It’s comparable to figures in Germany and the US when using the Pfizer Vaccine
The American VAERS system? Yeah that also contains unconfirmed data.
American figures suggest 3 up to July out if 339m vaccines.
I am not offering any advice.
The virus is now endemic. We have to live with it.
So in after posting that you're not offering advice, you go and offer advice.
Personally the only people I know who have suffered severe consequences from the pandemic, are not directly linked to the virus.
Before I pick up my second forum ban in the years that I've been here let me help you. In the last two years I'm minus two relatives, one a parent who died from covid. I know they did from covid because I saw the death certificates and had a fifteen minute minute phone call with my mum (who has gasping for breath at the time) just before she died from covid.
I've a number of colleagues who suffered the effects of long covid. Another otherwise fit and healthy guy in his thirties spent Spring 2021 in an induced coma, because of covid.
I'm going to step away now, before I type something that I might regret later. Bye.
So sorry to hear that, PJM. 🙁
And what edifice is that ?
No…..wait….dont tell me you think im anti vax…. 😯 😯 ….Im pro vax.
So you keep saying, even though I don't THINK anyone has accused you of being anti-vax. Be that as it may, the arguments that you're presenting are anti-vax arguments.
Have you, like the 90% of other people in the UK, been offered and taken a vaccine?
Yes? Well done. Covid isn't going to kill you.
Why, for christs sake, are you now bothered about anti-vaxxers? *You're fine* - they're now largely the ones dying of it.
This whole thing is about wanting to kick people you don't like. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you've had the vaccine then step back - you're as safe as can be.
If you’ve had the vaccine then step back – you’re as safe as can be.
True. So long as you don't know any other vulnerable people who aren't strong enough to have the vaccine and are at high risk of serious harm or death if they get infected, anyway. But sure, you're alright. Probably.
They're going to look back on this period of history as the Beaker Generation. It's when everyone stood there going "me me me me..."
In a few years maybe more all you sheeple will laugh/cry/get angry over the powers that had been. Pushing vaccine jabs for a mild flu like virus !!
Sociopath.
If you’ve had the vaccine then step back – you’re as safe as can be.
True. But if the anti-vaxxers are spreading misinformation, lies and basically crazy theories that can be potentially dangerous do you mind if we challenge them. Saying no thanks I don’t want the vaccine is fine. Trying to shut down a vaccination centre, handing out leaflets at schools saying the vaccine will kill school kids and claiming that they make you magnetic isn’t.
If you’ve had the vaccine then step back – you’re as safe as can be.
Er... I've personally always felt safe. I did before we had the vaccines. How about you?
*You’re fine*
And always have been, personally. How about you?
Now ask/think about our families, friends, work colleagues, bus/train staff, shop workers, doctors, teachers... and their families, friends, work colleagues, bus/train staff, shop workers, doctors, teachers... and their... etc, etc. It's all a chain.
Why, for christs sake, are you now bothered about anti-vaxxers? *You’re fine* – they’re now largely the ones dying of it.
Indeed. Darwinism in action. Let the gene pool get on with cleansing itself
In a few years maybe more all you sheeple will laugh/cry/get angry over the powers that had been. Pushing vaccine jabs for a mild flu like virus !!
Can you imagine being on the same side of this scientific divide as Laurence Fox, Right Said Fred and Julia Hartley-Brewer? The mind boggles.
Yep, I'm fine. Fully jabbed and boosted. Thanks 🙂
I deal daily with colleagues from other countries who haven't been so fortunate to have our vaccination programme.
"Our families, friends, work colleagues, bus/train staff, shop workers, doctors, teachers… and their families, friends, work colleagues, bus/train staff, shop workers, doctors, teachers… and their… etc, etc" , have all been offered jabs and boosters and if they've taken them up they're as safe as can be too.
Anti-vaxxers are the people at risk now - and they no longer pose much of an enhanced risk to the rest of us - because we are vaccinated.
This is fine. Leave them to their decision - and start handing out our vaccines to the people in other countries who want the vaccines but can't get them.
Meanwhile, bask in the knowledge that you've done the best you can.
In a few years maybe more all you sheeple will laugh/cry/get angry over the powers that had been. Pushing vaccine jabs for a mild flu like virus !!
Arsehole.
Anti-vaxxers are the people at risk now – and they no longer pose much of an enhanced risk to the rest of us – because we are vaccinated.
