[Closed] Working Mans Race Series-Warning Strava content

I think you have a race on your hands if you INVITE people to race over a given area and list the results and offer prizes.
It's a race in anyones book.
Racing on BWs is illegal.

You'll need insurance and the landowners permission.

A racer was killed Sunday, I'd like to know how you'd deal with the death of a rider in one of your races?

Edit; there must be someone in the know here. I organise Road races, time trials, reliability trials, CX races etc etc. All need permissions and/or insurance

Sorry to moan, mountain biking is effing great, but I've never seen internet data based info as making it more fun. I must be one of those old bores. Oh to be a rebellious hippy internet nerd.

I try and ignore the 30MPH averages on sone of the smoother segments near here (the ones u gotta use to get to the muddy bits_ as thats just roadies trying to show that they think they have a bigger willy than me...

You're kidding? So because you're an overweight unfit mountain biker anyone faster is trying to show off to you? Dear god, get over yourself. How utterly pathetic.

Just had a giggle. Remember the silly girls who invited people to their party via facebook 😀

That pesky old WORLD WIDE web

Irresponsible move on the OP's part to include a BW as part of the course.
Just grow a pair and admit that you know this but don't give a shit.

[i]with their 'race series' and their facebook pages and their videos and their promotions on Internet forums they're playing right into the hands of any interest group looking to put a stop to them and any bike access. [/i]

I think this is the biggest reason.

It's not about actual safety, it's about perceived safety. Landowners,other users and local authorities will either put in 'traffic calming' on these trails or put them beyond use by mtbers.

I'm all for riding down stuff at speeds that scare me.

I'm against losing access to either cheeky or legal off road stuff because some people can't seem to see the difference between a bunch of mates having a laugh on a Tuesday night and putting a race series together.

I use Strava and love it but I'm also aware that it makes public some bits of riding which I'd sometimes rather weren't quite so visible.

They're not the sharpest pins in the pack, these lads, are they?

I'm glad I'm not that 'cool'.

There are some really thin attempts to justify this. Claiming that this is "progressing the sport" is a bit like taking a dump on someone's doorstep, uploading a picture to Facebook and saying you're progressing the cause of public hygiene.

I've been involved with getting better trails and access for MTBers for around 9 years now (not long in the grand scheme of things) and in that time I've seen a big change in landowner's attitudes to mountain bikers, to something they actually recognise as a legitimate use of the countryside and often want to encourage. See the article on the National Trust in a recent issue for an example. Stuff like this seems a big step backwards.

A few years ago there were no enduro events in the UK, now there are loads of one-offs and race series all over the country. These are organised by people who bust a gut to get all the relevant permissions, keep racers and randoms safe and do proper timing (I know it always seems to be the weak point, but when it works it's still going to be more accurate than the +/- 20 metres your phone gives). Funny how putting on your own version of this with no permission, no insurance and no marshalling is somehow rock 'n' roll rebellion. Would you think the same about someone who was driving uninsured and without a licence?

I love it when you get all earnest Mr_A 😉

He's right though - boring as it may be, setting up a race on a bridleway with strava is just asking for that good bit of trail to be sanitised by the local council/local do-gooder and to be fair if people are hooning down them to get a better time, I'm not sure they're totally out of order for once.

Strava is brilliant. I love it and I love trying to beat my own times (because I'm not quick enough to actually trouble the leaders) but I do it in places where I'm not going to be causing conflict. That conflict may not always be justified (HE WAS OUT OF CONTROL - translated to he passed me at more than walking pace) but that doesn't always matter. As Mr_A said, it's a lot of work to get events organised and permission granted. This sort of thing may well undermine a lot of that and IMO the organised events are what progress the sport, not a strava race-off.

Most of the handwringing on this thread comes down to the fact that you have called the thing you are proposing a "Race" it's simply a matter of definition...
I think there's a simple solution that might actually be acceptable to some complainants:

OP simply Retract your use of the term "Race" and the offer of any form of "Prize". instead you are simply submiting a proposal to the great unwashed for a "training event"...

You have shared a route on Strava (not illegal) which contains some Downhill Segments and some BW (Not illegal) and Strava will of course keep a table of user's times for these (this is Completely out of your control as strava does this automatically)...
So the site essentially generates the basis for a "comparison of rider's performances"... But it's NOT a race!

