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I think he means "aesthetically pleasing" elfin... 😉
What do you mean by that? That they should be White, with mousey brown hair, a purple top and grey trousers? Or that they should have a mint green bike? What?
I was just referring to Darcey Turrene as a whole in general :D. I think she's every male mountain bikers dream, well mine anyway. She's a bit of a badass, she gets muddy and has a few crashes, and she's wicked on a bike too.
It is not as simple as "girls like shopping, blokes like getting muddy". I know many guys who take ridiculous amounts of pride in their appearance, shop lots, then go out every Saturday night dressed to impress and get drunk and sleep in til whenever on Sunday.
Good exmaple. Look at Geordie Shore 😯
I don't think Darcy is an especially great beauty but she is glamorous and cool [u]because[/u] she rides bikes. IMO.
So you're implying that female MTBers ought to match up to the standards you've set?
Why?
Who was that directed at Fred?
Michaelmcc.
...and to labour a previous point, none, that's 'not one' of the women I have been biking with have children, which strikes me as a significant issue.
Mountain biking as we know it today is the sport of choice for relatively well off, call 'em middle class if you want, people who can afford fancy bikes, afford to travel around the country and so on. This in turn dictates the targets that advertisers aim for, which tends to lead to the same folk buying the stuff.
It's golf, over a slightly wider area, with even more ridiculous outfits.
So you're implying that female MTBers ought to match up to the standards you've set?
Why?
No i said it would be nice if more were like that. I don't see it happening any time soon though. Everyone has to start somewhere, more women taking it up would be a good start.
No I said it would be nice if more were like that.
Erm so you [i]do[/i] think they ought to match up to the standards you think are ideal then?
Why?
Wunundred. I'm 'aving that wun.
Another mark on your bed post 😉
.
OK, reading this thread I'm feeling like I SHOULD be alienated but I'm sorry I don't!
No, I don't like fettling with my bike (that's hubby's job), but then I wouldn't like fettling with my car either!
No, I can't ride as fast as the fellas or ride as aggressively as them but that would be true in most sports so why should that make me feel bad?
I ride with a varied bunch of people, one was in the winning team at Mayhem, another was in Spain at the weekend representing Britain in a triathlon, others have solo'd at Mayhem, and that's JUST the women.
If I was going to feel alienated you would think that lot could do it to a 'usually bringing up the rear' 40 year old woman, but they don't because they are fantastic people who are good friends, most of whom we've met through mountain biking!!
If any woman feels alienated perhaps she need to have a good look at her riding buddies 😉
Deb
Erm so you do think they ought to match up to the standards you think are ideal then?Why?
I think you're just nit-picking now lol. Can you not just take the post for what it is.
Other examples..
It would be nice if i had a house in Spain
It would be nice if i had a really fast car.
It would be nice if i could ride like Sam Hill.
Can you not just take the post for what it is.
No.
Chiefly because I know not what it is, that it is. Or isn't. As the case may be.
can what STWers do be classed as 'sport'? I'd call it more like a leisure activity really
This does get to me - its almost allways referred to as a sport on here and IMO a sport needs two things - exertion and competition judged objectively. Otherwise its a pastime - and the macho image of extreme sport when its actually pony trekking by bike for most of us I guess does put women off.
In my nearly 40 years amongst the great unwashed of the country, I've drawn the conclusion that most ladies really can't be arsed with physical effort unless they have to. Most ladies don't like to be sweaty, muddy, smelly, bruised, cold and wet either, so MTb'ing is pretty much at the bottom of the [i]'desirable things for ladies to do'[/i] with [i]'watching soaps with ben & Gerry's'[/i] being rather nearer the top.
Men are much more inclined to tolerate being smelly, muddy, wet, cold, etc, because a far greater proportion of blokes get more reward from physical activity than said ladies.
There are of course, substantial minorities of both sides that don't conform to this kind of gender stereotyping
[i]its actually pony trekking by bike for most of us[/i]
I laughed out loud at that, good call TJ.
It's too late for the voice of reason Colin: Fred and TJ are now engaged in this thread. Abandon ship.
Reason?
How very dare you!
It's golf, over a slightly wider area, with even more ridiculous outfits.
