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I could train nothing but sprints and still be terrible at them (unless they pointed up something steep!)
That's what I'm saying - you've got no incentive to train at them, cos you would still be rubbish and hence wasting your time.
I also think we get more innate satisfaction from whatever it is we're predisposed to do, and whatever we're NOT predisposed for, we tend not to like cos we're bad at it. I hate TTing for example.
I find it best to train on a hill with a variety of cadences: spin up it on one rep; go up a gear for the next and so on. Obviously you get to a point where you can't physically turn the pedals but it stops you training in one particular rut. Also helps if the hill isn't too long - a couple of minutes is fine.
This is a good idea, will encorporate that into my next hill climb session, don't tend to consider cadence unless I'm on the turbo, just work to HR
Another possiblity, albeit unlikely, saddle-bb position? Different on your MTB and road bike?
Muscle recruitment is different when on a steep climb, e.g. glutes and hamstrings. I notice this most when at low-cadence with no more gears on a nasty climb. Measured via a plumb line from nose of saddle to bb 2cm makes a vast difference to what muscles get engaged, particularly on climbs.
I'm no climbing expert but i'm 5"8 and weigh just over 10 stone after a year of road riding so i'd say you're at least a couple of stone off being "race" weight.
If climbing is all about power to weight, is it worth joining a gym and doing weights/squats etc?
yep, and this.
And apparently all the fast boys around Calderdale are riding carbon hardtail 29ers.
So you need to do 3 things:
1 - More hills
2 - lose weight (which will come with riding up more hills)
3 - buy a new bike.
Or you could just ride because you enjoy it and not because you want to be better than the rest 😉
I have the same problem. I'm usually faster (compared to other's) on gradual climbs, flat sections and slight downhills that require pedalling at speed. But when its steep, I'm awful. Don't know what it is. I think maybe I've got the fitness but not the leg strength ? Or I just need a lower bottom gear ?
So the general consensus is that there are a few 5'7 12st riders out there, but we are all overweight.
This time last year I was a few kg lighter, but rode 5k miles the previous year, this year just gone was only 3,000 miles so definitely a lot less fit now.
Picking up a few comments above. I thought I was warmed up (practice lap and a few bimbles around the area), but we were on the start line for a good 20 minutes and it was -1 so that wasn't clever.
I also agree with the comment about the perfect gradient. Some climbs in my area I fly up, yet some shallower ones I really struggle.
Really steep technical climbs are fine as I have the technique (and 30years experience)and very short term power, hence being good in a start sprint, but rubbish on the medium length climbs.
I've got some of the fitness base (can ride all day inc Pivot 12hr), but guess I need to up the power/weight and speed.
I'll keep you updated on the weight loss and race results, although I think I might drop down from Vets to Open for a few races to keep the moral up. I really enjoy racing as it is more about the social side than actual position, but beating some peers occasionally is fun.
Thanks all.. oh and yes I would like to buy a new carbon hardtail, maybe I'll treat myself once I've lost 20lb.
So the general consensus is that there are a few 5'7 12st riders out there, but we are all overweight.
Well I'm 5ft 8in & about 12 stone.
I'm slightly overweight according to NHS guidelines, and definitely heavier than I should be for bike racing.
I ride a lot and consider myself reasonably fit, which means I can hold my own with some lighter friends on climbs. But friends who are both fit and skinny can drop me pretty easily on sustained climbs.
I also think there's something in training to replicate that race effort, with short hill intervals. When I did that I was at my fittest, but have plateaued then tailed off a bit since TBH - despite doing more riding overall now.
I'm 5'8" with a stockyish built and used to be over 13 stone. Dropped to just over 12 stone and never really noticed a whole lot of difference. Then dropped to 11 stone and started flying up climbs! Noticed a massive difference.
That's at least relative to myself anyway - I've not really the build for climbing. I ended up dropping to a shade under 10 stone at one point...but I looked ill, and not sure I really got any faster. 10.5 11 stone seems to be my sweet spot. Although I'm pretty sure I could get lighter and leaner with a better diet.
saddle-bb position
I find it quite hard to get the power down on my Patriot. It has a 66 deg HA just like a modern enduro bike, but the seat angle is something like 71. On top of that, the dropper I now have is layback too!
