People have freedom to choose whether to get vaccinated or not.
So why then are 80,000+ choosing not to be vaccinated in the NHS. Why are they risking being sacked. BEING SACKED. Apparently you're struggling with this as being a punishment.
The US Supreme Court called it a significant encroachment" on the lives of millions of workers
Again, and ok this isnt the US, but the supreme court of a country that holds freedom as dear to them as it can possibly get, according you are 'struggling with the concept'
Who is being forced?
Force by consequence. I mean ive repeated that and the reasoning behind it tom several times. so try to get it, if you disagree then fine, but do stop bleating on.
In fact the French has a special term for this. I took a look but couldnt find it. its 'something something... by measure' but i dont speak French.
Now theres a people who hold Freedom dear to them. But are at odds with several people here.
Why are they risking being sacked. BEING SACKED.
Surely it's so they don't give COVID to the patients??
So why then are 80,000+ choosing not to be vaccinated in the NHS. Why are they risking being sacked. BEING SACKED. Apparently you’re struggling with this as being a punishment.
Other jobs are available to suit their life choices.
Interesting Drac. I am surprised but there you go
If this forum had an edit button that lasted more than 15 mins you might be advised to revise someone of the nuance of what you typed in the previous thread with the addition of a good liberal scattering of IMOs. You were mighty definitive at times in some of your previous assertions about the legality.
@kelvin:"As for the “people who unfortunately have lifelong issues”, they are, in my opinion, worth weighing up when someone is considering the benefits of vaccination, and the increase in risk “to others” that they are choosing if deciding vaccination “isn’t for them”"
Totally agree. And you have to include in that calculation the removal of bodily autonomy. Permanently.
If you can justify that for this, you can justify it for a lot of things. And that's a world I really don't want to live in.
Fully vaccinated. Obeyed all the rules. Thinks anti-vaxxers are idiots on this point (and has reams of publicly available clear as day evidence to prove it). However, MUST preserve these idiot's right to freely choose.
And again...
Mandatory vaccination for certain jobs is not new. It's been a condition of employment in several industries for years.
Hepatitis and tetanus in refuse workers.
Yellow fever, malaria, etc for those in the travel industry in certain parts of the world.
No jab, no job.
Frankly I'm amazed that front line health workers are not already required to have hepatitis and tetanus jabs at least.
So why then are 80,000+ choosing not to be vaccinated in the NHS. Why are they risking being sacked. BEING SACKED. Apparently you’re struggling with this as being a punishment.
**** knows, I'm no more anti-vax than you are. It's not a punishment, it's a consequence of a decision they're making - they can seek jobs pretty much anywhere else they want, or they can get a harmless vaccination. It's freedom of choice, you see.
@tjagain - your post about your dad. I sympathise - I really do.
However if that's the case then anti-vaxxers aren't really a problem for him - the normal, vaccinated population is. We can - me and you - can, and will, spread covid. It's going to go around the world and then go around the world again. Forever.
If he's been vaccinated, that's the best he can hope for.
Your desire for more, I'm sad to say, is unrealistic. Even if we lassooed every anti-vaxxer on the planet and injected them directly in their eyes with massive dose of pfizer, on a weekly basis, and then punched them in their balls for good measure - your dad will still experience the same level of risk.
Everyones getting it. More than once. That's our new reality.
So why then are 80,000+ choosing not to be vaccinated in the NHS.
Well given the figures aren’t clear lets look at possibilities.
They’re exempt, they’re religion, they’re non patient contact, they’re due to retire or they’re just choosing not to. How many fits into each category is unclear.
However, what we do know is that’s well over 1.3m have chosen to have it.
So why then are 80,000+ choosing not to be vaccinated in the NHS. Why are they risking being sacked. BEING SACKED. Apparently you’re struggling with this as being a punishment.
Numbers aside, why are you struggling to see this as a consequence of their choices?
