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Actually, the mtb demographic IS middle-class white males.
I bet there are a lot more people who just go to the pub for a drink than folk who go to the golf course just to play golf.
ENOUGH! Let's just chill and ride? (irrespective of gender)
My ex came from Wales, he was very keen on golf (and good at it) - he never played a single stroke here (home counties) because he just couldn't get his head around the social climbing aspect of it.
That is rather sad KoF because I played fairly regularly round your area and I can safely say that there wasn't a single person I played with who viewed it as a social climbing activity. You are confusing the average player with the nob-ends who see membership of a prestigious club in the same way as they would having the 'right' car or living in the 'right' postcode.
Spot-on re what you say on getting out and riding regardless of gender/race/colour but equally I would recommend golf to any youngster as an outdoor pastime which you can enjoy for most of your life.
Look, life is short, don't give the men/women thing any energy, just go and ride yer bike, I don't give a shit about whether the PEOPLE I ride with are men or women (or black/white/yellow/brown/fat/thin/tall/short/hairy/bald/rich/poor)
Kind of agree and disagree with this. Mountain bikers on the whole just want to get out and ride bikes. Fine but in the grand scheme of things it is does result in it being seen as a white middle class male thing. Not good in a tick box society as it puts mountain biking low down the pecking order. If no one is trying to change that point of view the whole sport gets marginalised because its actually seen as being mainstream.
People are short of time so we need to grab our riding when we can but if that local loop gets sanitised because of a perception not doing it only really helps white middle class males then it doesnt really do anything for people who mountain bike.
Woody: the firm I work for, do we have mountainbiking days? No, we do not. Do we have golf days? Yes, we do. Do we have golf tournaments with potential/important clients? Yes, we do. Do we make/cement lots of contacts on the golf course? Yes, we do. Are lots of our clients fellow golf club members? Oh, yes, they are.*
soon to be hampered by the Bribery Act which comes in on Friday, certain ammunition for the companies that don't play golf
The chicks I ride with think it's a mark of respect when we call them "dude" (it is)
They don't like it when other guys on the trails call them "mate" by accident (usually they haven't clocked their Sombrio gloves)
As for the race issue, well I once saw a ski resort promotion cartoon featuring some African American skiers, it just didn't ring true...
Some blokes are idiots on bikes
I suggest if you're not being an idiot on your bike some of the time you're taking it too seriouslly (regardless of gender)
Some blokes are idiots on bikes and very intolerant and so are some women.I suggest if you're not being an idiot on your bike some of the time you're taking it too seriouslly (regardless of gender)
Some blokes are idiots on bikes and very amusing and so are some women.... whatever 😉
Despite my moderate-ish post on page three of this spiraling load of flim flam, my on trail attitude is rather the same as Karinofnine's.
I don't care who I ride with as long as they can keep up, since the slow/beginners ruin a ride by introducing too much waiting and curtailing the kind of trails that can be ridden. I've got no interest in bringing more people into mtbing - there are too many on the trails already. 😈
Similarly, I expect to be left behind if I ride with a group with skills and fitness beyond my own.
I think there are loads of riders with that kind of selfish attitude - at the end of the day, I ride for me, because I like to. I'm not rude, I'm cheerful and jokey, but I can understand how my general attitude could be seen as having the potential to alienate people that might possibly get into mtbing. Thats just tough, its not really my problem, and I'm not sure its even an issue.
If you want to do something, you will. More blokes than women want to ride mtb. More whites than ethic minorities want to get into mtb. I don't really get why mtb is somehow damaged or not 'complete' because some kinds of people don't want to do it. Is it just 'all-inclusive hand wringing?'
Sport = competition
Womens competition = sideshow
Sorry but it's true!
Scienceofficer and GW - thanks for reminding me of why I generally don't particulary like the mtb'ing world any more, and why I do more mountaineering / climbing etc where such attitudes don't exist (yes, people in those activities want to push themselves to their limits at beyond, but they're also keen to encourage and help others, and would never, ever leave anyone behind in the mountains - in fact that would be considered to be not only selfish but utterly incompetent behaviour).
