[Closed] A victory for responsible parents...

I suspect it maybe something to do with placing a higher value on education.

Tosh.

What's with the idea that education can only be had in school?

But you have to also legislate for the "unreasonable parents" who will take them for 2 weeks at a more critical time or will will take the proverbial.

The original concept was 'at the headteacher's discretion'. So an assessment was made for each pupil as to whether or not it would be detrimental. Seems the best way to handle it, to me.

Private schools effectively ban term time holidays and it seems virtually no-one tries to take them.

If you we're paying tens of thousands per year for private schooling you aren't going to take them out!

Private schools holidays are longer too, so they are on holiday when state schools aren't.

The original concept was 'at the headteacher's discretion'. So an assessment was made for each pupil as to whether or not it would be detrimental. Seems the best way to handle it, to me.

Yes, and I would add " or benficial" after "detrimental".

The original concept was 'at the headteacher's discretion'. So an assessment was made for each pupil as to whether or not it would be detrimental. Seems the best way to handle it, to me.

^ This - no-one is advocating a free-for-all approach, just a return to the previous system of discretion.

Yes, and I would add " or benficial" after "detrimental".

That's too subjective though - children from less well off background could get just as much benefit to their mental health from a week at the seaside as a well travelled child would get from a museum/adventure type trip.

HoratioHufnagel - Member
My OH is an overworked underpaid teacher too, and I'd imagine what most teacher's are concerned about is that the schools (which are now mostly acadamies, and desperate to meet ofstead targets to get funding) will insist teachers do lots of extra planning for each and every child that's going to be taken out of class.

Me too, until I told them to stick it up their...

Overworked and underpaid? Go and do something else!

Fair point.

My niece was allowed to come and visit us from the USA during term time. She visited plenty of historical sites and was given an assignment to write it up and present it to the class. Given that most of her classmates will probably never leave their state, it was probably highly beneficial.

no-one is advocating a free-for-all approach, just a return to the previous system of discretion

The precedent has now been set however to do it without permission. Which renders the headteachers decision useless.

What's with the idea that education can only be had in school?

The idea that kids 'learn' while on a holiday that consists of skiing or swimming in a pool/playing on the beach (which is what 90% of these holidays are)

Says who?

There are two things being discussed here:

1) Is it reasonable to let kids out of school for say family reasons or to have quality holiday that will be beneficial?

2) It it reasonable to let parents have complete control over whether or not their kids can take time off school?

3) Can a beach holiday be beneficial?

4) Can a skiing holiday be beneficial?

Re point 1 - my niece was only allowed to come *on condition* that she made it into an educational trip. Had she spent the whole time in the pool it would not have met those criteria.

Re point 4 - I never went on a skiing holiday as a kid, and never been as an adult. And I do feel I missed out on some good experiences. It's quite difficult to arrange skiing in school holidays, isn't it?

lunge - Member

Unless we're talking about a significant percentage of parents taking their kids out of class, but is that the case?

It's not now, no. But this recent ruling may well mean that is does become the case.

I'd find that hard to believe - prior to, maybe 3 years ago I think things were simpler - you just gave a note to Teacher - "little Timmy won't be in next week, we're going to Torremolinos" and Teacher said "lucky you" - the end. Classes were generally pretty full and kids disappearing off on hols tended to be on the last couple of days of the year and maybe a few days after Easter.

I don't know if other parents feel the same, but this is how I fell things have changed in the last couple of years:

Councils more than schools I think starting sending home these letters via the schools, "if your child has Polio you're only allowed to have them home for half a day" or words to that effect, I forget the exact advise but you needed to have a pretty ill kid on your hands for whoever was behind the letters to agree you could keep them home - quite rightly most Parents decided if they'd be the judge of when and how long their kids needed bed rest etc if they were ill.