Weren't you deriding someone for using ALL CAPS in an argument earlier, possibly in this very thread? Or was that someone else?
your dad will still experience the same level of risk.
this shows a basic lack of understanding. Vaccinated people are less likely to get it, likely to have lower viral load if they do get thus are less infectious so anti vaxxers do increase the risk. this is basic science
Deriding someone Cougar. Who exactly ?. perhaps im(or whomever) is using it to emphasis a point.
No personal attacks here, at lease not from my end.
And If I have, I apologize, certainly not my intention to attack someone for their choice.
this shows a basic lack of understanding.
It will lessen your chances of catching it yes, and it will help considerably in negating the seriousness of the infection, but you can still catch it and you can still pass it on.
Again yes it is less likely. But the danger is still there. Those factors need to be included in talking about this part of the subject and not be so readily dismissed.
@tjagain:
"this shows a basic lack of understanding. Vaccinated people are less likely to get it, likely to have lower viral load if they do get thus are less infectious so anti vaxxers do increase the risk. this is basic science"
The risk isn't material. Your dad is going to get it anyway - likely from a fully vaccinated person.
An anti-vaxxer may give it to your dad. But at some point a vaccinated person will. There's no avoiding it. If you forcibly give anti-vaxxers the jab, your dad's still going to get it.
If you forcibly give anti-vaxxers the jab
No one is saying you should do this, especially not TJ.
your dad’s still going to get it
Likely, but not inevitable. Made slightly more likely by those not getting vaccinated, and even more likely by those persuading others to make the same choice.
to make it a post employment condition of employment I believe is not
Remember the 1974 act? It starts with the word Health, employers have to manage and minimise the risk to other employee's health. Wholly proportionate, their gaff, their rules like discussions here.
@kelvin - it was used to illustrate the point.
Even if everyone on the planet is given the vaccine, his dad's still going to get it.
The coercion being applied to some people who haven't been jabbed is NOT justified. For lots of reasons (which have already been covered) - not the least of which is: it's still going to circulate.
A world with covid is our new reality. We're not going to abolish it. We're all going to get it multiple times during our lives. Just like we do colds, flu, stomach bugs etc.
As I understand it if you receive a lower does when you are infected, then you are less ill. Is that right? So if someone meets TJ's dad (or mine) and is vaccinated they have a lesser chance of passing it on, and he has a greater chance of not being seriously ill?
But in any case chevychase, considering that you too will eventually die of something, why bother with any precautions and I'll just kill you now, that ok?
Sandwhich - needs to be proportionate. also in the act IIRC
Also the loss of so many staff will cause issues of short staffing.
Anyway - that particular bit of debate has been done to death. I have my view, others differ
No one is saying you should do this, especially not TJ.
correct - but the need to be vaccinated to enter such things as concert halls and football grounds and nightclubs seems proportionate to me. Its one group or the other than gets excluded. allow in anti vaxers you exclude the vulnerable.
his dad’s still going to get it
Probably, but not definitely. Not everyone will get this virus. And not everyone will get all variants of it. Not everyone will get a large exposure to every variant. The unvaccinated are increasing the risk to him.
your dad’s still going to get it.
I don’t think you can say that. I’m assuming his dad won’t be in the pub every weekend, he won’t be sitting in the office with coworkers. Covid will be there in the background but it won’t be as prevalent as it is now.
Of course every time tj’s dad goes to a concert there will be a risk, but vaccination reduces that risk, and the more people that are vaccinated the safer he’ll be
Sorry @Kelvin. Very soon everyone will have had it. And it's going to be circulating on planet earth forever.
And undoubtedly the unvaccinated are increasing the risk but not materially. And that non-material uplift in risk has to be balanced against the dangers of coercive vaccination - not just around covid, but for all the other things that become justifiable because of it - some of which YOU might not like.
For the un-vaccinated infection will be their pathway to immunity. A lot more of them are going to die than those who are vaccinated, but then that's their free (really stupid) choice right there.
But coercing these idiots isn't a solution to anything.
Very soon everyone will have had it.
Not true.
And it’s going to be circulating on planet earth forever.
No one is alive forever. There are many many millions of people in this country who will not get this virus before something else gets them. There are billions of people in the world who will never get any particular variant.
