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Just yesterday I bought a wee hardtail for my other half. I stuck the tag-a-long on the back for our youngest and we headed off to christen it. Nothing too technical as the plan is to break her in gently. Fairly tame off-roading with a few hills thrown in. On the main she enjoyed it, but did call me a few names when a little detour turned into a narrow nettle-fest. She wasn't put off by the mud or flies or the uncomfortable saddle. Quite the opposite.
I doubt she'll be joining me on any 'extreme' rides - it would likely spoil it for both of us, but as a form of enjoyable exercise I'd say she's hooked.
Surreal thread. Generalising, I see I'm meant to be white, middle class, under 40 (ha), have children, not want bruises, be reluctant to be seen with a sweat on, have no interest in taking care of myself on the trail, not want to get muddy and wet cleaning my bike, and have little interest in being in the saddle for more than an hour. Shoot me now.
Alienate? Utter tosh.
The ladies get their own specific bikes, clothing and races, and toilets.
While they have money the industry will cater for them.
Ladies have always been welcome on every group ride I have ever been on.
This feels like one of those crappy daytime tv shows were we waste our time on a non existent argument.
The only shocking thing I have seen was the lady winners at Bristol bike fest got a set of pedros brushes to share between the team. Low value prize, broken up and shared, a brush, all that work for a brush. They could have thrown in some marigolds and a pinny.
'if you don't crash you're not trying hard enough'
So true. I find there is no correlation between crashing and improving. Crashing just means you're riding really badly, not thinking things through, and basically that something serious is going wrong!
You don't see rowers (one of my other sports) saying "ooh, if you don't sink you're not improving". Mountaineers: "falling off the mountain. Rad!". So why in mountain biking? It does harm the sport's image I think.
Another significant thing that I know for a fact alienates a lot of my friends (male and female) from trying riding, in the Alps at least? Stupid body armour and full face gear. It does alienate people.
So having mulled it over some more I still consider the original premise a flawed one, that MTBing is poorer for a lack of Female participation...
Surely the very nature of the activity sort of requires a bit of "Machismo" whether you are male or Female, it is after all taking bicycles and riders out of their urban environment and into the muddy, undulating, tree ridden wilderness, the perceived increase in risk (Perceived because I consider Road riding ultimately more dangerous, but that's another debate) must prompt a degree of brash, and slightly more aggressive behaviour; seen by many here as putting Women participants off.
MTB by it's very nature isn't a "Timid" sport, and I don't think it is particularly fair to Women to assume they are mostly unable to handle a bit of Machismo, Horse riding, where Women are better represented, is not a sport for softies... Water MTBing down to the point where it lacks the danger and risk factor disappear and it's no longer MTBing, and I'm still not sure you would attract more Female to the sport...
I think the underepresentation of Women is understandable, when you try to put the Sport/activity in a wider social context, perhaps even acceptable? What I mean the sport is what it is, it has many sub-disciplines and variations and if none of these appeals to the majority of Western Females then is there much point in challenging that? Not that I'd argue for maintaining the Status-Quo, but the assumption that the culture of a sport is flawed in some way because there are fewer female participants, rather than considering the posibility that it simlpy doesn't chime with wider Societal norms for Females seems a little short sighted...
What I think is of more concern is the Ethnic make up of MTBing, if we accept what Sue_W's research indicates which is that income is not a major barrier to participation, then why is MTBing largely White? Not that a gender inbalance is in someway more acceptable, but it is at least easier to understand...
Speaking personally MTBing is what I would consider an "Alternative" sport ie not Football, Rugby, Tennis, Cricket, and not being part of the mainstream sporting culture of the UK has always made me think of the sport as more open and accepting of difference, not that I haven't ridden with people of different ethnic backgrounds, but most of the faces at any race or on any ride are White, Perhaps the White Male Machismo factor puts of more than just Female participants...
