[Closed] Am I in the wrong?

You did them a favour with the doors, and it sound like that was probably your mistake... Not wrong, but some peoples is shits sadly.

You're in the right, but good luck getting anything back...

Sounds to me like the only error you made was to trust someone who wasn't too be trusted.

Allowing some to use your Howdens account...

I'd put it down to experience and move on. I think you're well within your rights to be peeved though if that helps.

No I wouldn't expect a receipt. Not sure I'm following what went on with the doors....or why it is a moral conundrum?

Yes, TBH it's my fault for letting them, I thought we had a good trusting working relationship as all was rosy whilst quoting and doing the job, just turned sour when the topic of money was mentioned!

In 6 years of sole trading I have not come across anyone like this and I guess trust people to do the right thing!

Tom, you're right. not my morals that need to be questioned, I'll edit that bit.

Sorry if it's a bit non coherent, was typing whilst angry still.

They ordered items on your account without telling you and are refusing to pay for them? Er... Can't see how this can be misinterpreted to be honest... they are trying to cheat you! Definitely have words with Howdens as well. FWIW I almost never receive receipts from my suppliers and I never give them to customers (unless they pay cash).

You've missed out the crucial detail.

What were the additional items?

What reasons did the customer give for believing you should have been supplied originally?

Not having a pop but if you were this vague with the customer then maybe you didn't make it clear enough to them either.

What were the additional items?

Some businesses send remittance advice to show they've paid your invoice, but that seems to be a business to business thing and certainly not all firms do it.

Sounds like your customers are a couple of shites.

They wanted a receipt from me for the works, didn't actually ask for one so I didn't supply one. thought the invoice and electronic trail was enough.

I had exactly the same problem a couple of years ago, took the customer to Howdens to select a couple of doors, paid on my account, fitted said doors then received an invoice for a several thousand pounds in extra doors, door furniture and various kitchen appliances.
The cheeky bastards had seen how easy it was to use a trade account and shopped till they drooped at my expense, I threatened to go to the police and eventually after a couple of months got the money off them.
Howdens didn't want to know although they did put my account on hold till the situation was sorted.
It did leave a very bad taste.

So they've tried to cheat you and been abusive ?

I'd write them a letter giving them 3 options:

1. return the bits
2. Pay for the bits
3. County court in 14 days if they don't do 1 or 2.

Wallop, nothing much, a couple of latches and some handles. only about £20-30, it's just the way they couldn't see why they'd have to pay for them that annoyed me.

They ordered items on your account without telling you and are refusing to pay for them?

Ive never sent out a reciept atfer payment cheeky so and so's no doubt there telling everyone they can now not have anything to do with you aswell w***ers

This is part of the argument that will be had with Howdens in the morning, They didn't contact me, they went straight to Howdens and got them dropped off by the delivery driver, 1st I knew of it was when the invoice dropped through the door!

Ah right clearer now. What cranberry said! Cheeky shites! Slash their tyres too! and post shit through their letter box. Then murder them to death with a tile saw.

It's easy for us construction folk to understand that ironmongery isn't included in the purchase price of doors. Sadly your thieving customers have failed to appreciate this.

You've said Howden aren't going to charge you. I'd suck it up but write the customers a snotty letter letting them know their fraudulent actions have resulted in you being out of pocket. Hell, send them an invoice!

FWIW I wouldn't have expected a receipt once I'd paid you.

I dont send out receipts, but I always thank my clients for settling invoices (and in so doing they then know that the payment has been received).

In your case here though, regardless of your own approach on receipt of payment, it has nothing to do with them being a myopic eejits. But give Howdens a big kick up the arse for their part in the story.

I know **** all about man stuff, but even I know that doors don't come with handles and hinges!

Is it possible that the customers thought that they had already paid for the handles etc when you cleared the original Howdens bill? Did you show them an itemized copy of what you had paid for? Had they ordered the stuff from Howdens with the doors but Howdens forgot it and they think that they're now being asked to pay for it twice?

County court in 14 days cranberry? It's not as quick or as simple as that you know.

Before anyone passes judgement can you tell us if the 'small extras' are indeed things you should have supplied.

It seems from your comment and also the fact that they didn't get anything extravagant that they probably have a point and wanted the extra items that they were due. Faced with someone who has been paid for the job and maybe they feel hasn't lived up to the contract then it may be reasonable for them to sort it on your account.

Just seems strange that they would use your account for such trivial things that sound like they would be part of the original job.

Yes, TBH it's my fault for letting them, I thought we had a good trusting working relationship as all was rosy whilst quoting and doing the job, just turned sour when the topic of money was mentioned!

In 6 years of sole trading I have not come across anyone like this and I guess trust people to do the right thing!

