[Closed] Why does mtbing alienate women & to what extent does this hold back the sport?

Something I noticed about female mtbers was that most of them had ridden horses.
Thus being out in the countryside getting wet, cold and muddy, it's a natural progression. Being thrown off, cleaning tack, grooming all very similar.

I personally find that my non biking friends just don't like cycling and would never dream of going out in the middle of winter, at night, and come back looking like they've been dragged through a hedge backwards (literally in many cases).

This sport/pastime/hobby is too expensive for many women (me included, my bike is 8 years old now), many women feel pressurised trying to keep up in a group.
Also there is the time issue. We're so busy trying to work, cook, clean, be Nigella Goddess's, that's there's not much time left over at the end of the day.

Mud, yep that really is off putting, especially with the odd bit of animal poo thrown in for good measure.

[i]Rubbish. All you need is a bike, everything else is peripheral.[/i]

Ask your teacher to explain 'oversimplification'.

I had analysed the data, and neither income nor social class are statistically signficant variables that effect differences in participation in mtb'ing and road cycling. The strongest determinants of differences in participation are gender a d age, ethnicity and disability have a lesser effect but stronger than education which has a negligable impact.

[i] [/i]neither income nor social class are statistically signficant variables[i]

I'm intrigued by that; how old is the data?

God, I sound like such a boring nerd!

Sorry 🙂

the OPs initial question: "Why does mtbing alienate women & to what extent does this hold back the sport?" is a pretty loaded one

It is indeed a loaded question - loaded with the very obvious. Of [i]course[/i] the sport (it's a sport) doesn't appeal to as many women as men. Far more interesting I thought to consider the implications of this.

DH is still very much predominantly working class yet it's the most expensive discipline. How does that fit in?

SueW, not at all. My perceptions of how the sport/pastime has changed over 20 odd years are as valid or not as the next persons, and it is interesting to see research related to it.

Example; over the last 20 years, I've carried on riding, but I can run through 10 or so really talented women who have stopped.. got fed up? got bored? got better things to do?

Sue_W - Member

God, I sound like such a [s]boring[/s] nerd!

Sorry

Actually quite interesting

[i]DH is still very much predominantly working class[/i]

My experience of DH would disagree, the guys I know who did it or still do are a bit better off than that.

Crikey - the data is the most up to date available from 2009, currently running the next round of 12 months survey work which will give me the next complete dataset for analysis by mid 2012

yeah what helmet will kill you says.
I like nerdy. Elfin makes some very good point too. Look at the face thread. You'll probably get (IIRC) less than 5 people from a non white background.
I live in an area where plenty of people come from 2nd or 3rd generation of north african immigrant, and guess what non of them rides.
I have yet to come across a black guys on the trails. The SO rode a very popular event in march aimed at beginner and leisury mtbers and she can't remember having seen a black or an asian rider.

Food for thought.

mtbing alienate's women

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try tellng that to my missus 🙄

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IMO its boyfriends, husbands and male friends that do the alienating by being cocks and not being supportive and positive ... etc etc

I'm thoroughly confused - almost exactly half the people I've ridden with are women. Almost all have kids, but admittedly that has interfered with their riding (as it has to a lesser extent their husbands).

Perhaps you are alienating women rather than the "sport" alienating them. We all ride for pleasure not competition, and are more at the XC/trail end of the spectrum than the downhill side. Most riding in the real outdoors but some a trail centres.

Oh, and in general women that MTB are better looking than the average population (possibly because they are fitter).

Brilliant photos goog!
And a very true comment too.

yes goog - it was amazing going on a Morzine trip for the first time with only women - the interaction within the group was completely different (more supportive, encouraging etc) to a guys only group, where there is more ribbing etc. Made a big difference.

oh - and fab photos!

Rachel

As has been said before, Mountain Biking these days, on the whole, is a bunch of middle aged, middle class white men with fairly disposable incomes. It has, as crikey says, become the new Golf (which is quite a working mans sport these days ironically!).

And since when was Golf sexy, or interesting to women in general?

Joking aside, people who run don't bore everyone else in pubs about stories of running. People who walk hills and mountains don't bore everyone else in pubs with stories of mountains they've climbed. People who ride horses don't bore other people in pubs with stories of how high that last fence was that they cleared etc.

