my BMW cruise works at 20mph.
Some valid and not so vlaid points though. 20mph is a weird speed for cars to travel at, they will be in gearing that's neither optimal, or particularly poor, particulate filters will not be re-generating at that speed, but then you argue they wont until over 50 anyway (petrol and diesel) (not all, but vast majority) also it does seem like an age to get anyway at 20mph.
HOWEVER - i live down a small road and habitually drive at 20 - it suits the conditions, there are complete ****stains that drive down it at like it's a race track they will end up killing someone soon and it better not be one of my kids - the school run parents are some of the worst offenders. Would i like to drive at 20mph throughout the entire village - no, most cyclists would pass you at that speed round my way.
Speed limits should be set for the road type and then driven at appropriate speeds for the conditions, there are plenty of roads where the speed limit baffles belief..
Peebleshirenews on FB by any chance?
Border Telegraph but I think it is basically the same rag. Reporting the same community council meeting though (also mentioned the disgust at getting overtaken by cyclists)
"being overtaken by cyclists speeding going to the pumptrack"
Which is impressive given that 90% of the bikes at the track are jump bikes or bmxs.
Speaking from experience in Northumberland, not that far from the borders:
Our local authority were really not keen on putting a 20 limit through our village because it meant extra signage.
They also refused to put in a crossing point on the main street because the sight lines were not good enough and "drivers might not see it in time" which was very much the point of wanting it!
A petition was put round the village and got a LOT of signatures. The LA relented and installed a 20 limit.
Very few people pay any attention to it. 🙁
Cardiff is also busy making every 30 road a 20, I'll be honest, the downsides for me:
It's slower, which means it takes longer, which is boring.
It makes my car a tiny bit less efficient, which isn't an issue per-se, but it's negates at least half the supposed benefits. It's an auto, and it does indeed seem to make it constantly shift between 2nd and 3rd which hurts the efficiency.
It's been introduced (in Cardiff at least) in an completely arbitrary way, when announced it was supposed to be residential streets, but in reality it's any 30mph road, with or without houses on it and typically 'main roads' and not what most people would consider to be residential streets. It's also being introduced to roads that haven't had an accident involving a Pedestrian / Horse Rider / Cyclist etc ever.
It's increased tailgating and associated 'road rage' massively, I don't know how you can, or should legislate for stupid, but it's happening.
It's ugly, I already think there are too many road signs, not only from an ascetic point of view but there's so many now, most seem to get ignored, lost in a sea of red and white reflective metal The council must agree because on the roads where they're introduced it, they've plastered every lamppost, erected new signs and written it on the road.
I find 20mph very difficult as it is between 2nd and 3rd gears
A limited lifespan problem because:
a) As more 20 limits are rolled out, manufacturers will adjust gearing.
b) Electric cars are coming and most of them don't have gears!
Some valid and not so vlaid points though. 20mph is a weird speed for cars to travel at, they will be in gearing that’s neither optimal, or particularly poor, particulate filters will not be re-generating at that speed, but then you argue they wont until over 50 anyway (petrol and diesel) (not all, but vast majority) also it does seem like an age to get anyway at 20mph.
Do remember that in the next decade or two that becomes a non-issue as we all move to electric.
That and I would not play to 'my car isn't working well, I *must* go faster for it to work well' or 'that feels slow and a bike is faster'. That isn't the priority here. If a bike is faster than 20mph, they can be prosecuted. If the car isn't the ideal tool as 20mph damages, then get walking or cycling.
The council must agree because on the roads where they’re introduced it, they’ve plastered every lamppost, erected new signs and written it on the road.
Unfortunately, because the "default" is 30, any deviation from that default needs to be very heavily signed with repeaters etc.
This could be fixed with a change in traffic and signage regulations, but I doubt anyone is that sensible.
A properly instituted 20 mph limit actually increases traffic flow
A car is not less efficient at a steady 20 mph
If 20 mph is between 2 and 3rd then 30 mph will be between 3rd and 4th! Pjay - lock it into a gear then
A bike cannot be prosecuted for speeding - nor its rider. Very few cyclists will be doing more than 20 mph unless downhill
Pretty sure my last three cars, Focus, Golf and V50 were all in the "CC @ 20MPH" club.
Big fan of a 20, me. 🙂
It makes my car a tiny bit less efficient, which isn’t an issue per-se, but it’s negates at least half the supposed benefits. It’s an auto, and it does indeed seem to make it constantly shift between 2nd and 3rd which hurts the efficiency.
You must have an old/crap auto TBH.
Unless I drop mine into manual I've no idea which gear it's in, nor can I feel it change unless I've stood on the loud pedal when it drops 2-3.
