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There are risks from any medication, they are risks from any illness -being able to weight those up logically seems to be the issue, especially when an added factor for some people is that it is a big government conspiracy...
The short term effects have been rxamined in great detail but the medium and long term is still very much a mystery.
Well depends what you mean. A year ago I was also a bit sceptical/surprised about how fast vaccines based on new technology had been produced. Valneva have produced a vaccine using "classic" vaccine science and only just getting to market now (although if they'd had a bit more gov support I'm sure it could have been a bit quicker). However, I bothered to go and understand how the "innovative" vaccines (e.g. mRNA) had done it so quick - and the answer is they didn't! They've been working on those innovations for about 10 yrs, all they did was switch the particular targets they were encoding. So there is some long term data on the underlying vaccine platforms - its just the particular proteins that are being encoded that are (obviously) peculiar to sars-cov2. The safety profile is not really a long term mystery - many experts in medicine safety have spent many days scrutinising the products and their offerings. If you are a competent scientist who has identified a weakness in what they've scrutinised then probably best to pop your message to the MHRA and perhaps ask the editors of the Lancet and BMJ to include it. It is possible that some new, previously unknown risk will come to light but then it is possible that some new long term side effect of covid infection will come to light. But mostly the "we don't know the long term effects" people are just feeding an anti-vax misinformation campaign - especially when they use stuff like this to support their point:
It is only recently becoming apparent that booster jabs are necessary.
I think that is misleading. You say that like it was a surprise or a discovery that came out of research that nobody had anticipated. It has always been apparent to anyone vaguely connected with vaccines that boosters would likely be required at some point, and I think your "only recently" is just is disingenuous - we've been doing boosters for some time based on the available evidence! We would give flu boosters every six months if the disease was as prevalent as COVID so lets not present needing a booster as a weakness of the vaccines which exceed everyone's original hopes for how much they might reduce the death rate by.
Plenty of vaccines need boosters. I'd assume this would be considered. The common ones like tetanus, polio etc. all have more than one dose and you get additional doses in some circumstances.
Part of the ongoing trials are to assess this and understand the needs.
Even with well established vaccines there is research (it is the nature of science to question!). I think it was rabies that when I had the first 3 doses I was told I'd need a booster at 5 years. When it came to 5 they had enough information to say, actually, you are good for 10.
I still find it weird that people have decided that the covid vaccine is something to be worried about. I understand the idea that you don't want to have something when you don't know what's in it but how much do you really understand about what is in everything else? Toothpaste, shampoo, molluscs, pringles, mince, chicken Mcnuggets, potatoes - I mean I've never read a study on the ingredients on any of those things. What's the line that is crossed with the vaccine?
It is only recently becoming apparent that booster jabs are necessary. The full and comprehensive testing didn’t reveal that little nugget of wisdom. What else is there to discover?
It hasn’t at all. That was mentioned from before it was even tested, thanks to decades of research on vaccines and development.
https://theconversation.com/a-coronavirus-vaccine-may-require-boosters-heres-what-that-means-143370
I still find it weird that people have decided that the covid vaccine is something to be worried about
Speaking personally as a practice manager at a GP, I meet and speak with folks who're still hesitant or haven't had it . Most folks aren't rabid anti-vaxxers (met just one who came into the surgery to hand out leaflets) most folks fall into 1. don't trust that it'll work, or will have weird side effects. 2. don't think COVID is dangerous to them personally 3. haven't really thought about it. 4. can't be bothered 5. very rarely; folks that just don't care about anyone else's health (often same people as 2) and lastly fall into some other minor category such as religious beliefs.
Granted, Covid also holds long term mysteries, but which holds the most risk is up for me to decide, not you!
For the u****ing millionth time, no one is taking this decision away from you.
What they are saying is that while you place the tiny, tiny, tiny risk of personal harm from the vaccine above the most vulnerable members of society, you can't interact with them professionally (whether in a care home or hospital).
That's it.
I have a colleague who is firmly in category 2 and 5 of the above. That and she can’t be arsed to drive the 3 miles to the vaccination centre.
Duh
Well that's cleared that up then.
Just want to add, absolute superbly written response from poly on the previous page. 👏👏
I have no time for your bullshit anecdotal arsehatery.