I wonder if I can get a saddle with longer rails to get it more forward...
Hmmm interesting analysis.
I struggle with Vo2max and last year on a "power" profile test I kind out I was " sprinter", crap up long climbs ok up short ones.
My former rugby career as outside centre saw me spend many years sprint training and I was a fast not long distance runner in the school playground.
I practised this - sprinting - in last years races and it worked well for me until I got "marked" on the starts and died on the rest of the lap. This years training has seen better vo2max and muscular endurance and now I'm able to tap out a climb much better than before.
Currently 5'11.5 and 73.5kg - according to the Maths above I need to lose another 6lbs 😀
Kryton.
If you were one of the fast kids at school and fast on the rugby pitch then you're physiologically a sprinter. So you probably feel like sprinting when you ride, which means your riding ends up being sprint training, which reinforces your sprint bias.
As I was told by a sports science professor at Cardiff Institute, natural sprinters have more type II than type I, and natural endurance people have about the same of each or maybe slightly more type I. It's possible to move the balance towards type I i.e. improve endurance, but not very easy or productive to try and move the other way. Which backs up the traditional advice saying that sprinters are born not made.
Kryton.If you were one of the fast kids at school and fast on the rugby pitch then you're physiologically a sprinter. So you probably feel like sprinting when you ride, which means your riding ends up being sprint training, which reinforces your sprint bias.
As I was told by a sports science professor at Cardiff Institute, natural sprinters have more type II than type I, and natural endurance people have about the same of each or maybe slightly more type I. It's possible to move the balance towards type I i.e. improve endurance, but not very easy or productive to try and move the other way. Which backs up the traditional advice saying that sprinters are born not made.
Interesting Molgrips. I think I'm a sprinter, or always used to be one of the quicker ones playing football. I think all my fast twitch fibres have gone though. Is that possible? I tried to jump onto a platform which I thought would be easy, but I struggled to do it.....
I think it deteriorates as you get older.
Plus when you are a kid you spend all your time sprinting around a football pitch or a playground. I stopped doing that when I left school, and took up an endurance sport, so I think I trained myself to be a bit less sprinty. And I got old.
I didn't ride the Haldon race as I'm not fat enough, but wasn't it really expensive? That and a lack of pies really put me off.
I think it deteriorates as you get older.
That's probably true. I know someone who swears by doing "fast twitch" stuff like jumps and whatnot, apparently it prolongs your life or betters your health or something.
On the flip side molgrips, i do ok on longer endurance events also (>12h). My own analysis seems to show that i get "less tired" than others over that time.
That doesnt reflect type 2 at all.
Edit: I suppose i could answer my own question - ever since i changed from Rugby to cycling ive be training myself over longer and longer distances of course. Ive neglected sprinting, but I guess e physiology remains.
Like I say - you can train for endurance.
I think it easy to fixate on weight but really it is lack of fitness, improve that and your weight will probably fall also.
But one thing that is worth thinking about is when you get to the top of a climb the fit boys will accelerate over the top and those just hanging on will still be recovering, that is where the big time gaps can open. That's fitness and ability to stay in the red longer.
I think it easy to fixate on weight but really it is lack of fitness
Hmm. Power/weight ratio is the main figure. 10kg of lost weight could be much easier to achieve than the corresponding power increase, depending on how lardy you are in the first place.
More targeted training, some weight loss and possibly more data analysis. Examine how hard you're pushing when you're being passed. Are you really in the red or just not used to real pain.
FWIW Endurance training is not good for learning to bury yourself, recover and repeat. It gives a great base and long term grit but I've been amazed how training at high intensity and doing more XC has got me used to pain.
Racing can really hurt - one of the reasons I do less than some.
Damned good read this thread.
I'm not even the OP but I've learnt a lot from it. 🙂
I was thinking the same, Poopscoop 🙂
the techniques involved in climbing - or indeed riding - off-road should not be underestimated.
I'll second this. Have you ever been on a skills course? You may be able to improve your climbing technique with simple things (thumbs on top of the bars).............
The OP talked about a gravel fireroad climb though, while I completely agree that offroad climbing skill is important, most fireroads require very little offroad skill.
offtopic but technical climbing is without doubt my favourite part of mtb, nothing gives me more satisfaction than clearing a steep and technical climb. Currently working on one by my house which is a gully ranging from 2-4ft wide, with lots of loose boulders and rock and root steps that is always wet. Not cleared it yet but getting closer 😀
Hmm. Power/weight ratio is the main figure.