The only shocking thing I have seen was the lady winners at Bristol bike fest got a set of pedros brushes to share between the team. Low value prize, broken up and shared, a brush, all that work for a brush. They could have thrown in some marigolds and a pinny.
When I won the fun solo class at Bristol a few years ago, I got a pair of man's riding gloves. I kid you not. 😡
Listen to the Ladies DH commentary from the last round and for the majority of it, you get Rob Warner talking about how the guys are gonna be riding the course better. I don't really GAS when I am watching the ladies - I want to know how they are doing and how they compare to each other.
Specific bikes for women? Yeah, mostly bottom of the range with shite components. Look at the Lapierre range this year.....I want a carbon Zesty with a shorter top tube. Can I get one, can I heck! Test rides are a nightmare - I gave up trying to sort anything for a DH bike test ride wise as everything comes with male sized coils and it's clearly just far too much hassle for shops to change them round.
TBH, the industry/mags/films alienate women. The guys on the trail rarely do*. Although, saying that, I do have a habit of organising rides to make damn sure I am included. I also feel blessed that when I started riding a few years ago I did so through meeting people from a very friendly forum where egos are small, but hearts and love for riding is huge. They nurtured me through many tantrums, panic attacks and injuries to make me the rider I am. And they were all guys - it's only recently I have got to ride in all female groups. The (overall) contrasting views/attitudes and reasons for riding between the ladies and men are massive, but neither is right or wrong, and both ladies and men have the ability to love and hate the sport equally.
I do think not being technologically talkative may alienate women from the male side of things on a male dominated ride. It's only as my riding has improved I've started to appreciate things like bike set-up. Now I can hold a three hour conversation about the most appropriate tyre combination for any given trail conditions, the merits of less damping and whether to move to 1x10 I feel much more included in proceedings. 😆
*as a note: expect certain husbands/boyfriends who stick their misses on a dodgy bike, shout at her that 'even my nan could ride that' and leave her behind. Oh, and organised groups that say 'all inclusive ride, all welcome' and then leave the female member of the group lost on the first climb. Yes, this kind of stuff really does happen!
Oh, and after that minor rant up there^ I am still gonna write an essay about the issue!
was that a woman that told you that? I don't know many blokes who care! The women I know who MTB range from glamorous to downright scruffy - but none of them are fat which is always a turn off (indeed many of them are in better shape than their husbands). Attractiveness is all relative - and not only are they "better looking" than average, but they are also are much more "appealing" than the average woman since they have things in common, don't usually talk about the X-factor and bigbrother etc.oh and Poly re: 'in general women that mtb are better looking than the average population' - I'm afraid from my experience that might be a minority view - I've been told I'm not feminine cos I don't wear enough make up
Sue - I think if you ask most guys then stockings are sexy so thats only an extra bonus!and another 'friend' insisted I wore stockings at her wedding cos I was bound to have bruises or cuts on my legs and that 'wouldn't look good'!
I am intrigued how you gather your data though? Is this through "surveys"? How do you correct for the fact that if some guy goes MTBing 3 times a year then he probably ticks the "regular mountain biker" box but if a woman goes MTBing 4 times a year then she probably goes - "only very occasionally", i.e. are there differing degrees of honesty in the genders...
Also how do you define mountainbiking? Different people will have different interpretations (and again an average bloke probably exaggerates the difficulty of what he rides!). Do the sexes agree on the definition? IMHO anything which is not on road/sustrans path probably qualified (although I reserve the right to slag anyone off who claims to have been serious mountainbiking without ever going up mountains!). I wonder if women have the same interpretation - and assume it has to be more adverturous/arduous/dangerous than a ride in woods or bridleway in the hills.
Not withstanding that - presumably there is some varied distribution of how much time people spend on their MTBs. Do women and men's distributions follow the same shape? I'd certainly believe that women do it less than men (because of the time pressures etc).