Firstly well done for achieving 6 years without being conned it usually happens a lot sooner and a lot more than you think.There should be a tv programe called rouge customers,who deliberately find ways of not paying,thankfully i have had very few.

Secondly our local Howdens had a big sign up a few years ago stating that all purchases had to be with a valid order sheet, and they also rang the ofice to check,reason being that some dubious non customers had been over ordering stuff on the tradesmans account, also a howdens account is valid in any branch, and they never used to ask you for proof of ownership of said account.

Finally ever wondered why the sheds always put a sign up on their doors on display saying handles,hinges and latches are extra, because some stupid people expect them to be supplied with the door at no extra cost.

Maybe you should try reading the whole thread, TheLittlestHobo

I know * all about man stuff,

*

Send them a 'receipt' thanking them for partial payment and detaling / requesting the outstanding amount

"maybe they feel hasn't lived up to the contract then it may be reasonable for them to sort it on your account."

NEVER ACCEPTABLE

its obtaining goods by fraud pretending to be someone you are not.

The Littlest,

I stated when originally asked that I wanted nothing to do with the door side of things, i didn't trouble myself to find out what they'd ordered, I just settled the bill and passed it on. If they were short changed by Howdens, which I suspect is the case, then Howdens should sort it and not invoice me, but the least I'd expect the customer to do was tell me before ordering further items, and offer to pay there and then if payment was due.

Just seems strange that they would use your account for such trivial things

So its not as clear cut. You suspect they have been short changed. Not by you but by howdens. They have therefore taken action by getting the stuff from howdens by hook or by crook. Not condoning it butt it's your account and you shouldn't have let them have the use of . To the smart ass comments before, if I hadn't asked my question we wouldn't have got the comment re short changed. Maybe you shouldn't be such smart Alec's

TheLittlestHobo - Member
Maybe you shouldn't be such smart Alec's

Smart Alec's what?

First step is to send them an invoice for the stuff. You won't get far in court if you haven't formally asked them to pay. I'd slap an "admin fee" equivalent to the value of the good on to it for good measure, and to give some room for negotiation.

I often ask for receipts from tradesmen for landlady stuff, what I usually get back is the original invoice on which somebody has scribbled "paid" in crayon half the time. Or just marked with an X or thumbprint. Let's hope I never get audited.

If a subcontractor supplies me with materials or pays for something else on my behalf I expect to see a 15-20% OH&P charge on top of the actual cost. This is to cover the fact that you'll probably pay the supplier for the goods before I pay you.

"I'll send you a receipt when you've paid for the additional items"

A word of advice B-S, in future make sure your trade accounts only supply on receipt of a purchase order, then if they supply to anyone purporting to be you, you simply ask your supplier to quote which purchase order it is relating to. No order, no pay. I learnt the hard way.

Not by you but by howdens. They have therefore taken action by getting the stuff from howdens by hook or by crook.

You're still not reading the thread. Try this bit :

[i]"This prompted me to call them for an explanation which resorted in me receiving a tirade of abuse for trying to rip them off!"[/i]

If they had any sort of issue with what they had received then they should contacted Blazin-saddles, instead of engaging in fraudulent activity. The fact that Howdens won't charge Blazin-saddles for the extra items proves that they don't consider it to have been a legal transaction.

Based on the information provided by Blazin-saddles, which is all we have, the customer was bang out of order.

instead of engaging in fraudulent activity

.....I agreed to them getting them on my account with Howdens

Not really Fraud once he has given them permission to use his Account at Howdens.

Bad form, but not fraud.

Not really Fraud once he has given them permission to use his Account at Howdens.

Well you read that very differently to me. I took him agreeing to getting their doors on his account as meaning that he was doing it, [i]not[/i] as giving [i]them[/i] the authority to use his account.

Earnie, I am reading it. I just prefer to read and then wonder what the other party are thinking. Maybe you shouldn't just jump to conclusions. If we are getting on high horses I presume there will be terms and conditions applied to the trade account which covers howdens in the instance where a trade account is 'borrowed' with the account holders permission. A bit like handing yer PIN number over really isn't it.

Now if they didn't think he had treated them correctly (I don't even hope to know yet if he has or hasn't) then why is it safe to presume the reasonable thing was for them to discuss it with him. Your comment about howdens is a presumption. I bet if they were so inclined and it is not misunderstood that he gave them access to his trade account then it is reasonable to assume they could tell him to do one. They won't because I expect he is a good customer who has made an honest mistake, but your quote is another presumption based on nothing.

Again, I do not disagree the customer is bang out of order, but the guy admitted the customer may have been short changed by someone.

Well you read that very differently to me. I took him agreeing to getting their doors on his account as meaning that he was doing it, not as giving them the authority to use his account.

