[Closed] Whats wrong with my climbing?

😀

12st is close to a good cycling weight for me; I'm 6'3".......

Sorry but being fast in a social group bears no relation to being race fit.

You're just not fit enough, you need to train more.

Let me know the answer I can't club for shit on the mtb, always kick Mrs K on the road bike or on the cx but in a mtb not a chance 🙂

I'm aiming to be 12st by the time the sun starts shining a bit more after the spring equinox.

I'm just shy of 13 now, and when I went out on the mountain bike yesterday, found technical climbs extremely difficult. With me right now, it's almost definitely a fitness thing.

OK. That's fine. As long as I know what it is...
Whilst I take some of the point that being fast in a social group means nothing, one of our "social" rides is occasionally a 1hr 30 effective Road Time Trial. Its anything but social! and fitness for that is fine. 🙂

I'll aim to lose a stone at least... by riding more. and eating less.
If climbing is all about power to weight, is it worth joining a gym and doing weights/squats etc?

Sorry but being fast in a social group bears no relation to being race fit.
You're just not fit enough, you need to train more.

I would agree with this 100%, but would also say that off-road technique will have something to do with it. I have some serious rebuilding to do, fitness-wise, but I also know that when I am in top form I can climb extremely well indeed on the road. My skills off-road, though, seriously limit what I am able to do.

Sorry but being fast in a social group bears no relation to being race fit.

This. And like it or loathe it 12st at 5'7" is pretty hefty for racing. You may not be fat by Joe public's standards but there's a big difference between thin and athlete thin.

If climbing is all about power to weight, is it worth joining a gym and doing weights/squats etc?

No; gym work kills brain cells.

Sorry to be blunt, but by racing standards you ate all the pies.
At 5'7 10st would be a pretty good to be strong for typical UK riding.

I go for road rides with a really fast guy and am always hanging on to keep up.. Its done wonders for my fitness. Luckily im only 61kg so theres not alot of me to go uphill. Do some more sprint intervals and hill attacks. But you have to literally put absolutely everything into it to get something out. Getting fitter is hard work..

Lose weight, get fitter as folks have said.

Out of interest, what race were you doing last night?

This thread had cheered up my 15st of flab no end.

So I need to be sub 11st then ha ha

Out of interest, what race were you doing last night?

This one?

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Yep extra weight and fitness. I'm 6'1 and at my best weighed 78kg(12 1/4 stone). Now about 84 and need to lose a whole lot.

Was still left behind in many XC races by whippets weighing 10kg less.

Trying to get fit again this year for some endurance and mtb marathon racing.

I'm 6'4" and I reckon my racing weight is 13st or perhaps just under.

You're too heavy as a start point which means your power to weight ratio is off. Yes, you could add some power but you're much better off losing some weight, a stone at least, if not 2. You could also do some specific training, if you're struggling on on steep stuff do some work on the turbo on short, hard efforts, up to a minute (longer if the climbs you struggle on are longer) at a variety of cadences.

And have we mentioned losing some weight?

Last nights race was the Mud and Sweat Series at Haldon, Exeter.
http://mudandsweat.com/nightrider3.html

A good low key series at two Foresty Commission sites. Last night was interesting in that it also attracted a lot of the local DH guys who more than made up time on the off piste trails in the dark that we hadn't memorised!!

Ok.I get the message, although the wife has told me that 10st is too skinny for me I'll aim for 11 until she gets used to it!

This thread had cheered up my 15st of flab no end.

So I need to be sub 11st then ha ha

Can i just add that if you are going to lose weight, don't do it like a couch potato (I.e pure calorie restriction).

There is a book called Racing weight, its a great resource for someone who does sport and is trying to slim down.

Lose weight, that'll make a huge difference to your power to weight ratio.

I'm 5 8" and went from just over 11st to 9st 10lbs and the difference was huge, my fitness has boomed compared to a year ago. I sit in the middle of that BMI chart for recommended weight and I'm not skin and bone Froome style either.

You're sub 10st and think that's in the middle of normal weight,?

Are you a 13 year old girl?

It may also be that you're not able to ride at high outputs, try some short intervals.

I didn't see your height/weight, that's the first thing to attack.

If you lose weight while getting fitter and developing your high end, win, win, win.

At 6' I was sub 11 stone at one point. Only managed to podium a couple of Scottish masters races.