Any comments on how access to Bike-to-work scheme may influence female participation? It is widely accepted the BTW has increased the number of bike owners and users - whilst it is not designed to increase MTB activity, there is enough anecdotal evidence here and elsewhere that it does. BTW favours high earners more - I believe there are more male high earners. BTW is not possible for "stay at home mums". Part time workers (more Women) are less likely to use BTW as it sacrafices a bigger chunk of earnings. Minimum wage workers (I'd guess this may be more women?) may not be eligible. Some large public sector employers have been very slow to get involved in BTW. Public sector employees will not usually benefit from the VAT saving. I'd guess that there are more women in the public sector than men (although that may just be the bits I deal with). Those time pressures on Women may also make them less inclined to cycle to work.
Generalising, I see I'm meant to be white, middle class, under 40
I think you miss the point there somewhat!
My own private belief is that mountain biking appeals because it's a pack behaviour territory-claiming activity
Total rubbish. I ride alone, and whenever I see bikers they are usually alone too or very occasionally in pairs.
Can't agree that women are alienated at all, at a basic leisure activity level.
I've been very surprised recently while 'on standby' at a crossover point of the C2C as to how many women are now cycling. I would say 30-40% of cyclists I see are women, with many in groups of 4 or more. In mixed groups however, the proportion of women is very small, or in most cases non-existent. I would suspect that the reasons are many but I think the main one is the fact that male groups tend to go at a quicker pace and appear to be taking it much more seriously.
One thing which is very apparent from my observations is that almost all the women seem to be enjoying it, whereas some of the men really look as though they aren't and it's some sort of ordeal that they have to endure!
Oh, there is also a marked difference in bike and gear spend and it's quite unusual to see a women on anything more than a entry level bike. That could be more of a reflection on the route than anything else though.
poly - the data comes from a national household survey on participation in all outdoor pursuits / recreation which is run by the agency I work for (we are a government funded body that act as independent advisors at the national level). There are 3 of these surveys in the UK - I am responsible for managing the one for Wales, and co-ordinate with my colleagues who run similar surveys in England and Scotland.
All the surveys are methodologically the same as other national surveys that you might have heard of (eg the British Crime Survey). They have very large sample sizes, use RDD (a form of statistical random selection), and are subsequently weighted to be representative of the current population demographics. This means that although over 6000 people were interviewed, their responses are representative of the population as a whole. It's rare to have data which is this robust as it's very expensive and time consuming to do, so most other surveys use a smaller number of respondents and less robust sampling techniques, which unfortunately compromises the validity of the results. This makes collecting statistically valid data on schemes like BtW rather difficult, so I tend to use macro-scale data from national surveys to monitor participation and change.
In terms of what counted as 'participating', the survey I work on uses 3 levels of questions - one asks about what outdoor activities you have undertaken at least once in the last 12 months, then what you have done in the last 4 weeks, and finally what activity you have done most recently. What we have found is that the 'gender difference' gets greater between the 12 month / 4 week frequency - ie women's participation relative to mens drops significantly between 'occassional' and 'frequent' participation. Defining different forms of cycling was quite complicated (as it was for many other types of outdoor pursuits). After a lot of preparatory research, we used to 'main categories' - defined as 'off-road cycling and / or mountain biking', and 'road / tarmac cycle-path based cycling'. Under these primary categories we have a range of sub-categories that enable me to identify the type of off-road cycling / mountain biking that has been done (ie whether it was using an unsurfaced cycle track, bridleway, or purpose-build single track).
I'm currently just reviewing some very extensive results of detailed multivariate analysis on participation in both mountain biking and road cycling, that will be looking at the statisically significant differences in participation across all socio-demographic groups, motivations, barriers, latent demand, and other factors such as the distance poeple travel to ride and who they ride with. If you want to know more (before I send the entire forum to sleep!), contact me at work: su.williams@ccw.gov.uk
Sue, thanks for the comprehensive answer. I suspect you are far from sending the forum to sleep - rather your input has been some of the most interesting I've read on STW for weeks!