And yes, cruise & limit work at 20.
A properly instituted 20 mph limit actually increases traffic flow
A car is not less efficient at a steady 20 mph
If 20 mph is between 2 and 3rd then 30 mph will be between 3rd and 4th! Pjay – lock it into a gear then
The problem is the world ain't flat, and it certainly isn't in Wales, so there's little 'steady' to go around.
The gearbox in my car is pretty clever, it's DCT rather than a true auto and gear depends on load and elevation, on the plus side if it's going downhill, it will switch to neutral, but it's 2nd/3rd/2nd/3rd/2nd/3rd You only really feel it when it's cold, but it will hold a constant 3rd at 30mph.
There's no point locking it in 3rd, as it goes up hill it will switch to 2nd to avoid stalling, I could lock it to 2nd, but it would be a bit loud.
The thing is, if you consider this entirely from the standpoint of pedestrians, horsey riders, cyclists, school kids, mobility scooter users, and the elderly, it really is difficult to come up with a coherent argument against it.
The problem is that a lot of drivers think that the roads exist exclusively to serve cars.
True you cannot be done for speeding, but you can for ignoring roadsings or careless or inconsiderate cycling:
From
Other cycling offences: As well as the offence of cycling on a footway/footpath, the Road
Traffic Act 1988 sets out a number of other cycling related offences, which are summarised
below:
Section 24: Ride more than one to a bicycle, unless it has been designed to carry more
than one person
Section 26: Hold on to a moving vehicle or trailer
Section 28: Cycle dangerously
Section 29: Cycle in a careless or inconsiderate manner
Section 30: Cycle under the influence of drink or drugs
Section 36: Fail to comply with road signs and signals
Section 163: Failure to stop when required by a police or traffic officer
Section 168: Failure to give, or giving false name and address in case of careless,
inconsiderate or dangerous cyclingWhat constitutes dangerous cycling: Dangerous cycling is defined as cycling in a manner
liable to cause either injury to a person or serious damage to property. In determining whether
a person has cycled dangerously, a Sheriff must consider whether it would have been obvious
to a competent and careful cyclist that cycling in such a manner that fell far below the standard
that would be expected of such a cyclist.What constitutes careless or inconsiderate cycling: A person may be guilty of careless or
inconsiderate cycling if the cycle on a road without due care and attention, or without
reasonable consideration for other persons.Roadworthiness: Any bike being ridden at night or when there is seriously reduced visibility
must be fitted with a rear reflector, pedal reflectors and front and rear lights, under the
provisions of the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 as amended. Flashing lights are
allowed. Failure to comply with these requirements is an offence. The Pedal Cycle
(Construction and Use) Regulations 1983 requires anyone using a bike to ensure that their
brakes are in working order.
Enforcement: The enforcement of cycling offences is a matter for local police forces. Police
use fixed penalty notices to deal with most cycling offences, e.g. cycling without lights at night or
failing to stop at a red light. A fixed penalty notice for a cycling offence requires the payment of
a £30 fine. However, someone found guilty, on summary conviction, of carrying a passenger on
a bike designed for one person could be fined up to £200, holding on to a moving vehicle up to
£200, careless or inconsiderate cycling up to £1000, cycling while unfit through drink and drugs
up to £1000, failing to comply with traffic signs or signals up to £1000, dangerous cycling up to
£2500 and cycling on the pavement up to £500. Failure to stop when required, failure to give
details or providing false details can result, on summary conviction, of a fine of up to £1000.
The level of fines due for cycling offences are set out in Schedule 2 of the Road Traffic
Offenders Act 1988.
Children and young people are not technically exempt from the legal restrictions described
above. However, the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010, Section 52
establishes that no-one aged under 12 can be prosecuted for an offence, effectively meaning
that anyone aged under 12 can freely cycle, in a responsible manner, on the pavement.
As part of the same initiative in another council area, we have widened pavements around town, particularly by removing the laybys at bus stops and some (legal) on-pavement parking.
Armageddon was predicted, and economic ruin forecast.
1. Congestion seems no worse than before, possibly better.
2. Idiot parking has virtually disappeared.
3. There actually seem to be more empty spaces - I have no logical reason for this other than perhaps the shopkeepers not hogging them all for themselves, or people assuming they won't get a space and parking 200 yds away.
4. Street seems busier than I'd expect with pedestrians considering Level 4 restrictions; so probably having its intended function.
Have the loudmouths come back to say they might have been wrong? No - last week there was a spot of rain and the modifications seem to have caused some draining issues - they are there saying "see I told you" (nobody on the previous thread mentioned any drainage concerns). And then a few others joined in declaring that shopkeepers were definitely seeing a fall in trade (presumably nobody told those people about the level 4 restrictions closing most shops and meaning less passing trade for those who can open?)