Well just to add another dimension, I did that race too Duncan, I'm 1/2 inch taller than you and 12stone too, I remember riding past you on the climb, and I went on to get 2nd in masters and 7th overall*, and crashed twice pulling the hose out of my rear brake on lap one which made the next 3 laps a bit challenging!

I always lose my places on the climbs too because I'm overweight, but I have enough power to ( almost ) compensate for it, so yes we both need to lose weight but brute force also helps!

*was 5th until the last 750m but lost a sprint as I was cream crackerd by that point!

weeksy - Member
You're sub 10st and think that's in the middle of normal weight,?

Are you a 13 year old girl?

Calm down fatty.

You're lucky Larry, using a Weeksy calculator i'd be an 11yr old girl 🙄

There is a book called Racing weight, its a great resource for someone who does sport and is trying to slim down.

This is good for understanding. But, it's simply a questions of watts/kg or how strong you are for your your given weight with a bit of technique thrown in.

Spend a bit of time training to up your power and embrace the pain, and at the same time eat a healthy related diet probably with less shite and calories.

Racing hurts if your doing it properly.

I did that race last night too and if it makes you feel any better I'm 5'9 and just over 10 stone and finished 58th so weight isn't everything.

That was my first race in about 3 years just to see how unfit i was as since my daughter was born I just haven't had time to put the miles in and when i do get out on the bike I'm doing more D/H orientated rides too. And I did it on a very non xc hardtail just to get another excuse in 😆

You're the same height and weight as me...26.4 on the BMI chart I believe which is in the overweight class. I don't race but ride with someone fit and at the right weight and when it gets really steep and not technical he keeps going and I disappear backwards.

If you can swim and have a good pool nearby that is one of the best ways to lose fat healthily while building your cardio. I know it's not what the pros do but the pros don't start out two stone overweight and probably don't drink 10-20 pints a week or eat piles of cheese.

So far this year I've managed just under 10k a week in the pool and only ridden at the weekend. The change in such a short time is unreal, if I was out on the road bike or night riding in my evenings I'd be ill with a chesty cold by now.

Just my two penneth...

I'd agree to some extent about the weight, but I wouldn't worry about it too much, just get out and ride more, and watch what you eat, rather than trying to lose weight.

one of our "social" rides is occasionally a 1hr 30 effective Road Time Trial

I remember a rule of thumb for racing cyclist's weight: height in inches = weight in Kg. So at 5'7" = 67" = 67Kg which Google tells me is 10st7lbs. A pure climber will weigh even less.

In addition to not weighing as much you probably need some race conditioning - most of us will back off when things start to hurt, racers will keep pushing.

So at 5'7" = 67" = 67Kg which Google tells me is 10st7lbs. A pure climber will weigh even less.

Had a quick play with a spreadsheet and [url= http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/PowerSpeedScenarios.aspx ]cyclingpowerlab[/url].

Riding a road climb of 100m at 10%. You hit the base of the climb alongside that 67kg rider (adding 11kg of bike and 3kg of kit). Say you both do 500 watts up the hill. He'll be travelling at 19.5 kph, you'll be doing 17.9 kph. He'll get to the top about 1.65 seconds before you. Might not sound much but after that 20 seconds of effort you'll be over 8m behind him. To keep up you'd need over 50 watts more power.

If the climbs are quite short too it's also a question of whether you can put in repeated bursts of power way over threshold, while riding most the rest of the course at close to threshold power (assuming the race is about an hour long.) Some people are much better at these sorts of effort than others.

Oh and I'm 6ft and 71kg, to be competitive at XC I know I'd need to lose weight 🙂 (as demonstrated by ferrals post below!)

whitestone - Member

I remember a rule of thumb for racing cyclist's weight: height in inches = weight in Kg. So at 5'7" = 67" = 67Kg which Google tells me is 10st7lbs. A pure climber will weigh even less.

Hmmm, I'm 5'7 and I race xc and cx as much as wifely forebearance will allow, my 'racing weight'* is closer to 57kg. I am good on climbs, its my strongest point, but I still get smoked by the fit guys.

However, one thing to think about is were you warmed up enough for a climb off the start? I find I can sprint ok (for me) even if not super warmed up, but hit the first climb unprepared and its brutal. Pain management is much harder on a climb when you dont have the sprint adrenaline.