Attractiveness is all relative - and not only are they "better looking" than average, but they are also are much more "appealing" than the average woman since they have things in common, don't usually talk about the X-factor and bigbrother etc.
"Better looking" and "appealing" are, indeed, subjective. For example, I disagree completely with you - I've seen/met very few female bikers I've found to be attractive! I would agree though that guys don't care whether someone's glammed up on a bike. I used to date a girl who insisted she put on her fake tan before going riding as she was self-concious about the colour of her legs - totally ridiculous when they're going to get muddy/scratched/bruised anyway!
The only shocking thing I have seen was the lady winners at Bristol bike fest got a set of pedros brushes to share between the team. Low value prize, broken up and shared, a brush, all that work for a brush. They could have thrown in some marigolds and a pinny.
shocking I agree, we are a two bit local grass roots race series. We have worked hard to to get prize equality first supported by Bardon aggregates and Leisure Lakes and now Cooksons Cycles our Racing Diva podium for race one got a total of £200 of Cooksons Cycles vouchers, (the blokes get the same value of Leisure Lakes vouchers) with Adela Carter walking off with £25 for the first lap prime and £100 for the win. If she keeps racing and winning the series prize of a set of Hope SPXC6 wheels is hers as well.
(sorry no marigolds or pinny :wink:) not bad for less than a couple of hours racing
We have shown that the sponsors are supportive and that if organisers push it prize parity is possible.
See you (all) on the start line www.brownbacksracing.co.uk race 2 24th July
Sue W - finally someone who's trying to bring some sense to cycling stats. Never mind the gender splits information gathering about mountain biking has always been pitiful at best.
@globalti (and others)
You know I had no idea that this shit was going on! (and I'm not disputing it). Because my sister was into MTB before I was, I took her lead. And she usually had a better bike than I did, as I had to budget for a car and she lived in the peaks already with no need for one. So I've never seen it as a male thing.
My advice is, given that I have never witnessed any of this stuff, is avoid clubs and go and do your own ride! I don't compete with anyone on spec, talent or fitness. And my MTB world is fully inclusive, as long as there isn't too many on one ride. I hate crowds.
Have tried to skim-read some of the responses... and have failed, so I'm going to be very simplistic in my response to the OP:
-I find riding on my own gets very boring after a while.
-I have no girl-friends who would ride with me regularly - only one of them exercises with any regularity. I have taken three friends to Glentress and they enjoyed it immensely, but they would never spend the money and time on getting their own bike.
-I really like riding with my boyfriend - he is the only male I feel comfortable riding with because I don't feel bad for holding him up. Unfortunately he is much more interested in racing SDAs so there's not much opportunity for day-trips out somewhere.
-I hate bike maintenance. (I can handle cleaning it and that's it)
-Appearance whilst riding really doesn't bother me; nor does the mud/sweatiness factor. However, I get very cold and miserable very quickly if it's absolutely soaking. I'm quite like my looks but I also seem to scar very easily which is probably a contributory factor when it comes to 'the fear of falling off and hitting a big pointy rock'
-I'm a girl and I don't like to get hurt.
None of these reasons suggest alienation to me at all. My own guilt for holding people up has never really been directly triggered from of a riding companion's response - all the men I've ridden with have been very patient and friendly. Having listed so many reasons that put me off mtb I can completely understand why a lot of women don't want to stick at it - As already mentioned, the girls I've taken biking have really enjoyed themselves - but my group of mates (me included) don't really have hobbies like men do. If I had no girl-friends I think I would spend a lot more time focused on one activity, having noticed that my OH spends most of his spare time biking with his mates, where as I spend most of my spare time biking/exercising [b]or[/b] with my mates doing something else.
So yes, lots of reasons why people don't mtb: looking at my own personal reasons I can see why it would put off proportionally more women than men. I don't care about the sport in a collective sense because I don't feel like a part of any community yet. Must be a virtuous cycle - the more women you have involved; the more likely their friends are to participate. From what I've seen there are plenty of women-oriented activities being organised and I think it'll all help female bikers find regular cycling partners- through introduction or just by meeting-up with people already biking. (Guess I personally just find it hard to make friends!)