But before you just bracket me into the 'sour grapes / uptight female' category, lets try another example that illustrates why I think both your attitudes suck:
My brother was born with profound and multiple disabilities - the list of details would take far to long, but surfice to say he has very limited physical ability (including things such as deformed skeletal structure, lack of co-ordiantion and balance etc). However, he's also the person who's taught me the most about real courage, effort, overcoming a huge amount of pain (after a lifetime of continuous operations) and positivity. We've always just mucked in together and helped out, at times literally carrying him up mountains between us so he can join in, and then a while ago he wanted to try cycling. Now if we all had the attitude of Scienceofficer, it would have been 'tough' - you can't keep up, and frankly we don't want you cluttering up the 'supposedly' already busy trails. Fortunately thanks to lots of support and help from volunteers and us as his family, he now cycles loads, and a couple of years ago took part in the Special Olympics and won a gold medal in the cycling Time Trial - but then for GW that would propably just be even more of a 'sideshow'.
So for me it's not 'all-inclusive hand-wringing' - its about having basic human decency to help others where and when you can (and yes, within that's there's still plenty of time and opportunity to do you own thing and push yourself to you own limits). Biking with my brother is a real laugh - it might take 3 of us just to get him upright on the back of a tandem, but after that he's as competative as any other guy and is well up for riding the rough stuff!
Sport = competition
Womens competition = sideshowSorry but it's true!
really? the women racing our series proportionally show more skill and technique than the blokes, riding stuff that has half the blokes walking down
it's only a sideshow if you treat it as such, we don't, our sponsors don't, others shouldn't 😀
Why should people, who are mtb'ers, care about the demographic of mtb'ers? I don't understand??
Sue you make fair and valid points. I posted my comments in full awareness that they would attract some criticism.
I think using such a polarised example is a bit disingenuous, since its rather outside the typical 'getting into mtb example' An outlier if you will.
If my brother was equally disabled, I too, would be going the extra mile to include him - Thats the strength of familial ties, and is indeed time and effort gladly given, but I would still be riding with people more competent to get the fix I need.
But you won't find me looking around to drag people into an activity they have no interest in.
Oh, you mis-interpret me - I won't leave anyone in the hills either - I won't ride with them more often than not. But if there is a mismatch in skill/fitness that become apparent on a ride, I'll hang about. If they ask for help or pointers I'm happy to offer advice on the little I know, but I won't be forcing anything on them.
Fortunately, I'm pretty average, thus, I'm fairly similar to loads of people and will happily ride with most.
Scienceofficer - you're right I did deliberately use a very different example as I wanted to try and break the view that this is just about women, but that attitudes about not wanting to include those who aren't 'good enough' affect many people, including those with disabilities.
I don't think I mis-interpreted you, especially this part:
"I don't care who I ride with as long as they can keep up, since the slow/beginners ruin a ride by introducing too much waiting and curtailing the kind of trails that can be ridden. I've got no interest in bringing more people into mtbing - there are too many on the trails already.
Similarly, I expect to be left behind if I ride with a group with skills and fitness beyond my own."
A few points that maybe you will consider to be more relevant, and less 'disingenuous' 🙂
- one of the frequent comments I hear from women is that they don't go out with local clubs becuase they are worried about holding them up / being too slow / ruining someone's ride. I think that it is something of a shame that people don't join in becuase they don't feel that they are good enough. And how many people then don't progress in their riding, or drop out altogether, becuase they don't have access to the social side of riding? Incidently, many of these women are actually reasonable riders, but I guess if they've heard someone making comments like yours, then they certainly wouldn't want to chance it. Personally, I get a buzz out of riding with someone who's newer to biking - it's great to see them grinning and enjoying themselves no matter how slow or easy the ride.
- what about people who are injured or develop an illness or condition that could affect their riding? Should they then not ride with others any more cos they'll hold them up? there are many examples of people on this forum who are in that position. A while ago I put forward a suggestion on another biking forum (interestingly one that is mainly frequented by women), for post-injury / easy / social rides - they've become pretty popular for a wide range of riders 🙂
- also your phrase 'similarly I would expect to be left behind' does imply that you find it perfectly acceptable to be 'dropped', or similarly to 'drop others' from a group ride if they are not keeping up. How dangerous can that be? As an example a few years ago I had post viral fatigue - I didn't know at that point as it hadn't diagnosed, but the people who I was riding with knew that I'd been ill. we got half way roudn the ride, high in the mountains and I couldn't keep up any more. They left me to find my own way down, whilst they went off on the rest of the ride. at the time I thought that was perfectly acceptable, as I didn't want to 'ruin their ride' but talking to some mountaineering friends afterwards I found they were completely shocked. (oh and incidently one of those people was my long-term partner at that point, who was a perfect example of the 'if you're not good enough I don't want to ride with you at any point' brigade).