@tpbiker - yes. Yes I can say that. And once the un-vaccinated have had it - they're effectively vaccinated.
But I won't bother with the stats or expert opinion (that supports this view) - I'll instead regail you with anecdotal evidence 🙂
Right now I live in an isolated farm in Snowdonia. No neighbours. Neither myself nor my partner have been into an office in two years. We don't go to the pub much and I can get out on my bike and not see anyone for ages, let alone come near them. We get nearly all our shopping delivered. It's bliss. Me, the o/h and the cat that rocked up and decided he owned us.
She tested positive just after xmas. We'd been to my sisters for xmas (all of them negative, continued to test negative - so we didn't get it there). The only other place was she went into the local co-op to get some milk, once. Masked up. Uses hand gel religiously. We'd both been vaccinated and boosted a few weeks before.
The ONLY place she'd been where she could have picked it up in the timeframe was the co-op. She walked in, mask on, picked up milk, went to the self check-out and left. Back in the car. Home.
It's super transmissable. We're all going to get it multiple times. If you've had the vaccine, as I keep on asserting, there's nothing else meaningful that can be done.
I'd love the world to be different. But it isn't. So give up on trying to kick anti-vaxxers. It's not worth it.
As I understand it if you receive a lower does when you are infected, then you are less ill. Is that right? So if someone meets TJ’s dad (or mine) and is vaccinated they have a lesser chance of passing it on, and he has a greater chance of not being seriously ill?
As I understand it, the vaccine (s) reduce your chance of becoming infected and the infection clears faster but it doesn't reduce actual transmission if someone has it.
Obviously if you stop someone catching it in the first place, that's great.
I have been quite lucky with all around me catching it and never testing positive or getting ill. Is it me? The vaccine? I don't know for sure but I'd go with vaccine.
"There are many many millions of people in this country who will not get this virus before something else gets them. There are billions of people in the world who will never get any particular variant."
Sorry @Kelvin. You're living a fantasy.
Sadly 🙁
And once the un-vaccinated have had it – they’re effectively vaccinated.
Again, not true. They would be less likely to spread the virus in future if they were also vaccinated.
For the un-vaccinated infection will be their pathway to immunity. A lot more of them are going to die than those who are vaccinated, but then that’s their free (really stupid) choice right there.
The problem there is that the NHS does not have unlimited resources, so if hospitals uneccessarily fill with highly contagious anti-vaxers, that has a knock-on effect to their ability to treat others, vaccinated or not.
So give up on trying to kick anti-vaxxers. It’s not worth it.
No chance! 🙂
"Rather than laying plans to return to the ‘normal’ life we knew before the pandemic, 2022 is the year the world must come to terms with the fact that SARS-CoV-2 is here to stay."
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00057-y
@Pondo: "The problem there is that the NHS does not have unlimited resources, so if hospitals uneccessarily fill with highly contagious anti-vaxers, that has a knock-on effect to their ability to treat others, vaccinated or not. "
We're already over that hump. Peak has been hit and passed - and yes, absolutely if the fekking anti-vaxxers had not been such ****s the NHS would have had a much easier time of it - but omicron has been so infectious that we're on our way down the other side and the NHS is recovering.
If you really want to kick anti-vaxxers think of this fact and feel warm inside: The unvaccinated are more than 30 times more likely to die of covid. So lots of them have been having a really horrible time of it.
If that's what makes you feel warm 🙁
The ONLY place she’d been where she could have picked it up in the timeframe was the co-op.
Or from a none symptomatic family member who’s LFT didn’t show up they were a carrier.
I’d go with that over popping into the co-op.
If the vaccine doesn't provide sterile immunity, which it doesn't, making it the basis of anything like what has been proposed is ipso facto wrong.
You might not like that to be the case, but it is.
I'm really sorry, because i really believe that YOU should take this vaccine - I have, THREE TIMES - but the way it works makes it impossible to force it on the unsure with any moral authority.