Local facebook groups make this place seem calm and rational.
My personal favourite* from the ongoing FB whingefest:
At 20mph it is too easy be be distracted and look around at stuff rather than concentrating. This makes it more dangerous.
On that kind of logic they should increase the speed limit to 50mph, it would be waaaay safer
* I say favourite but I still have special affection for the person who reckons HGV's are damaging building by being forced to drive slower.
I’ve been driving at 30mph for 33 years, you cannot expect me to just drop to 20mph straight away, it will take a while to adjust down to that speed
I drove through Gala at the weekend. I've been driving in built up areas at 30mph for 35 years.
It look about half a second to see the first sign and slow down.
I find 20mph very difficult as it is between 2nd and 3rd gears
Really? How about a refresher course on how to drive, it's not that difficult.
I'm looking forwards to moving there and feeling safer on the roads.
tjagain
Full MemberA properly instituted 20 mph limit actually increases traffic flow
It does. But the problem is the drivers- if people are still doing 30, or doing traffic light grand prix and tailgaiting and braking and accelerating hard- all the things that 20 should avoid- then it pretty much cancels it out. The question is whether drivers actually change. (I wonder if the lockdown/reduced in town driving has had any effect? Breaking habits etc. I know I've made some mistakes with speed limits on roads that I'm used to traffic dictating speed so it could cut both ways)
I am in favour of 20 limits for sure but I've come to believe that it has to be strongly and visibly enforced. Everything from police on the roads to signs with baby robins' faces to a parade of headline court cases with real consequential punishments. The edinburgh softly softly approach has worked to some extent but the trouble is that it's mostly sensible drivers that follow it, and sensible drivers are more likely to be observant, courteous, competent and law abiding in other things like insurance and MOTs etc. Whereas the people who ignore it are more likely to be arseholes and arseholes are never arseholes about just one thing. Maybe this is the time to bring in the full judge dredd approach, probably they could sweep up a lot of driving while disqualifieds, uninsureds etc at the same time
– I am more likely to hit a pedestrian as I have to look at my speedo rather than the road and pavements.
I always love this one. People happily shouting "you can't change the law because I am an incompetent driver".
All of Cambridge, bar the ring road, has been 20 mph for years – no one sticks to it.
Same in Bristol. However, while people speed, they're going slower than when the limit was 30 mph. So it's a win of sorts.
We have that here in our town in the Highlands.
It's great from the cycling perspective because the halfwits who would pass on a narrow urban road at 40 now do so at 30mph or slightly less.
More and more people are obeying the limit now, and it has a marked beneficial effect on general road courtesy.
I live near 2 schools and it has made the morning madness much less so because the 20mph limit is being observed.
Driving is a whole lot more pleasant during our rush minute.
I'm all for it.
We've just had the road markings done, but awaiting the signs to be changed. No real difference so far (to be fair, until the signs are done it's pointless thinking on it!). Whilst it's a good thing, I can't help but think it'll make naff all difference, as those ignoring the 30 tend to do so by quite some way, so not sure they'll care about the 20 either. That said, it only takes the car in front to slow down all those behind - downside to this is that it might actually increase the amount of overtaking through the village.
– I find 20mph very difficult as it is between 2nd and 3rd gears
I'm pretty in favour of 20mph limits in busy cities and resi roads - but I do agree with that statement! My car is not happy at 20, its too fast for 2nd and too slow for 3rd!
Seriously?
I’m pretty in favour of 20mph limits in busy cities and resi roads – but I do agree with that statement! My car is not happy at 20, its too fast for 2nd and too slow for 3rd!
And yet so many places in Europe manage with 30kph limits. How? HOW?
I used to drive at 20mph in 6th in my old V6 Golf - it had enough torque and it was nice and sluggish, so was hard to accidently increase the speed.
All of Brussels (well apart from a small number of major roads) is moving to 30kph (about 20mph) from January. FB is going to explode :).
Chuckling at this idea that a speed is "between gears" and therefore shouldn't be a speed limit. Surely for any given speed you've normally got two or more would do an acceptable job, so to be unable to find one you can't be looking very hard. On top of this there's acceleration, deceleration, gradient, all of which are rarely precisely zero anyway. Ya just might have to change gear sometimes (til you go electric).
Nothing but good things for all residential areas to be 20. In a nutshell.
None of the complaints I have heard hold water.
Mind you that 'getting distracted and mowing down pedestrians' one is a doozy. Be honest what you just said was 'I'm too shit at driving to drive'
