[Closed] Am I in the wrong?

You did them a favour with the doors, and it sound like that was probably your mistake... Not wrong, but some peoples is shits sadly.

You're in the right, but good luck getting anything back...

Sounds to me like the only error you made was to trust someone who wasn't too be trusted.

Allowing some to use your Howdens account...

I'd put it down to experience and move on. I think you're well within your rights to be peeved though if that helps.

No I wouldn't expect a receipt. Not sure I'm following what went on with the doors....or why it is a moral conundrum?

Yes, TBH it's my fault for letting them, I thought we had a good trusting working relationship as all was rosy whilst quoting and doing the job, just turned sour when the topic of money was mentioned!

In 6 years of sole trading I have not come across anyone like this and I guess trust people to do the right thing!

Tom, you're right. not my morals that need to be questioned, I'll edit that bit.

Sorry if it's a bit non coherent, was typing whilst angry still.

They ordered items on your account without telling you and are refusing to pay for them? Er... Can't see how this can be misinterpreted to be honest... they are trying to cheat you! Definitely have words with Howdens as well. FWIW I almost never receive receipts from my suppliers and I never give them to customers (unless they pay cash).

You've missed out the crucial detail.

What were the additional items?

What reasons did the customer give for believing you should have been supplied originally?

Not having a pop but if you were this vague with the customer then maybe you didn't make it clear enough to them either.

What were the additional items?

Some businesses send remittance advice to show they've paid your invoice, but that seems to be a business to business thing and certainly not all firms do it.

Sounds like your customers are a couple of shites.

They wanted a receipt from me for the works, didn't actually ask for one so I didn't supply one. thought the invoice and electronic trail was enough.

I had exactly the same problem a couple of years ago, took the customer to Howdens to select a couple of doors, paid on my account, fitted said doors then received an invoice for a several thousand pounds in extra doors, door furniture and various kitchen appliances.
The cheeky bastards had seen how easy it was to use a trade account and shopped till they drooped at my expense, I threatened to go to the police and eventually after a couple of months got the money off them.
Howdens didn't want to know although they did put my account on hold till the situation was sorted.
It did leave a very bad taste.

So they've tried to cheat you and been abusive ?

I'd write them a letter giving them 3 options:

1. return the bits
2. Pay for the bits
3. County court in 14 days if they don't do 1 or 2.

Wallop, nothing much, a couple of latches and some handles. only about £20-30, it's just the way they couldn't see why they'd have to pay for them that annoyed me.

They ordered items on your account without telling you and are refusing to pay for them?

Ive never sent out a reciept atfer payment cheeky so and so's no doubt there telling everyone they can now not have anything to do with you aswell w***ers

This is part of the argument that will be had with Howdens in the morning, They didn't contact me, they went straight to Howdens and got them dropped off by the delivery driver, 1st I knew of it was when the invoice dropped through the door!

Ah right clearer now. What cranberry said! Cheeky shites! Slash their tyres too! and post shit through their letter box. Then murder them to death with a tile saw.

It's easy for us construction folk to understand that ironmongery isn't included in the purchase price of doors. Sadly your thieving customers have failed to appreciate this.

You've said Howden aren't going to charge you. I'd suck it up but write the customers a snotty letter letting them know their fraudulent actions have resulted in you being out of pocket. Hell, send them an invoice!

FWIW I wouldn't have expected a receipt once I'd paid you.

I dont send out receipts, but I always thank my clients for settling invoices (and in so doing they then know that the payment has been received).

In your case here though, regardless of your own approach on receipt of payment, it has nothing to do with them being a myopic eejits. But give Howdens a big kick up the arse for their part in the story.

I know **** all about man stuff, but even I know that doors don't come with handles and hinges!

Is it possible that the customers thought that they had already paid for the handles etc when you cleared the original Howdens bill? Did you show them an itemized copy of what you had paid for? Had they ordered the stuff from Howdens with the doors but Howdens forgot it and they think that they're now being asked to pay for it twice?

County court in 14 days cranberry? It's not as quick or as simple as that you know.

Before anyone passes judgement can you tell us if the 'small extras' are indeed things you should have supplied.

It seems from your comment and also the fact that they didn't get anything extravagant that they probably have a point and wanted the extra items that they were due. Faced with someone who has been paid for the job and maybe they feel hasn't lived up to the contract then it may be reasonable for them to sort it on your account.

Just seems strange that they would use your account for such trivial things that sound like they would be part of the original job.

Yes, TBH it's my fault for letting them, I thought we had a good trusting working relationship as all was rosy whilst quoting and doing the job, just turned sour when the topic of money was mentioned!

In 6 years of sole trading I have not come across anyone like this and I guess trust people to do the right thing!

Firstly well done for achieving 6 years without being conned it usually happens a lot sooner and a lot more than you think.There should be a tv programe called rouge customers,who deliberately find ways of not paying,thankfully i have had very few.

Secondly our local Howdens had a big sign up a few years ago stating that all purchases had to be with a valid order sheet, and they also rang the ofice to check,reason being that some dubious non customers had been over ordering stuff on the tradesmans account, also a howdens account is valid in any branch, and they never used to ask you for proof of ownership of said account.

