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sorry Ecky, but all that stuff about "what we are expected to be seen to do" is a load of waffle.
I do agree with you that debate about what's OK and what isn't OK is fine.
But there's no need to be fuzzy about the issue in this case -it was not wise to publicly promote a race on a BW; it is illegal to do that.
[i]The reason you jumped all over the OP of this thread is clearly the mention of Strava[/i]
I think a number of people have explained their misgivings and they don't revolve aroudn Strava, however convenient you find it as a vehicle for your ire.
Up until your last two sentences I was happy to discuss stuff but, really, is that the best you can do?
[because basically you're a barrage of ****...I await my ban ****s...
Up until your last two sentences I was happy to discuss stuff but, really, is that the best you can do?
+1 Indeed, so many full stops! *Reports post to the grammar police.*
But there's no need to be fuzzy about the issue in this case -it was not wise to publicly promote a race on a BW; it is illegal to do that.
But there's two issues in that single quote alone Asterix.
1. to promote
2. to race
That's furtile fuzziness in which to grow a whole crop of waffle from me.
😉
[Edit] make that 3 issues... "3. publicly" [/Edit]
Cumbriamonkey: go see a lawyer, pay him some money and get a retraction of all this proposal drafted and state it was a silly Idea, I don't advocate this at all. Becuase when someone comes suing you, and they will, this entire exchange will be exhibit A. Seriously this poorly thought out and will end up costing you time and money. Next time you have a greta idea and want to put it out on social media, it might be worth getting advice first.
Personally I think the "Barrage of ****s" point is about the most concise descriptor for a group of STW users that I've read to date...
Lets be honest this "Debate" was never really going anywhere, try to make a reasoned point on here and your called names or miss-quoted, just thought I'd join the fun and try to earn an STW-ASBO so I could do some work... Ya great big ****-Chops!
The reason you jumped all over the OP of this thread is clearly the mention of Strava
As someone who seems to have done more than their fair share of the jumping (sorry about that) I can assure you that it has absolutely nowt to do with strava. In fact, I don't even get why you think it is - looking back on the comments, apart from a few "isn't that against strava T&Cs?" comments early on (and a few observations that it's perhaps sub-optimal as a timing system for races), the objections don't seem to have anything at all to do with strava, more the "promoting of illegal racing on bridleways" issue. Have you actually read the thread?
I don't even get what this has to do with strava, any more than it has to do with what tyres the guy on the video was using, or what video camera he shot it on. Am I missing something?
Ecky - your last reply made me smile sir
[edit - actually the only point I made above was that it was unwise to [i]publicly [/i]promote a race on a BW. It is, however, also unwise to promote a race on a BW. And it is also unwise to race on a BW]
this reminds me of the Wesley Crushers 🙂
wise words DrBob. Mr Monkey - this thread, your FB, your videos, are all evidence to be used against you by anyone with a mind to. You're making it easy for them.
@cookeaa you're losing it. calm down.
I do wonder if he's just trying to get the thread closed.
The main reason Strava threads attract earnest finger-wagging bores like myself is that until its invention, it was hard (if not impossible) to organise timed racing between people who didn't know each other on open multi-user trails. Now it's easy, but it encourages dickish riding, it makes mates' races and cheeky trails findable on Google, and accuracy issues mean the results are worthless. Is that a good thing?
And look at this FFS. [url= http://www.thecrankset.com/index.php/2013/01/22/seven-things-i-hate-about-strava/ ]From this supremely whiny article.[/url]
[img] 
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If you respond to this sort of marketing, then you should probably sell your bikes immediately.
Ahh, okay, I think I get it now, the "strava is bad" thing.
No, I don't get it, sorry. Like blaming the gun for a shooting, or the car for bad driving. You might as well blame the bike as the GPS tracking software. Surely it's riders being nobs that's issue, not their software?
Sorry, I'm still missing something, clearly. Don't explain it to me, I'm happy to stay perplexed by this one.