People who ride mountain bikes (not all of us, but quite a lot, and they're ALWAYS middle aged, middle class white men) DO bore everyone else in pubs with their stories of trails they've ridden, how extreme it was, how much air they got etc... And this is NOT cool... FFS, I saw people supporting at Mayhem (no names mentioned, but I bet a few people on here know who I'm referring to!) wearing cycling related gear to stand on the side of the track, cheer people on, and take photos. Hell, I don't particularly like the look of Lycra when I'm on the bike (but it serves a purpose), I'm sure as hell not wearing it off the bike!

Mountain Biking is seen as a geeky sport by most people, women included. And this is why lots of people (women included) don't do it. Strangely enough I know a lot of guys (and a couple of girls) who used to laugh at me for doing it cos they thought it was geeky, who have tried it recently, and have taken it up cos they love it!

But until we're generally accepted as not being geeky, bike obsessed nerds (whether we are or not), it's hard to be accepted socially. Fishing, now there's a ****ing sport I don't understand and find it highly amusing to ridicule, yet it's the most popular sport in the country! Go figure...

EDIT: Goog, do you ride in the FOD a bit? Swear last time I was there, saw a couple looking remarkably like you and your Mrs, her with a Giant DH bike, loading up a Van...

I find that my wife is irritatingly good on a bike- especially as she has only really got into it through me, and doesn't ride with me as much as i'd like. However, she does see it as some fun, with some enjoyable trail to ride, nice views and a pub/cafe at the end.

However, give her a hockey stick and she's terrifingly competitive and as physical as the rules will allow... Could it be said that many (sporty) women really enjoy something with a bit more team interaction? She also really loves the dynamic and tactic of the game too.

....And she plays golf too... 🙄

Maybe time for some facts rather than anecdotal evidence?

Old up lads; some bird's turned up with some fancy waffle. Best just to humour her and nod yer head and say 'yes dear' now and then, then with a bit of luck she'll get bored and leave us alone and go back to her knitting or getting her husband's tea on or something a woman's sposed to do.... 😉 😀

This has become a fascinating discussion. Some really interesting points, from all over. It's opened my mind a bit more, I have to say.

On the 'image' side of things; in my experience, women do tend to consider this issue more than most blokes. I ended up dealing with a lot of women with bikes and clothing, simply cos I worked with immature blokes I think really, but I must say aesthetics did play a more significant part than some might think or be prepared to admit. I don't think that's a negative issue at all tbh; a lot of cycling clothing is gopping TBH. And until more recently, there weren't enough women involved in the design of bikes and clothing that suited women. The feedback I got from women regarding women's specific bike design etc revealed that women do have particular needs when it comes to equipment that are distinct from what men want. Companies like Trek and Specialized etc have done a pretty good job in this regard, although there is a lot of marketing waffle wrapped up in this too. But I notice that MTB marketing stuff aimed at women tends to take a different tack to that aimed at men. The 'image' of MTBing has bin tweaked to appeal to more women, over the years. Ladies I know whattuv MTBed for years have said that stuff now is better for them than it used to be.

I would like to hear more about the Nature V Nurture debate regarding MTBing actually. I was pulled up off-forum about some of my earlier remarks, and don't wish to be misunderstood; I think there are definitely 'natural' reasons for the differences in the approach to MTBing from men and women. And I do think MTBing is very much an androcentric activity, so there will be certain barriers and obstacles for women, however well-intentioned people are.

The comparison to climbing is interesting; climbing seems to be a more social activity, and the relationship between climbers seems to be more personal. I spose it's an activity which involves a greater degree of co-operation between participants. I certainly know of climbers male and female who use it partly at least as a way of meeting others speshly the opposite sex. Which I think is a positive side-effect tbh.

MTBing is infinitely better than Golf though. Come on.

They all wear neck braces?

Iam referring to the semi-naked women used as objects throughout the editorial and advertising in most MX mags. While this isn't the [i]cause[/i], it's certainly a signpost to something in MX that (to me) seems a bit 'off'.
Mountain biking seems to me to be very equal.
A couple of months back I was sitting down on the bend of Jacob's Ladder and was impressed to see an all-female party of 4 ripping down in great style. The next large group of riders was 50/50 balanced and the girls were riding with equal ability.

< uber-spod mode on > actually fishing isn't the most popular outdoor activity, walking is. And both mtb'ing and road cycling are more than twice as popular as fishing < uber-spod mode off ... well not really - I rarely get a justifiable opportunity to bore people with stat's and facts outside of my social scientist circles >

'nature' v 'nurture' - mmm ... biological determinism is always tricky ground. Instread I'll duck behind the protection of research which has found that (a) women have less available leisure time than men and spend a greater proportion of their 'non-work' time doing domestic chores; (b) women have a higher level of participation in activities that have family or 'social' associations; (c) that women are more 'other' orientated than men when it comes to expressing their recreational preferences - ie they are more likely to shape their activities to what others want to do than what they want to do themselves.

