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In these days of performance related pay I have to ensure that my classes achieve in line with national expectations. Couple of kids bugger off on holiday at the wrong time and I might not get my pay progression. One year 11 in my class went on holiday for two weeks just after easter. It was a real struggle to get him to finish his coursework in time for submission and he missed the last bit of his final unit a month before his exam....
If we scrapped mental ideas like SATs in favour of more civilised systems like PYP and baccalaureate we wouldn't need to concern ourselves with this nonsense
I think that a child should get 2 weeks to take a year
Its a 38 week year so each week you will have about 1.5 children off . You really think this wont impact on learning outcomes?
Its has a severe impact on learning for the entire class that the parents just dont seem to grasp or care - whilst moaning at the "****less parents" when they are those parents.
A major problem is that the people making the laws have the capability to pay the extroniate premium holiday price in the school holidays...so those making the laws have little understanding of the dilemma poorer families have....
A holiday to Disneyland (or even somewhere a plane trip away) is not a right. Parents should book the holidays that they can afford, not the holidays that they want.
When I was younger, we had little money and our holidays (not in term time) were affordable ones. Often under canvas. Now I have children of my own, we are better off than my parents were so the holidays are nicer but we still work to the constraint of what we can afford.
Some segments of society seem to have lost sight of living within your means and now want to live within their desires (whether they have the money or now).
Sending your child to school is entirely optional. There is no law mandating it. If you choose to send your child to school, then they should attend school and abide by the rules. If you do not like those rules, you can always home school them.
Its has a severe impact on learning for the entire class
you keep saying that, and I'm going to start calling it a junkyfact, but would like to see some data on it.
It's more than a victory for responsible parents.. it's a small victory for society.
It really doesn't do the 'education system' any favours when it's suggested that the combination of parents/class teacher/year head/head teacher and child cannot make an EDUCATED decision on such matters.
What is this 'education' we are being fed if we can't make such simple decisions?
In these days of performance related pay I have to ensure that my classes achieve in line with national expectations
Which is an unrealistic objective given that kids from different backgrounds will not have identical performance or respond in the same way to the same efforts on the part of a teacher. If you teach in a school in a social dumping ground estate you can't be expected to get the kids to produce the same results as an area which always has (and probably always will) produced high performing kids.
I had five kids in one of my classes, they were introduced to me by my head of department as "four car thieves and a prostitute". If they only did minor damage to the teaching facilities whilst under my supervision it was considered a victory. If I'd ever got them to write or read anything at all it would have been an exploit (I didn't).
Stoner - Member
Its has a severe impact on learning for the entire class
you keep saying that, and I'm going to start etc...
Well,yesterday my class of 15yo historians were handed a sheet on Nazi control as they came in. Each had one fact they had to rewrite in their own words. They then had to fill in the rest of the facts on a give and take basis,and importantly; had to put the information on their sheet in their own words. If I had 5 pupils who had gone on holiday two weeks before the end,or at the beginning of term because it is cheaper,then I could not do this.This was then reinforced by images on the white board they had to link to the different topics and a part paper question. Maybe you could explain to me how your child will replicate all that? And where does the blame lie if there is a question on Nazi Control in the final paper and they cant answer it?
Got bored and gave up.
Couple of thoughts though:
Many people have still took their kids out in term time and either pretended that they're sick, or just chanced the fine. I don't believe anything will change. We took out two to Barcelona for four days at the beginning of September, were honest with the school, didn't get a fine, and so far nobody has suffered. (My kids are 9 and 6). Would I do it during SATS, GCSE? Probably not. Responsible parents will remain responsible. Likewise those that don't give a ****, still won't.
Interestingly. What happens at school during the school ski trip? Who suffers then? I know one local school where the kids who don't go come off the normal timetable. Who is that being fair to? The kids whose parents can afford a ski trip?
Well,yesterday my class of 15yo historians were handed a sheet on Nazi control as they came in. Each had one fact they had to rewrite in their own words. They then had to fill in the rest of the facts on a give and take basis,and importantly; had to put the information on their sheet in their own words. If I had 5 pupils who had gone on holiday two weeks before the end,or at the beginning of term because it is cheaper,then I could not do this.This was then reinforced by images on the white board they had to link to the different topics and a part paper question. Maybe you could explain to me how your child will replicate all that? And where does the blame lie if there is a question on Nazi Control in the final paper and they cant answer it?