If only that were true. Yes, the unvaccinated are a lot of the people at risk, but they aren't all "anti-vaxxers", many can't be vaccinated. There are better and better treatments available for those that can't be vaccinated, but they are absolutely at greater risk thanks to people who think that vaccination is for the "sheeple".
and start handing out pur vaccines to the people in other countries who want the vaccines but can’t get them
I've been banging on about this in the thread that this is so obviously just a duplicate of. But it's not either or. Other countries can produce plenty of vaccine stock if countries like the UK didn't stand in the way of them doing so. Even the USA is behind patent waivers now... but not the UK (or Germany). We need much more vaccine production world-wide. We need to stop standing in the way of that.
etc, etc” , have all been offered jabs and boosters
All of them?
Have they?
Are you sure?
You don't know of anyone who is immunocompromised, would dearly love the vaccination but cannot have it?
Can you imagine being on the same side of this scientific divide as Laurence Fox, Right Said Fred and Julia Hartley-Brewer? The mind boggles.
Are that other guy the heavy metal singer that was in the Rocky Horror picture show?
Anti-vaxxers are the people at risk now – and they no longer pose much of an enhanced risk to the rest of us – because we are vaccinated.
They aren't the only ones at risk, there are still the 4.7million clinically vulnerable, like my wife. She's had the vaccine (triple dose, with a fourth due in the spring), but has very very low antibody count so if she caught covid she'd most likely be hospitalised. We both also have a job where we see members of the public every day, key works and high risk. She stopped shielding last summer but had done reduced hours at work.
I respect anti vaxers for their decision, it's up to them what they do, I disagree with it completely though and generally will try to engage in debate when challenged with this choice.
Where I completely disagree is the "sheeple" bolx they spout. Like I said to an anti Vaxer friend at the start 2021 - vaccination only needs the many not the few, but how how many generally determines the speed we get this all over and done with.
The anti Vax brigade have never seemed to come up with an alternative to stop the pandemic with the minimum number of deaths.
We need much more vaccine production world-wide.
This x1000. We need local manufacture where possible so that poorer countries don't automatically shoved to the back of the queue.
In a few years maybe more all you sheeple will laugh/cry/get angry over the powers that had been. Pushing vaccine jabs for a mild flu like virus !!
To post this 3 posts after another poster told you his mum died from covid marks you out as an arsehole of the highest calibre
As for sheeple? I’d say the people that are blindly following in blissful ignorance are the anti vaxxers whom are so lacking in critical thinking and intelligence they listen to the likes of the lady Pondo posted a few pages back
As for sheeple? I’d say the people that are blindly following in blissful ignorance are the anti vaxxers whom are so lacking in critical thinking and intelligence they listen to the likes of the lady Pondo posted a few pages back
Most of what I was going to say in reply has been said, but yes, there's a delicious irony that people who blindly follow blatant unscientific nonsense think the rest of us are the "sheeple"
Baa!
Anti-vaxxers are the people at risk now – and they no longer pose much of an enhanced risk to the rest of us – because we are vaccinated.
Not from Covid, no. But as a constant drag on the health service, they do. 6 hours was how long a cyclist with a broken leg had to wait in Bristol after he was knocked off his bike not a miles from the Hospital. They have to respond immediately to those with breathing difficulties.
The kind of person who carries on talking 'at you' whilst you're literally walking away from them, kinda says it all really 🙂
I've met a few of those, lol!
The anti Vax brigade have never seemed to come up with an alternative to stop the pandemic with the minimum number of deaths.
I've no idea how representative she is but the one who almost certainly infected us doesn't believe it's real. We were fatigued, by comparison she and her son were both bedridden for days and she was still going "it's not Covid, it's just the lurgy, I haven't had a bug for a while so I was about due one."
Should've had your $%^&ing Lurgy Vaccine then you dopy mare.
We have a thing called vital interest...
I’ve no idea how representative she is but the one who almost certainly infected us doesn’t believe it’s real.
It's batshit crazy - like the woman in that Tweet I linked to, convinced that she knew better than the doctors about her mate Dave, "thinks" it was pneumonia and rails against the NHS because they wouldn't supply him oxygen. She killed him, her and her kind, as surely as if they put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger.
I don’t know about Covid but threads like this are seriously bad for my blood pressure! 😡
She killed him, her and her kind, as surely as if they put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger.
100% she did
I have a fair amount of sympathy for the people that get sucked into this. I’m going to go out on a limb and say if you are in hospital with covid and the doctors are telling you to ‘take the drugs or you’ll die’, and you still choose to listen to the advice of a someone with zero medical knowledge off the internet, you probably aren’t the sharpest tool in the shed
In most other walks of life, If i coerced someone similarly vulnerable to do something evidently detrimental to their own health, there would Be consequences. These xxxxers do it with impunity however. It’s disgusting.
The anti Vax brigade have never seemed to come up with an alternative to stop the pandemic with the minimum number of deaths.
