[Closed] 2nd EU Referendum Petition.....

As if there never has been a political U-turns before...

it is pretty stupid to make a mistake and crash on regardless ecause someone might thnk you are a spineless moron...

..in fact anyone that does not admit to being a fool and making a complete pigs ear out of something and does not attempt to fix the situation is probably the biggest coward as well as a true fool.

Yep telling the truth and all that

ah you and Jamby.... bored by facts

There has been a suspiciously uniform number of signatures being added to petition over each minute.

Whilst there was a consensus to leave the EU, there is absolutely no consensus on what next. If we join the EEA, we have technically left, but still have freedom of movement and free trade, but pay more money - how is that possible a good decision for anyone, leave or remain??

There need to be FOUR options
1. Remain
2. Leave - join the EEA (Norway)
3. Leave - set up bilateral agreements (Canada)
4. Leave - just use WTO.

It was never about facts. It was about emotion and freedom from slavery, oppression and being sent to the gulag or something.

And foreigners. Mostly foreigners. And some people seemed to blame Muslim refugees from the Middle East

Intellectuals and experts were, of course,"wrong" -by definition.....

Throughout history angry poor people have tried to get rid of the "guilty" minority and heretics and Intellectuals, aided by dodgy people who offered solutions, but weren't necessarily their friends.

History repeats itself.

What happens if we have a second referendum, and we still have a majority in favour of leaving, however small, wrong or misguided?

Will those of us who want to remain get a third go? Best of 5?

BBC - Second EU referendum petition investigated for fraud. You can't make this stuff up, although some people will go to any lengths it seems! 😯

I don't like decision to leave, but the democratic process WAS the referendum.

Not strictly true. The democratic process now involves the result of this advisory referendum being debated in parliament. Parliament has to act in the best interests of the country. Quite what those are is anyone's guess, but I think it's safe to say that they are not bound to simply ratify a result that over 500 of them disagree with.

Well, even if 3.1 million of the signatories are fraudulent, the petition still has enough to get debated by parliament.
Still lovin' the fact that it was set up by a Leave campaigner. Talk about a potentially sore loser!!!

but I think it's safe to say that they are not bound to simply ratify a result that over 500 of them disagree

See this is where politics has gone wrong for me, they are public servants, a referendum was held, it doesn't matter if they like the result or not, they are duty bound to do as the electorate asks.....basically how it should work is you say "jump" and your MP replies "how high".....things have become twisted in recent years where politicians now think they're something special, they aren't and you don't need any qualifications to be an MP, says it all really.

See this is where politics has gone wrong for me, they are public servants, a referendum was held, it doesn't matter if they like the result or not, they are duty bound to do as the electorate asks.....basically how it should work is you say "jump" and your MP replies "how high".....things have become twisted in recent years where politicians now think they're something special, they aren't and you don't need any qualifications to be an MP, says it all really.

I hope it does get debated in parliament then the children can experience disappointment all over again. It's like training a puppy. It must be embarrassing for the remainers who have accepted the result with dignity.

See this is where politics has gone wrong for me, they are public servants

And they have a job to do, which is to act in the best interests of the country.

We could have a referendum on cutting taxes to 0% while simultaneously handing out free booze on Fridays and it would probably win. Frankly, such a motion wouldn't be much more damaging than the one we've just had, and at least we could all drown our sorrows when it went Pete Tongue.

Anyway, this is sovereign parliamentary democracy in action. I thought that was one of the things Vote Leave were after, no?

Could this bring Anarchy to our streets?

I hope it does get debated in parliament then the children can experience disappointment all over again. It's like training a puppy. It must be embarrassing for the remainers who have accepted the result with dignity

I could take the rather selfish view that I will enjoy watching you all greatly regret this over the next few years while I sit pretty in Oz. I haven't because my friends and family in the UK deserve better than that. But, unless this situation is un****ed very quickly, that will be about the only option I have. Sadly it's not one on offer to most of you when you do eventually come to your senses. As discussed previously, we have rather strict borders over here...

We elect MPs on the basis that they are the ones best placed to decide on issues,

That's a joke, a huge number of MPs have left university and known nothing but how to be a researcher or runner for a particular party, then brown nose a job as an assistant to an existing MP, then get parachuted into a safe seat....that kind of person is not best placed to decide on the country's issues.