Now You may choose to make a gift of some biscuits or a pint to a KOM holder at some point in the future. But that would simply be one individual recognising anothers sporting prowess, based on a [U]Non-competitive[/U] GPS logged performance, with no hint of a "Race" to it, merely recognition of ability...

Does that satisfy anyones concerns at all?

What about the unemployed ? Will they also be welcome to race, oops, I mean will their ability also be recognised or is it just open to working men and women?

We've had a request to close this thread as it's 'getting out of hand'.

We said categorically, no.

For the record... Racing and promoting racing on the BW network is illegal. As far as we are concerned at ST it's also irresponsible and puts shared trail users at an unacceptable risk that will potentially backfire on the whole MTB community.

This is an accident waiting to happen and Singletrack does not endorse this event.

Take it off the BW network on to dedicated trails with permission, liability insurance etc and it's a different matter entirely.

Most of the handwringing on this thread comes down to the fact that you have called the thing you are proposing a "Race" it's simply a matter of definition..

"Race [b]or trial of speed[/b]"

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/31

And it's not just about the legality. It's about the well-documented propensity of people involved in a "race" (even one without the inverted commas) to behave like dicks. And the wisdom of promoting all this publicly.

I wonder what peoples reaction would have been if it was just people timing themselves and sharing the results with their facebook friends with no mention of Strava.

bigyinn - I think the issue is promoting a race on a public bridelway.

Strava gives a rather inaccurate way of doing the timing and makes it very public but it's secondary to the racing on a shared use path thing for me.

+1 wwaswas. Not the strava aspect of it (my views on strava above 😉 )

I wonder what peoples reaction would have been if it was just people timing themselves and sharing the results with their facebook friends with no mention of Strava.

There wouldn't be a reaction at all, because no one other than the participants would know about it, would they. I think we can all accept that people do cheeky things, whether it's riding on the odd footpath, mates comparing times down runs or whatever. If this had stayed as some mates using strava to compare times on runs, even on bridleways then no one would have a problem with it. I just don't get how anyone can't see that there is a significant difference between that and publicising it as a race series all over the internet and offering prizes. It's like they're [b]trying[/b] to create trouble for themselves.

On the other hand though.... the pitchforks weren't sharpened for a certain monger of bikes the other month when he proposed something that in practice will look more like a race than this, although at least he had the common sense to introduce some language to make it seem less illegal. For example

off road sportive format rather than official race, no entry fees, no insurance, no medics, no marshalls. no gears, no fuss.

there is a race, it is a race, we will be racing... But don't tell anyone with a clip board.

You see they are running (they being wiggle) an offload sportive on public rights of way. You are not allowed to race on briddlepaths ( horse and feet, yes, bikes, no). Wiggle give you a good medal for finishing within a certain time, folk "race" for the medals. We will award a medal to anyone who finishes within a certain time, that time will be decided once someone has finished. Loop hole. Reliability trial... Sportive, Whatever

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ssuk-2013 ]Topic from this here forum[/url]

In essence, is that much different? Well, yeah, everyone will be riding at the same time so it will look a lot more like a race to any passing dog walkers than the OP's strava based tournament actually. But on the other hand Charlie hasn't gone round the internet shouting "Illegal race here! Illegal race here!"

I know a few people who aren't happy about what Charlie is doing. Thing it, if it's anything like previous SSUKs it'll be the least competitive "race" ever run. People don't do beer stops in the middle of Strava runs do they?

He's also running it as an off-road sportive so it'll be insured and landowners notified, etc. Apples and oranges.

Point is though, as least he's made that effort to try and present it as something other than an illegal race. But yes, it did strike me as odd on reflection that none of the concerns expressed in this thread seemed to come out in that thread despite the obvious parallels.

Mark - Resident Grumpy
We've had a request to close this thread as it's 'getting out of hand'.

We said categorically, no.

Out of interest which side of the argument asked for the thread to be closed?