Yes but the power side is huge chunk of that, ideally you increase power and drop weight. Your training should focus on going hard via intervals and the weight side will pretty much take care of itself.
I raced on the road for a good few seasons and my performance improved dramatically over that time, however, I my weight was pretty static, so weight isn't everything by a long way.
No but it depends how fat you are. If you are 14% fat then you haven't got much to lose. If however you are an 18 stone biffer then you'd have to be more powerful than a pro to be able to.climb well.
OP, I used to race with a couple of weighty chaps. Reality is, unless you are fitter than those around you, you are going to struggle. I would suggest you race on circuits which are likely to have a sprint finish, and, get expert quite quick at being in the right position at the bottom of climbs. The front is OK if you can climb and hold the front, but, if you cant, you might want to be on the wheel of a climber who is sat mid pack and follow his wheel, not that drafting will help that much but the mental desire to stay on will you up, you have to go anarobic for a whle! As you crest, you want to be in the top 3rd of the pack minimum and if you wish, let a few past as you recover but not so many as you get dropped, its an art in itself. Its the only way you will stay on those hilly circuits. Build on your hill climbing aiming at 1. shifting up going over the crest and accelerating away, 2. high speed recovery while cresting
Edit. Looking at what you say about your physique, Id focus on sprinting rather than climbing. Have you tried track racing?
My fireroad climbing improved massively last year when a mental switch told me to treat it like an interval, and tap out a constant cadence and est. power via RPE and focus on that not people coming me tinged with angry disapointment.
And yes, carry on over the top, aim for 100m perhaps before you ease off and you will drop those who are rested / tired. Hard start intervals are good for this if your're a sprinter as they force you not to drop your power as you exit the start/climb enter the sub threshold portion aka bak on the flatter single track.
Edit: I found this article useful in explaining the difference in physiology despite the same power output. https://cyclingtips.com/2013/09/climbing-and-time-trialling-how-power-outputs-are-affected/
Edit:
Peforming a power profile test will tell him what kind or rider he is, and he change his training and racing strategy as a result. Its worked well for me as I now don't waste energy on trying too hard at climbs, but then I'm able to travel fast on the flat.Looking at what you say about your physique, Id focus on sprinting rather than climbing. Have you tried track racing?
In my penultimate race last year the ding dong I had with the two riders who eventually lost to me on the final sprint was exactly like this - they'd rell me in on the climbs, I'd distance them on the flat. It was then just a case of positing correctly for the sprint as I didn't know the others capabilities at the time.
In my penultimate race last year the ding dong I had with the two riders who eventually lost to me on the final sprint was exactly like this - they'd rell me in on the climbs, I'd distance them on the flat. It was then just a case of positing correctly for the sprint as I didn't know the others capabilities at the time
This is more or less the exact opposite of most of my races, I reel people in on the climbs, my lack of technical descending confidence measn they drop me, i get back on the climbs, loose time again on the descents. If comes to a sprint I have nothing to give. 😕
I was having severe mental issues with technical riding last year though which I seem to have shaken so I'm looking forward to a few races come spring, even though I'm not going to specifically train for xc this year.
I was having severe mental issues with technical riding
I still am :/ I attributed this in 2016 to virtually zero MTBing in the winter as I pursued Trainerroad interval pretty much 100% of my time. The result - as soon as I approach wet roots I was under confident and therefor slow.
I'm rectifying that with more mid-plan actual riding this year.
Edit: I found this article useful in explaining the difference in physiology despite the same power output. https://cyclingtips.com/2013/09/climbing-and-time-trialling-how-power-outputs-are-affected/
Good article that. Even further off topic, it's the same reason turbo work and road work are very different. Turbo's typically have nowhere near the same levels of KE you have on the road and tend to be a lot better at simulating low energy patterns (like climbing) than high energy ones (like a fast flat road.)
I'm actually good at climbing in all respects, except one - I'm too slow. I relish a good climb, I can pace them well, I can vary my pace to attack, I can find my threshold much better than on the flat. But the lard just holds me back, literally.