What's the matter, have you just gone Premium?
Hoping to beat my position of 24th in the dark tonight obviously I will only be racing myself and I will have two bright lights so the walkers can seem me coming.
Do i get bonus points for riding 7 miles to get there!
Mr Agreeable - I think your views on Strava are clear - there's a real danger that other concerns get lost in the bickering and points scoring over Strava and I think that would be wrong?
Having read the whole 3 pages of this...plus my own preconceptions/experience I have come to the following conclusions:
1) using strava for mates racing is probably just about OK assuming your mates are complete nobbers and will sacrifice their "strava run" when other trail users are about.
2) putting it on open social media/forums is f***** retarded.
3) The SSUK thing is probably not much better and asking for trouble if something goes wrong. Have a group[u] ride[/u] then a little minirace on private land if you must. But calling it a reliability trial but then putting a comment on an open forum that is really a race is really daft.
For the record:
Have I used strava? Yes
Do I quite like Strava? Sort of. I found myself competing against others and more to the point myself far too much and it took some of the joy out of my riding.
Do I think Strava is bad idea in general on BWs and cheeky trails? Yes. It'll end in tears soon enough.
It's hard being a grown-up sometimes, innit
You know what, I have faith that CTBM will organise a responsible event and manage the risks for himself, the riders and other trail users sensibly and professionally, no matter what he has said online to reassure the SSUK crowd that it will still be worth attending.
If the OP was my mate, I'd have said why bother.
There's a shed load of racing if that's what you want, and keep riding 'just riding'.
I kind of admire the OPs enthusiasm though, even if in my opinion it is misguided.
On a personal note I think it makes a mockery of the hard work done by those organizing 'proper' events.
And I always think this sort of competition to be a bit snide. It's unequal, inaccurate, open to manipulation, but worse of all anyone doing poor times can just say they weren't competing.
Just so you know, I do put a lot into the sport. One of the races we organised last year.
[img] 
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It's also the big events stretching the rules,
this one may have issues as IIRC they cross the bridleway through the site
http://www.whinlatterchallenge.co.uk/results.asp
time, postion, categories and I assume prizes, challenge or a race?
I'd imagine they'd have a shed load of permisions/insurance in place.
Yep it's on the BC site, so they're taking a slice of the pie.
I think it's a good idea, and if a segment appears near me I'll give it a go.
Organised races cost a fortune for various reasons, and most people don't give too much of a shit as they'll never win, although they'd still like to see where on the scale they did finish.
Strava offers all this on your doorstep ... for free!
I sometimes wonder if this forum is predominantly filled with lawyers and HSE employees.
Strava offers all this on your doorstep ... for free!
Using Strava isn't the issue here at all.
How about instead of promoting illegal racing on BW's, spend all that enthusiasm on getting access or building and/or maintaining legal trails?
If the OP published segments around here, and people got wind of it, it could set us back over ten years work getting some trails that folk travel from all over to ride.
Would you be happy to destroy all that work for this?
oldgit - MemberI'd imagine they'd have a shed load of permisions/insurance in place.
Yep it's on the BC site, so they're taking a slice of the pie.
obviously they don't cross the bridleway that runs through the site, BC are clear that no racing on or crossing Bridleways can happen for an MTB race my understanding is that you can't even get a closure of a Bridleway
as they don't comply with section 2.8 of this document
it must be a race surely not?
How about instead of promoting illegal racing on BW's, spend all that enthusiasm on getting access or building and/or maintaining legal trails?
one is "fun" and one is dull as dishwater and requires dealing with various stakeholder groups who will just maon at you 😉
I see that often broken, and wonder about it. The event I did Sunday lists the times along side an alphabetical list of names and no prizes.
Though again they'd be paying a levy ammongst other things.
Makes me glad I'm not in the UK anymore. Most of the recent races I have done have been on open trails with no closures at all. We are all asked to give way to others and not be ****s about it. We manage. There is strava based challenges on segments all over the world. Anywat I'm off to get my kom through the boeljng green back what tyres for mashing through pensioners?
