It seems that ALL the fair-weather cyclists were out this weekend, which got me thinking, why do so many people insist on riding along roads 2/3 abreast?
I always try to be as considerate as possible when passing bikes (I know what it’s like to ride on busy roads so try to remember that), but some people seem to be trying to make things more dangerous.
Other than making it possible to have a chat (or possibly to p*ss people off), is there any real reason for riding like this?
Because you're allowed to?
why do so many people insist on riding along roads 2/3 abreast?
To chat to your mate
To stop idiots trying to squeeze past when there really isn't enough room
no rule that says you have to ride single file to my knowledge.. though 3 abreast is taking the pi$$
plus if they are roadies and in a chain gang then need to ride two abreast to they can rotate turns on the front
stops fannys squeezing through.
chaingangs work better 2 up
safety is the main issue - more road presense , people see you.
both times ive had folk take offence to this ive had a cop in the pack - threatening behavior warrents a visit from his friends 😉
One long single file of bikers is more difficult to pass than one shorter file of 2 abreast plus it stops motorists attempting to squeeze past when there isn't enough room.
The problem is that motorists don't know this, as a general rule motorists have no clue whatsoever about how to handle large numbers of cyclists so they just get wound up.
Highway Code:
66
You shouldkeep both hands on the handlebars except when signalling or changing gear
keep both feet on the pedals
[b]never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends [/b]
not ride close behind another vehicle
not carry anything which will affect your balance or may get tangled up with your wheels or chain
[b]be considerate of other road users[/b], particularly blind and partially sighted pedestrians. Let them know you are there when necessary, for example, by ringing your bell if you have one. It is recommended that a bell be fitted
A mate has a habit of riding way out in the road to stop overtaking on narrow roads, where it's not IMO dangerous to overtake. Really winds me up. Cyclists don't own roads.
as a general rule motorists have no clue whatsoever
do the same rules apply to walkers on a 2 way cycle path ? they get all het up when you ring your bell to get them to stop walking 5 abreast , pull there dog/child/RABBIT !!! in from blocking the entire 8 foot wide path !
Some cyclists aren't very considerate to drivers.
Some drivers aren't very considerate to cyclists.
One of these facts kills people. The other just makes people a bit late sometimes. Take a deep breath. 🙂
The stops dangerous overtakes line is bollocks. It might stop some, but then it makes as many safe overtakes dangerous by narrowing a road that is wide enough to pass one cyclist. Drivers will still go for it. All you've done there is make the consequences worse as the first thing that will happen in a crash is the outside rider will go through the inside rider.
If anything it will have a negative impact on safety as you'll piss more (ignorant) motorists off, who then go for the dangerous overtakes.
But at least it gives people something to complain about on the internet on a Monday!
Some cyclists aren't very considerate to drivers.
Some drivers aren't very considerate to cyclists.One of these facts kills people. The other just makes people a bit late sometimes. Take a deep breath.
I dissagee, they both have the potential to kill people as paulrockliffe says:
If anything it will have a negative impact on safety as you'll piss more (ignorant) motorists off, who then go for the dangerous overtakes.
Although I also agree with this:
But at least it gives people something to complain about on the internet on a Monday!
2-a-breast fine, anymore is just dangerous.
Single file on busy and narrow roads too.
Not this one again...
On a single carriageway road which is not wide enough for a car to overtake a cyclist without moving into the oncoming lane then riding two abreast is preferable, as this will make the group of cyclists half as long and so easier to overtake than if they were in single file.
Such logic is lost on most car drivers though.
If the road is wide enough for a car to overtake a cyclist without moving into the oncoming lane then a group of cyclists should single out to let the traffic past.
[i]they both have the potential to kill people [/i]
Right, so an irritable motorist doing a dangerous over-take because he hasn't the patience to wait and overtake safely is an example of a [i]cyclist[/i] killing people by being inconsiderate? 🙄
Anyone who actually was riding yesterday will be able to confirm that the head wind (one of those magical doesn't matter which direction you are going in it's still a headwind winds) made it incredibly difficult to hear approaching traffic from behind.