(have realised that personally I don't fit with (a), (b), or (c), thus being known in research terms as an outlier or anomoly ...)

I am curious as to how mountain biking would have developed if it had been a predominantly female activity - would if have become more orientated towards endurance, or low risk technique, than gnarly tech?

Sue - my guess would be more "wandering around the scenery" and less "thrashing around in the woods" ie more going somewhere and for the views and the experience less for the thrill of riding.

Both road cycling and mountain biking have the greatest gender difference of all active outdoor pursuits, with a ratio of approximate 2:1 (male to female) in relation to occasional participation.

really, I imagine surfing/ kite surfing have a greater inbalance

a woman in the line up at Whitby/Scarborough/Caton in winter would always be the exception

TJ - based on a sample size of 1 (me!) then your assessment is correct 🙂

oh and Poly re: 'in general women that mtb are better looking than the average population' - I'm afraid from my experience that might be a minority view - I've been told I'm not feminine cos I don't wear enough make up and another 'friend' insisted I wore stockings at her wedding cos I was bound to have bruises or cuts on my legs and that 'wouldn't look good'!

actually fishing isn't the most popular outdoor activity, walking is. And both mtb'ing and road cycling are more than twice as popular as fishing

V surprised by that, had always been told that fishing was, and I know a huge number of fish-ists too.

And can I be the first (and probably only person) to say that Sue_W I am massively envious of your job, sounds very interesting! But then I am a statistics geek through and through, only I never get to play with anything as interesting as something that might be relevant to any of my own interests!

'nature' v 'nurture' - mmm ... biological determinism is always tricky ground.

She said 'Biological Determinism'. 😮

(Is in awe)

(b) women have a higher level of participation in activities that have family or 'social' associations; (c) that women are more 'other' orientated than men when it comes to expressing their recreational preferences - ie they are more likely to shape their activities to what others want to do than what they want to do themselves.

This actually fits in perfectly with my own observations, I have to say. In many different cultures too. I am just curious as to how much is socially engendered behaviour, and how much is 'naturally' inherent.

Deveron53

Iam referring to the semi-naked women used as objects throughout the editorial and advertising in most MX mags. While this isn't the cause, it's certainly a signpost to something in MX that (to me) seems a bit 'off'.

Do you think this could simply be evidence that mx is at ease with itself, knows what it is, who the audience is (men), how to target them and is big enough that it doesnt need to worry about being pc in the slightest?

Personally I think sexism (intentional or unintentional) is the root of this 'issue'. See comments in this thread of examples of men being condescending or patronising when it faced with women who can ride a bike [i]as well as a man can[/i]. There is a need to qualify seeing a woman on a bike by relating their occurrence to some level of ability. This prevailing attitude will surely influence whether women take up the sport, influenced as they are by their peers.

I'd be interested to know whether Sue's research covers peer influence in determining m:f ratios in different activities.

at ease with itself..I believe the ultimate sign of this is indeed semi naked pictures of women in/on/near machinery..only the other day I was at the home of a middle aged persons house adorned with pictures of semi naked women and do you know what I thought
1.ah excellent a man at ease with himself.
2. what a sad ****er

I suspect the BS machismo of it all reduces the appeal for some women.
I suspect that even without this it is just something [ generally] women are not in to.

Junkyard - Member

only the other day I was at the home of a middle aged persons house adorned with pictures of semi naked women and do you know what I thought
1.ah excellent a man at ease with himself.
2. what a sad ****

I take it these pictures weren't Ruben's?

Sue_W - Member

TJ - based on a sample size of 1 (me!) then your assessment is correct

mboy - now is my favouritist person for being envious of my job 🙂 although the best bit is not the number crunching but the fact the survey I'm responsible for counts as 'official statistics' which means I can tell the government to pee off as they aren't allowed the data until I'm happy to release it to the public (a small but significant victory to the likes of people like me!)

Tempted to ignore Mr Elfinsafety for referring to me as 'some bird' but as he has redeemed himself by mentioning a degree of awe, then am prepared to bore him a bit more ... it is very difficult to determine what is 'inherent' and what is 'socially constructed' (and neither of which explain the likes of me or other girls who bike). It's probably more useful to therefore consider whether it is something that should be addressed? In my mind, yes. Mainly because there are significant health benefits from being physically active which are currently not bring equally gained by women.

Ask your teacher to explain 'oversimplification'.