Yes, it's almost exactly like golf. Except for the lack of hitting a little ball into holes. And all the cycling. Other than that, practically identical.
You'll do metaphors next term.
Interesting topic this, although I really don't think 'alienate' is a word that applies.
I'm a woman, I started riding mountain bikes pretty recently and love the tinkering and maintaining aspect (but then I am actually an engineer too). I can't say what really drew me to get into biking, other than it's something I always thought I should have a go at. So through the encouragement of a few of my friends I gave it a go, bought a bike and have been hooked ever since!
Admittedly I don't really fit the general demographic - my other hobbies include rock and ice climbing, aerobatic flying and mountain rescue...
You'll do metaphors next term.
You think mountain biking is a [i]metaphor[/i] for golf? Really?
I have noticed in the last two years that I seem to have to "justify" going out biking. It's kind of bizarre how somehow I'm not expected to do things quite like that. Of course, it doesn't stop me.
I will admit, though, it is a pain getting scratches and bruises. It's hard enough looking okay when we have meetings with external visitors but if I'm covered in bruises and scabs on my legs, I don't think it is appreciated!!
Rachel
I'm not alienated.
I like riding with lots of 'boys' 😀
Other women are strange
Some really twisted stuff on this thread, esp the guy that thinks more women should get into mountainbiking but only if they are young and fit and he can leer at them... I think that's called a self defeating prophecy...
I think the Elfin One is closest to the mark.
The climbing analogy is poor: Climbing walls are much more like going to the gym; it's not a risk sport and you can have a shower afterwards.
How many women lead mid to hard extreme Trad routes ground up? In Scotland almost none (with the honourable exception of Tess Fryer).
Bottom line is that women are less drawn to risk sports than men...I don't think mud is a major deterent!
hels - there should be a 'like' button on this website - you're absolutely right!!
Rachel
[i]You think mountain biking is a metaphor for golf? Really?[/i]
Yes. Don't worry if you don't.
On a typical ride through the Peaks, I reckon about 25-30% of the riders are female. Maybe some males are not riding in the right places or they seem to be scaring females off somehow!
Now motocross - there's a sport that needs a ****ing makeover! Pick up a mountain bike mag and then pick up a MX mage, apart from the engines, what else do you notice as being different?
I know a few female mountainbikers. I don't know any that do a different competitive sport.
I assume there is a lot less women do competitive sports than men in general. I'd guess that a there are a lot higher % of women in mountainbiking than in most sports (obviously netball may be an exception).
Now motocross - there's a sport that needs a ****ing makeover! Pick up a mountain bike mag and then pick up a MX mage, apart from the engines, what else do you notice as being different?
They all wear neck braces?
The pages are stuck together ??
Deveron53
Now motocross - there's a sport that needs a ****ing makeover!
Really, why do you say that? Is it because it's hugely popular worldwide now?
the macho image of extreme sport when its actually pony trekking by bike for most of us
Love it!
The mags may have something to do with it but I still think one of the barriers to biking is because you still get a fair chunk of active discrimiation and mild to major abuse from some other recreational groups. How motivating must an animated rambling incedent be if your just having a bit of a pootle round.
I'm not so sure it's a case of "alienating Women" so much as MTBing being the sort of sport that (at present) primarily attracts White middle-class males between the ages of 13 and 40...
All sports have their key demographics, people have mentioned a few contributing factors, traditional gender roles, the sports history, stereotypes, marketing and the wider perception of the sport, etc all of which are valid points...
But I guess the real question is not "why are there so few female MTBers?" but more why does MTBing not appeal to a broader cross section of society?
MTBing is not a particularly diverse sport, assuming you see it as a "sport" and not just a "Leisure activity" a subtle difference but probably quite distinct in most non-MTBers minds, where most STWers would not consider trundling round centre-parcs on a rented hybrid Mountain biking to the uninitiated that's probably about what they expect from it, my Missus certainly thinks that's about all it is and she's even been to watch a couple of DH races...
Moreover does MTBing need to broaden its appeal? (some will tell you it is already a steadily growing sport/outdoor activity) there can't be that many people who are totally unaware of it, perhaps not the many and varied sub-niches but 99% of people these days will know what a mountain bike is and basically what it's for by now, if the concept appeals they tend to get into it, if not... Well you were never going to "convert" them were you? so why worry?