I personally will ride 2 abreast but if I'm aware of a car travelling behind me will always drop into single file to allow them to pass, this seems to work very well for everyone usually. But on a couple of occasions yesterday cars overtook and literally could not be heard by myself or my riding buddy till they were right behind or parallel with us.
Cyclists don't own roads
Neither do car drivers! Idiot.
i agree toby - i took out the TT bike yesterday for alittle adapting to position. Rode to cupar to watch east fife tri.
Looked forward to TTing home with a tailwind along the a92 ....
EPIC FAIL - major headwind - despite the major headwind on the way to cupar
in small groups ill do as you describe - 2 up and then go singlefile when its safe for the car to get past.
Tend not to ride narrow (1/1.5) car wide busy roads though - pick wide busy roads over narrow busy roads - to get to the narrow quiet roads !
While I wouldn't recommend cycling more than two abreast, the piece of highway code that cynic-al quotes is a 'SHOULD NOT' not 'MUST NOT' (therefore not road traffic law) so its not strictly illegal.
A good percentage of my time on the road (on my own ) I'd be where the outermost cyclist would be anyway.
I'd be where the outermost cyclist would be anyway
Sounds like adding more risk? No? Surely you would want to leave maximum distance between yourself and the overtaking car?
so an irritable motorist doing a dangerous over-take because he hasn't the patience to wait and overtake safely is an example of a cyclist killing people by being inconsiderate?
The cyclist won't kill anyone, but they do seem to be putting themselves in unnecessary danger (I may be wrong, but that's how it appears sometimes).
lol - have you ever ridden on the road hainey
Seriously !
Yes, i ride on the road every day.
So, before you jump to conclusions i am both a cyclist and a driver.
Cyclists who sit in the middle of the road rather than slightly over to the left are putting themselves and other road users at more risk IMPO.
so you havnt ridden on the road either jengledow
ok - ever done basic motor bike training ?
know where your least likely to be seen ?
being seen is most of the rules of survival.
The halfing the line length thing; if you're trying to make things as safe as possible for yourself on the road, surely you would be leaving enough room for a car to overtake you and pull in between you and the bike in front?
It's better training for you anyway not relying on someone else to tow you along isn't it?
For balance, I ride on the road myself, and don't have any particular objections to the way people ride their bikes, but I can see that in plenty of accidents the cyclist is guilty of contributory negligence.
Hainey, being a gutter hugger positively encourages bad overtakes.
as well as making you less visible in general. If you're overtaking me you do it when its safe or you dont do it at all.
No one has mentioned gutter hugging in anyway so don't jump to conclusions. That is more dangerous than cycling right out in the lane.
I see we have a few of the 'trail centre only' MTBers popping up.on this thread 😕
If its so dangerous hainey, why have I had so few incidents in 25 odd years of (helmetless) cycling?. Why do I also have little aggro between me and other vehicles?
Surely you would want to leave maximum distance between yourself and the overtaking car?
thats got to be implying gutter hugging - that would be maximum distance....
riding alone i ride where the passenger of a car would be - riding 2 up ill ride just to the right of the midline of the car as the outside rider.
riding alone i ride where the passenger of a car would be
I don't think we are talking at cross purposes here.
Christ some people seem to be awfully militant this morning? 🙄
Surely the 'militants' are the drivers that insist on having the road to themselves?
edit; and my names west kipper, not Christ
The worry I have about road "pleasure" cycling is the same worry I have about people riding high performance motor bikes.
Both are using the public highway as a playground !!
That seems to me to be very dangerous. Especially to themselves but also to other road users who are not "playing" but trying to get from A to B.
Others don't want to be in their "game" but have no choice if they come across them or are involved in a incident with them.