Parliament should be full of ex servicemen, ex coppers, small business owners, retired DRs, the odd lawyer, union reps who have moved up from the shop floor, a couple of wealthy entrepreneurs etc etc....basically a mixed bag of people with life experience.

It's a big leap from mass bed-wetting to anarchy on the streets. Mind you that scruffy **** Geldof is good at mobilising people, so maybe.

Parliament should be full of ex servicemen, ex coppers, small business owners, retired DRs, the odd lawyer, union reps who have moved up from the shop floor, a couple of wealthy entrepreneurs etc etc....basically a mixed bag of people with life experience.

[url= https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/26/an-astute-online-comment-has-many-wondering-whether-brexit-may-ever-happen/?tid=sm_tw ]washington post[/url]

So who is "brave" enough to pull the trigger?

So elect them.

Would love to, trouble is the usual candidates from all parties consist of a grey list of late 20s/early 30s nominees whose profiles reads: studied PPE at Ox-Bridge, worked for the last 10 yrs for <insert party>, now standing for election in wherever....great, inspiring stuff.

Remember when everyone was chuffed to bits about Sarah Tether (remember her?!) being elected?....i just remember thinking what the hell has a 29 yr old got to offer parliament or the country!?....her background?....education and then a selection of non jobs as a 'policy advisor' for a number of organisations before contesting elections....absolute nonsense.
It's Hobson's choice these days when voting.

So why are you so keen (assuming that you voted leave) to give the power back to these people at the cost of wrecking the country?

Because I simply don't believe in the EU as a legal entity or a superstate....as a free trade bloc I have no problem, if it had remained simply that then I'd probably have voted to stay....but various individuals and countries have been on a power grab for years and morphed it into a corrupt behemoth they can preside over with lovely salaries, pensions, allowances etc...

But you don't appear to believe in the UK political establishment either? So why wreck everything else to leave one unsatisfactory political entity for another?

ex servicemen, ex coppers, small business owners

grantway - Member
Could this bring Anarchy to our streets?

Well apparently, and wait until the dust has settled for confirmation, leavers are already acting to the stereotype they all claim is nothing to do with them.

Conservative MP for Chelsea and Fulham Greg Hands earlier reported on Twitter that the Polish Social and Cultural Association has been graffitied with "go home".

Also reports of Europeans being abused in the street.

#NotAVictoryForRacists

[quote=deviant ]That's a joke, a huge number of MPs have left university and known nothing but how to be a researcher or runner for a particular party, then brown nose a job as an assistant to an existing MP, then get parachuted into a safe seat....that kind of person is not best placed to decide on the country's issues.

I'm no big fan of the career politician, and like you would rather see people with more experience of life...

But, how do you think they are at taking decisions compared to (from a selection of people I've seen interviewed who I suspect are representative of much larger numbers)
- the person who voted Leave because they didn't think their vote mattered and are disappointed that Leave won
- the chap who was just voting for change because "it can't get any worse"
- the girl who thought it meant England wouldn't be in the football Euros

who are the people who've actually taken this decision for us.

[quote=igm ]Also reports of Europeans being abused in the street.

See this is where politics has gone wrong for me, they are public servants, a referendum was held, it doesn't matter if they like the result or not, they are duty bound to do as the electorate asks.....basically how it should work is you say "jump" and your MP replies "how high".....things have become twisted in recent years where politicians now think they're something special, they aren't and you don't need any qualifications to be an MP, says it all really.

For the hard of understanding here is a summary of the will of th people
37% Leave
36% Remain
28% No Vote
On that basis if 37% of the politicians would like to take a leave vote, 36 a remain and 28 decide on the day we can have the vote.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales

I'm not sure where I am with Brexit at the moment...

The anger on social media and reports of abuse on the streets of the U.K. are depressing.

One of my own FB posts had triggered a feud within my wife's family. Within my own wider family it's going to come down to falling out with people I've known and felt close to for 40+ years, or shutting up and getting on with it.

But what should democracy mean?
17 million people have made a choice I don't agree with. That is the democratic will of the people, so should be taken forward by Government.