Then there was the leave for bereavement - if someone died in your family, it didn't matter one jolt how close they were to them, or how devastated they were, if they weren't immediate family then they had to go to school, parents again decided "I'll be the judge of that"

Finally, it came to the Holidays - it doesn't matter if your kids had otherwise perfect attendance, or how many days your school took your kid away from their class to play cricket or rugby, book a holiday during term time and you'd pay a fine, if you don't pay you'll go to prison.

I think the most maddening thing was the clauses that meant the parents of kids who NEVER went to school completely avoided the fines.

The latest issue we have now with our local schools is a return to Victorian dress code for High School kids, blazers, hats etc - they're impractical, uncomfortable and bloody expensive - I asked for the rational behind it - "oh we looked at schools who have the best exam results and copied them" Well Shock horror if Eton and such didn't have the best results and oh they all were silly clothes too - but I reckon theirs more to their success than dressing like a Dickensian Swell.

A ski holiday introduces kids to a whole new world. An economy based around the joy to be had sliding down some snow up a mountain. Glaciers aren't just something in a geography book, they're what shaped the landscape and in some case what's under your feet - hanging valleys, u-shaped valleys, geology all around you. The language will probably be foreign, the culture different and it's all real without a screen or script.

Thanks for the holiday in the Alps, mum and dad. I learned to do all the things I saw people doing. Thanks for the trip to Brittany when we saw one of the first windsurfers, I learned to do that too. And thanks to the teacher who explained that with this new fangled EU thing I could live and work anywhere I chose.

Surely this just about cost saving rather than educational value?

The same holidays can be taken between terms.

Sky News: [i]Update - Department of Education source says "we will now look to change the law" after father won legal challenge over term-time holiday[/i]

enjoy it while you can peeps...

[edit] I've seen no argument that says children get more from a holiday taken in term time than the same holiday taken in the holidays. IT's an economic argument that people then try and justify,

The problem with replying on "at the headteacher's discretion" is that is will be inconsistent between schools and perhaps between pupils. So one head may interpret that it's a reasonable request and the head at their sisters school deems in unreasonable. Discretion is based on opinion, it's human so people won't be happy about it as it's won't be their opinion. So you then get requests for consistency, rules get brought in, and then people complain about a lack of common sense so the cycle continues.

The rules were strict but they were also fair and even. This will not be the case as soon as this is changed.

*taps sarcastometer. unexpectedly showing no signs, or it's bust

I know. My fingers bled as I typed it.

It's worse though as we have THM, Junkyard and Edukator agreeing with each other. It truly is Friday the 13th.

Thanks for the holiday in the Alps, mum and dad. I learned to do all the things I saw people doing. Thanks for the trip to Brittany when we saw one of the first windsurfers, I learned to do that too. And thanks to the teacher who explained that with this new fangled EU thing I could live and work anywhere I chose.

I'm agreeing with Molgrips, Drac.

A major problem is that the people making the laws have the capability to pay the extroniate premium holiday price in the school holidays...so those making the laws have little understanding of the dilemma poorer families have....

And I'm agreeing with edenvalleyboy.

Advantage of legislation is that the rules should be applied equally to all, the discretion should be removed from any changes.

Parents can't see that two different trips at two different times of the year may have different advantages and impacts. It's just "but the smiths took their children, why are we punished?" I had one kid come back from the school ski trip (grrrrr) only to be taken on a family holiday the next week. He was in an exam year and missed the prelim which would be critical if he needed to appeal. Only reason was cost. We had to hold the returning of papers and marks until he had sat and paper marked. The whole year suffered as a consequence.

I like to apply the "what if everyone did the same?" principal to situations like this. Well, if they did, summer holidays would start two weeks earlier, Christmas last two weeks longer, because no-one wants to go on a cold summer holiday or ski in slush (assumptions made to demonstrate the point). It's a shame there aren't 13 other weeks in the year when they could go. If most people took the last two weeks of July off, which parents seem to argue nothing much happens, to go on a cheaper holiday, what do you think would happen? Well we might as well start back two weeks earlier... And the problem starts again.
Parents who can't take time off in non-term time aside, it really does boil down to money. Using the argument that your kid is top of the class, well, that's about one in thirty then, applying the if we all do the same principle.
Teachers trying to decide which pupils can go on holiday will only ever come across as favouritism and favour the better educated parents who invest more of their free time in their children's education. It really isn't a school's or head's role to decide this, that's why we end up with one rule for everyone. Special cases aside, it does boil down to money and self-centeredness.