I'm not an anti vaxxer (but I am adamant it should be a free choice) but this argument, of minimising covid deaths, is where the problems start. Sure the over 75s and those with severe co-morbidity factors are hugely at risk and it's right that society take some collective action to reduce that risk. But the idea that we have to minismise the number of deaths from covid is deeply problematic. How many would you be comfortable with; what is a reasonable minimum?
Life is the biggest co-morbidity factor period and tragic as it is that people die, it is rather innevitable and happens 600,000 times a year in the UK alone from a whole host of things including flu and at all ages. Only the novel nature of the virus and your own persional tendency to feel neurotic and anxious about risk are differentiating factors in the overal attitude we see in response to this situation.
I don't know anyone who died from Covid, which of course is not to say that a good many people did (75% of them were over 75 years old btw and 95% were over 60, so age is overwhelmingly the biggest factor in terms of the risk) but I do know five people under the age of 50 who died from cancer in the last five years (all leaving behind very young families) and I know a great many poeople who died from dementia who were older, my father included.
Risk is an entirely personally perceived construct and my comfort with it will be different to everyone else's; in this debate that different perception of risk (a factor of your neuroticism) is the only realy variable you should be discussing.
but I do know five people under the age of 50 who died from cancer in the last five years
Tragic though that is, if the hospitals continue to be rammed full of sickly unvaccinated covid patients, whom if vaccinated wouldn’t be there, it’s only going to mean more people die needlessly of other diseases
Risk is an entirely personally perceived construct and my comfort with it will be different to everyone else’s; in this debate that different perception of risk (a factor of your neuroticism) is the only realy variable you should be discussing.
A valid point - we can't protect all life indefinitely - though this issue more is around how you feel about the risk of passing it on to someone else vulnerable, which doesn't exist with cancer or dementia. Or inciting people with deliberately false information to take that risk, knowingly or otherwise.
and if the figures last year were correct and those dying of Covid still had 10 years life left, on average, working, spending, paying taxes, what is the economic cost to their deaths
in this debate that different perception of risk (a factor of your neuroticism) is the only realy variable you should be discussing
Well, my perception is the risk to me personally of dying from this virus was always as close to zero that I have entirely ignored it from day one. And the statistics since back that up. What you are talking about, for most of us, is how we "perceive" the risk to others. And a lot of that comes from how we weigh up the evidence and advice out there, and importantly, what sources we trust and who we listen to.
age is overwhelmingly the biggest factor in terms of the risk
And that applies to most things the NHS is dealing with, every day, every year. When it comes to the hard end of healthcare, it's nearly always the older generation we are talking about helping and saving.
@Kelvin / @Cougar
"Yes, the unvaccinated are a lot of the people at risk, but they aren’t all “anti-vaxxers”, many can’t be vaccinated"
"You don’t know of anyone who is immunocompromised, would dearly love the vaccination but cannot have it?"
There are not a lot of people who physically *cannot* take the vaccine in the UK. The only group not recommended is people with known allergies to the The amount of people with primary immunocompromisation is very small - but there are people who are on immunosuppressents (and I do personally know some of them) who will remain at slightly higher risk - even post vaccination.
Now the bit you're not going to like:
These people aren't just immunocompromised with covid. They're immunocompromised for *every* disease. It's a shit hand that life has dealt them, indeed.
However, you cannot continue to lock down the entire country because of a very small percentage (and it is indeed a very small percentage) of people who unfortunately have lifelong issues.
The best outcome for them was always going to be 90% vaccination rates for eligable people (and we've got it) and then they get to continue on their daily lives not just being careful about covid - but being careful about every disease they have for their lives.
We will always be able to point at some people and go "what about them"?? But we've locked down on and off for two years now, we've vaccinated huge swathes of our society - and need to focus on doing the rest for the rest of the planet.
There's no moral justification for keeping holding back the lives of the vast majority of people any more - when there's little way of improving our situation without doing real harm. And by real harm I mean causing people to lose their job because you're forcing them to act in the way you want them to - removing their bodily autonomy and harming the people who depend on them.
There's no perfect solution. But we're at the point we're now at. And that's the best we could realistically hope for tbh.
No, you’re an apologist. You’re doggedly making excuses for people being wilfully obtuse and presenting the same baseless arguments over and over.
You (ironically) said something in capitals a couple of pages back about people being scared. So, sure, they’re scared, but it’s a fear born from ignorance. So do we try to reassure them or do we shrug and go “sure, freedom of choice”?
Yet again youre making up the narrative.
I say take the vaccine, I urge everyone to take the vaccine, but My standpoint is about freedom of choice, and not just in this current issue, but with everything that comes after.
You should be on a Simon Pegg movie
FOR THE GREATER GOOD.FOR THE GREATER GOOD FOR THE GREATER GOOD
Same as directed at Tom Howard.