Why are people even talking about women mountain bikers' appearance here? All I know is that I ride with some immensely capable women riders and generally their attitude is less ridiculously competitive than the blokes I know, which is refreshing. I don't know if women are 'alienated' by mountain biking, but if they are, it can only be a bad thing. I don't recognise the stereotypes of women riders a lot of posters seem to be fixated on. But that's just my experience.
Beyond that, much of this thread seems to be fluffy, anecdotal, opinionated, self-referential crap. It puts me off mountain biking... 😉
Some interesting discussion and thanks Sue_W for injecting some statistical discipline in.
What I'm struggling with from the OP is around "holding back the sport" - holding it back from what?
Maybe becoming the new football? I'd hardly call that progress.
It seems to me (purely anecdotal) is that more people are on bikes both on and off road now than 10 years ago.
A greater percentage appear to be women (although I live near Brighton where it can be hard to tell 😆 ).
There are more people on the hills now generally perhaps due to a wider social trend of outdoor health.
(on my grumpier days I don't regard this as progress & think about regressing into an uber-niche of letting my hair grow whilst riding a single-speed 69'er with drop handles)
Why are people even talking about women mountain bikers' appearance here? All I know is that I ride with some immensely capable women riders and generally their attitude is less ridiculously competitive than the blokes I know, which is refreshing.
Agreed. Often I find the people having the most fun are the ones not being too competitive. I struggle to get competitive at all when it comes to mountain biking, which I think explains why I still love it after all these years. Spent my teens trying to be competitive, and failing, playing rugby and I lost the love for it.
And in general, I think it's fair to say most women have a less overtly competitive nature. Well this is my observation of women I know who ride at least (my ex GF being the exception, she is the worlds most competitive person!), ad in general they often seem to be having more fun! Or at least just enjoying it for what it is, riding bikes in the woods...
This means that although over 6000 people were interviewed, their responses are representative of the population as a whole.
Sorry to question something, now you love me so much and all (still envious of the job by the way), but is this 6000 supposed to be representative of the whole of the UK? I'd class myself as intermediate to advanced in terms of my statistics knowledge and ability, but I've worked with and for people who blow your mind, including GE Master Black Belts, and I know that there is all sorts of research and evidence into what constitutes a representative sample size, and it's of the order of at least 10%. So i'd expect to see a sample size of approximately 6,000,000 when referring to the UK population as a whole, 6,000 doesn't come close! Who is determining the sample sizes? As for data to be meaningful and not pointless, we need to collect the correct data and quantities of it in the first place, otherwise it's no better than heresay and conjecture, or in worse cases still can be manipulated by govt spin doctors to send the message that they want the people to hear, even if it's totally wrong... "Lying with statistics it's called", and sadly it's all too easy to do! Read up into why the Challenger Space Shuttle disaster occurred for a tragic example of lying with statistics in use.
Sounds like a load of tosh and waffle to me.
Just my experience of what non mountain biking people often think of the sport/pastime we know and love. Those of us that partake often view things through Rose tinted specs because we love it. On the face of it, the sport is predominantly middle aged White men riding bikes around in a loop, to Mr. average down the pub it is no more appealing, glamourous or cool than playing Golf, hillwalking or any other healthy outdoorsy pastime. Hence why Mr. Average sits in the pub, drinking beer, shouting at the footy on the telly. He can relate to that as he once scored a goal for the under 13's when he was at school, but can't relate to taking proper exercise in the countryside or doing anything remotely strenuous... That's just not cool! 😉
It's all about perception...
Seriously interesting topic and great responses everyone, I've really enjoyed reading this.