*Not intentional racing weight just what happens by riding a lot and avoiding cakes, at the moment people keep giving me cakes, I've put on over half a stone since mid december!

edit: also like you I find long climbs a breeze, and anyithng up to about 10% is fine, beyond about 12% though and I'm struggling, seems like for me thats the cut off where aerobic is less important and anaerobic power moreso, or maybe just where my position on the bike is not eficient

Yes, it's a rule of thumb so probably wrong. Does go to show just how light racing cyclists are though.

I'm 5'11" so should be 71Kg according to that. The last time I was at that sort of weight I was suffering from a severe tropical gut disease and the results weren't pleasant! Once I go below somewhere in the 78-80Kg range then I look very thin and gaunt.

Yes, it's a rule of thumb so probably wrong.

I was going to use it as an excuse to eat more!

great post.

hi dabaldie.. i'm based in somerset.. i'm also 5'7, and also just over 12st!

i've also known for a long time that my weak point is climbs. what i've read is that the important factor is your vO2max.

on top of losing weight there are two ways to do this:

1) ride up lots of hills 🙂
2) do HIIT

i do '1' every weekend, and when able to '2' do HIIT midweek on an indoor bike

when doing '1' i use an HRM and stop myself over-exerting (my experiience tells me 160 is the max level to keep at and over 175 means rest right away).

as ferrals said, certain ckimbs aren't too bad, but really steep ones push the heart rate up super quick

any input

remember a rule of thumb for racing cyclist's weight: height in inches = weight in Kg

even thats got fatter!! I knew it as twice height in inches = weight in pounds

your version adds 10%

I also know that when I am in top form I can climb extremely well indeed on the road.

Last summer he was quite a bit quicker than me on road, but still slower off it. And he's 15kg lighter. Technique is a lot of it.

But I also think with MTBing it's to do with power delivery above threshold. I know a guy who is powerful up to his threshold which is high and he can hold it for ages, but can't really go over it at all. On the road he can climb well because he's also light, but off-road when you need 30 seconds of extreme grunt to get up something steep, he can't find it.

whereas I am 5 10 and weigh 71 (so should lose a kg according to that guideline)

I would never describe myself as thin at all. I think I would need to get down to around 65kg before looking thin.

he can hold it for ages, but can't really go over it at all. On the road he can climb well because he's also light, but off-road when you need 30 seconds of extreme grunt to get up something steep, he can't find it.

That just described me almost perfectly.
You get good at what you practice, and for me i spent years practising to be strong on hour long climbs when on holidays in the mountains. Maybe not the smartest training for the other 51 weeks of the year living in a country with very few long climbs......

That just described me almost perfectly.

Me too 🙂 Again a case of being (fairly) good at what you practice, and I train mostly for time trials.

Again a case of being (fairly) good at what you practice, and I train mostly for time trials.

Not convinced, actually - I think it may be more a case of wanting to do what you're good at. Sprinters gotta sprint, testers gotta test, to paraphrase the pelican in Finding Nemo.

I find that there's always an angle of climb that I don't get on with: might be fine on 11% and 13% but useless on 12%. Probably a mixture of my gearing and natural cadence range.

I find it best to train on a hill with a variety of cadences: spin up it on one rep; go up a gear for the next and so on. Obviously you get to a point where you can't physically turn the pedals but it stops you training in one particular rut. Also helps if the hill isn't too long - a couple of minutes is fine.

Not convinced, actually - I think it may be more a case of wanting to do what you're good at. Sprinters gotta sprint, testers gotta test, to paraphrase the pelican in Finding Nemo.

Bit of both - at 58kg I could train nothing but sprints and still be terrible at them (unless they pointed up something steep!). That's not to say i don't like a daft sprint every now and again though
But I like holidays in the mountains, so no hardship tailoring my training towards that.

I think it may be more a case of wanting to do what you're good at.

I wish! 🙂

Lots of talk of weight in this thread, and I have no doubt that my climbing would be improved if I didn't weigh 80kg. However, the techniques involved in climbing - or indeed riding - off-road should not be underestimated. I've been out on my MTB with fellow roadies who destroy me on the roads on anything with even the slightest uphill gradient, yet throw some rocks, mud and even a bit of snow into the mix and I'm the one waiting for them.

when you need 30 seconds of extreme grunt to get up something steep, he can't find it.