On the other hand, an unknown proportion of that 17 million have taken the EUref as a green light to express views that I cannot sign up to and that are detrimental to this Country - not just the economic health, but the very fabric of society

My BIL shared the crying toddler photo. A few clicks showed that he had shared it from someone closely linked with the EDL - an account with diabolical neo-Nazi views and a photo of Jo Cox's murderer wearing a Nazi slogan t shirt and giving a Hitler salute.

I don't believe that my BIL is a racist bigot, but my comments (made in heat of the moment anger) asked whether he was. This is how the far right have infiltrated the mainstream and subverted rational thinking.

For my own family, I stand back in genuine disbelief as 20&30 Somethings in wider FB friendship groups are openly talking about going back to pounds & ounces and pounds, shillings & pence - "Fwk the EU"

So - suck it up and move on as many people are sneeringly telling us we have to?

Or get more involved in campaigning / politics and try to fight for all that's been achieved over the last 20 years?

One view represents censorship. The other represents DEMOCRACY

And the debate will come down to who we wish to vote us into power next do we satisfy the university educated whiners who have found out they can't get their own way by stamping their feet, or the old people who according to them never did anything for the countrynes who worked all their lives as per the system
and now have ****ed us all, ,oh hell you know them actually fought in the war.

So from a Demcratic society to a Dictatorship voting system
We might has well trade and become a part of China

are you really claiming the majoroty of pensioners fought in the war?

the man issue with thsi is
1) most pensioners are women
2) To have fought in the war - assuming, generously 18 on 1945, one would have to be at least 78

Basically your point is some jingoistic flag waiving hyperbolic BS..thats basically what got us in the mess in the first place

patriotic thick folk full of pride and bereft of facts

do we satisfy the university educated whiners who have found out they can't get their own way by stamping their feet

Actually what they've found out is that bare-faced lies can work surprisingly well.

Us university whiners should probably do more of it rather than relying on reason.

oh hell you know them actually fought in the war.

No. I didn't know that??? Do you?

I spent my childhood / teenage years growing up with that wartime generation. Being interested in "Airfix" and reading accounts of those in the RN, RAF and the Army, I spent that time actually talking to them.

Most wouldn't talk about their experiences directly or publicly, but I guess they were disarmed by a small and interested kid - I vividly remember my Gt Uncle's account of when his destroyer flotilla were tasked with picking up survivors from Hood (his ship, HMS Echo found none), or another relative's account of flak over the third Reich and of the utter delight of flying the Mosquito after originally flying Stirlings then Lancasters.

They were modest men. They would not have wanted their efforts and their mates deaths to be dragged into a political debate - on any side, let alone a right wing agenda not that far removed from what they fought against...

... Oh, and they were all dead by the end of the 80s

Basically your point is some jingoistic flag waiving hyperbolic BS..thats basically what got us in the mess in the first place

patriotic thick folk full of pride and bereft of facts

I did read it on britain first, I'm surprised you never slipped in "the on Benefits" tag too

To have fought in the war - assuming, generously 18 on 1945, one would have to be at least 78

88 actually. Although you could have been a lot younger and still been witness to the war, rationing, the blitz, etc.

However - wasn't the war fought to combat the threat of far right bigotry and intolerance. Weren't the other lot famous for rounding up people they didn't like from other countries / religions / cultures and getting rid of them?

A proportion of Brexit campaigners don't seem to me to be far away from that position, so using the 'we fought a war to stop the Germans telling us what to do' card as a reason for Brexit and then advocating deportation for people they don't like - that leaves me far colder about the state of our nation than any economic turmoil that in the end some very clever people in the BoE / Civil Service will sort out for us.

And where's Nigel disappeared to. What's his view on the 'ordinary decent' people who are now graffiti'ing the Polish centre and handing 'Get Out Now' cards to schoolkids?

Nigel - my daughter's two best school friends are Italian and Polish; my daughter's a clever and compassionate girl and when these girls moved to the UK with only basic English skills, she befriended them so they had someone to lean on as they took frightened steps in a new country. Can you tell her Nigel - are you planning to send them home? What should she say to them to reassure them that they aren't going to be deported?

When a 9 year old girl has a better idea about what basic human decency means than a big chunk of our population, that's when i despair about what our country has become.