Sport = competition
Womens competition = sideshow
Sorry but it's true!
I thought we'd already established that on the whole, most of us are partaking in mountain biking not as s sport, but as a pastime, or hobby if you will?
Competition doesn't come into it for the vast majority of us, except for with ourselves. I'll push myself to go faster over a bit of trail than before (sometimes, not all the time certainly) but couldn't care less how I shape up compared to anyone else.
As for women's sport being a sideshow... I don't care about the sex of the individuals competing, but of their ability to impress or entertain me when I'm watching sport. Men are always going to have an edge, it's in our physiology, but in every sport I've watched with wowen competing in recently I haven't failed to be impressed. The number of girls lapping ridiculously quickly at Mayhem the other weekend was impressive. I watched a days play of the ladies Ashes cricket last summer (sadly I was one of only about 20 people there watching!), both teams were seriously good. And I don't mean "good for girls", but the level of cricket being played was excellent to watch. And then there's women's football. Now I'm no football fan, cos the game has been spoilt by money, corruption, and overpaid halfwits putting on a song and dance all the time. Watching the pro females playing it is quite refreshing, they don't dive around half as much, they focus much more on the skills used and as such I think it's a better game to watch.
And then there's tennis. Ok it's impressive watching the guys bang a few 140mph serves in, but often the girls have much longer rallies.
Oh, and happily* single ... probably due to not being a proper girl and going out biking rather than shopping, plus being a bit of a research spod ... I suspect neither are considered particularly sexy by the majority of guys!
You've been meeting the wrong guys Sue! 😉
Interesting points with a marked difference in focus from my feelings on the topic.
I do think its acceptable to both drop and be dropped and gender has nothing to do with it. This is not without limit though, as I've said, I will hang about with slower riders if it happens - I just try to avoid it happening in the first place. Similarly, I wouldn't have been happy to let you come off the hill by yourself if you had bonked/blown. Thats just irresponsible. On the last STW ride in my area, I was actually the sweeper for most of it.
For me, there is little social aspect beyond the ride and I've managed to continue riding perfectly well without turning into some kind of wilting flower that needs propping up by other people - I've never been a member of any club and have hardly ridden in groups of more than 5 - I find it too stop-starty and a bit 'coach party'. This was the same when I was a new rider too. Occasionally we have a pint afterwards, but of those I ride with, we'd all actually rather ride for longer, rather than talk about it over a pint.
Although I've never been interested in them, surely clubs are the prime entry point for beginners? Most of those I've seen seem to cater for all abilities, or so they claim. Personally, I have no interest coaching people. I get a buzz out of riding, being outdoors and a sense of personal achievement on terrain that ones not sure one can get a bike over.
If I became ill, slower or less fit, I'd not expect any of the guys to ride slower just for my sake - why should they? They're riding for their own objectives and reasons, not mine. I would expect to help myself by finding a slower group of riders, or ride solo. I've done both before.
I have a suspicion that we're not going to reach consensus on this particular topic. We seem to be opposite faces of the coin. 😯 😉
double post. Sorry. 😳
As an example a few years ago I had post viral fatigue - I didn't know at that point as it hadn't diagnosed, but the people who I was riding with knew that I'd been ill. we got half way roudn the ride, high in the mountains and I couldn't keep up any more. They left me to find my own way down, whilst they went off on the rest of the ride.
Shocking behaviour on any level!
I've had CFS twice now (kinda getting over it right now too), its a total shit cos often you feel perfectly ok and then suddenly it can just stop proceedings dead. Leaving someone in the mountains on their own though... I've had people try to insist i left then to their own devices when it was clear they were holding me up, it doesn't matter, I can go ona faster ride another day, people's safety is paramount!
Scienceofficer - no I suspect that we're not going to see eye to eye on this, but in a way that's kind of OK - the world would be a very boring place if we all agreed (of course, it would obviously be better if you agreed with me!). Good on you though for having a reasonable debate, and I can see what you're saying. I was going to say that I would have preferred it if you hadn't been quite so patronising (and if you met me I suspect 'wilting flower' might be the last phrase you'd use!), but given that I was somewhat rude and said 'your attitude sucks' I suspect I can't really complain 🙂
mboy - yup PVS / CFS is a tough one - glad that I'm over it now but it did take a really long time. A lot of 'friends' faded away when I had it cos I could no longer get out at the same level, but interesting some of the best riders I know stayed in touch and we'd head off on rides together - I guess that's the difference between 'friends who ride' and 'not-friends who ride' 🙂
I wasn't referring to you when I said 'wilting flower' I meant it as a generic term to describe a certain type of person. Apologies if you though it was aimed at you.