Glaciers aren't just something in a geography book, they're what shaped the landscape and in some case what's under your feet - hanging valleys, u-shaped valleys, geology all around you. The language will probably be foreign, the culture different and it's all real without a screen or script.

Oh and FYI stuff like glaciation doesn't feature in geography as much as it used to anymore.

Anyway, I blame Murdoch, keeps putting the price of Sky up so all those people with all the packages can't afford their Costa Whatever holiday.

Every time a parent comes into school and says "i'm taking my child on holiday for a week" the teacher(s) have to spend hours writing a weeks worth of lesson plans for that child, on top of all the regular planning, marking, goal setting, reporting and ensuring each of the 35 kids is either challenged or supported etc.

None of this happened in the Good Old Days, which is why no-one minded so much.

It's no good leaving it up to the kids/parents, because it's the school that loses out, so it's the school that needs to ensure all the work gets done.

This could all be sorted with more money for smaller class sizes or something, but no-one likes paying more tax, especially the Conservatives, which is why they'll just define the law more clearly and make it more illegal.

I've never seen a glacier in North Wales or Scotland. I've also no idea what's taught in geography but it's a real pity if kids aren't taught about glaciers and how melting the remaining ones will raise sea levels and drown large populated areas.

Surely this just about cost saving rather than educational value?

The same holidays can be taken between terms.

The only times Stoners Jr have ever been taken out of school early are for the TdF. This term, again, we have asked for, and been granted, permission to take the boys out of school for the last Thurs/Fri of term so as to be able to make it to the last day of the tour.

Fortunately our headmistress isn't some histrionic crybaby wailing about the huge disruption this will cause to the other 100 children in the school and damning them all to a failed education.

drown large populated areas.

*fingers crossed it's the North*

I've never seen a glacier in North Wales or Scotland.

Fortunately our headmistress isn't some histrionic crybaby wailing about the huge disruption this will cause to the other 100 children in the school and damning them all to a failed education.

🙂

the dilemma poorer families have....

Can I afford this holiday?

No

Better find one I can afford then. Like buying a tent.

As dilemmas go, it's not ****ing rocket science.

I understand that for some kids, missing some time off school isn't a problem, but the sense of entitlement some people seem to have about a holiday does grate sometimes.

How does this one work then?...

In a few weeks time my daughter is going on a French exchange trip, and only 5% of her Y8 pupils are going. During that week away she will miss a weeks worth of national curriculum work. Will she...

a) be losing out terribly on a weeks worth of normal school work to be forever damaged by this loss. And the remaining 95% of her year will now be 1 week ahead of her.
b) benefit from learning about about another country, their ways, culture, family life and their schools.

There will be no lessons during her trip, but I know which she'll gain a lot more from.

An exchange trip, as in a proper exchange where your kids will be handed over to French families. I'm impressed, Muffin-man. The real exchanges Madame and her colleagues used to organise all fell through because British parents were worried that the French families would be sex fiends, irresponsible etc.. She still organises trips but they rely on paid host families In Brighton, Chatham etc.

How does this one work then?...

In a few weeks time my daughter is going on a French exchange trip, and only 5% of her Y8 pupils are going. During that week away she will miss a weeks worth of national curriculum work. Will she...

Well according to this thread [b]you[/b] are:

1) An irresponsible parent
2) Possible a baby boomer
3) Part of the me, me, me generation
4) Part of the "Me, Myself, I" generation
5) Have no respect for the 'social contract'
6) very selfish
7) guilty of "dumping your ignorant and disruptive children back in the classroom"
8) disrespectful to teachers
9) guaranteeing your children will be academically behind and can never catch up
10) jeopardising your children's careers and future

I hope you feel very very guilty.....