Two ways of reading it I suppose, maybe the OP can let us know which it is ?

........I agreed to [b]them getting them [/b]on my account with Howdens

That was the bit that made me presume that "they" used his account.

EDIT : This really isn't worth arguing over ! 🙂

Very cheeky behaviour by the customer and I’m with the consensus, that they were bang out of order.

You would never get home on s.2 Fraud by False Representation (Fraud Act 2006) in my opinion because it would be difficult to prove the necessary dishonest intent. I’m reading it, that the OP gave them permission to make the purchase on his account. They would argue that they had an honest held belief that the permission given to them extended to the handles, locks etc.

Exactly.

Hope the op gets his money back. Hope the customer finds something wrong with their 'extra' doors and hope ernie stops having a pop at people trying to join a conversation

am I wrong?
[img] [/img]

3.14?

Even if they did believe the purchase covered handles etc, when told they hadn't been billed for that their response should have been "I'm sorry, please send us an invoice for the additional amount and we will pay immediately" NOT "ha ha ha you didn't know and didn't bill us for us the first time, so ha ha ha we ain't paying ya boo sucks !"

Some people are just knobbers. You try to help them, and they act like this...

I’m reading it, that the OP gave them permission to make the purchase on his account. They would argue that they had an honest held belief that the permission given to them extended to the handles, locks etc.

That seems to sum up my understanding of it nicely except it needs to be added that the op's customer is refusing to pay for the subsequently collected handles, locks etc.

EDIT: as hels says 🙂

hels, psling,

Agreed. Someone floated whether any criminal offences had been engaged - which is what I was addressing. I think they ought to have paid for the other items subsequently and by not doing so, they're being unreasonable.

Client if you can call them that totally bang out of order.

But regardless of how your paid I always send the client a final invoice
and if I don't charge for an item I still send a zero rated invoice to show
no charge to the client as this will come out of my profit.

But I certainly wouldn't be happy for whats gone on here.
What you call in the trade a Knocker

County court in 14 days cranberry? It's not as quick or as simple as that you know.

indeed - what my hungover brain meant to say
was 'small claims court'.

D'oh.

IANAL ( and I think it shows ).

Some real arse wipes on here, OP agreed to get doors on his account and added the doors to his bill and the customer paid. OP then got bill for extra items customer ordered from Howdens without his knowledge both customer & Howdens out of order especially customer for taking liberties and abuse. It's quite simple, OP well within his rights to ask customer for payment of extra items.

Some real arse wipes on here

can you be more specific, I don't know if i should be offended ?

Both customer & Howdens out of order especially customer for taking liberties and abuse.

Agreed that the customer is out of order.

No way of knowing if Howdens have done anything wrong, because we don't know if he had given the customer authority to use his Howdens account ??

It's quite simple, OP well within his rights to ask customer for payment of extra items.

Agreed.

Im reading it customer asks to use bs account to order doors customer goes to Howdens to order door without bs present cos bs doesnt know what doors they got, bs invoices cust for work plus doors cust realises no handles and catches for doors so goes to howdens as before to get some as prob cheaper than diy shed. Cust being a knob and not paying is not on as he didnt order handles and catches at first transaction customers oversight and should pay.

Sturmey,

That's exactly how it seems to me, which is why I don't think Howdens have done anything wrong really (presuming customer had authority to use the account)

some customers are indeed knobbers, remind me to add Thelittlesthobo to my bad customer list.

it's for this very reason that I don't do favors anymore for people, it invariably comes back on you at some point. I also never, ever supply goods without payment upfront. if the customer doesn't want to do this, I walk away add there's no reason for them not to. I haven't had a customer on the last 5 years refuse to do so

Hi All,

This seems to have stirred things up. haha. don't be falling out about this, I've already fallen out with 2 more people than need be over it!

It's only a few quid so not going to be taking anyone to court etc. i'll ring up Howdens in morning, have a moan and if they won't do anything then I guess I'll chalk it to experience and move on. My big nark really is that they hadn't contacted me before the reorder of parts, if It wasn't for the fact I'd not used Howdens in a couple of weeks so noticed the invoice come in, I'd never even know anything had been added, I'd have just paid the monthly account.

To firm up things, I agreed to have 3 internal doors added to my kitchen delivery originally. They didn't know which ones they wanted so they went to the store to have a look. I heard no more about it until 10 new internal doors, a box of handles, locks, hinges and stuff arrived with kitchen, which I unloaded as they weren't around and stacked neatly in the garage for them. I wasn't happy about it as I agreed 3, but what can I do? at this point I haven't fitted the kitchen so no point in an argument over them.

I got the price for them from my original bill, and invoiced for them accordingly. I didn't give them permission to use my account as they saw fit.