Was the highlight for me
I'd be interested to know the sources for the parts about 'not knowing about the likelihood of boosters' and the surprise at the vaccines main job currently being prevention of serious illness more than the prevention of transmission.
I'm not really sure I've seen much of either, I am however sure I've seen a truckload that contradicts those perceptions.
Is that a case of having "news" preselected for someone, or by the person in question, or something else. Such as not reading past the headlines etc?
What’s the line that is crossed with the vaccine?
It's just right-wing nutjobs pulling society's buttons and trying to piss off the establishment, that's all. Even if they are doing it subconsciously.
What’s the line that is crossed with the vaccine?
Some folks just don't like to be told what to do. It pissed them off that everyone was "being paid to sit at home" and now it pisses them off that they have to get a jab. Dare I mention the words Boomer, Entitled and Attitude?
It’s just right-wing nutjobs pulling society’s buttons
Fake news. You push buttons.
Dare I mention the words Boomer, Entitled and Attitude?
Snowflake.
Snowflake.
Them too. Anecdotally, the two groups who are the biggest refuseniks in the practice currently are 20-30 because they're immortal obvs, and the Well Boomers, who are all fine, healthy, can't see what all the fuss is about, why can't i go to the golf club, etc etc...
"It has always been apparent to anyone vaguely connected with vaccines that boosters would likely be required at some point, and I think your “only recently” is just is disingenuous "
Then why is this a surprise to so many?
It's one thing for those "in the know" to know, but why not be more vocal in explaining it to everyone? Similarly, why promote the vaccines as the silver bullet that will rid us of covid and help protect each other? It has been known since last year that the vaccines' ability to prevent transmission is sketchy at best, yet this is how it has been sold to us, allowing many people to believe they no longer need to wear masks in confined spaces. This perhaps explains why covid cases are rocketing, yet related deaths are near record low levels. The vaccine does not prevent hosting or re-infection. It simply makes any symptoms less serious. Why then is it necessary to force members of the medical professions to get vaccinated when wearing a mask is more effective?
It smacks of clutching at straws...
And ethically, as TJ said, is extremely dubious!
I give up.
It’s one thing for those “in the know” to know, but why not be more vocal in explaining it to everyone?
I guess their mistake was thinking everyone was paying attention to their Gran telling them she'd had a jab for Flu every year for the last half a century.
Then why is this a surprise to so many?
It’s one thing for those “in the know” to know, but why not be more vocal in explaining it to everyone?
Scroll back a few hundred pages here and you'll see it from people working in that field. Pretty sure it was talked about on BBC News when vaccines came out. It was out there people didn't (want?) to read it
why promote the vaccines as the silver bullet that will rid us of covid and help protect each other?
It was never said, even by the government to be fair, to get rid of Covid, it was always said the vaccine reduced the chance of serious illness, which would ease pressure on the NHS which meant restrictions could be relaxed. And they gave been. Again, it was out there but people didn't bother reading, hearing and understanding it.
This perhaps explains why covid cases are rocketing, yet related deaths are near record low levels. The vaccine does not prevent hosting or re-infection.
So not returning to offices, no masks, no limits on people you can meet, not that venues have no limits and because travel restrictions have gone. So, despite all those being lifted the cases still haven’t reached the highest levels, deaths are down and a majority deaths are on the unvaccinated. And yet you think it doesn’t help reduce infection?
I have little sympathy. When you have relatives that are effectively living in a well furnished prison, get the farkin jab. Their life won't improve until we get this problem beat.
MIL can only have 1 visit a week, and that's two nominated people. She's never seen one of her great grand children, and she's 18 months old. Catching covid is still rife in care settings, and hospitals. It's not us 'visitors' causing it - we can't have visitors at our local hospital, yet, in hospital catching of covid remains high.
Who is bringing it in then ?
One i saw a few weeks ago was that x% of patients in hospital haven’t had any vaccination, but when i read the small print the stats were from Feb 2021 when of course far fewer had been vaccinated. Again, not strictly true.
Some pretty compelling data coming through on the remarkable positive impact of C19 vaccination on admission, serious illness and death. Essentially in this sample only about 5% of C19 admissions are double vaccinated and 2% of the seriously ill and they tend to be very old.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00558-2/fulltext
Problem is when these findings come out of Bojo’s mouth it inevitably sounds totally unconvincing.