37% Leave
36% Remain
28% No Vote

@mike I am very much against giving influence to those who can't be bothered to vote. There was a BBC piece about Romford and one lad said, "its complicated amd I don't understand it so its best someone else decides" yes that's dissapointing but you make a choice in not voting of opting out.

Of the older people I spoke to who had voted in '75 Referendum a key reason for Leave is that they felt lied to as they had voted for a Common Market with no political power and what they had got was quite different. As for "fighting in the war" whilst they might not have done so their parents, aunts, uncles, older brothers would have done with many dieing or being injured so the war memories are very real for them. The sense that close relatives died for our freedom is very real to them.

"its complicated amd I don't understand it so its best someone else decides" yes that's dissapointing

No, that's common sense. Or do you always make decisions on things you have no understanding of?

Oh, wait, you voted leave but have comprehensively demonstrated you have only a minuscule grasp of what effect that will actually have. It seems that at least in this case, you have demonstrated that you'll happily make decisions in the absence of understanding. I can understand your frustrations that you weren't as sensible as the lad from Essex.

The sense that close relatives died for our freedom is very real to them.

I don't doubt it, but yet again, that has **** all to do with the EU.

its complicated amd I don't understand it so its best someone else decides"

That is sensible, as long as the person that decides is more knowledgeable rather than less. Too late now, but why i feel in matters such as this an abstention should fall on the side of status quo rather than just not count.

i feel in matters such as this an abstention should fall on the side of status quo

That's a sodding good point, and an equally obvious one.

Leavers are in the minority, plain and simple.

in matters such as this an abstention should fall on the side of status quo rather than just not count.

That's a slippery slope though.

I'd prefer to see more scrutiny and regulation on claims made in elections and referrenda. And more consideration about what is a fitting subject for a referrendum in the first place.

If Farage got his way we'd probably be voting on the right to own guns and capital punishment next.

And of course parliament may still take the view that the majority of the UK population has not expressed a desire to leave the EU.

As Chillcot looms, Im reminded of.....

When our MPs voted for the Iraq war
It was based on a pack of lies and made no mention of an exit strategy

There wasnt even a Dodgy Dossier, just a Bullshit Bus
and it turns out no one has a Brexit strategy either

Either No vote to the status Quo or requiring the margin for a change to be higher seems entirely fair, the majority +10% want to make the change and needing a minimum turnout out 75%/compulsory voting? If we ever have to put this sort of massive decision to the people the importance must me made very clear to people.

It's not such a bad idea to have a are you pissed off with the government type question on there to get some of that angst out the way before the real one

I know 2 outers who signed the petition...

Personally I wonder if we should have a threshold on votes like this. As in, since it's so close it shouldn't be accepted. It needs say a 60% + majority to be valid. This is not the perspective of a bitter remain voter (I'm actually quite happy watching all this pan out knowing its win win for me) but I'm saddened by how bitter it is out there at the moment...it's not healthy for society....

the approach should have been to hold a referendum to gauge the nations opinion, NOT make a decision.

With a majority in favour of leaving, we could have gone back to the negotiating table in the EU with a clear mandate.

we still can. It'd be a snub for 'democracy' but nothing in the rules against it.

I'd prefer to see more scrutiny and regulation on claims made in elections and referrenda

There was plenty of scrutiny. People just chose to ignore what they didn't agree with.

the approach should have been to hold a referendum to gauge the nations opinion, NOT make a decision.

That's exactly what happened. Advisory.

the approach should have been to hold a referendum to gauge the nations opinion, NOT make a decision.

With a majority in favour of leaving, we could have gone back to the negotiating table in the EU with a clear mandate.

And that's one interpretation that might still be put on events, with it being so close and us seeing so much remorse since.

I know Juncker said no more renegotiation, but never say never in politics.

I think a second referendum following further negotiation is more likely than a simple "is that your final answer?" repeat referendum.

There was plenty of scrutiny. People just chose to ignore what they didn't agree with.

Not enough regulation when scrutiny revealed one side was telling whoppers though.

Not enough regulation when scrutiny revealed one side was telling whoppers though.