Would you let your kids play on a busy road ?
Then why are they
Surely the 'militants' are the drivers that insist on having the road to themselves?
🙄 🙄 🙄
"Then why are they"
Because badly designed badly thought out and downright dangerous cycle paths are not as good an option ....
mixing high speed (relitively) cyclists with foot traffic.
provide us with a good(or even just safe) network of cycle paths with more than 2 ways out of town (north and south) that isnt a dirt track and isnt littered with debris and glass , oh and maintained like the roads ... ie gritted !
I commuted all winter and on most occasions i was forced onto the road as the snow was hub deep/deeper on the cycle path !
G o read cyclecraft by John Franklin. Get it from your library if they have it or ISBN 978-0-11-703740
Ro5ey, you're staying onto the recreational/essential journey argument, in which case is your motor journey essential?, should you be allowed to use the road to take you or the kiddies to their hobbies?
Should we ban all absolutely non essential traffic from the road?
so you havnt ridden on the road either jengledow
I have, but choose not to (too many idiot car drivers!) and have never ridden in a large group on the road.
My original question was why do riders appear (to me) to put themselves in more danger by riding 2/3 abreast. The idea of halving the length of a group makes sense.
Why can't some people ride in single file on the road?
Why can't some people in charge of motor vehicles drive them more safely for all concerned?
Depends entirely on the road situation. 2 abreast vs single file really doesn't make much difference to a car as bikes are generally a LOT slower than cars are. If you can't overtake a bike, or two bikes whether in single file or 2 abreast, safely in a car you really shouldn't be allowed on the road.
Riding 2 abreast is good for 2 things:
Making cars slow and consider the overtake.
Making cars angry.
Riding single file is good for 2 things:
Stretching out the length the car has to pass
Making it less likely that the car struggles to pass by allowing them some room to make a mistake.
At the end of the day there's a right and wrong for every situation, and for every person in that situation, but they rarely are the same for all people in that situation (as seen in this thread).
[i]Would you let your kids play on a busy road ?[/i]
Do you only do things that you let your kids do?
yeah coffeeking - if i lived in south englandshire im sure id just end up hiring out a race track or something to ride on at weekends. Cycling down there seems like madness.
Why can't some people in charge of motor vehicles drive them more safely for all concerned?
I agree, I also try to drive considerately, this includes giving cyclists enough space when I overtake which is sometimes difficult when riders are trying to take up all of the road.
gonna start another thread in a moment - but i have some marks on the rear of my van im going to paint - does anyone make a " leave cyclists room" sticker - similar to the "think bike" ones ? i could use to cover the badly painted marks
Ian Munro
No... but I want to make sure that I'm here to stop them.
As such, riding on the road for the sake of it,to me, is utter madness.
Choose another sport it's just far too dangerous.
Who ever is at fault for that danger, cyclist are the ones putting myself in that position.
be considerate of other road users
Regardless of whether you're driving/riding/walking. Be aware of and act accordingly too your surroundings.
Choose another sport it's just far too dangerous.
How did we ever manage to discover half the world?
- that would be giving them as much space as a car then - so it would make no difference if they were two abreast or not.JEngledow - MemberI agree, I also try to drive considerately, this includes giving cyclists enough space when I overtake which is sometimes difficult when riders are trying to take up all of the road.
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I agree, I also try to drive considerately, this includes giving cyclists enough space when I overtake which is sometimes difficult when riders are trying to take up all of the road.
Well, wait until it is safe enough to pass (whether they are riding in a double paceline or singled out). You'll get to the trail centre soon enough without having to endanger anyone else.
Choose another sport it's just far too dangerous.
shit - didnt realise it was more dangerous than downhill mtb racing - which my parents actively encouraged when i was younger -age 12-18
im off to take up crochet
Ro5ey, Its not up to you to decide whether someone is 'taking part in sport' or cycling to work. Cyclists (unlike motorists) have an automatic right to be on the road, and its YOUR obligation to drive safely around them.