A little while back I went to see [url= http://www.resetfilms.co.uk/ ]Find[/url] and Home films, showing in Glasgow. I went with my then girlfriend, who was just getting into riding. While we both enjoyed the films, there was one section that stood out: a section of a couple riding in Mabie I think it was. This husband and wife were stressing the social, non-competetive, non aggressive side of riding. It stood out partly because it featured a woman (!) and because it was a refreshing change from the competitive crap and the drinking and one upmanship or most mtb media. It felt relaxed and fun.
That section was immediately followed by a load of crash footage from some race. I could of cried.
mboy - final sample size of 6045, achieved from a 21% response rate. It is representative of the adult population (16+) living in Wales, whilst the English and Scottish surveys are similarly representative of their adult populations. Generally, there is no standard minimum, eg 10% of population, for a representative sample, as the sample size is dependent on the amount of change you are wanting to measure, and therefore on the confidence intervals, which are in turn affected by weighting for bias. Bias is in itself dependent on your sampling technique and the weighting you use (we have to use two different weights for different question sections within the survey).
The sampling a weighting of the Welsh survey has been particularly complex in order to ensure it is statistically valid at a population level as we need the data to also be representative of overlapping geographical regions (and developing a sampling and weighting frame for overlapping areas is a bit of a 'mare!). I'm the Head of Social Science here, so have a reasonable grasp of statisitcs, but my main areas of expertise are on research development, analysis and interpretation, not pure statistics, so for this one I commissioned the Chief Statistician at Ipsos Mori (probably the largest survey company in the UK) to work on ensuring it is representative. It's also classified as 'official statistics' (to be used in government policy) so has to pass the standards and scrutiny of the independent UK Statistics Authority.
I think I have now out-spodded myself!
why is MTBing largely white?
I always wondered about this in the context of hill-walking, climbing, paddling, in fact just about all outdoor leisure activities I've been doing.
Any research/theories about this Sue?
buzz-lightyear - Memberwhy is MTBing largely white?
I always wondered about this in the context of hill-walking, climbing, paddling, in fact just about all outdoor leisure activities I've been doing.
Any research/theories about this?
i think this is largely down to how people are introduced to any passtime, most people gain this introduction through a friend/relative that already has some experience. without an established base of people doing something and the acceptance that goes with it it must be pretty hard to get someone from a minority into something that is not normally part of their community.
horse riding seems to have many parallels to mtb, lots of maintenance, dirty and sweaty with an element of risk and danger so why is it a mainly female thing to do?
buzz-lightyear - Memberwhy is MTBing largely white?
I always wondered about this in the context of hill-walking, climbing, paddling, in fact just about all outdoor leisure activities I've been doing.
Cultural. There's actually a National Parks initiative called The Mosaic Project which aims to increase the number of visitors to National Parks from ethnic minorities, by working with community leaders, arranging organised visits and so on.
The premise behind it is, as I understand it, that a lot of urban-based, ethnic minority communities don't have a culture of going into the outdoors. Youngsters aren't introduced to it in the same way as they might be in other circumstances and so on.
It seems to enrage a lot of people. Personally I think it's a brilliant initiative and when you look at the amount of money we spend on bombs, missiles and MPs' expenses, it's a drop in the ocean.
I've seen black and Middle Eastern people on Holmbury before
Waiting for someone to say "enrichment"
jhw - Member
I've seen black and Middle Eastern people on Holmbury before
i've seen a dog on a skateboard before.
There is some very interesting comment on here and some very rubbish ones as well. But lets face it. What the STW dwellers think is just not representative at all about the mtbing community.
Go to any "big" event, how many people have never heard about stw? Plenty. How many people actually post on STW well very little as well. I bet very few people talk to elf knowing he was "The elf from stw". Out of interest, LBS owners, how many people said they are on stw? I bet very few.
i've seen a dog on a skateboard before.
Racist. 😀
It's been interesting to see how many of the stw female mtbers don't enjoy or know how to maintain or look after their bikes. I'm one of them and am quite ashamed that hubby does all the upkeep, servicing and looking after the bikes.