I think this is probably very true. I can't climb for toffee on the road and I'm not that great off-road, but I can usually find that extra udge to overcome short, hard sections.

In summary, don't listen to me; I can't climb at all 😆

I could train nothing but sprints and still be terrible at them (unless they pointed up something steep!)

That's what I'm saying - you've got no incentive to train at them, cos you would still be rubbish and hence wasting your time.

I also think we get more innate satisfaction from whatever it is we're predisposed to do, and whatever we're NOT predisposed for, we tend not to like cos we're bad at it. I hate TTing for example.

I find it best to train on a hill with a variety of cadences: spin up it on one rep; go up a gear for the next and so on. Obviously you get to a point where you can't physically turn the pedals but it stops you training in one particular rut. Also helps if the hill isn't too long - a couple of minutes is fine.

This is a good idea, will encorporate that into my next hill climb session, don't tend to consider cadence unless I'm on the turbo, just work to HR

Another possiblity, albeit unlikely, saddle-bb position? Different on your MTB and road bike?
Muscle recruitment is different when on a steep climb, e.g. glutes and hamstrings. I notice this most when at low-cadence with no more gears on a nasty climb. Measured via a plumb line from nose of saddle to bb 2cm makes a vast difference to what muscles get engaged, particularly on climbs.

I'm no climbing expert but i'm 5"8 and weigh just over 10 stone after a year of road riding so i'd say you're at least a couple of stone off being "race" weight.

If climbing is all about power to weight, is it worth joining a gym and doing weights/squats etc?

yep, and this.

And apparently all the fast boys around Calderdale are riding carbon hardtail 29ers.

So you need to do 3 things:

1 - More hills
2 - lose weight (which will come with riding up more hills)
3 - buy a new bike.

Or you could just ride because you enjoy it and not because you want to be better than the rest 😉

I have the same problem. I'm usually faster (compared to other's) on gradual climbs, flat sections and slight downhills that require pedalling at speed. But when its steep, I'm awful. Don't know what it is. I think maybe I've got the fitness but not the leg strength ? Or I just need a lower bottom gear ?

So the general consensus is that there are a few 5'7 12st riders out there, but we are all overweight.
This time last year I was a few kg lighter, but rode 5k miles the previous year, this year just gone was only 3,000 miles so definitely a lot less fit now.
Picking up a few comments above. I thought I was warmed up (practice lap and a few bimbles around the area), but we were on the start line for a good 20 minutes and it was -1 so that wasn't clever.
I also agree with the comment about the perfect gradient. Some climbs in my area I fly up, yet some shallower ones I really struggle.
Really steep technical climbs are fine as I have the technique (and 30years experience)and very short term power, hence being good in a start sprint, but rubbish on the medium length climbs.
I've got some of the fitness base (can ride all day inc Pivot 12hr), but guess I need to up the power/weight and speed.

I'll keep you updated on the weight loss and race results, although I think I might drop down from Vets to Open for a few races to keep the moral up. I really enjoy racing as it is more about the social side than actual position, but beating some peers occasionally is fun.
Thanks all.. oh and yes I would like to buy a new carbon hardtail, maybe I'll treat myself once I've lost 20lb.

So the general consensus is that there are a few 5'7 12st riders out there, but we are all overweight.

Well I'm 5ft 8in & about 12 stone.

I'm slightly overweight according to NHS guidelines, and definitely heavier than I should be for bike racing.

I ride a lot and consider myself reasonably fit, which means I can hold my own with some lighter friends on climbs. But friends who are both fit and skinny can drop me pretty easily on sustained climbs.

I also think there's something in training to replicate that race effort, with short hill intervals. When I did that I was at my fittest, but have plateaued then tailed off a bit since TBH - despite doing more riding overall now.

I'm 5'8" with a stockyish built and used to be over 13 stone. Dropped to just over 12 stone and never really noticed a whole lot of difference. Then dropped to 11 stone and started flying up climbs! Noticed a massive difference.

That's at least relative to myself anyway - I've not really the build for climbing. I ended up dropping to a shade under 10 stone at one point...but I looked ill, and not sure I really got any faster. 10.5 11 stone seems to be my sweet spot. Although I'm pretty sure I could get lighter and leaner with a better diet.

saddle-bb position

I find it quite hard to get the power down on my Patriot. It has a 66 deg HA just like a modern enduro bike, but the seat angle is something like 71. On top of that, the dropper I now have is layback too!