Mr Agreeable - Member
I know a few people who aren't happy about what Charlie is doing. Thing it, if it's anything like previous SSUKs it'll be the least competitive "race" ever run

I dunno, there are at least normally 3 or 4 people who are actually going for it. Even saw the eventual winner* ride through the beer stop without stopping for a hop based beverage once.

*in my eyes this should've been a straight dq. Much like the american chap who refused his tattoo after winning the sscxwc**

**they call it a world championship but it's only ever been held in the US. a bit like the world series in that respect i suppose.

[img] [/img]

I just don't get how anyone can't see that there is a significant difference between that and publicising it as a race series all over the internet and offering prizes. It's like they're trying to create trouble for themselves.

What it says to me is
"we don't have the organisational skills, common sense, time, ability or money to organise a proper race so we're going to do none of the work and take all of the credit"

All over the UK, people are working their arses off to organise new races, bring new blood into the sport, open up new venues (sometimes working against recalcitrant landowners/councils/NIMBYs etc) and run properly organised races that have in place the necessary infrastructure for safety and the ever present threat of litigation.

Than along comes one idiot who decides to spread the word of an illegal event all over the interweb and risks all of that development work, all the people doing things by the book. There's not really much harm in running something like that "under the radar", keep it local and quiet but putting it all over Facebook is a really silly move.

We've had a request to close this thread as it's 'getting out of hand'.

We said categorically, no.

On the other hand though.... the pitchforks weren't sharpened for a certain monger of bikes the other month when he proposed something that in practice will look more like a race than this,

From charlie:

One plan is to start an SSUK cycling club, membership would include the weekend event. We affiliate the club with another cycling organisation for a few quid and then we have liability insurance for our event. Throw in a risk assessment and we in.

This would allow us to run Reliability trials, and time trials for up to 200 people. This means we wont be tied to private land, and have access to rights of way. This is the format of the wiggle off road sportives, where 1,000 riders will be going down my local singletrack in November.

So yes, assuming it goes ahead to that plan, everyone's insured.

Interesting edlong, I'd missed that thread.

So apparently it's all OK to run an "off road sportive" so long as the STW big hitters approve, but sharing a route on Strava is now illegal?

What exactly does it take to makes a "high paced training ride" or "Off road Sportive" into a "race or trial of speed" then?

The Individual riders's ground speed exceeding "bimble-speed"?
Timing individuals across a course?
Comparing times as a basis for competition?

spoony, yes, I get that, Charlie has been clever about it and tried to make sure, as far as possible, to present it as something other than a race. However, it's hard to deny that he's surfing somewhere close to the line with comments like

there is a race, it is a race, we will be racing... But don't tell anyone with a clip board

and

We will award a medal to anyone who finishes within a certain time, that time will be decided once someone has finished. Loop hole. Reliability trial... Sportive, Whatever

So, let's assume he gets that insurance set up - the brokers will gladly take his money for the premium, but just say something goes horribly wrong on the day and they need to put in a massive claim. Do you think the insurance will pay out, no questions asked? Or do you think they might see what's in the public domain where the organiser has pretty much said it is a race, talked about loopholes and say no, sorry, we didn't cover you for racing which in our opinion is what this was, claim rejected? I reckon the latter.

It's a bit like those parents putting their kids on as named drivers at the home address when they are away at university and have sole use of the car. No questions asked when you take out the policy, whole worlds of trouble when a claim is made against it...

I'm not sure that, from a legal perspective, it matters much how hard / seriously the racing is taken?

Sorry, I'm going to resort to doing this as I can't be arsed to type much more:

So apparently it's all OK to run an "off road sportive" so long as [s]the STW big hitters approve[/s] it's insured and the people whose land it's happening on are notified, but sharing a route on Strava [u]and telling people to go out and smash it as fast as they can to win a prize[/u] is illegal [u]and stupid to boot[/u]?

[i]We will award a medal to anyone who finishes within a certain time, that time will be decided once someone has finished.[/i]

this has how wiggle, evans etc manage things. Set a target time, issue a medal for those that come in within that time.

I know some New Forest residents have complained about the format on the Wiggle rides and see it as racing but legally, it's not.

We've had a request to close this thread as it's 'getting out of hand'.
We said categorically, no.