It's tough but in the climate where experts are disregarded and the facebook soundbite wins truth loses. Just see someone in here who just ignores any evidence that disputes his claims

That would certainly be the reaction from some quarters, but not everyone who voted Leave based on the campaign's distortions and lies will be a rabid conspiracy theorist.

we cannot ignore the will of the people just because we don't like it

Just see someone in here who just ignores any evidence that disputes his claims

Wouldn't go by the name of a Creole dish that is a lot more tasty than the tripe he normally serves up, would he?

the word advisory was never used in the run up to the vote. The voters believe it was a decision, the language used was about the nation deciding, Cameron said it in his resignation speech again. Irrespective of the legal terms of the referendum.

My point is, the terms of the referendum should have been debated fully, and the terms agreed and publicised.

Referendums should only be used for internal matters affecting the government directly. To have a referendum that immediately affects the UK's standing in the world and how we are perceived as a people and nation is a failure of planning and politics by our present government.

doesnt have any to support his claims either

You are correct we are a point where all opinions are equal as if my opinion on Physics is equal to Stephen hawkings or my medical opinion the same as my Doctors etc

Counter "facts" from polemicists are largely worthless- global warming was the first area I recall this happening massively.

There is also a widespread distrust of the establishment - god knows how you look at give , boris and farage and don't see spinning snakeoill salesman of the establishment though...stupidity I guess.

we cannot ignore the will of the people just because we don't like it

It's the will of substantially less than 50% of the voting population...

[b]we cannot ignore the will of the people just because we don't like it[/b]

we can ignore the will of the people if it puts this country at serious risk. That will play out over the coming months and years.

You could probably get a majority vote for all kinds of crazy shit, it never makes it right.

You can underline it as well next time, Junkyard, but the fact will remain that it is the will of substantially less then a majority of the adult population.

we cannot ignore the will of the people just because we don't like it

It's the will of substantially less than 50% of the voting population...

And there are serious doubts about the basis on which many of those votes were cast.

And "campaign promises" have been abandoned in record time.

And many leave voters now appear to be regretful.

I'm surprised there hasn't been any subsequent polling on how people would vote if given a second go. Has there?

Junkyard - The plain fact is that parliament [b]can[/b] ignore the result of the vote.

What we don't yet know is [b]if[/b] or [b]how[/b] it might do so.

we cannot ignore the will of the people just because we don't like it

I voted remain and I agree with this, we shouldn't have had a referendum in the first place but we did, so we have to live with the result. We can't keep having them until we get the *right* result and fudge the rules to ensure the *correct* occurs.

People in this country need to grow up and learn that when you make a decision you have to live with it. We voted in a government that promised a referendum, the rules were agreed in advance, the people then voted and the government of the day needs to honor the result and the government in waiting (vote leave) now need to deliver on their promises.

This isn't a game, even if Boris & Co act like it you can't hit reset and start again.

I am sure there will but the reality is for a second vote we ned unhappy leave voters to say this not unhappy remain voters

IMHO the only chance is if we have negotiate a "settlement" which is really crap with no EU access - ie what will actually happen- then we can ask if folk want to accept this
however it runes the risk of cementing Anti EU feeling for ever as we have "votes till we get the result we want.

IMHO the only chance is if we have negotiate a "settlement" which is really crap with no EU access - ie what will actually happen- then we can ask if folk want to accept this
however it runes the risk of cementing Anti EU feeling for ever as we have "votes till we get the result we want.

also the Sun/Mail/Farige would just repeat the same old nonsense as last time

the 'experts' would be ignored and theyd carry on regardless

Outers have caused a recession so expect them to sign now lol.

People in this country need to grow up and learn that when you make a decision you have to live with it.

I disagree, in this case.

When the referendum shouldn't have been held for many pragmatic reasons; and one side lied their arse off, how can it be a good idea to stand by the result? That was only advisory anyway?

And in general, when you realise you've done something stupid, it's brilliant to be able to have a get-out clause. And we do, in this case.

I'm surprised there hasn't been any subsequent polling on how people would vote if given a second go. Has there?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-bregret-leave-petition-second-remain-latest-will-we-leave-a7105116.html

But then the pollsters are wrong most of the time.