If, as seems likely, annual/bi-annual boosters become part of our armoury, how are we to keep up with the vaccine status of one of the largest workforces in the world? Can you only work on the Ward in 2025 if you've had your 5th booster? Will proof of recent infection and your 6th be enough in 2026?
I don't really understand why these people are being refuseniks, but i'm afraid i have to side with them on this one.
We’re already over that hump. Peak has been hit and passed – and yes, absolutely if the fekking anti-vaxxers had not been such **** the NHS would have had a much easier time of it – but omicron has been so infectious that we’re on our way down the other side and the NHS is recovering.
We might have just passed the current peak, but it seems flippant at this point to say "the NHS is recovering" - haven't we, like, just removed a shit-ton of restrictions? A somewhat different environment, I know, but Mrs Pondo's school is sinking under staff and pupil covid absence - they can't get cover teachers, so some year groups are watching films in the hall rather than doing lessons. That doesn't sound like a recovery phase to me.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare
If the vaccine doesn’t provide sterile immunity, which it doesn’t, making it the basis of anything like what has been proposed is ipso facto wrong.
You might not like that to be the case, but it is.
Well, how scientific. **** the vulnerable and elderly, right? And let's not forget that it does kill the young and healthy, and that long covid is horrific - but since it's ipso facto wrong, that's just hard cheese on them, gotcha. Glad that's all been cleared up! 🙂
Unless you're some sort of libertarian loony, requiring some workers to have a vaccine is not right or wrong in and of itself. It is right or wrong (or necessary or whatever) depending on the reasons behind it and the benefits it will bring. I seem to be a sort of accidental consequentialist in this because the consequences of having health care staff vaccinated or not are important.
I'm firmly in the 'just get the ******* vaccine' camp and have limited sympathy for those who won't. However, due to the nature of the virus, the effectiveness of the vaccines and the potential effects of further staff shortages I'm not convinced this is a fight worth fighting.
but the way it works makes it impossible to force it on the unsure with any moral authority.
You mean "coerced" not "forced" I've not seen any evidence of anyone forcibly made to take it. Possibly a scenario where someone is so debilitated by illness a decision is taken for them.
I've seen "force" used quite a lot to describe something that's a "choice". Is that a purposeful part of an agenda to inject false language into a debate?
The problem there is that the NHS does not have unlimited resources, so if hospitals uneccessarily fill with highly contagious anti-vaxers, that has a knock-on effect to their ability to treat others, vaccinated or not.
5 or 6 million people are on an NHS waiting list. If you think the NHS has ANY capacity to give up beds to people who choose to not take a simple step to prevent them catching Covid and taking an easily avoidable bedspace from someone else, you need to have a look at what reality you are inhabiting.
If, as seems likely, annual/bi-annual boosters become part of our armoury, how are we to keep up with the vaccine status of one of the largest workforces in the world?
Well maybe they could have some sort of medical record, wait I’m on to something here. Maybe these medical records could also be used for 60m people in the UK too.
Well maybe they could have some sort of medical record, wait I’m on to something here. Maybe these medical records could also be used for 60m people in the UK too.
I'm just dreaming here, but wouldn't it be cool if your medical record could be linked to, I dunno, maybe some kind of portable device so that you could, in seconds, prove your vaccination status wherever you went? Science fantasy, I know, but just imagine! 🙂
Unless you are anti-portable device. I have heard they track everything you do and some greater powers then control you with it.
Steady on guys let’s not get too sci-fi here.
I apologise profusely to anyone I have offended/upset.
This thread to me was a Troll from the start so I haven’t read all of it and was piss taking. Insensitive sorry. I find in dark times dark humor can help.
Mrs Pondo’s school is sinking under staff and pupil covid absence – they can’t get cover teachers
Same here. Where my OH works the covid relief staff are falling to covid. They were sent a supply teacher and two supply TAs yesterday, one of the TAs didn't turn up. They're in this weird parallel universe where seemingly a teacher requires a TA, but a TA is expected to manage a class on their own and that's fine. 🤷♀️🤷♂️