Hand outs and the white board? Did you have to nip in to the store cupboard to help the secretary, sir? Sir?
🙂
you keep saying that, and I'm going to start calling it a junkyfact, but would like to see some data on it
Jesus wept
I just checked and apparently there is absolutely no relationship between attendance at school and educational outcomes
Not being there will literally have no impact on your learning...stoner says so and he knows about education because well he has children so there,
This is so self evidently true it beggars belief that I am being asked to prove it 😯
Lets start with the Tory press and work our way our then shall we
meaning just an extra week off a year for a family holiday could make the critical difference.
JUst for you a graph
[img] 
[/img]
at in general the higher the percentage of sessions missed across the key stage, the lower the likely level of attainment at the end of KS4. Specifically, pupils with no absence are 1.5 times more likely to achieve 5+ GCSEs A*-C or equivalent and 2.8 times more likely to achieve 5+ GCSEs A*-C or equivalent including English and mathematics than pupils missing 15-20 per cent of KS4 lessons. The difference in
achievement is also evident with the English Baccalaureate, where pupils with no absence are around 10.2 times more likely to achieve the English Baccalaureate than pupils missing 15-20 per cent of KS4 lessons.
The relationship between absence and KS4 attainment remained similar over the past five academic years.
[b] you cannot teach someone who is not there
I cannot believe anyone actually required this explaining to them.[/b]
Do you need more?
for the entire class
🙄
I am well aware of the data behind individual achievement and attendance across the population. But you are one of a number that have made a link between an individual's non-attendance and the performance of the rest of the class. You have not provided any evidence that there is that link.
Tell you what teach a class for one week on something all attend.
Teach a class and each day two folk dont attend - let me know which class covers the most work will you and which ones will perform the best and know the most.
It is amusing watching STW debates when you know something and seeing how much if our debates are just empty vessels making the most noise - please try and see when its you.
I defer entirely to parents with no educational expertise as well you are the experts and you know best ...just like i do with your area of expertise...you are not forgiven 😉
I am well aware of the data behind individual achievement and attendance across the population. But you are one of a number that have made a link between an individual's non-attendance and the performance of the rest of the class. You have not provided any evidence that there is that link.
AAMOI how would one design an experiment to gather such evidence?
so you're sticking by your "junkyfact", with absolutely no evidence to back it up? Not even a teeny, tiny, figleaf of an anecdote in there for us?
DrJ - why would I need to design such an experiment? I'm not the one that's pulled a spurious hypothesis out of thin air in an attempt to collectivise an individual's choice!
The refuge of collectivism is to stretch the appearance of harm created by an individual. There is no harm, there is only ideological disagreement.
"so you're sticking by your "junkyfact", with absolutely no evidence to back it up?"
He's posted the evidence.
He's posted the evidence.
where?
No, [b]outofbreath[/b], you've missed what's going on here. [b]Stoner[/b] is reacting to a very specific claim of [b]Junkyard[/b], that claim being that taking kids out of class affects the learning outcome for [i]the whole class[/i]. It's a way of being technically right without acknowledging the broader point, that point being that evidence suggests that taking kids out of class affects the learning outcome for [i]those kids in particular[/i].
I think it shows poor form, particularly with the liberal application of one of these oh-so-quaint portmanteaus that seem [i]de rigueur[/i] these days. #Junkyfact indeed.
So disenfranchised kids who are under performing go to school less and therefore there's a statistical link between low attendance and poor performance. But which came first, the chicken or the egg?
What we need is a statistical analysis which links performance and the number of weeks taken for in-term holidays rather than truancy/illness, Junkyard.
As for the aptly chosen Nazi example just telling absent kids to catch up from their mates solves the problem for the teacher.
Why would I need the design such an experiment? I'm not the one that's pulled a spurious hypothesis out of thin air in an attempt to collectivise an individual's choice!
You don't, of course. However, the absence of evidence in the form of a convenient statistically significant controlled experiment does not prove that the hypothesis is false.
In fact it would seem clear that if the absentee imposes work on the teacher, however small an amount, then it would of necessity have a negative impact on the class. Whether you see that as being no big deal or not is another matter.
I just used to give an A4 sheet with the topic, how to solve it and some questions to see if they could do it.
Any problems, see me at lunch for a few minutes to guide you through it.
Most kids couldn't remember the topics at the beginning of the year if they have not revised anyway.
If that's all you taught in a week it was hardly worth showing up to work.
so you're sticking by your "junkyfact", with absolutely no evidence to back it up?