I wonder if I can get a saddle with longer rails to get it more forward...

Hmmm interesting analysis.

I struggle with Vo2max and last year on a "power" profile test I kind out I was " sprinter", crap up long climbs ok up short ones.

My former rugby career as outside centre saw me spend many years sprint training and I was a fast not long distance runner in the school playground.

I practised this - sprinting - in last years races and it worked well for me until I got "marked" on the starts and died on the rest of the lap. This years training has seen better vo2max and muscular endurance and now I'm able to tap out a climb much better than before.

Currently 5'11.5 and 73.5kg - according to the Maths above I need to lose another 6lbs 😀

Kryton.

If you were one of the fast kids at school and fast on the rugby pitch then you're physiologically a sprinter. So you probably feel like sprinting when you ride, which means your riding ends up being sprint training, which reinforces your sprint bias.

As I was told by a sports science professor at Cardiff Institute, natural sprinters have more type II than type I, and natural endurance people have about the same of each or maybe slightly more type I. It's possible to move the balance towards type I i.e. improve endurance, but not very easy or productive to try and move the other way. Which backs up the traditional advice saying that sprinters are born not made.

Kryton.

If you were one of the fast kids at school and fast on the rugby pitch then you're physiologically a sprinter. So you probably feel like sprinting when you ride, which means your riding ends up being sprint training, which reinforces your sprint bias.

As I was told by a sports science professor at Cardiff Institute, natural sprinters have more type II than type I, and natural endurance people have about the same of each or maybe slightly more type I. It's possible to move the balance towards type I i.e. improve endurance, but not very easy or productive to try and move the other way. Which backs up the traditional advice saying that sprinters are born not made.

Interesting Molgrips. I think I'm a sprinter, or always used to be one of the quicker ones playing football. I think all my fast twitch fibres have gone though. Is that possible? I tried to jump onto a platform which I thought would be easy, but I struggled to do it.....

I think it deteriorates as you get older.

Plus when you are a kid you spend all your time sprinting around a football pitch or a playground. I stopped doing that when I left school, and took up an endurance sport, so I think I trained myself to be a bit less sprinty. And I got old.

I didn't ride the Haldon race as I'm not fat enough, but wasn't it really expensive? That and a lack of pies really put me off.

I think it deteriorates as you get older.

That's probably true. I know someone who swears by doing "fast twitch" stuff like jumps and whatnot, apparently it prolongs your life or betters your health or something.

On the flip side molgrips, i do ok on longer endurance events also (>12h). My own analysis seems to show that i get "less tired" than others over that time.

That doesnt reflect type 2 at all.

Edit: I suppose i could answer my own question - ever since i changed from Rugby to cycling ive be training myself over longer and longer distances of course. Ive neglected sprinting, but I guess e physiology remains.

Like I say - you can train for endurance.

I think it easy to fixate on weight but really it is lack of fitness, improve that and your weight will probably fall also.

But one thing that is worth thinking about is when you get to the top of a climb the fit boys will accelerate over the top and those just hanging on will still be recovering, that is where the big time gaps can open. That's fitness and ability to stay in the red longer.

I think it easy to fixate on weight but really it is lack of fitness

Hmm. Power/weight ratio is the main figure. 10kg of lost weight could be much easier to achieve than the corresponding power increase, depending on how lardy you are in the first place.

More targeted training, some weight loss and possibly more data analysis. Examine how hard you're pushing when you're being passed. Are you really in the red or just not used to real pain.

FWIW Endurance training is not good for learning to bury yourself, recover and repeat. It gives a great base and long term grit but I've been amazed how training at high intensity and doing more XC has got me used to pain.

Racing can really hurt - one of the reasons I do less than some.

Damned good read this thread.

I'm not even the OP but I've learnt a lot from it. 🙂

I was thinking the same, Poopscoop 🙂

the techniques involved in climbing - or indeed riding - off-road should not be underestimated.

I'll second this. Have you ever been on a skills course? You may be able to improve your climbing technique with simple things (thumbs on top of the bars).............