Ahaha, a joke so funny you had to use it twice. When you are finished being a patronising throbber, you could explain what else you actually need other than a bike?

I take it these pictures weren't Ruben's

Tempted to ignore Mr Elfinsafety for referring to me as 'some bird'

😀

it is very difficult to determine what is 'inherent' and what is 'socially constructed'

Indeed, that's why there's so much academic theory surrounding this subject. And there's always the danger that your carefully thought-out theory could be rubbished by someone else. I'm wondering if there is a link to the fact that MTBing is a risky activity, which may somehow, even on a subconscious level, dissuade women from participating. Mind you, climbing is perhaps even riskier, and loads of women enjoy that.

As for the 'sweatiness' thing, that's just crap imo. Ever seen women coming out of a Yogalates or whatever class? Spinning? Some things that are popular with women are proper sweaty.

One thing I always find interesting when I go swimming, is that most women tend to stick to the 'slow' or 'medium' lanes, whereas blokes tend to gravitate towards the 'fast' lane, even if they are in fact quite slow. Many's the time I've seen women swim faster in one of the other lanes, than slow men in the fast lane. I've seen reasonably quick women swimmers move over to the medium lane if faster people are in the fast lane, but some blokes seem loathe to accept and admit they are slow, and use the appropriate lane. Is this due to testosterone? Social pressure and expectation?

Women will usually let me pass them at the end of the lane, if I am quicker than them. Some blokes can be incredibly stubborn on this matter though. Natural male competitiveness, or insecurity and an inability to be able to accept being just a teeny bit 'weaker' than another bloke?

Rubbish. All you need is a bike, everything else is peripheral.

Same with golf; all you need are clubs and balls, which can be picked up as cheap as any bike.

mboy - Member
As has been said before, Mountain Biking these days, on the whole, is a bunch of middle aged, middle class white men with fairly disposable incomes. It has, as crikey says, become the new Golf (which is quite a working mans sport these days ironically!).

And since when was Golf sexy, or interesting to women in general?

Joking aside, people who run don't bore everyone else in pubs about stories of running. People who walk hills and mountains don't bore everyone else in pubs with stories of mountains they've climbed. People who ride horses don't bore other people in pubs with stories of how high that last fence was that they cleared etc.

People who ride mountain bikes (not all of us, but quite a lot, and they're ALWAYS middle aged, middle class white men) DO bore everyone else in pubs with their stories of trails they've ridden, how extreme it was, how much air they got etc... And this is NOT cool... FFS, I saw people supporting at Mayhem (no names mentioned, but I bet a few people on here know who I'm referring to!) wearing cycling related gear to stand on the side of the track, cheer people on, and take photos. Hell, I don't particularly like the look of Lycra when I'm on the bike (but it serves a purpose), I'm sure as hell not wearing it off the bike!

Mountain Biking is seen as a geeky sport by most people, women included. And this is why lots of people (women included) don't do it. Strangely enough I know a lot of guys (and a couple of girls) who used to laugh at me for doing it cos they thought it was geeky, who have tried it recently, and have taken it up cos they love it!

But until we're generally accepted as not being geeky, bike obsessed nerds (whether we are or not), it's hard to be accepted socially. Fishing, now there's a ****ing sport I don't understand and find it highly amusing to ridicule, yet it's the most popular sport in the country! Go figure...

EDIT: Goog, do you ride in the FOD a bit? Swear last time I was there, saw a couple looking remarkably like you and your Mrs, her with a Giant DH bike, loading up a Van...

Really?? 🙄

Sounds like a load of tosh and waffle to me.

I've been biking with my older sis for 17 years. My younger sis for a bit less. Even my mum has owned Marins for the last 8 years or so. I went out last night with my missus (who's fell off in spectacular fashion but is laughing about it).

They don't buy magazines. Women rarely do for hobbies. They tend to just do it rather than read about it. Men read and discuss shit much more than they do shit.

Unfortunately I am nearly 40, work in IT and live in the country. So although I've been riding mtb's since I never had a pot to piss in (GT Timberline ftw!), I've got to give up now as I no longer fit the required demographic profile of a true biker...

Women bikers should be treated equally but this doesn't get them out of cake-baking duties beforehand.

There is just so much to say about this issue, I honestly don't know where to start. I may have to go off and write an essay....

I came back to cycling 23 years ago when I settled down and bought the first of many mountain bikes I've owned. For many years it was an absolute obsession, which drove my family mad but by two years ago I was losing interest, losing motivation and when I acquired a road bike, the finesse, greater fitness and the convenience of road riding took over as a new obsession.