In fact you've decided to put a post onfacebook to draw even more attention to it. 😆

So apparently it's all OK to run an "off road sportive" so long as the STW big hitters approve, but sharing a route on Strava is now illegal?

trying to be balanced about it, there is a bit of difference between Charlie saying

"we're doing an off-road sportive, which isn't a race, honest, guv (wink, wink)"

and blokey on this thread saying

"we're running an illegal race, cos we're rebels, come join us"

As I said earlier, we all do cheeky things, but some people at least have the nouse to know when they're being cheeky and don't broadcast the cheekiness with such explicit disregard for the consequences.

Do I think what Charlie is doing is similar to what the OP is doing?

Yes

Do I think Charlie has been a million times less stupid about it?

Yes

We will award a medal to anyone who finishes within a certain time, that time will be decided once someone has finished.

this has how wiggle, evans etc manage things. Set a target time, issue a medal for those that come in within that time.

The difference is in there if you read it - wiggle set the target time beforehand, Charlie will set the target time once someone finishes. Do you not see how, if someone were to look closely (like, say, an insurance assessor looking at a million pound liability claim) that might be a little awkward to explain the logic of?

Am I missing something ?

Is there any difference between the Working Man's series and the [url= http://thisisheffield.stravatrailracing.co.uk/ ]This Is Sheffield[/url]series ?

AFAIK, there have been no fatalities on the BWs around Sheffield this winter.

If you going to ride like an idiot because you have a GPS on your bike, your going to ride like an idiot anyway. But for most of us Strava is interesting, not because we are trying to be the best, but to see how far behind the best we are.

At least you're consistent......oh no,no you're not.My mistake

Oh please. You don't think there's any merit in discussing this issue?

If the thread was closed we'd get a different set of people complaining about double standards. Can't win.

What exactly does it take to makes a "high paced training ride" or "Off road Sportive" into a "race or trial of speed" then?

How about statements such as calling it a

fun "race series"

and saying that

At the end of the month the fastest mens and womans times will be rewarded with ...

Yeah, I reckon that would do it.

Am I missing something ?

Is there any difference between the Working Man's series and the This Is Sheffieldseries ?

i think someone mentioned it earlier - isn't the difference that the sheffield thing isn't done illegally on shared use bridleways?

Based on a comment on here, happy to be corrected if that's not right, I have no knowledge of the sheffield thing..

[b]AFAIK[/b], there have been no fatalities on the BWs around Sheffield [b]this winter[/b].

Love how you feel the need to qualify that statement.

I feel the same way about the Sheffield stuff, but at least they've had the good sense to keep it fairly low-key.

just make a singletrackworld club on strava. there you go.

don't worry about it, strava is a training tool/mechanism for banter.

honestly,some people.

Look at it this way:

One relatively popular STW user proposes a friendly "Race" that isn't really a race but everyone knows it's a bit of a race.
All done in the spirit of camaraderie, community and sharing, this is met with pretty much universal support and acclaim.
There's a bit of a question over how the definitions used for this event might affect it's liability status/insurance but anyone who questions it is shouted down by the great and the good...

Another STW user proposes a friendly Race that isn't really a race but everyone knows it's a bit of a race really, all done in the spirit of Camaraderie, community and sharing, this is met with hostility and accusations of irresponsibility and stupidity on user's persons part. the key differences really being, he's not CTBM, he proposed using Strava (boo Hiss!) to time people on bikes (sort of it's purpose)...

CTBM was pretty open in his SSUK thread about creative use of terminology to get around those pesky rules on the definition of a "race". I don't personally think He's really doing anything wrong, his motives and those of this threads OP are actually not a million miles apart, and in the interest of the sport and MTBing community...

I wonder why STW is seen by some as a Den of Toss-Bandits by some...

How about billing the events as a ‘featured segment of the month’? You wouldn’t be doing anything that isn’t already available in Strava, just bringing people’s attention to a nice trail.

Do a video if you like, a bit of a description and possibly suggest a route which takes in the segment or multiple segments to make it more ‘gravity enduro’. No mention of racing, no prizes and massive caveats about respecting other trail users, riding responsibly etc.

And if the KOM at the end of the month gets details of a nearby geocache which just happens to contain “something suitably "Northern" like a box of tea and some biscuits or possibly a trophy made from manly working stuff like bits of metal and old tools” then that would be lucky wouldn’t it.