No I say take the vaccine, I urge them to take the vaccine, as it increases the chance of life.
But if you dont, then that should be your choice
6 hours was how long a cyclist with a broken leg had to wait in Bristol after he was knocked off his bike not a miles from the Hospital.
Well how selfish is that individual ?, indulging in a dangerous sport, knowing full well the hospitals are packed. Yet carries on blindly. And no its not like going for a spin around the streets on your bicycle, its indulging a dangerous hobby, one that claims many victims each year. The board is full of sympathetic words
Yes it is his choice.his RIGHT to take the risk and possible cause issues for himself and the hospitals and the paramedics trying to reach him.
"Actions has consequences" Remember those words ?
It used to be the good of the many outweighed the good of the few, but here on this thread, and in the question of long held and fought for freedoms of choice, but be forsaken with the good of the few outweighs the good of the meany, and not just for today and this pandemic, but for all time.
Remember your standpoint. So no backsliding later on.
Pleas4e someone update the Meat Load thread. Apparently now he's a selfish monster.
Since when has linking something with fascism ever meant that it should be encouraged?
Your message has been that the government encouraging folk to get the vaccine, as you have, is tyranny. You don't think that, by association, someone might be put off?
The first legal challenge for compulsory covid vaccines at work has been concluded.
https://twitter.com/healthreglawyer/status/1485682222313222146?s=21
However, you cannot continue to lock down the entire country because of a very small percentage (and it is indeed a very small percentage) of people who unfortunately have lifelong issues.
Which country are you talking about? The one I live in has very few restrictions right now, never mind a "lock down"... thanks to people getting vaccinated (and wearing masks in indoor public places and a few other measures... and, yes, the characteristics of the latest successful variant). As for the "people who unfortunately have lifelong issues", they are, in my opinion, worth weighing up when someone is considering the benefits of vaccination, and the increase in risk "to others" that they are choosing if deciding vaccination "isn't for them".
Interesting Drac. I am suprised but there you go
@dyna-ti I have sympathy for your position but it might be time to wipe your brow and have a bit of a sit-down.
Ultimately, personal freedoms have limits, don't they? Surely they have to?
There’s no moral justification for keeping holding back the lives of the vast majority of people any more – when there’s little way of improving our situation without doing real harm. And by real harm I mean causing people to lose their job because you’re forcing them to act in the way you want them to – removing their bodily autonomy and harming the people who depend on them.
By "holding back lives", do you mean showing proof of vaccination to get into large, busy venues? Because I've gotta say, I can live with that, I don't see it as a particular imposition.
By "removing bodily autonomy", do you mean asking them to take a harmless vaccination for the protection of the vulnerable people they work with or risk losing their jobs? Because that is still a choice they are free to make.
dyna ti - its all about what is proportional here. Its not a black and white either / or issue. there are many steps along the way to this
To require a vaccine to go into some public areas and private events to me is proportionate. to make it a post employment condition of employment I believe is not - but note Dracs post above
~What you are effectively say is my fit and active father who is 87 and have long standing lung conditions can never go to a concert ( a huge hobby of his - he was a regular at classical concerts prior to covid) nor can he go to a rugby match again - something he and I did regularly so that antivaxers can go.
if my father catches covid he will die. Are you seriously telling me his death or having to isolate for the rest of his life is a price worth paying so anti vaxers can do as they wish?
'Encouraging'
Yes, 'encouraging' through force. Through mandate. You will do this, and your personal feelings are secondary.And if you dont do it.... measures will be taken.
Others have been 'encouraged' throughout history.
@PJ
My condolences to your father. And I also have copd, so me getting covid might not end so well. And thank god he visus have mutated to a less harmful strain. But to what end must we forgo freedom.
My standpoint is about freedom of choice, and not just in this current issue, but with everything that comes after.
This again... People have freedom to choose whether to get vaccinated or not. People do not have freedom from the consequences of their decisions, in this as in every single decision every single one of us ever makes.
How do you struggle with this?
‘Encouraging’
Yes, ‘encouraging’ through force. Through mandate. You will do this, and your personal feelings are secondary.And if you dont do it…. measures will be taken.
FFS. You really won't get it will you?
Who is being forced?
Yes, ‘encouraging’ through force. Through mandate. You will do this, and your personal feelings are secondary.And if you dont do it…. measures will be taken.
Correction - "you can do this, you can choose not to, but the consequences are this. Take your pick".
I think the OP has done remarkably well.
7 pages in & he/she/it hasn’t been seen since page 1.
Carry on as (though you were) normal.
Interesting Drac. I am suprised but there you go
It was also before it was made a legal requirement by the government. The claimant didn’t help there case though by lying during her dismissal hearing with her employer. Their union rep must have wanted the world to swallow them up.