Its so self evidently true that i am surprised you ask for evidence.
Tell you what teach a class for one week on something all attend.
Teach a class and each day two folk dont attend - let me know which class covers the most work will you and which ones will perform the best and know the most.
There is no way you dont know the answer hence why you ignored it completely, amusing, and one has to try very hard to not see this obvious point. I am sure you will continue to manage this with spectacular ease .
Edukator the facts are for absence they make no distinction as to the reason for absence.
Calling it a junkyfact is amusing though but such hashtags should be reserved for something that is palpably false rather than "unproven". I think you can , if you wish, claim it unproven for the reasons Dr J notes - we cannot really do controlled studies for this,
However i am surprised that you think its contentious so again
Tell you what teach a class for one week on something all attend.
Teach a class and each day two folk dont attend - let me know which class covers the most work will you and which ones will perform the best and know the most.
Its really not hard to work out the answer to this.
Keeping my head down here as we've just received a 'yes' to take our lad out of school to go away next week..a week before half term...
Our issue was that I can't ever get locum cover during half term/holidays (local locum shortage cripples us at the best of times), and I haven't taken any leave for 6 months...
Yes, the holiday is cheaper, but it was that or nothing....
He'll be ok...
DrP
He'll be ok...
Yep, but will you cope with the shame of being such a selfish, me, me, etc etc?
it would seem clear that if the absentee imposes work on the teacher, however small an amount, then it would of necessity have a negative impact on the class.
again also self evidently true so not sure why you are struggling so much to accept this.
Do I need to prove that as well 😕
Footflaps..I was on the verge of going postal...so this is a MUCH better alternative 😉
DrP
so this is a MUCH better alternative
Selfish and shameless 😉
The STW mob will have burnt down your practice by the time you get back!
Its has a severe impact on learning for the entire class..
This may be so (yet to see evidence of this produced) but your attitude seems to echo the issues within formal state-provided education with regards to the education needs of the individual.
The rush to meet targets/levels is all well and good, and all manner of efforts are thrown at those who struggle to meet their's, but what about those who exceed them by some margin?
My daughter is often bored in her lessons because, even with the anchor of my genetics, she is an outstanding pupil, being very intelligent and self-motivated (she is learning Japanese and Sociology outside of school).
Whilst I understand the 'herd teaching' theory you appear to be espousing, does it mean that my daughter (who is rapidly becoming tired of state-provided education due to its lack of challenges) is merely a teaching tool under your theory? That her mere presence, regardless of her individual learning needs, assists the teaching of the less able? If this is so, what happens when she becomes weary of lack of challenge and becomes disruptive? How will that affect the learning of others within her class?
As it is, my wife (who is a teacher) and I have no qualms with removing her from school during term-time for holidays (most recently to the US for a family wedding), because I know her education needs are met more by our's and her efforts beyond what the school can provide. Also we're not so keen for her to remain in school purely to make up the numbers, whilst perhaps building up resentment towards the system.
As an aside, the school she is at is an excellent school. We just understand the limitations of the current education system and, given they've agreed to all our in-term holiday requests, so must they.
evidence suggests that taking kids out of class affects the learning outcome for those kids in particular.
And that's is of my own concern, to manage/mitigate as I see fit. Not anyone else's.
Falsely projecting the harm onto others is certainly NOT self evident.
Afterall, I can just as easily show that class achievement improves with smaller class sizes as a teacher has more time to dedicate to each other pupil...so, absentees from class tends to greater class achievement! Genius! We can both keep on making up "self evident" facts all day long if you like. Insistence is not the same as evidence.
Anyway, on a more philosophical bent: I've been consistent in my liberalist/small-state point of view here. Im not sure how Drac's appearance on my side of the fence squares up with his politic though. And more to the point, how on earth did we end up with a political axis of [s]evil[/s], [s]misfits[/s], disparates such as Junky, THM and Edukator preaching for the [s]assimilation of the borg[/s] state absorption of our children?
you cannot teach someone who is not there
Sceptical of Junkyard's graph. Strikes me a lot of information is being lost by graphing that days set. In other words, it does not factor in the reasons for absence.
Err, I've been arguing the opposite Stoner. First Drac, now you. Could someone point me to the post where someone hacked my login and posted something against parents being able to take kids out of school for a holiday.
my apologies, fellow libertarian!
how on earth did we end up with a political axis of evil, misfits, disparates such as Junky, THM and Edukator preaching for the assimilation of the borg state absorption of our children?