Horatio this is exactly the trap so many politicains have fallen into, people think immigration is an issue, politician says this is racism and therefore wrong and therefore declares moral high ground and victory. Voter votes for a party who they believe is listening to them. Who is the winner ? Labour/Diane Abbot have been particularly guilty of this. Younhave to enagage on this issue, the government has all the data and could have prodiced some proper detailed analysis - they did not which onky leads you to believe the people are right and the government is cobering stuff up. Broad brish headline stats fool no one, people can see whats going on with their eyes and are not convinced of the supposed benefits

Being reflective as a nation and actually admitting we have made a mistake is far better than just saying, 'yep made the decision, I guess we'd better screw ourselves over and just get on with it'.

It genuinely angers me with everyone saying we just need to get on with things. We as a nation need to take a real look at the implications now and actually see if we want to proceed with things.

It does not show any weakness in pausing and thinking carefully about something after a decision has been made.

But then the pollsters are wrong most of the time.

Yes absolutely. They do so much data normalisation after taking the survey they could prodice whatever resukt they wanted. Personally I think its time to have some new polling rules, eg ask 10,000 people minimum (not the 1,000 often used) insist they publish raw data as well as their results/adjustments. People would be shocked at the jiggery-pokery that goes on

Of the 17.4 million people who voted Leave, 1.1 million now say they wish they had not, if the results of a Survation poll are to be believed.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-bregret-leave-petition-second-remain-latest-will-we-leave-a7105116.html

But then the pollsters are wrong most of the time.

I bet most of the 18-24 yoofs would also get off their bums and vote stay too.

It does not show any weakness in pausing and thinking carefully about something after a decision has been made.

+1

Even my mobile phone asks me if I'm really sure when I tell it I want to do a factory reset.

@mrwhyte - admit mistakes. I like to hear some of that from the EU, Junker gone, comission disbanded and moving to fully elected only, massive pare down on eu budget, ecj for trade disputes only, freedom of movmement replaced by something else (eg top level visa system), stronger ecb and tighter reign on euro memenrs or even a two tier euro (been discussed, richer / poorer nations split) ....

Junker and the EU are too arrogant and have too many vested interests to do that, with only a few tweaks they couldhave ensured Caneron got a real renogotiation and avoided the Leave result. They took a punt on the Referendum and lost,

We as a nation

you mean this we that just voted over 50 percent, means split down the middle

kind of make its more you and them

the word advisory was never used in the run up to the vote.

People can read for themselves, but accept the wider point

The voters believe it was a decision, the language used was about the nation deciding, Cameron said it in his resignation speech again. Irrespective of the legal terms of the referendum.

By the looks of things, voters believed lots of things that were not true. Makes no difference apparently. So we cant cherry pick.

If anyone is thinking about the "advisory" aspect of the referendum, its most likely to be Bojo and Gove. They have exposed themselves now and there are few hiding places.

IMHO the only chance is if we have negotiate a "settlement" which is really crap with no EU access - ie what will actually happen- then we can ask if folk want to accept this

Merkel's spokesman is now saying there won't be any negotiations, formal or otherwise until they have our Art 50 letter in their hand.

But that might be a fib too.

Of the 17.4 million people who voted Leave, 1.1 million now say they wish they had not, if the results of a Survation poll are to be believed.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-bregret-leave-petition-second-remain-latest-will-we-leave-a7105116.html
But then the pollsters are wrong most of the time.

I bet most of the 18-24 yoofs would also get off their bums and vote stay too.

BBC Today program reported however that a proportion of people who voted Remain would now vote Out. Which i find equally bewildering as the Out vote in the first place. based on the poll they reported (sorry, don't remember whose it was) the majority would now be 400,000 but still siding with Leave.

I don't know if anyone's polled the 'I didn't vote first time but now i would' types, but my perception is while that would also be split, there would be a predominance of Remain in that segment simply because people thought they didn't need to vote because it wa sa foregone conclusion.

Can we sue Johnson and Gove?

Out of all of this cluster..... I would hope there's two good things that come out of this:

1. That the public are more engaged in how the country is run, the turnout in the referendum being higher than the last general election begins to point to this.

2. More people learn to not just believe what's being said and do a bit of research yourself to see if what's being said is true, half true or just fantasy.