Also I suppose asking on here is of course like asking a group of "believers" what wrong with all the atheists in the world?
This lot can only offer educated guesses and anecdotes but The people to ask (and expect various organizations already do so quite regularly) are those that are not into it...
Maybe time for some facts rather than anecdotal evidence? 🙂
Both road cycling and mountain biking have the greatest gender difference of all active outdoor pursuits, with a ratio of approximate 2:1 (male to female) in relation to occasional participation. The gender difference extends to 3:1 (m:f) for regular road cycling and an even greater 4:1 for regular mtb'ing.
This is a much greater difference between male and female participants than other outdoor pursuits. There are equal numbers of men and women taking part in Snowsports (eg skiing etc), outdoor swimming, and hiking, and a mucher lesser difference in gender participation levels in running, climbing, and kayaking / sailing. The only active outdoor pursuit when the number of women exceeds men is horseriding.
The data and research that I specialise in indicates that getting dirty, not wanting to exercise etc are not the main reasons why women don't participate more in cycling (although overall lower participation rates in all active pursuits are linked to lower levels of autonomous leisure time). One of the most intersting findings that I am currently researching is that latent demand for road cycling is greater for women, which bucking the standard user demographic profile and is very unusual.
Certainly, qualitative research is indicating that there is an 'image issue' associated with women's response to participating in mtb'ing. The role of current mtb'ers and the media / biking industry undoubtably has a role in that image.
Nice one SueW, it's funny, because mountain biking has become one of the most middle class sports I know; it started off with the guys who rode road bikes, who were very much working class, and has evolved to the point where I was offered some lip balm at the start of a recent ride.
The middle-classisation of mountain biking is interesting; it is far more exclusive in the sense of excluding those who don't have the income, and the disposable income to participate, than in terms of obvious gender problems.
That's why it most closely resembles golf in terms of the class of it's participants, their income, the concentration on equipment and clothing, the need to be able to travel to do it, and the white male core group of players.
Some really twisted stuff on this thread, esp the guy that thinks more women should get into mountainbiking but only if they are young and fit and he can leer at them... I think that's called a self defeating prophecy..
I presume thats aimed at me and it sounds like total BS to be honest. Can you not take it in a light hearted way? Darcey is most male mountain bikers dream. Don't take offence that I'm looking at her a similar way to women checking out footballers, or men at the gym (or the opposite sex in whatever sport they do and like).
I'd love any type of women to get into biking no matter what they're age and shape is. Surely a good figure comes with it over time anyway 😉
If any woman feels alienated perhaps she need to have a good look at her riding buddies
I get alienated when my riding buddies are far technically superior to me... and that's just the 10 year old girls. Q_Q
Actually having re-read the OPs initial question:
[i]"Why does mtbing alienate women & to what extent does this hold back the sport?"[/i]
Is a pretty loaded one, and quite clearly worded with a conclusion already in mind wasn't it?
It starts with the premise that MTBing "alienates" women, there are plenty of activities in the world that do not attract female participation, I doubt would accuse many of them of actively "alienating" women though…
It then moves on to effectively insinuate that lack of female participation is bad for the sport, by merely asking to what extent MTBing is "Held back" by this rather asking if it is the case at all (it may well not be)...
It's stuffed full of assumptions and bias the OP is clearly trying to construct “Socially desirable” responses, basically the start point for this debate is heavily skewed and designed to put the (mostly male) members of this forum on the defensive…
A more subtle Troll than STW is used to, but a Troll none the less… well done
B+
Interesting Crikey.
Motocross (my background) is identical to mountainbiking in every way, except income (although it is also largely a white male pastime). You're just as likely to get some lads in £100 transit as someone in a £100k motorhome at an event. Oddly the kit is just as expensive as MTB. Very oddly... you'd have thought it would cost more.
The middle-classisation of mountain biking is interesting; it is far more exclusive in the sense of excluding those who don't have the income, and the disposable income to participate, than in terms of obvious gender problems.That's why it most closely resembles golf in terms of the class of it's participants, their income, the concentration on equipment and clothing, the need to be able to travel to do it, and the white male core group of players.
Rubbish. All you need is a bike, everything else is peripheral.