Could a lot of this issue be resolved by some careful planning and spreading of school holidays?

Iirc, there was a proposal 10+ years ago for a five term year with more regular breaks and no daft long summer holiday. If planned properly, it meant every local authority had Christmas week and one more 'shared' (but not simultaneously) to allow visiting family, but that holidays were spread across something like 8 months of the year.

Unsurprisingly, it never got past local traditional holiday dates and the churches insistence on Easter being a moveable feast.

The same holidays can be taken between terms.

Well not really, cos everyone can't go in the same week. There aren't enough hotels/campsites/chalets, are there?

There doesnt have to be enough hotels/campsites/chalets molgrips.

You just need a mechanism for allocating them based on the importance an individual places on the the holiday. I don't know, some kind of market based system would work...
...oh...wait...

Dunno if anyone has mentioned it yet, but all that will now happen is that the government will re-write law. It was the definition of 'regular' attendence that got this bloke off.

Disappointed they may be at the High Court ruling in the Jon Platt term-time holiday case but ministers say they will now look to change the legislation.

However, they maintain the policy to reduce school absence is "clear and correct" and they also plan to strengthen the statutory guidance on the issue to schools and local authorities.

From the beeb

So how about if your child doesn't attend (secondary) school for a week but goes off to an outward bound centre instead & learns nothing that's on the school curriculum?

At 14 yrs old.

I understand that for some kids, missing some time off school isn't a problem, but the sense of entitlement some people seem to have about a holiday does grate sometimes.

The entitlement to spend time with kids rates pretty highly for me, if I choose to do that whilst taking them away is a bonus.

What grates is the sense that this is all about wanting to take the kids to Barbados rather than Bamburgh.

Every time a parent comes into school and says "i'm taking my child on holiday for a week" the teacher(s) have to spend hours writing a weeks worth of lesson plans for that child, on top of all the regular planning, marking, goal setting, reporting and ensuring each of the 35 kids is either challenged or supported etc.

Pfft, I don't write lesson plans for the students that are in the room so I'm not going to write them for the kids missing lesson because they're on holiday. They can print out the work they missed and figure it out for themselves.

An exchange trip, as in a proper exchange where your kids will be handed over to French families

Yes.

The trip was put forward at the start of the school year last September. Initially she wasn't confident enough to do it, but when it was the French schools turn to come over here last October our school were short of a family to house one of the girls as they were sending more than we were. My daughter said we'll take her! And since she the French girl stayed at our house she's been really looking forward to the return trip.

I think the worries of British parents is the reason so few are going though, which is a real shame.

So how about if your child doesn't attend (secondary) school for a week but goes off to an outward bound centre instead & learns nothing that's on the school curriculum?

At 14 yrs old.

Two thoughts.

If school is only about a formal curriculum of maths and English etc, then you are right to suggest they should stay in school. However school to most of us is much, much more. And learning is not confined to low grade admin tasks, sat at a desk.

If the school uses a provider who doesn't tie in huge amounts of the week to formal curriculum, as well as much wider social skills, confidence, problem solving, working with others, care for the environment etc, then they need to find a new provider.

So how about if your child doesn't attend (secondary) school for a week but goes off to an outward bound centre instead & learns nothing that's on the school curriculum?
At 14 yrs old.

That was me & some classmates in 1971, did Howtown twice & Thurston on Coniston once. Learned more & enjoyed it a lot more than school (even though it was provided by our school)
But is it any different from taking your kids 'out of school'?
Is confuddled!

I've posted this on similar threads before: my parents are in the holiday trade and take 70% of there income during the 6 weeks of the summer holidays and worked 6 days a week during it. They could not afford to take us abroad for winte sun so we would have never have had a family holiday under the current rules.
Personally I think that a child should get 2 weeks to take a year outside of normal holidays until upper secondary.
****less parents won't care regardless of the rules so why punish others.

I've never seen a glacier in North Wales or Scotland.

And for those that can't there's now another option.