the SNP because they have never shifted to the left.

It's striking that none of the people claiming the SNP is a left wing party are able to:

- identify distinctively left wing policies
- identify when the SNP has described itself as left wing
- reconcile the left wing nature of the SNP with its close relationship with Souter, Gloag and Murdoch
- explain why it is that the English and Welsh electorate should have lurched to the right and voted for a right wing government, but the Scottish electorate should have lurched to the left and voted for a left wing party. It's unprecedented for the Scotch to vote in a radically different way from the English when you compare the social profile of the constituencies involved
- resist claiming that the SNP's critics are Unionist/Tory stooges...

epicyclo - Member
Unionist, eh?

Your powers of deduction are as remarkable as your predilection for blaming the country's ills on mythical "overlords".

Hopefully my home boy DC tells jimmy crankie to get back to hobbiton and doesn't allow her any more power than was outlined in Devo max, that and anything the SNP want to discuss in Westminster is immediately shut down! It's about time these racists stopped having any influence over the UK!

[img] [/img]
A fully trained weapons grade idiot at that.

bearGrease - Member
epicyclo - Member
Unionist, eh?

Einstein, eh?
Your powers of deduction are as remarkable as your predilection for blaming the country's ills on mythical "overlords".

If you could reduce them to mythical status I would honour your name forever, although I am not sure to what vile purpose you would grease a bear, but in the meantime, seeing as you have a predilection for trading insults and I have not yet given one in return:

May the bowels of one thousand flying camels empty upon your head and bring peace to your troubled soul.

Konabunny I don't think anyone is claiming the SNP is a socialist party, it certainly originally set out to be a home for everyone in favour of independence, but has over a period of about 50 years since publication of a booklet "SNP and You" in the 60s shifted leftwards and is imo a social democratic party. You can check the snp entry on wiki.
I also don't think the Scottish people have

lurched to the left

A fully trained weapons grade idiot at that.

I was just assuming he was a blatantly obvious troll.

Either that, or he really is a gangster and David Cameron is his homeboy, whatever that means.

gordimhor - spot on. My politics haven't changed at all, it's the Labour party that's shifted to the right and the SNP have taken their place.

All this left-right distinction - I really can't be bothered working out where on some linear scale each party's policies put it. I don't want Trident. I want free University education and no commercial involvement in the NHS. I don't like the demonisation of immigrants and asylum seekers. If that makes me left-wing then fine, it also means I agree with the SNP and not Labour.

I don't want Trident. I want free University education and no commercial involvement in the NHS. I don't like the demonisation of immigrants and asylum seekers.

* Brian Souter would not approve of this term.

Don't you think that makes you, Ann Gloag, Brian Souter and Rupert Murdoch strange bedfellows*, then?

I'm a vegetarian. Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore I have a lot on common with Hitler.

That's a pretty poor analogy (and a deliberately bad one designed so you can avoid answering the question, I think).

Don't you think that makes you, Ann Gloag, Brian Souter and Rupert Murdoch strange bedfellows*, then?

I have no idea of the reasons that any of those three have for claiming, or otherwise, to support the SNP. I am also unconcerned by it as it does not change my reasons for being a member of the SNP. I joined because I like their policies, not because of their fans. They are social democrats - that's a good place from which to do politics in my view.

If SNP can establish branches in the south then I think Labour will be insignificant as opposition party for a long long time. SNP can easily replace Labour as opposition party if they get it right.

Freeedddooommm! 😆