😀
Well that is not what I am preaching but amused at the point and the thread.
what about those who exceed them by some margin?
Well there is gifted and talented but yes the one size fits all is not perfect for all. The "problem" is, and no offence meant as everyone loves their own kids more than some other kids and this is not a bad thing, all parents only GAS about what education does for their child. However the teacher has to care about the best outcomes for all.
A deep pedagogical debate is unlikely to happen on STW but essentially the teacher needs to manage your daughter and try to make sure she is also stretched. I am not sure what you think my theory is beyond you need to be there to learn. Its as true for your daughter as for any other child. The only real difference is your daughter could either learn quicker and do less hours or learn more if pushed.She still needs to be there though. Hardly a controversial view.
The reality is she will be bored for a large portion of her schooling if she is in advance of her peers. I encourage my eldest to help those least able in his class when he has finished He likes helping folk. I am not sure it will last though but who knows.
Sceptical of Junkyard's graph.
Its not mine and it as just a nice Google hit I have no idea of actual source or content
Falsely projecting the harm onto others is certainly NOT self evident.
It is hence why you are still refusing to answer the question or the one from Dr J
Afterall, I can just as easily show that class achievement improves with smaller class sizes
Its not quite as linear or as universally true as that and that one i can evidence. Its an oft stated reason by those not in education though* NO offence but its not really true that point.
as a teacher has more time to dedicate to each other pupil...so, absentees from class tends to greater class achievement! Genius!
Except the person not there is still in the class and still part of the class achievement. That its terrible on every level
.We can both keep on making up "self evident" facts all day long if you like
Yes but mine make sense and you cannot negate them. Yours have neither of these qualities. 😛
how on earth did we end up with a political axis of [s]evil, misfits[/s], disparates such as Junky, THM and Edukator preaching for [s]the assimilation of the borg state[/s] absorption of our children?
Education and the EU make for some strange bed fellows I grant you that 😆
I think , though not sure, THM and i agree on Utility in the philosphical sense - we also agree on grammar schools - though not quite fully.
I do get your point and its one of those. My kids do ok i could remove them and it have limited impact. However you cannot have every child out for two weeks, which will include those that struggle the most anyway, and think this wont impact on what can be taught TO ALL as the teacher will be spending time , that could be done teaching everyone, on teaching the absentee one to catch up or preparing work for them to do when away. I just dont see how you cannot accept that point. Its pretty basic stuff IMHO
You might as well argue you could build a house just as quickly and well if some of the folk who are meant to be on site in your 38 week period can just take two weeks off whenever they feel like it as it wont have any impact on the overall outcome. Its just so obviously false i cannot believe you want "science" to prove it to you,
*The evidence base on the link between class size and attainment, taken as a whole,finds that a smaller class size has a positive impact on attainment and behaviour in the early years of school, but this effect tends to be small and diminishes after a few years.The most recent research supports this.
^ good paper. contents absorbed.
Research on parental opinion on class size in 1996 found that 96% of parents believed
that the number of children in a class affects the quality of teaching and learning. In the
same study [b]teachers and head teachers were also found to consider class size to be
an important issue.[/b]
Dont tell me the pros fell foul of the same assumption?
You still cant evidence class harm from absenteeism though 😉
😆
I also cannot prove that if i have twins and i educate one and dont educate the other [ ethics would prevent this and then i would need replication anyway] that the educated one will be the brighter.
I Guess the outcome of that will have to forever remain a mystery to us to 😉
Falsely projecting the harm onto others is certainly NOT self evident.
You do seem to be struggling with this concept*. Not sure why.
To take it out of the emotive context a little I'll run this one by you and see what you think.
Are you aware of what is going on with A level at the moment? We are moving from module courses to linear. Modular means AS exams to sit at the end of 6.1 and linear means all the exams are at the end of 6.2. The new linear courses are a little more content heavy acknowledging the fact you are not pausing half way through to revise for a bunch of exams - you are expected to be teaching proper through the summer of 6.1. Only snag is Gove in all his ****tery decreed that different subjects will change over in different academic years. This is the first year of the shitfest and AS exams start on Monday. Some kids are doing all modular subjects, some all linear and most a combination of the two. In an attempt to navigate this abomination most schools are not pausing for exam leave and are teaching straight through exam season with kids missing the day of and the day before each exam but otherwise getting on with normal lessons. For the next 4 weeks I'm not going to have a single unaffected class. Every class will have a sizable minority missing. I'm meant to carry on regardless....but I'm not going to. How can I introduce a new, complex concept from which all subsequent work depends and then build upon it next lesson if I know a bunch of students will be missing; then the same the next lesson and the next for 4 weeks. So we are going off on a tangent and doing some 'nice to have' shizzle and recovering old areas to check for understanding.