I do clean them and can change an innter tube if I get a flat but apart from that, all the info he gives me seems to go in one ear and out of the other. It's not being lazy, as I end up doing all the house type things, it seems to suit us.
Maybe because my actual job is very female orientated.
I think I have now out-spodded myself!
Can I ask Sue, are you single? I think I've just fallen in love! 😉
Seriously though, fair play you know your subject but I am still a little surprised by what I consider to still be a small sample. You're bang on correct, sample size really can depend on the significance of the change you're trying to see, but I've always taken the approach that too much data is better than too little. Suppose I've been lucky enough though that any statistical analysis I've ever done, all my data has come out of a machine, and I've only had to interrogate access databases and excel spreadsheets to get the data I needed, not wait on actual people to actually respond to a questionnaire!
You're right, a bigger sample would be much better! Unfortunately it really expensive to run 'human' surveys, and I can't see my budget getting any bigger over the next few years.
The down side is that in some areas, the sub-sample sizes are too small for statistically robust analysis. One of those areas is in relation to 'non- white' demographic groups. Collectively, only 2% of the adult population in Wales is from non-White ethnic groups, so I can't do any analysis. Especially as there is obviously a huge diversity of different ethnic groups and cultures within that 2%, and assuming that all of them are the same would be rather wrong!
There's been some interesting qualitative research that's been done on perceptions and preferences of different ethnic groups towards participation in outdoor pursuits and use of the 'countryside'. But overall I think our starting point should be to understand people's preferences first, and then consider whether what is currently offered as 'outdoor recreation' today really meets the needs of the diversity of people in the UK, or just the preferences of a traditional minority?
Oh, and happily* single ... probably due to not being a proper girl and going out biking rather than shopping, plus being a bit of a research spod ... I suspect neither are considered particularly sexy by the majority of guys!
* most of the time - having a bit of a blip today as I'm trying to deal with some rather bad news and a hug or shoulder to lean on would be kinda nice right now ... but I'm going to WTFU and go out for a ride now ..,
There is some very interesting comment on here and some very rubbish ones as well. But lets face it. What the STW dwellers think is just not representative at all about the mtbing community.
Its probably a fair comment about STW bias - the forum is kind of James May as mountain biking.
But overall I think our starting point should be to understand people's preferences first, and then consider whether what is currently offered as 'outdoor recreation' today really meets the needs of the diversity of people in the UK, or just the preferences of a traditional minority?
This is where I have doubts about the inclusion programmes - great but also you do wonder if its just another form of cultural imperialism. Despite this niggle I'd still think they are a good idea so long as the are providing informed choice.
I got my hubby into mtb'ing, and am much more likely to a) spend ages researching new bike bits or b) be found fettling than he is. I have noticed an increase in the number of women I see out and about in the few years I have been riding, but I think that part of the problem is that generally women don't get to dump the kids with the spouse while they beetle off riding for the day (certainly the case with my ex riding friends). Another issue is that for the same level of fitness guys are generally faster and stronger than women, so if you ride with men because the women are doing childcare you get fed up with feeling like you're holding everyone up, again. I only ride with my hubby, coz he has to put up with me, it's in the contract, and the only time I've been faster than him uphill I was training for a marathon & substantially fitter. I'm lots faster than him downhill though!! As a sweeping generalisation, I think women are less interested in the competetive aspect of the sport, that's certainly the case for the limited number of mtb'ing men & women I know. I have absolutely no desire to compete with anyone other than myself.
Does it hold the sport back? Proof?
Look, life is short, don't give the men/women thing any energy, just go and ride yer bike, I don't give a shit about whether the PEOPLE I ride with are men or women (or black/white/yellow/brown/fat/thin/tall/short/hairy/bald/rich/poor)
I forgot, I hate the golf analogy, golf is about social climbing,biking isn't.
Hmm! I'm female and have mtb'd for last 6 years after a break for about 10 years whilst being pregnant and looking after small children. Oh yes! I mtb'd on a fully rigid 40lb (probably) steel bike in the 90's and was never aware that I wasn't supposed to ride on footpaths.