I choose not to employ plague rats.
How many people do you employ Cougar?
I think we should all take the vaccine but language like this is not helpful when there is a very real risk of care homes closing for example.
Clouded in mystery, behind the Great Firewall, Sinophavac and Sinopharm (the latter I've been vaccinated with), following tried and tested technology, is reportedly lower efficacy.
We had people over here spouting the misinformation surrounding mRNA technology vaccines until finally enough people told them to listen to what they were saying, sentence by sentence, word by word.
The pandemic is now endemic. The world has changed. You can take the vaccines now, or wait and take them later. There is likely to be no difference, except poverty. Those willing to lose their jobs and tgeb have to explain to potential future employers how they're not a team player might be making a big mistake.
I'm in a job that I'm required to be vaccinated to step foot on the premises. I've had to take plenty of vaccines in the past whilst travelling the world. It's typical, borne out of necessity. Like the series of rabies vaccines I had recently after a scratch. First drug gave me a serious adverse reaction halfway through the course, so I then had to start another drug. I get somewhat sick with all vaccinations admittedly.
Could be that certain communities are in bubbles of expectations and behaviour which, in this endemic crisis, needs their rulebooks rewritten.
Not sure where we are going to replace outlr lost healthcare workers from. Many societies we used to recruit from are more vaccine hesitant than our own society.
To sort of return this to topic.
Beyond TJ's ethical concerns, I wonder if this compulsion might actually do a good few of these non vaccinateds a favour. If you have nailed your colours to the good ship Antivax or SS Covid is a Myth and that's your 'edgy' new persona it must be quite hard to climb back down. In the world of the blind the one-eyed man is king - all your mates are as thick as shit so you having an alternative opinion, even a shit one, makes you the turd covered in sprinkles. You were once Dave the nobody who everybody ignored and now you are 'Antivx Dave', the local celeb nutjob with hundreds of like minded mates online. Then you have bellends like me calling you a dribbling moron - you are not going to let me win and take it now are you (see also Brexit)?
But being 'made' to take it or you'll lose your job - now there's a climb down mechanism that requires no loss of face and allows you to continue to blame everyone else with an added layer of big brother dictatorship to complain about; but secretly be kind of pleased you've got to take it. Toddler psychology 101.
To sort of return this to topic.
Thank you
How many people do you employ Cougar?
At this specific moment, none. But I've been involved in recruitment on and off since the mid-90s.
I think we should all take the vaccine but language like this is not helpful when there is a very real risk of care homes closing for example.
When there's a very real risk of care homes closing robust language is required because the alternative isn't working, we've tried. It is brilliant that people are questioning things, more of this sort of thing, but we already have answers to these questions and they don't want to hear them. It's a year on from when the CV vaccine was released and 225 years since Jenner first stuck a needle in his gardener's son and saved his life and yet we've still got people going "but why / I don't understand / mercury / autism / foetuses / untested / long-term effects / whatever other random ignorance you care to mention" and ten pages and counting of gentle explanation clearly isn't making the blindest bit of difference.
We had this self same argument around language with post-ref brexit five years ago and whilst you may actually be correct, how many minds has "being nice" actually changed? Anyone surprised that our "convince me" contributor hasn't been back? Were we mean to them?
If you don't like being told what to do then learn something and you won't need to be, if you don't want to learn something then put some trust in people whose life work this is. There's a lot of them. Vaccination works. The SARS vaccine has been subject to rigorous testing, just faster than usual because more people have worked on it than usual, because pandemic.
This isn't hard. Please stop trying to make it hard.
The SARS vaccine has been subject to rigorous testing, just faster than usual because more people have worked on it than usual, because pandemic.
🙋🏻♂️ SARS is decades of research which added to the ability to produce the covid 19 vaccine as well as the reasons you mention.
Anyway can we get back the original topic as we are drifting into covid thread.
“It has always been apparent to anyone vaguely connected with vaccines that boosters would likely be required at some point, and I think your “only recently” is just is disingenuous ”
Then why is this a surprise to so many?
I don't know. I wasn't aware it was a surprise to anybody never mind many? Where do you get your information that makes you surprised by this because I get most of mine from mainstream media and people like Prof Linda Bauld and Prof Devi Sridar (both public health experts - not vaccine gurus) have been talking about this on TV and newspapers since the rollout started.