Why did I lose interest in mountain biking? Well, it IS a white middle aged men's sport; I saw a couple of Asian guys and a couple of women try to join my local MTB club and the Asians in particular were not made welcome. The banter on club rides was mostly about gear, bits and "what I did" and was 100% male.

There's the mud and the constant need for washing, cleaning, fiddling and messing with the bike, the weight of the FS bikes that people went and bought rather than a sensible hard tail, the expense, the fashion, the unsightly bellies in lycra, the crude jokes and the beer at the end of every ride, the jolly machismo and competition of the whole scene. Above all I was appalled at the aggression towards other trail users, the disproportionate reaction when drivers took objection to a large pack occupying the road and the lack of consideration towards horse riders. My own private belief is that mountain biking appeals because it's a pack behaviour territory-claiming activity, in a similar way it has been suggested that golf appeals to men because it's a prey-hunting game.

For me the biggest de-motivator was trail centres; I found them boring, posey, competitive and teeming with some of the worst examples of biking machismo. I was shocked that people would buy bottles of drink from the cafe then throw the empties away in the countryside. This was not mountain biking, this was just hooligans out having a blast. I would generally ride a few miles on the trail then lose interest and head off into the woods to explore some real trails.

So it's easy to see why women don't like mountain biking really.

I've just asked my wife why she prefers road biking to mountain biking (she has decent bikes for both disciplines) and she said the reasons are:
- she expects to fall-off and hurt herself on the MTB
- it's muddy and dirty

Now this isn't from someone who's scared of the outdoors - she hillwalks (and is a trained mountain leader, used to taking kids groups out in all weather conditions), enjoys climbing and sea kayaking and did her first triathlon at the weekend. Not only that but she's also a member of a very good all-women cycling club (Hervelo) who cover all disciplines - road, CX, MTB including racing. Given the age of our kids now (15 and 19) she also has spare time available.

Saying that mountain biking alienates her is completely missing the point - if anything she's alienated herself (although I've not given up hope of getting her into mountain biking yet!), or more precisely she's picked the discipline she prefers.

She's also completely disinterested in any of the mechanical stuff (although is just about capable of fixing a puncture) and relies on me for all the bike building and maintenance.

epicsteve - you're wife's first comment is interesting. I've heard friends who mtb often say 'if you don't crash you're not trying hard enough'. For me that's part of the 'macho' side of mtb'ing that really puts me off - pain and injury doesn't appeal to me and pictures that some mtb'ers appear to love to display of their injuries only reinforces that gung-ho bravado.

Interestingly, when I road ride / scramble / climb etc no-one says 'if you don't crash you're not trying hard enough' or that injury is part of the activity (although it is helpful in climbing to practise / get used to falls so that when they happen in 'real life' you're better prepared - similarly it's good to practise capsize and rescues when kayaking)

I'm not sure if it's a 'personal to me' thing, or associated with being female, but I prefer mtb'ing that's more xc, out in the hills, doesn't need body armour / full face helmets, and is more about enjoying the lanscape than focusing on technical aspects of a trail. Unsurprisingly I'm therefore not a big fan of FC trail centres!

epicsteve - you're wife's first comment is interesting. I've heard friends who mtb often say 'if you don't crash you're not trying hard enough'.

In her case I don't think that's likely to be a factor. I don't tend to fall off much (I nearly always ride alone so tend towards caution) and the only other mountain bikers she's ever ridden with are the ladies club she's in, and they're definitely not like that.

My wife loves her mountain bike and loves mountain biking. Shes the one who dragged me out of the car to ride round the marin in a god awful storm, best ride ever even though we were a couple of drowned rats by the end. Thing is she wouldn't do the marin on her own, rotten sense of direction and totally unsure of her own abilities, she's a fine rider and it's easily within her capabilities.

this is going to sound very stereotypical and cliché but She has no, and i mean no, interest in the technical side of her bike what so ever. 4 years of riding it and shes still has no idea what does what! she can just about use granny and has never been in the big ring. Forget punctures & putting the chain back on, lock outs and travel adjust, I've just given up trying to explain, just set it up how she likes it and let her ride.

She doesn't like raised boardwalk sections at all, no matter how wide. All the new skull and crossbone warning signs at CyB really threw her confidence (on stuff she had ridden many times before).

Why it's a male dominated sport ? lots of reasons, but one I have noticed at trail centers is the wife/girlfriend palmed off with some pretty dreadful bikes while hubby minces off into the distance on his £3k steed.