Threads like this are why I love you guys,

Thinking it through, concerns re the SSUK event are reasonable. It's 2 months off yet, let's see what happens.

(Off-road sportives with 1000 riders on rights of way? That volume of traffic on a bridleway effectively denies its peaceful use to other users. I can't see that lasting).

aracer - Member
I don't have a 6" travel all mountain steed, but I do have GPX editing software - can I race?

Seriously though - it's simply too easy to cheat with these things (intentionally or otherwise). It makes a mockery of the whole concept.

I know this isn't the sort of measured, nuanced debate you get on, say, Pinkbike, but if you could try and take in the following points.

SSUK(G) is an official event with insurance cover, organised by an easily traceable local business owner, not some random with an assumed internet name.

The course is 25 miles long, so you're not going to get people going balls out the whole way.

99% of the entrants are going to be treating it as a hungover pootle, not a training exercise.

Prizes will be awarded on a completely random basis, such as prowess at dancing to rubbish glam rock, and the person who comes home first will be clapped and forgotten about rather than being feted as an INTERNET LEGEND.

Even with all this, I still don't think unleashing 200 hungover mountain bikers in Dorset on a Bank Holiday weekend is a risk-free proposition, but I have more faith in that to pass off smoothly than countless little unregulated internet pissing contests, entered by the sort of people who throw a hissy fit when their segment along a shared-use pavement outside a nursing home is flagged as hazardous.

countless little unregulated internet pissing contests, entered by the sort of people who throw a hissy fit when their segment along a shared-use pavement outside a nursing home is flagged as hazardous

rofl. and the wittiest people are definitely on the 'nay' side of the fence!

Firstly, I applaud STW's decision to let this debate run.

It prompts an interesting consideration around which "rules" an individual chooses to respect and which they don't.

Are you happy to race your riding buddies down a track that happens to be catagorised as a BW?
Are you happy to use Strava for something outside of it's specific terms of use?
Are you happy to ride uninsured?

Yes to all? OK, I'll summarise that as "I'd be happy to take part, BUT..."

So, what's the "BUT"?
I'm interpretting this as simply, ...how would this be perceived if it was widely publicised, attracted unwanted attention from nay-sayers, gave them opportunity to voice their unshakable views?

Was it wise to publicise this as a race on an open internet forum? Not sure - Maybe not, but does it hurt to have someone do something that tests the boundaries of the debate occasionally? Definately not.

I can't help but feel that we're all expected to [b]be seen[/b] to condemn this.

You're absolutely right of course Mr A, the OP by posting up a Strava route has, like some sort of cycling pied-piper, bated countless MTBers to certain death on a BW in the lakes...

Of course I don't think anyone actually thought the OP of this thread was proposing an event on anything like the scale or seriousness of even SSUK...

He wanted people to have a go along his shared route and see how they got on, "Race", "Sportive", "time trial", just "going for a ride" call it what you will, I don't think it presents anything like the scale of risks you're bleating about.

The point was pretty simple, if the internet jabberings of this threads OP:

At the end of the month the fastest mens and womans times will be rewarded with something suitably "Northern" like a box of tea and some biscuits...

Can be attributed as liability in some future "Death by Strava" court case, as you seem to contend, then CTBM is on shakey ground liability wise with...

there is a race, it is a race, we will be racing... But don't tell anyone with a clip board

If then goes on to obtain insurance for something that isn't a race...

So if one thread should be deleted, then so should the other IMO...
STW censorship rules being what they are I wouldn't hold my breath though.

The reason you jumped all over the OP of this thread is clearly the mention of Strava. Which seems to get certain Mary's in a proper H&S froth for some reason, because someone once cut a corner on their shitty trails and they decided that Strava made them do it by subliminal suggestion or something...

I've seen not actual constructive criticism directed towards the OP, no suggestions on how he could organize properly or perhaps scale back his proposal to avoid making himself liable for unintended injuries (clearly your prime concern).
No you you lot just felt the need to put the boot in to an essentially well meaning individual who wanted to take part and share in the MTBing community, because basically you're a barrage of ****s...

I await my ban ****s...