It’s one thing for those “in the know” to know, but why not be more vocal in explaining it to everyone?
If you don't like the press - they are both regular twitter posters too. Certainly in Scotland's briefings I'm sure the First Minister, Health Minister, and Jason Leitch (Clinical Director of NHS Scotland) have all also answered questions early on about (a) how long immunity might last and (b) if there would be a booster program.
I obviously have my own prior knowledge bias - but I honestly think you'd have to go out your way to avoid covid vaccine discussions to not know this was always expected, some people thought with such a new vaccine it might not even last 6 months!
Similarly, why promote the vaccines as the silver bullet that will rid us of covid and help protect each other?
Again - I think to come to that conclusion you are being very selective in who you listen to. In fairness to the government they've had a LOT of public briefings so you didn't only get Boris' bluster but could hear the CMO and Chief Scientists saying that vaccines were key but weren't a magic solution.
It has been known since last year that the vaccines’ ability to prevent transmission is sketchy at best, yet this is how it has been sold to us,
And yet when the vaccines were rolled out the messaging was clear - don't assume you can't pass it on. Are people just listening to the bits of the story they want to believe?
allowing many people to believe they no longer need to wear masks in confined spaces.
I can't account for stupid. I live in a part of the UK where mask wearing is legally required in many places still and compliance is fairly good - although falling.
This perhaps explains why covid cases are rocketing,
Where are you seeing cases rocketing? Scottish case levels did rocket and have fallen to an unhappy plateau and creeping up slowly https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker/ which might be expected with the time of year and perhaps a COP26 effect.
Depending how much you want to read into the bumps the UK numbers have been fairly consistent since the start of summer, or have gone through three blips since the start of summer and are currently on a downward trend.
yet related deaths are near record low levels.
So almost like the vaccine works?
The vaccine does not prevent hosting or re-infection.
It simply makes any symptoms less serious. Why then is it necessary to force members of the medical professions to get vaccinated when wearing a mask is more effective?
If large numbers of NHS staff get sick or are forced to isolate because of exposure to sick people then the system breaks. Other colleagues get overwhelmed and are either off with stress of quit and the whole lot breaks down.
Making symptoms less serious was exactly the intention of the vaccine. I've no issue with people saying they think its wrong to make vaccination mandatory - but when the arguments against that start propagating vaccine myths rather than just a freedom/consent matter then its really damaging not just for the healthcare debate - but for people outside that who might have been swithering on the vaccine and are swayed against it on misleading info.
Well done poly, once again 👏
Yup.
My dad caught covid even with being double vaccinated, 10 days in hospital then on oxygen at home for a while, so without that vaccine he'd probably be dead, luckily my mum wasn't infected, he then went on to get his booster jab, so people banging on about antibodies and they've had covid so don't need the jab quit gambling with your and other people's lives, you're no expert. There's no pandemic amongst the vaccinated, the cases are massively reduced to easily managable levels, plain and simple, it's gonna be around for a few more years adapting into more deadly variants if dumb people don't stop this anti vax bs, it's not like its the first vaccine pushed on you, those thick as 💩 trump supporters in America are gonna keep the US a covid hotspot for years. We're better than that.
In the beginning of this month there were 255 uk covid deaths in one day, being this far down the line of vaccine availability makes this figure utterly shameful.
it’s gonna be around for a few more years adapting into more deadly variants if dumb people don’t stop this anti vax bs, it’s not like its the first vaccine pushed on you, those thick as 💩 trump supporters in America are gonna keep the US a covid hotspot for years.
This attitude really concerns me. The vaccine only reduces the chances of you catching Covid, and/or transmitting it to others. That is - you can still pass it on, even if vaccinated. 100% vaccination would not stop Covid from existing and continuing to mutate.
There’s no pandemic amongst the vaccinated
Don't be silly.
Take a look at Figure 2 in this report:
Case rates are higher for certain age groups, amongst the vaccinated. Yes, I am fully aware that the death rates amongst the vaccinated are significantly lower. That's fantastic - the vaccines have had a big impact on severe cases and deaths. Can we get on with our lives now??
If large numbers of NHS staff get sick or are forced to isolate because of exposure to sick people then the system breaks.