As others have said, Read CYCLECRAFT!
That is such a bad photograph. The car's in the wrong road position to overtake a car and you wouldn't leave that much space when overtaking a car. I think the 'rule' is badly worded too.
ETA: I'm not disagreeing with the principle just highlighting the shortcomings in the photo/wording.
Yes west kipper but you see the chain gangs & roadies who aren't really interested in iconvenient things that reduce their average speed like....junctions, or red lights.....why is that any better than chavs getting their kicks from thinking they are on racetrack in their clios?
the chain gangs & roadies who aren't really interested in iconvenient things that reduce their average speed like....junctions, or red lights
where ? middle of a race ?
ridden with alot of chaingangs and roadies - none have done what you describe unless in a race WHERE there are marshalls & signs on each junction
although just like in all walks of life there are some cocks - just like at trail centers there are always ****ers who drop their "red bull tins and gel packets"
TandemJeremy and ourmaninthenorth,
The issues I was having were on some of Oxfordshire’s country roads on Saturday, the roads are fairly narrow and don't have road markings, I don't mind waiting behind bikes while going around corners, but do get p*ssed off when they leave very little room for me to pass on the straights.
You'll get to the trail centre soon enough without having to endanger anyone else
For what it's worth I was working, so what's the need for this?? 🙄
'You see the chain gangs and roadies that...' no, I dont. Any chain gang I've been part of has been 100% legal with zero tolerance for naughty boys or girls.
And the thread was complaining about perfectly legal behaviour, not RLJing etc.
JEngledow - were they taking up more width than a car? Were you able to pass safely on a straight stretch? could you have overtaken a car there?
I fail to see what your issue is - they have a right to ride on the road and you have a duty to pass safely and to leave at least as much room as you would a car.
Its all about mutual respect for other road users. A lot people seem to possess it, some people don't.
It goes for ALL road users. No one group has the right to be on the roads.
Tractors don't by law have to pull over and let cars past them, however where i live thats exactly what they do.
Caravan users don't have to do that either but having followed many through the roads of wales and scotland thats exactly what a lot do.
Cyclists don't have to pull over to a single file on the road to make it easier for cars to overtake, but most do.
Taking risks to discover the half the world ..... is somewhat different to getting kicks with your mates on a Sunday morning riding a bike on the road... its a past time a hobby that is all... Ridiculously a dangerous one.
I'd happily let my lad ride down hill comps as would I.... him and only him would be in control of the situation. Team sports are obvious good as well, where he wouldn't be so totally in control…. but his opposition is not going to be tonne or more of metal.
Road riding chain gangs are not riding to work... and I'd read as much literature as you could send me. BUT ... its not ME you have to worry about, is it?
There's certainly roads that the extra metre needed to ride 2 abreast makes a safe overtake marginal & single file would make it [relatively] safe
I would hope most cyclists would recognise this & move to single file when required
Actually hainey you are wrong - pedestrians cyclists and horse and there as of right - motorised vehicles have to be licensed and so do their drivers
There's certainly a case for not allowing long tailbacks to form (where its unnecessary) but what I object to is motorists, many of whom haven't read the road properly, just expecting the cyclists to immediately jump out of the way.
Or worse, You're doing average traffic speed, and the driver still is trying to pass, simply BECAUSE you're on two wheels.
As we can see on this thread, there's a lot of people who dont know either the law, or the highway code.
TJ,
It makes NO difference at all. We all use the roads, so all should respect each other. Something a lot of people fail to see.
TandemJeremy - Member
Actually hainey you are wrong - pedestrians cyclists and horse and there as of right - motorised vehicles have to be licensed and so do their drivers
While technically correct, in reality this is meaningless.
were they taking up more width than a car? Were you able to pass safely on a straight stretch? could you have overtaken a car there?