Technique can help
Peter Sagan
it's the same reason turbo work and road work are very different.
This is what happened when I stated in the other thread that I've no FTP increase or little medals at all this year to date, but out on the road my [i]sustainable power[/i] is demonstrably higher than last year in the club rides.
I still am :/ I attributed this in 2016 to virtually zero MTBing in the winter as I pursued Trainerroad interval pretty much 100% of my time. The result - as soon as I approach wet roots I was under confident and therefor slow.I'm rectifying that with more mid-plan actual riding this year.
This is a danger I guess. I ride offroad every weekend unless its pissing it down. only indoors doing the IIT midweek if i feel up to it. I rode behind someone I haven't ridden within a while, down a trail I'd never gone down before and not realise I was being [i]seriously [/i]stupid as strava shows I was up around 30mph , going down a hill, at barely 0 degrees (we'd started at -3). if he'd had to stop i'd have gone up the ass of the guy i was following. everytime i have a little off it steadies me for a while.
On the climbing front, the posts about geometry and twitch muscles make me wonder. I'm 41, an ex-skateboarder (of approx 3 years) so my leg twitch muscles were probably decent. (on the rugby front - I played at school and town level. i was hooker, scrum half sometimes flanker and tried playing as fly half but was no where near quick enough). The final climb on The Quantocks by bicknoller post (end of sheppards combe what a lot of people erroneously call lady's edge) I did on my old late 90s marin hardtail, but haven't done on the I had HT since then, or my current short travel full suss (locked out). It's a goal for this year. first attempt Sunday unless i get waylay'd with another adventure..
i'll also add - I did it before I rode much, i've ridden a year solid, plus another 6 months of intermitten, and even more infrequently before that.. How can I ride every week, and not ride up something I could do when I wasn't riding much 3 years ago? (I wasn't any more fit then either)
tap out a constant cadence and est. power via RPE and focus on that not people coming me tinged with angry disapointment.
Maybe for long events but for shorter ones I fundamentally disagree. The aim is to get in front whatever it takes before the next singletrack, recover and put distance on the next fire road.
You got up to them, make the pass, try and make it stick, repeat as required until your superior fitness skill wears them down or there's you.
There are some advantages to strength training
Maybe for long events but for shorter ones I fundamentally disagree. The aim is to get in front whatever it takes before the next singletrack, recover and put distance on the next fire road.
We're all different Adsh - for me doing that on a climb would put me in the red and I'd be all over the place on the next piece of singletrack.
When I say tapping it out I don't mean in Z2, I mean basically not getting distracted by other riders and pushing on at a sustainable - lets say 110% FTP for example - pace over the distance of the climb. I'd be dropping some too. But not being a pure climber, putting myself in the red at my w/kg has a detremental effect to what I can then lay down on the flat afterwards.
We've both ridden at Beastway so picture the climbing up = distinctly average, the lower sections / sprint start = much better. My best result there was when the course had only the single climb up per lap, which just happend to be the same race I concussed myself on the first lap.
Thats about power of course - strategically I agree, get in fron then elbows out. But you have to be capabale and pick your overtaking moments.
But not being a pure climber, putting myself in the red at my w/kg has a detremental effect to what I can then lay down on the flat afterwards.
I'd say that being able to go into the red and recover is the mark of a sprinter, not a climber. Or what they call 'puncheur' I think on the road.
I can be in the red for a while then pick up again quickly. What this means, I dunno. I am still too fat.
I'd say that being able to go into the red and recover is the mark of a sprinter, not a climber. Or what they call 'puncheur' I think on the road.
Quite, the issue I'm describing to Adsh if I'm in the red on the overtake and then recovering because of my lesser climbing power, Sir now behind me who wasn't in the red has ample opportunity to come back at me, because I've comprimised my other strength - the ability to be fast along the next flat bit. What Adsh is correctly saying is that if the flat bit is narrow singletrack who cares, becuase I'm in the way.
If its double track I've set myself up for a fall whilst burning a match. However, if I track the rider just under FTP, I'm able to turn a big gear on that double track and get past without burning that match. Thats my strength.
Its a genericism for sure, we have to pick our battles on the course on which we are riding against the adversary of choice, sometimes I may have no choice but to light that match to gain a place.
Yes.
Agree - has to be into singletrack.