A close relative works in the NHS. I'm told that staff (at least at this particular site) systematically avoid being tested, because they fear the consequences on their colleagues and patients of being told to isolate for 10 days.
Out of interest, are you implying that a vaccinated person who has been exposed to a Covid case should not need to isolate?
Essentially in this sample only about 5% of C19 admissions are double vaccinated and 2% of the seriously ill and they tend to be very old.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00558-2/fulltext
/blockquote>That's not quite what the paper said, and it's critical to be accurate with this kind of information. 5% of people who tested positive for C19 when being admitted were unvaccinated. This is explained quite clearly later in the paper, when they explain why they found nearly 50% of measured C19 cases at the point of admission were asymptomatic:
...admitted to hospital for a non-COVID-19-related diagnosis but with an incidental positive PCR test for SARS-CoV-2
That's an interesting nugget of information in itself - nearly 50% of PCR confirmed C19 cases (at the point of admission to hospital) amongst the vaccinated were asymptomatic!
Table 3 in this report gives better data for this topic:
For example, C19 hospitalisations amongst the 30-39 age group were 3 in 100,000 for the double vaccinated, and 13 in 100,000 for the unvaccinated.
Actually, not today
A close relative works in the NHS. I’m told that staff (at least at this particular site) systematically avoid being tested, because they fear the consequences on their colleagues and patients of being told to isolate for 10 days.
I work for the NHS one of my roles is manning the Covid desk for staff. I can tell you that’s not going to happen, unless staff have broken the PPE and socially distance regulations.
Out of interest, are you implying that a vaccinated person who has been exposed to a Covid case should not need to isolate?
I’m not implying it! That’s the government rules (I don’t think it’s a Scotland only thing!)
1. Get a ping as a close contact. Get a PCR test
2. If PCR test is negative you must still isolate unless you are:
- double vaxxed OR
- participating in an official gov trial OR
- under 18
That’s off the top of my head and paraphrased so check the actual words (there may be other examples).
(Oh, but whilst I think it’s possible the post you referred to is correct - people say they are not testing to protect colleagues from workload that is both stupid and them lying, possibly even to themselves, if they are worried about the isolation it’s not the workload on colleagues it’s the 10 days effectively in home prison).
I work for the NHS one of my roles is manning the Covid desk for staff. I can tell you that’s not going to happen, unless staff have broken the PPE and socially distance regulations.
Drac - a workplace contact for nhs staff won’t count as a reason to isolate IF they were wearing PPE etc, although presumably does between colleagues in the mess room or same vehicle just as it would between my non NHS staff?
However household contacts, people you met down the pub etc are all proper contacts and do require you to isolate/test regardless of profession.
Out of interest, are you implying that a vaccinated person who has been exposed to a Covid case should not need to isolate?
You need to familiarise yourself with current guidance buddy.
You need to familiarise yourself with current guidance buddy.
It is indeed surprising that someone would have to ask that, but I guess in their defence the guidance/rules have changes so many times it is hard to keep up.
Yeah, agreed, that's why I followed it up with buddy, it's easy to miss out on the details sometimes, I think we're all a bit covid beaten really.
Drac – a workplace contact for nhs staff won’t count as a reason to isolate IF they were wearing PPE etc, although presumably does between colleagues in the mess room or same vehicle just as it would between my non NHS staff?
However household contacts, people you met down the pub etc are all proper contacts and do require you to isolate/test regardless of profession.
Yes that’s correct only in the work environment. No, mess rooms should still be socially distant and they should wear ppe in work vehicles. Car sharing to work then PPE is asked to be worn.
Drac,
How good do you think compliance with mess room etc stuff is? Are you saying that if two people share the same vehicle - so potentially in the same cab for 4 hrs out of a 12 hr shift? just disposable surgical masks and one tests positive the other is not required to test/isolate?
Do you think compliance is higher in NHS/Amb Sev and do you think staff will feel able to say - well no we both took our masks off in the cab when on our lunch? or there were six of us in the mess room - there’s no way we were all 1m apart ? I’m pretty sure in my private sector world people would say “of course we followed the rules” especially if the alternative is the risk of effectively 10 days in house arrest - quite a sanction for crowding over the paper to look at the crossword.