No, Yes, Yes.
I fail to see what your issue is - they have a right to ride on the road and you have a duty to pass safely and to leave at least as much room as you would a car.
My issue is that I was careful and passed safeley while other drivers may not have done, by riding 2/3 abreast the cyclists left less space for faster vehicles to overtake and so put themselves at greater risk.
It makes NO difference at all. We all use the roads, so all should respect each other. Something a lot of people fail to see.
+1
"...something a lot of people fail to see" well, that was you hainey, and ro5ey, earlier in the thread. Nice to see you're being more reasonable now though! 😉
West Kipper, you seem to be hell bent on being argumentative and making things up. Why? Bored?
I fail to see what your issue is
I suppose that's fine if you assume cyclists are doing 15-20mph, generally it's not much of a hold-up, but consider, if you will, a car doing 10mph (sometimes less) in a 60 limit country road, you'd find that annoying and dangerous. The same is true of 2 slow cyclists riding 2 abreast in a country road. On a nice wide normal road it's no problem, and neither would the slow car be, but on some roads it just makes it more likely that someone will make a stupid move and benefits no-one, rights aside.
Cynic al, ask Daniel Cadden about how meaningless the law is.
hainey, I'm not bored at all, I'm just a roadie that is well versed in putting bad drivers right. And I've made nothing up.
I think we all generally assume whatever vehicle we are in/on at the time has priority 🙂
Good you don't do the things I've seen others do WK....when the red mist comes down on anyone on the road, it makes them behave selfishly. I used to do it as a kid but eventually I realised 99% of others are just trying to get from A to B without dying or any drama.
Not sure I was ever unreasonable. Just pointing out uncomfortable truths
JEngledow - Member"were they taking up more width than a car? Were you able to pass safely on a straight stretch? could you have overtaken a car there?"
No, Yes, Yes.
In that case there is no issue at all - and by riding like that they are ensuring a car doesn't try to squeeze past where there is not enough room. Its actually safer to ride out into the road. Basci defensive riding.
I spent a day in London as a cycle courier.. The advice I was given by the guys who do it day in day out for a living is that make yourself visible. Take up your space.. Don't cower in the gutter or you will be killed. The pro's know how to handle traffic and stay alive and it isn't by keeping away from it.
TJ as you failed to read it last time I’ll post it again:
My issue is that I was careful and passed safely while other drivers may not have done, by riding 2/3 abreast the cyclists left less space for faster vehicles to overtake and so put themselves at greater risk.
I just wanted to know if there was any reason behind their choice.
west-kipper - where's the judgement? NO mention of that on the articles google brings up.
Yes - its safer to ride like that - the line of bikes is shorter and by being further out into the road it is safer as visibility is greater.
HTH
JEngledow
if you had happened upon a large horse would you have been on horseriderworld.com moaning that horses shouldnt be on the road because fast cars are held up for a few seconds.
Ro5ey - Member
The worry I have about road "pleasure" cycling is the same worry I have about people riding high performance motor bikes.Both are using the public highway as a playground !!
That seems to me to be very dangerous. Especially to themselves but also to other road users who are not "playing" but trying to get from A to B.
Others don't want to be in their "game" but have no choice if they come across them or are involved in a incident with them.
Would you let your kids play on a busy road ?
Then why are they
How many car journeys are neccessary? most journeys are under a couple of miles, so are obviously as pointless as riding a bike. Why shouldn't kids play in the street, that has been the norm for generations, and to be blunt makes an environment a better place to be than the sterile city scape of new build flats and houses designed with the car as king. I have seen estates with no pavements, the whole environment is designed for cars with no consideration for other users and this in a residential area!
JEngledow, I recognised that yours was a mostly honest question, and I hope that the answers that we've given hint that its not simply a matter of being selfish/ confrontational with group riding.
Sometimes theres very good reasons behind the way cyclists ride, that are not always obvious to the following motorist.