I hear this years uk gravity Enduro series will be using Strava/smartphone apps for the timing system, can anyone confirm?
A great deal of this thread goes on about the op's challenge being possibly illegal. Amore valid point would be wether it does any harm or not. well maybe it might techniclly be not quite legal but when racing bicycles became illegal on B/W nobody would have dreamed of a strava segment type event, it would have ben head to head racing with multiple contestants, maybe not such a good idea. Over a month people turning up at random and doing what they've always done, not what the law makers had in mind I'm sure. Maybe not on here but out in the wide world, most people don't realy give a stuff about breaking some technical aspect of law if they feel no harm is being done by thier actions. I don't think the op's event will do that anymore than a lot of other riding. You'd probably be hard pushed to even notice anything was going on. Unlike big " legal " events with hundreds of competitors wich can seriously disrupt other peoples ability to enjoy a place as they see fit.
Legal; riding along a BW with no ulterior motive and abiding by the ROW.
Cheeky; What a lot of us actually do anyway.
Illegal; Racing on a BW.
I might be over reacting, but if everyone took the OPs view places like Woburn would now be fenced off and bulldozed land, and not great trails and jumps as it is now.
I might be over reacting, but if everyone took the OPs view places like Woburn would now be fenced off and bulldozed land, and not great trails and jumps as it is now.
I know you ride a lot and care about the sport OG, but I think you and a lot of people are over reacting to this. Its for a month, people will ride as they allways do, but at the end of the month someone gets a box of tea. The bulldozers wont move in, and apart from those in the know nothing will have happened.
You'd probably be hard pushed to even notice anything was going on.
Except for the Facebook page, the videos, and the forum postings that is.
For anyone wanting to make an issue of bike access to the trails, it's a gift.
I know you ride a lot and care about the sport OG, but I think you and a lot of people are over reacting to this. Its for a month, people will ride as they allways do, but at the end of the month someone gets a box of tea. The bulldozers wont move in, and apart from those in the know nothing will have happened
it depends, if you have a militant rambler/ horserider there will be formal complaints going into the local council/highways/PROW team if they get a whift of it. All written from an informed understanding of the relevant legislation and probably a confontational approach to the council etc
I hear this years uk gravity Enduro series will be using Strava/smartphone apps for the timing system, can anyone confirm?
Can't make it any less accurate 🙂 if I was entering I'd be using a garmin to check for massive errors.
I'm in two minds about this one really. I do think the organisers have been pretty foolish/naive to not even try and claim its not a race, and no disclaimers about riding safely etc. That is also a fairly poor choice for a segment IMO as it often gets really busy with walkers, being right by Ambleside. Definitely could end up being used as ammo by those wanting to limit access for bikes.
On the other hand some of the criticism on here is pretty OTT, and it is interesting to note the different treatment of CTBM. Nicely shot video btw.
open to manipulation
You think? 😈
this one may have issues as IIRC they cross the bridleway through the site
My understanding is that there isn't any issue with crossing a bridleway during a race. I've taken part in events where bridleways have been OOB due to the legal situation, but we've been allowed to cross them. It's certainly not illegal to do so. BC rules may say something different, but they don't apply to a lot of events.
On the other hand some of the criticism on here is pretty OTT, and it is interesting to note the different treatment of CTBM. Nicely shot video btw.
Maybe yes, it doesn't anger me or anything, and it shows some passion. It's the way the OP has waded in. I think the OP believes this is a free country 😉 And has broken the unwritten rules of cheeky'ness.
I wish I could offer advice or something, but I don't think you can take racing and riding and mix them together, it's not that the end result doesn't taste nice, it's just pointless.
I'm with cookieaa here. This site has frequently been wonderful, but this thread epitomises everything that is wrong with some long standing members on here who feel the need to object to pretty much everything that fits in with their idea of mountain biking (unless it comes from a name they recognise).
