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When I said that to claim there is only our one periodic table in the entire universe seemed to me to be arrogant, it wasn't because I had a different theory that I thought was superior.. I was simply pondering the possibility of there being more out there to be discovered..
Can I pick this point up? [u]Not[/u] to dismiss you, but just to discuss it? Pub-stylee.
It is [i]possible[/i] that [i]somewhere[/i] in the vast universe, there are (some exotic equivalent of) chemical elements that are not made of atoms.
It is even [i]possible[/i] as you suggested earlier, that our solar system (or galaxy) is a bit unusual with all this atom stuff, and actually distant stars are made of these undiscovered non-atom elements which for some reason produce an emission spectrum that exactly matches our atom-based elements.
If quantum physics teaches us anything it's that we should expect counter-intuitive weirdness from the universe.
But... currently we have absolutely no reason to suspect that to be the case (other than random wonderings). The current atomic element model we have holds for everything we can test here, including everything we can observe from deep space, and it has allowed us to accurately predict and then create "new" elements that didn't previously exist on Earth.
So yes, claiming our periodic table is the only one we'd ever need to describe elements in the universe is perhaps a bold claim, but [i]so far[/i], justified.
ok.. I accept that.. couldn't see the woods for the trees earlier on.. 😳
I'm more than ready to turn a corner in this discussion.. and you've mentioned the observable universe a few times..
Now I don't even watch science docs on TV so excuse me if I get this muddled up..
What we can observe appears to be a doughnut shape..? Which is expanding or contracting or both.. I'm going to guess and say the reason that we see a doughnut shape could be a number of different things..
poor visibility with an unknown cause (dark matter etc..?)
wierd shaped universe
something else
ok
do we have any idea what is [i]beyond[/i] the observable universe..?
more universe..?
the dungeon dimensions..?
Dark Matter and/or other recent discoveries..?
the edge of the vacuum flask..?
chocolate butter cream..?
the final episode of Eastenders..?
god only knows..?
What we can observe appears to be a doughnut shape..?
IIRC, there was one theory that the universe might have a torus (doughnut) shape. I don't recall it being much more than a theory though.
The [i]observable[/i] universe is a sphere, because from a (relatively) single observation point we can observe as far in all directions. That has no bearing on the shape of the universe though, just how much of it we can see.
I think.
do we have any idea what is beyond the observable universe..?
We have [i]ideas,[/i] sure. I posted figures earlier, but our best guess is that the whole universe is 1000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times bigger than the bit we can see.
It's even more fun that that.
"Observable Universe" really means two things:
There is the amount of universe we can observe/measure/detect from Earth with our current technology (I think I overstated this earlier: a bit of googling suggests that the furthest we have "seen" is about 30 billion light years).
But the true scientific meaning is the amount of the universe we could possibly "see" even if we had the best detectors that could ever be built because those galaxies are so far away that the light from them hasn't reached us yet and, due to the expansion of the universe, it never will. We will never see them from here.
That distance is reckoned to be around 46 billion light years from Earth.
do we have any idea what is beyond the observable universe..?
Ideas yes. Theories yes. "More universe" seems like the most likely.
But until someone volunteers to go a few billion light years away from us to find out, nothing is [i]absolutely[/i] certain. That would be arrogant 😉
Bear in mind though that this limit is just an arbitrary [i]"how far we can see from our planet"[/i]. There is nothing cosmologically [i]special[/i] about it - so no real reason to suspect that it's suddenly all marshmallows from 46.1 billion light years onwards.
Yunki this is for you:
I did a bit a wild camping at Easter on a beach on Islay, needless to say sand got everywhere. As I was walking back to the car and brushing sand off all my gear and clothes the thought "Each grain a star" entered my head. Most of us will have have heard that there are roughly a similar number of stars in the universe as there are grains of sand on all the beaches in the world. That beach on Islay was equivalent to our galaxy.From the perspective of an individual grain of sand it was vast (for all practical purposes at that scale it was infinite). Thinking about the universe in similar terms (we aren't even a grain of sand) and it just becomes impossible to imagine there isn't other life out there.
I want to return to my beach anaology and how it demonstrates a little about our understanding of the universe. So imagine you are a super smart microscopic person living on a grain of sand on a beach. You are so small that the grain of sand is on the scale of a planet to you.
But as I said you are super smart so you you have already worked out how some of the physical laws work on you grain of sand like gravity etc. From your grain of sand you can see lots of other grains of sand that look pretty similar to the one you live on so you assume quite naturally that the laws that work on your grain of sand are most likely the same on the others.
One day you invent a telescope and you peer across the entire beach and see that everywhere its just more grains of sand. "Wow!" you think "this beach is huge" but you realise its all just grains of sand, everywhere as far as your telescope can see. So you conclude that the physical laws that you have worked out are universal as the "universe" looks pretty much identical in every direction.
This is called the Copernican principle or the principle of mediocrity. Its not because science lacks imagination its a fundamental part of how physical laws are applied
One
Then the tide comes in and really confuses you. 😀
That analogy fails/succeeds because it illustrates exactly what yunki is talking about. The grain of sand can see billions of other grains of sands, but it can't see far enough to see the grass, road, sky, sea, etc.
Most of us will have have heard that there are roughly a similar number of stars in the universe as there are grains of sand on all the beaches in the world.
Here's some working to add some figures to that:
http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/~gmackie/billions.html
Then the tide comes in and really confuses you.
Yeah it did occur to me that someone might ask "what about the sea". A desert would probably work better.
But I though what the hell. It was a genuine thought I had that was worth sharing. Is amazing how waking up hungover on a beach brings out the philosopher in you!
but it can't see far enough to see the grass, road, sky, sea, etc.
Or Susan Boyle out for a stroll and taking some sea air on the advice of her physician.. Or the impending confusion as she bends to sit on the sand, her ill fitting bikini moving to the side just enough to allow a couple of tablespoons (one galaxy..?) to get lodged within the humid crevices beneath..
yes I think there are Unidentified flying objects in the sky that may be flying. That's that question answered then. Change question. or have I turned up late for something not that interesting anyway?
GrahamS for [s]world[/s] Universe leader. Other than that, no. 😀
FWIW though, I spent my entire teenage years soaking up everything on the subject; from dime-store novels, stolen from guest houses, to scientific treaties which I still can't pretend to understand.
wow yunki, that's pretty creative and interesting! That could be a nice tedious watercolour if you had the talent to paint it. must check Beryl Cool hasnt usurped your potential style of recording ordinary people having a laugh 😉
But maaaaa-aaaan, the whole universe could be under your fingernail. Innit.
but the fact it may not be, and we are here doing our thing alone, may as well make the best of what we are good at eh! make it better! make stuff, inform art!