Either way, it's done. Conclusion is some people are are decent and fair, others are gits, these appear to be gits!

Funky

I too normally have a no favours rule, and no "can you just" but though I was on safe ground here as they were a nice couple that I thought I got on well with, that is until it came to getting the check book out!

c'est la vie.

been there done that.... hence the rule. some people make sport of taking the pish

Blazin my dad is self employed as a plasterer/decorator/tiler(he even fitted a kitchen once!) he often does favours for people like you have-imo people really take the piss with him sometimes and it wouldn't surprise me if he gets left out of pocket. He's never really made a huge amount of money doing what he does as a result!

Seriously don't take any shit from people like this or from Howdens!

I've an account with Howdons that gets used regularly. If a customer wants to buy anything on it, it's paid direct to Howdons at the point of sale. Why should I offer credit terms when I'm not fitting the items.
The always phone me if anyone is trying to use my account anyway.

That is definitely taking the piss they ordered what they thought they needed not you so no way should the extra bits be down to you howdens may have messed up telling customer what he needed to order or delivered short.

Isn't it shit when you try and do something nice for people and they take the piss. I'm not quite following how they can use your account without you knowing about it, but you need that fixed. And I'll slap you if you let them get away with not paying for things they've ****ing fraudulently ordered! There are nice people in the world like me, and it's these people you should be helping, not people who are ripping you off!!!

BTW, can you get me some new cupboards for me kitchen?

I'm not quite following how they can use your account without you knowing about it, but you need that fixed.

The customer went in with the acount holder first, then when they arived without him they where recognised and just asked for what they wanted, and signed for the stock,usually all howdens ask for is trading name and postcode, eg Project Joinery, L3..., and you get a high credit limit.

Hey funky monkey, tell me where I have said I would do the same or anywhere I have said it was right to do what his customer has done. Remind me to add you to the list of arse wipes on this site who think they know everything.

All I did was question something and try to understand if the customer had reason to do what they did. This is what most people consider to be reasonable before jumping to conclusions.

I wouldn't normally use the term arse wipe but I noticed someone else has used it earlier.

Blazin, hope it's sorted out ok. I just like to ask that's all.

I'll update tomorrow!

Just to add I have been subject to being taken for a ride and its always the seemingly genuine people who take the piss. The ones you go that little bit extra (like using your account). The hard nosed people who agree a deal with no grey areas always tend to pay when agreed and get exactly what they expect.

Like others I don't get involved in favours or anything that little bit extra anymore. (That sounds wrong)

I'm not seeing how it's the OP's problem.

The customer bought items on the OP's trade account without the OP's knowledge or consent. Howdens should be refunding the OP and chasing the customer for fraudulent use of someone else's account.

N'est-ce pas? Otherwise, what's to stop them rocking up and ordering a new kitchen on his account next week?

I'm out

How did your parents take it hobo? Well I hope

If I had been your customer and wanted that favour I would have gone and got all the order codes etc and sizes then offered you something for your trouble and I would have made sure you had cash on delivery (if you could price them then) or you would have had a bank transfer before your trade account fell due. Whats more you wouldnt be waiting 3weeks for your money either. Cash in place before work starts.

I would also respect you saying no you didnt want to do it.

Unfortunately there seems to be some right blighters around.

The customer bought items on the OP's trade account without the OP's knowledge or consent.

Cougar that is the crux of the matter, it is obtaining goods and/or services by deception.. criminal offence, I'd have brought the police in..

... but then I'm in really crappy mood right now and fit to rip someones head off and spit down their neck

I can see that the OP doesn't want the hassle of chasing them over £20 quid or so, but if I was in that position, I'd certainly invoice them for it, with a note implying that further action was a possibility. Hopefully make the piss-taking gits have a bit of a sweat over it.

It's always the nice seeming ones. Girl a couple of doors down from me ripped off a pensioner handyman for a number of jobs he did for her, then refused to pay some painters for a very nice job they did on her house exterior.

Apparently she suffered some broken windows in a totally unrelated incident shortly afterwards, though.

What's that little dig about pik?

For 20/30 quid, I wouldn't think about it too much, move on and learn not to trust a customer with your trade account. Next time order the items yourself and stick on 20/30% for the trouble.

a mate of mine got knocked for about 500 quid for a job he done on some new build estate. the guy was a right tit and used loads of feeble, nit picking excuses not to pay up. matey ended up going around with a can of expanding foam. shook it up like crazy before reaching up into the guy's brand new M5 engine bay and piercing the can.

How did your parents take it hobo? Well I hope

Lol 🙂

No dig, jokey comment. 2unfit got it but clearly your sense of humour less.
Feel hard done by then report it 😉