There are plenty who think my attitude sucks, but this is the internet and I'm a big boy now.
Odly I was thinking about this in a different context last night. On the way back home from work I saw loads of women out running on the streets. However when I go for a run on the moors around the same area you dont see a single woman, but you do see other men...
whats it all about ??
one of the frequent comments I hear from women is that they don't go out with local clubs becuase they are worried about holding them up / being too slow / ruining someone's ride
That's definitely not something just limited to women.
Round here women probably have it easier as there is a women-only club that's very supportive of new riders and quite prepared to put on all sorts of rides to make sure there is something for everyone. They also do quite a lot of skills training sessions etc. At the weekend they managed to get 9 members to compete in a ladies-only triathlon, most of them (including my wife) beginners.
However when I go for a run on the moors around the same area you dont see a single woman, but you do see other men...whats it all about ??
I got back into cycling in early 20s, cycling with college friends on quiet country lanes. Started seeing someone who was into off road cycling, and bought my first MTB. I loved going off road, but after splitting up with him, it took me years to feel confident enough to go off road on my own. What if my bike broke? What if there was a bonkers man with an axe hiding in the woods? Gradually started to go off road on my own because I love going XC, although being in the middle of nowhere on my own still freaked me out. Now I love it, quite happily go for miles and miles in the countryside alone and did the SDW solo last year. I also run off road. So, it's a confidence thing I think, for me anyway. Having enough confidence to be away from civilisation and know you're still going to be ok.
My missus is happy on the moors. It's the parks that are a bit rapey I think.
MTBing as a Sport is only a tiny part of "The MTBing world" and "The "MTBing world" you have issues with is seems to be one I've never been a part of. 😕[b]Sue_W[/b]
Scienceofficer and GW - thanks for reminding me of why I generally don't particulary like the mtb'ing world any more, and why I do more mountaineering / climbing etc where such attitudes don't exist (yes, people in those activities want to push themselves to their limits at beyond, but they're also keen to encourage and help others, and would never, ever leave anyone behind in the mountains - in fact that would be considered to be not only selfish but utterly incompetent behaviour).
Other than competitions/events I don't see MTBing as a sport
I only watch any Sport to be impressed by the skills (not fitness) of the participants. (oh.. and the crashes of course 😉 ) for this reason I don't watch much women's sport.
I wasn't talking about it as a pasttime or hobby, only a Sport[b]mboy[/b]I thought we'd already established that on the whole, most of us are partaking in mountain biking not as s sport, but as a pastime, or hobby if you will
Competition doesn't come into it for the vast majority of us, except for with ourselves. I'll push myself to go faster over a bit of trail than before (sometimes, not all the time certainly) but couldn't care less how I shape up compared to anyone else?
I on the other hand wouldn't want to watch something as dull as Mountain Mayhem and find women's MTB competition so mindnumbingly boring and unstylish I can't even bear to watch them ride at WC level (and I'm a huge fan of DH/4X), it's painful watching the fastest girls in the world case jumps that are not all that hard to clear or worse still, not even jump them. IMO Joey Gough is the only girl worth watching race in MTB competition just now (and she doesn't even race MTB full time).As for women's sport being a sideshow... I don't care about the sex of the individuals competing, but of their ability to impress or entertain me when I'm watching sport. Men are always going to have an edge, it's in our physiology, but in every sport I've watched with wowen competing in recently I haven't failed to be impressed. The number of girls lapping ridiculously quickly at Mayhem the other weekend was impressive.
WTF? The only sport the thread title mentions is MTB, I couldn't care less what other sports you watch or what gender the participants are.I watched a days play of the ladies Ashes cricket last summer (sadly I was one of only about 20 people there watching!), both teams were seriously good. And I don't mean "good for girls", but the level of cricket being played was excellent to watch. And then there's women's football. Now I'm no football fan, cos the game has been spoilt by money, corruption, and overpaid halfwits putting on a song and dance all the time. Watching the pro females playing it is quite refreshing, they don't dive around half as much, they focus much more on the skills used and as such I think it's a better game to watch.And then there's tennis. Ok it's impressive watching the guys bang a few 140mph serves in, but often the girls have much longer rallies.
I'm amazed Cricket is still even considered a Sport? 😛