Women are not the same as men. This shows in physiological testing (such as men have a higher VO2 capacity, which allows greater supply of oxygen to the muscles) and quite often out on the trails. The reason many women, myself included will let someone - who may be a man - overtake them, is because I enjoy riding far more without someone impatiently following me.
I am far less competitive than my husband, but I still am competitive, but pick my 'fights' as I have less resources in speed, strength and technical skills. I find I generally push myself harder when riding with faster riders who may be men or women, due to this competitive edge and not wanting to be the 'weakest link' for all of the ride. I also really enjoy riding in groups where the pace is sociable and it may take several hours longer to do a ride than usual. I enjoy both sorts of rides and it adds to the overall appeal of mountain biking for me. It doesn't matter too much what the mix is of male / female
Some blokes are idiots on bikes and very intolerant and so are some women.
1 of the few times I have felt overpowered by the male side of mtbing was one weekend at Afan, where the testosterone could be smelt for miles and it took me a little while to settle, but I soon realised it was nothing to worry about.
Industry wise - I fit men's bikes better than womens, so have no issues there, enter very few events and never win prizes and was unaware they were so rubbish.
I think a lot of it is about individuals - those women who want to ride and be out of their comfort zone, get cold and muddy, have bruises and cuts to hide at weddings etc will do.
I think there are so many opportunities for women to ride nowadays, they would have to look to themselves for reasons not to ride, but I am very biased.
golf is about social climbing
Where did you get that idea from - TV/film stereotypes maybe? Golfers come from all walks of life 🙄
It's the type of men that MTB that are "holding back the sport". I'm a hot, fit bloke and I bike with loads of chicks. You lot must be right munters. Stop being geeks that spend all your time on the internets and being insular, body concious hypochondriacs and have some fun. The chicks will flock to the sport. Hope this helps.
Woody: the firm I work for, do we have mountainbiking days? No, we do not. Do we have golf days? Yes, we do. Do we have golf tournaments with potential/important clients? Yes, we do. Do we make/cement lots of contacts on the golf course? Yes, we do. Are lots of our clients fellow golf club members? Oh, yes, they are.*
So, no, not from film/tv, from real life.
This is representative of the industry, and of the industries of the clients. Fact.
This is representative of the industry, and of the industries of the clients. Fact.
There is some business done on the golf course just as some business is done in pubs. Does that mean everyone who goes to the pub is a social climber?
You can't tar everyone who plays golf with the same brush, anymore than you can say mtb's are the preserve of middle class white males!
I'll be honest I haven't read all 6 pages of this post but I'll put in my twopenn'orth if that's ok.
I'm a female rider and at the moment I ride with a group on a Sunday morning when I can. A couple of weeks ago there were 5 of us out, and that's fairly normal. Yes, we stop and chat about sections but it's a mixed ability group and sometimes we want to session a spot so we can get better. That doesn't always happen with the blokes.
However, on that Sunday there were women all about the place riding in groups or with male partners/friends (I didn't ask). i actually commented on how many I'd seen.
I don't ride as much as I'd like but that's not because I feel alienated but because I have a small child. I no longer do the evening or all day rides I used to. My hubby (and riding buddy) and I last went out together months ago as we tag team parent on rides now.
I love fettling my bike but don't have the time because Baby Kip wants me as soon as I start to do anything focussed away from her (even if she's been playing happily prior to that!!)
What holds back women in biking is often their guilt at taking time for themselves away from their family. They often feel they should be the main care-giver and, as Dad is often works long hours as the main wage earner, feel Dad deserves the time-out more than they do. I'm lucky that Mr Kip is massively supportive and lets me have as much time as I want, but TBH I don't want to take the p*ss as he deserves the break as much as me. We compromise and as such get out maybe once a week if we're lucky.
I love riding my bike for the fun, the dirt, the exercise and the social side of riding with men and women.