The OP talked about a gravel fireroad climb though, while I completely agree that offroad climbing skill is important, most fireroads require very little offroad skill.

offtopic but technical climbing is without doubt my favourite part of mtb, nothing gives me more satisfaction than clearing a steep and technical climb. Currently working on one by my house which is a gully ranging from 2-4ft wide, with lots of loose boulders and rock and root steps that is always wet. Not cleared it yet but getting closer 😀

Hmm. Power/weight ratio is the main figure.

Yes but the power side is huge chunk of that, ideally you increase power and drop weight. Your training should focus on going hard via intervals and the weight side will pretty much take care of itself.

I raced on the road for a good few seasons and my performance improved dramatically over that time, however, I my weight was pretty static, so weight isn't everything by a long way.

No but it depends how fat you are. If you are 14% fat then you haven't got much to lose. If however you are an 18 stone biffer then you'd have to be more powerful than a pro to be able to.climb well.

OP, I used to race with a couple of weighty chaps. Reality is, unless you are fitter than those around you, you are going to struggle. I would suggest you race on circuits which are likely to have a sprint finish, and, get expert quite quick at being in the right position at the bottom of climbs. The front is OK if you can climb and hold the front, but, if you cant, you might want to be on the wheel of a climber who is sat mid pack and follow his wheel, not that drafting will help that much but the mental desire to stay on will you up, you have to go anarobic for a whle! As you crest, you want to be in the top 3rd of the pack minimum and if you wish, let a few past as you recover but not so many as you get dropped, its an art in itself. Its the only way you will stay on those hilly circuits. Build on your hill climbing aiming at 1. shifting up going over the crest and accelerating away, 2. high speed recovery while cresting

Edit. Looking at what you say about your physique, Id focus on sprinting rather than climbing. Have you tried track racing?

My fireroad climbing improved massively last year when a mental switch told me to treat it like an interval, and tap out a constant cadence and est. power via RPE and focus on that not people coming me tinged with angry disapointment.

And yes, carry on over the top, aim for 100m perhaps before you ease off and you will drop those who are rested / tired. Hard start intervals are good for this if your're a sprinter as they force you not to drop your power as you exit the start/climb enter the sub threshold portion aka bak on the flatter single track.

Edit: I found this article useful in explaining the difference in physiology despite the same power output. https://cyclingtips.com/2013/09/climbing-and-time-trialling-how-power-outputs-are-affected/

Edit:

Looking at what you say about your physique, Id focus on sprinting rather than climbing. Have you tried track racing?

In my penultimate race last year the ding dong I had with the two riders who eventually lost to me on the final sprint was exactly like this - they'd rell me in on the climbs, I'd distance them on the flat. It was then just a case of positing correctly for the sprint as I didn't know the others capabilities at the time.

In my penultimate race last year the ding dong I had with the two riders who eventually lost to me on the final sprint was exactly like this - they'd rell me in on the climbs, I'd distance them on the flat. It was then just a case of positing correctly for the sprint as I didn't know the others capabilities at the time

This is more or less the exact opposite of most of my races, I reel people in on the climbs, my lack of technical descending confidence measn they drop me, i get back on the climbs, loose time again on the descents. If comes to a sprint I have nothing to give. 😕

I was having severe mental issues with technical riding last year though which I seem to have shaken so I'm looking forward to a few races come spring, even though I'm not going to specifically train for xc this year.

I was having severe mental issues with technical riding

I still am :/ I attributed this in 2016 to virtually zero MTBing in the winter as I pursued Trainerroad interval pretty much 100% of my time. The result - as soon as I approach wet roots I was under confident and therefor slow.

I'm rectifying that with more mid-plan actual riding this year.

Edit: I found this article useful in explaining the difference in physiology despite the same power output. https://cyclingtips.com/2013/09/climbing-and-time-trialling-how-power-outputs-are-affected/

Good article that. Even further off topic, it's the same reason turbo work and road work are very different. Turbo's typically have nowhere near the same levels of KE you have on the road and tend to be a lot better at simulating low energy patterns (like climbing) than high energy ones (like a fast flat road.)

I'm actually good at climbing in all respects, except one - I'm too slow. I relish a good climb, I can pace them well, I can vary my pace to attack, I can find my threshold much better than on the flat. But the lard just holds me back, literally.

Technique can help
Peter Sagan

it's the same reason turbo work and road work are very different.

This is what happened when I stated in the other thread that I've no FTP increase or little medals at all this year to date, but out on the road my [i]sustainable power[/i] is demonstrably higher than last year in the club rides.