I'm afraid that for most people these days mountain biking is about going as fast as is reasonable on descents, it has moved on from slogging around the edges of fields on a Marin Mount Vision. I know that 10 years ago when I joined STW I was riding much tamer trails on a much less capable bike, and judging by the bikes being shown in the "What bike have you got threads" I know most people have also progressed. Now things have moved on and this is how it is, and being backward about it will not stop fun things like unofficial races like this happening.
No one will sue anyone. Everything will be fine. It's not even really racing any more than what Strava does already. People will ride the trail as fast as they ever have, perhaps even as fast as they did before they rode it with Strava. Strava is not really making people change how they ride, the people that use it were always riding as fast as they could. Which is, for all but a few who are out for the view, the point of riding bicycles down hills. You see a walker, you slow down. Simple. We all do it, have done for years and this doesn't change anything.
And mates have been racing mates on trails for years, pretty much every time they go out together. Sometimes they say it's a race, usually they don't. It's still competing with each other.
I hope this goes well for you OP, I will certainly have a crack at some of it if I'm up that way and not riding a big old mountain. And as someone who has organised more official events I don't consider this to make a mockery of what I do, it's a totally different thing.
OP has been naive in calling his informal bit of fun a 'race', that's all.
But if 'racing' along BWs is the epitome of evil, how are the organisers of [url= http://www.xcracer.com/raceentry/viewevent.php?event_id=436 ]this[/url] going to manage? I'm wondering how they will create a long route around here that will avoid all BWs and FPs and still be any good. And it's definitely badged as a race.
I hear this years uk gravity Enduro series will be using Strava/smartphone apps for the timing system, can anyone confirm?
If that's true (and I smell a wind-up) it's pretty poor. Imagine if other cycling events were timed to within 15m accuracy. World Cup DH? Road race bunch sprints?
Sorry yeah I was joking, thought it would be obvious. 🙂
if 'racing' along BWs is the epitome of evil
No-one's arguing that. I've done plenty of events like the HONC which use BWs and even private land, but these are advertised beyond groups of mates on Facebook, marshalled at crossings, permissions are obtained, the emphasis is on the challenge rather than pinning it, and they're only for one day a year. To compare them to open "challenges" that demand people to go out and treat a short open section of bridleway like a closed DH track is missing the point by a mile.
My understanding is that there isn't any issue with crossing a bridleway during a race. I've taken part in events where bridleways have been OOB due to the legal situation, but we've been allowed to cross them. It's certainly not illegal to do so. BC rules may say something different, but they don't apply to a lot of events.
If you cross a bridleway you are "on" it and therefore fall foul of the relevant legislation
It's not just BC with this view, I've seen it from other sources.
A high profile example was the Manchester Commonwealth Games where the course was heavily constrained because it could not [b]cross[/b] the bridleways in the area
Hyperbole on my part, I admit - but it remains that permission cannot be granted at any level for cycle racing on bridleways, regardless of marshalling and insurance. It's possible the event I linked avoids BWs altogether (wondering how though!) and has got the permissions to use FPs, but even so, it's badged as a race, and that means that plenty of folk will be trying to push it hard, even if some are treating it as a distance challenge.
I take your point about extending the 'race' over a month, but I'm struggling to see how walkers having to look out for hundreds of riders racing on one weekend day is much better than a handful of facebookers scattered sporadically over a longer period.
Not sure I'd be that interested in either event (the OP should think about maybe including a climb or two rather than just descents), but the opprobrium that has been heaped on him seems OTT to me.
I do find it interesting how differently CTBM's event is being treated by some here. He's admitted that really it's a race, and will be using public ROW, and from what people have said it sounds like there will be a fair bit of alcohol involved.
Drunk bearded guy on a SS bike takes out a walker on a BW doing something that looks suspicuously like a race? I highly doubt in those circumstances any insurance policy will be worth the paper it's written on. Oh but it's ok someone did a risk assessment on the back of a fag packet.
Usual STW double standards in full effect.