Finally ever wondered why the sheds always put a sign up on their doors on display saying handles,hinges and latches are extra, because some stupid people expect them to be supplied with the door at no extra cost.

Maybe you should try reading the whole thread, TheLittlestHobo

I know * all about man stuff,

*

Send them a 'receipt' thanking them for partial payment and detaling / requesting the outstanding amount

"maybe they feel hasn't lived up to the contract then it may be reasonable for them to sort it on your account."

NEVER ACCEPTABLE

its obtaining goods by fraud pretending to be someone you are not.

The Littlest,

I stated when originally asked that I wanted nothing to do with the door side of things, i didn't trouble myself to find out what they'd ordered, I just settled the bill and passed it on. If they were short changed by Howdens, which I suspect is the case, then Howdens should sort it and not invoice me, but the least I'd expect the customer to do was tell me before ordering further items, and offer to pay there and then if payment was due.

Just seems strange that they would use your account for such trivial things

So its not as clear cut. You suspect they have been short changed. Not by you but by howdens. They have therefore taken action by getting the stuff from howdens by hook or by crook. Not condoning it butt it's your account and you shouldn't have let them have the use of . To the smart ass comments before, if I hadn't asked my question we wouldn't have got the comment re short changed. Maybe you shouldn't be such smart Alec's

TheLittlestHobo - Member
Maybe you shouldn't be such smart Alec's

Smart Alec's what?

First step is to send them an invoice for the stuff. You won't get far in court if you haven't formally asked them to pay. I'd slap an "admin fee" equivalent to the value of the good on to it for good measure, and to give some room for negotiation.

I often ask for receipts from tradesmen for landlady stuff, what I usually get back is the original invoice on which somebody has scribbled "paid" in crayon half the time. Or just marked with an X or thumbprint. Let's hope I never get audited.

If a subcontractor supplies me with materials or pays for something else on my behalf I expect to see a 15-20% OH&P charge on top of the actual cost. This is to cover the fact that you'll probably pay the supplier for the goods before I pay you.

"I'll send you a receipt when you've paid for the additional items"

A word of advice B-S, in future make sure your trade accounts only supply on receipt of a purchase order, then if they supply to anyone purporting to be you, you simply ask your supplier to quote which purchase order it is relating to. No order, no pay. I learnt the hard way.

Not by you but by howdens. They have therefore taken action by getting the stuff from howdens by hook or by crook.

You're still not reading the thread. Try this bit :

[i]"This prompted me to call them for an explanation which resorted in me receiving a tirade of abuse for trying to rip them off!"[/i]

If they had any sort of issue with what they had received then they should contacted Blazin-saddles, instead of engaging in fraudulent activity. The fact that Howdens won't charge Blazin-saddles for the extra items proves that they don't consider it to have been a legal transaction.

Based on the information provided by Blazin-saddles, which is all we have, the customer was bang out of order.

instead of engaging in fraudulent activity

.....I agreed to them getting them on my account with Howdens

Not really Fraud once he has given them permission to use his Account at Howdens.

Bad form, but not fraud.

Not really Fraud once he has given them permission to use his Account at Howdens.

Well you read that very differently to me. I took him agreeing to getting their doors on his account as meaning that he was doing it, [i]not[/i] as giving [i]them[/i] the authority to use his account.

Earnie, I am reading it. I just prefer to read and then wonder what the other party are thinking. Maybe you shouldn't just jump to conclusions. If we are getting on high horses I presume there will be terms and conditions applied to the trade account which covers howdens in the instance where a trade account is 'borrowed' with the account holders permission. A bit like handing yer PIN number over really isn't it.

Now if they didn't think he had treated them correctly (I don't even hope to know yet if he has or hasn't) then why is it safe to presume the reasonable thing was for them to discuss it with him. Your comment about howdens is a presumption. I bet if they were so inclined and it is not misunderstood that he gave them access to his trade account then it is reasonable to assume they could tell him to do one. They won't because I expect he is a good customer who has made an honest mistake, but your quote is another presumption based on nothing.

Again, I do not disagree the customer is bang out of order, but the guy admitted the customer may have been short changed by someone.

Well you read that very differently to me. I took him agreeing to getting their doors on his account as meaning that he was doing it, not as giving them the authority to use his account.

Two ways of reading it I suppose, maybe the OP can let us know which it is ?

........I agreed to [b]them getting them [/b]on my account with Howdens

That was the bit that made me presume that "they" used his account.

EDIT : This really isn't worth arguing over ! 🙂

Very cheeky behaviour by the customer and I’m with the consensus, that they were bang out of order.

You would never get home on s.2 Fraud by False Representation (Fraud Act 2006) in my opinion because it would be difficult to prove the necessary dishonest intent. I’m reading it, that the OP gave them permission to make the purchase on his account. They would argue that they had an honest held belief that the permission given to them extended to the handles, locks etc.

Exactly.

Hope the op gets his money back. Hope the customer finds something wrong with their 'extra' doors and hope ernie stops having a pop at people trying to join a conversation