Fortunately this cluster**** is only going to last 3 years until all subjects have switched across but in my opinion based on 18 years of teaching this is what it would be like every summer if all entitled self-orientated parents did what they please only thinking about their little darling and not comprehending the big picture. If you want bespoke and to call all the shots, go down the homeschooling route.
*I hear your clamour for research data. I'm not going trawling for you because, to be frank, I can't be arsed - I've done this job long enough to know what it's like to convince myself and if you are persuaded or not doesn't bother me that much. I do know that Chichester university's education dept have some PHD bod working on something akin to this but know no more than that at the moment.
[quote=the-muffin-man ]
The original concept was 'at the headteacher's discretion'. So an assessment was made for each pupil as to whether or not it would be detrimental. Seems the best way to handle it, to me.
^ This - no-one is advocating a free-for-all approach, just a return to the previous system of discretion.
I wonder what the head teacher would have to say about a proposed trip to Disney World in term time (for a pupil who had already been taken out of school for a week)? Ah, actually we know, the school didn't give permission.
I tend to agree that is the best solution (and clearly it does still happen, given Stoner's experience and I'm also aware that some kids at our school have got permission for the odd day or two out of school). The thing is, for the case which went to court, the school hadn't given permission - so the court ruling isn't in favour at all of headteachers making the decisions. In fact the court ruling was made on the basis of a small technical legal point - on which point the government says it will change the law. That's the way with court rulings - no comment or ruling was made on the broader issues.
Of course the pupils in our school (and the one Stoner's kids go to AFAIK) are mostly from families who care about education. So not only are the parents less likely to ask to take a holiday which will have a significant impact on the education of their kids (or impact on the education of the class as a whole), they're also likely to take steps to mitigate any impact on their education (which will also minimise any disruption to the rest of the class). The schools are also well run and know their kids so are well aware of which kids a couple of days out won't be a problem for. The trouble is, not all schools are like that, so I can see how there can be problems with headteacher discretion.
Convert - you teach a-level. Do you think the situation is different earlier in schooling? Genuine question.
The problem with discretion is that it often amounts to discrimination.
How about a few simple rules for all:
One week a year no questions asked. A second week with a pedagogical justification.
No obligation on teaching staff to do anything whatsoever to help students catch up with worked missed during parent-requested absence.
Informal help to catch up between students encouraged but neither formalised nor imposed.
The results of students for whom teachers have not been given their full support for absence will not count towards appraisals of teachers.
Convert - you teach a-level. Do you think the situation is different earlier in schooling? Genuine question.
I think I have said this before on similar threads, but yes I do think there is a difference. Where the line is I'm not sure; maybe the primary/secondary divide, maybe a little earlier. Irrespective of age the disruption to the whole class's momentum still stands though. I still think in this scenario the potential of the whole should be put ahead of the convenience of the individual unless there is a genuine need.
Maybe I'm bias though and just value what I know about more and it should all be treated equally.
Edit...
For the sake of the pedantic arguements...
[url= http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1080/01411920701492191/abstract ]from British Educational Research Journal 'Bunking off" the impact of truancy on pupils and teachers.[/url]
You will require a lgin to gain acces, but here is the abstract...
There is widespread interest in the impact of unauthorised absence on pupil attainment, links with disaffection, exclusion from school and criminality. However, little is heard about what those who take unauthorised absence from school think that the effect has been on them; nor do we hear the voices of other pupils and their teachers. This article presents evidence from a one-year study of absence in seven local authorities in England funded by the Department for Education and Skills. It defines ‘truancy’, explores some issues from existing literature on pupil non-attendance, and presents evidence to show the impact that absence from school has on truants, other pupils and teachers. Finally, it suggests that although the greatest impact is on the academic and socio-psychological development of persistent absentees, the attitudes and learning of other pupils and the workload and morale of teachers are also affected.
IN YOUR FACE STONER IN YOUR FACE
😆
Who knew eh who knew 😉
Fos sake of clarity tongue in cheek banter