There seems to be very few UST-tubeless clincher tyres out there. Is it possible to use a new standard clincher tyre and set it up as tubeless?
why would you want to? Unless you're getting endless punctures the benefits are not as clear cut on road bikes. Lots of faff for not a lot of benefit. IMO
To answer the question, no, you can't. It will blow off the rim.
You need to use tubeless ready tyres like the Bontrager TLR, Schwalbe The One tubeless or Hutchinson.
No, the sort of pressures road tyres need will blow a non-tubeless road tyre off the rim. The bead just won't be strong enough.
the sort of pressures road tyres need will blow a non-tubeless road tyre off the rim
Everyone says this but has anyone actually seen it happen?
How does a tyre know whether it has a tube in it or not?
The force exerted on a tyre by a tube at a given pressure will be the same as it would be with no tube..... or am I missing something...?
I can understand a tyre not sealing very high pressures perhaps; but why would it blow off the rim?
Would only use tubeless ready on the road bike, they do seem to have a lot tighter beads and more substantial carcasses. Not that a normal tyre would blow off the rim but if there is a loss of air before sealed by the sealant would have a much greater impact on pressures than a more volume mtb tyre therefore could easily roll off the rim. Causing face Tarmac issues..
For me there is a huge difference riding tubeless on the road, close to tubs feel but a lot less hassle.
I personally wouldn't try it.
Tubeless is the way to go, I've just fitted Schwalbe The One, the difference is amazing, rolls so much easier and quicker.
I'm not sure the tyre will blow off the rim. It might not seal though due to the presure. Try it.
The issue I have heard with road tubeless is that due to the high presure the sealant is forced through the puncture hole for a few secs before it seals leaving you and the bike covered in it. Changing a puncture is therefore easier than cleaning you and your bike.
I have tubless ready road rims and run tubes.
I personally wouldn't.
Recently fitted Schwalbe the one tubeless, the difference is amazing - rolls so much easier and quicker. Ridden in quite awful conditions as well, no punctures or air loss. The way to go.
Everyone says this but has anyone actually seen it happen?
How does a tyre know whether it has a tube in it or not?
The force exerted on a tyre by a tube at a given pressure will be the same as it would be with no tube..... or am I missing something...?
No, because after putting 50psi in a 2" MTB tyre (i.e. the same force as a 100psi 1" road tyre) I'm not stupid enough to do it again. And that was with a tubeless ready tyre on a stans rim.
It's to do with the stretchyness of the bead and how tightly it fits under the hook. The Tube provides enough force to keep the bead under the hook even as it stretches. Without the tube the bead can stretch and lift up past the bead hook and BOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM you have a 'badger incident' only much louder.
Errrr. Not sure how 50psi is the same as 100psi . The footprint pressure exerted onto the road might be the same, but the internal pressure of the rubber / spoke bed isnt.
more info needed. linky link for the hard of learning please.
I would NOT try to run a non-tubeless road tyre as a tubeless set up.
I've had a mountain bike tyre blow off a rim in my face whilst trying to get it to seat tubeless at 60psi. It was like a bomb going off. Ringing in the ears, temporary deafness until the real world around comes back to the senses. Sealant everywhere and a tyre with a strange deformed sidewall were the more trivial lasting evidence.
Not a good experience.
I wouldn't try it. Singletrackmind, I wouldn't care about the physics if I were you, just learn fron the mistakes of others so you don't have to 😉
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/my-two-road-tyres-just-exploded-at-100-psi ]that was loud[/url]
[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/stans-alpha-340-michelin-tyres ]blow off[/url]
Errrr. Not sure how 50psi is the same as 100psi .
Because for a 1" section of bead (as pressure is in lb/inch2 and width is 1" for a 25mm tyre and 2" for a MTB tyre)
50 lb/inch2 x 2" width = 100lb per inch circumference force pulling the bead off the rim
100lb/inch2 x 1" width = 100lb per inch circumference force pulling the bead off the rim
And if you don't believe me and think 100psi puts the same force on the bead regardless of the tyre, go try putting 100psi in your MTB tyres and see what happens.
or just get latex inner tubes and use whatever tyres you want and whatever pressures work for you
why would you want to? Unless you're getting endless punctures the benefits are not as clear cut on road bikes. Lots of faff for not a lot of benefit. IMO
Having ridden tubeless on the road for about 8 months now, I couldn't disagree more. Tubeless on road makes as much sense as it does offroad to me!
You CANNOT run non tubeless road tyres in a tubeless setup. The beads of a Tubeless tyre are massively stronger and stiffer than a conventional road clincher tyre. I'm running Tubeless Schwalbe One's on my carbon road bike and they've been totally amazing, I just wish that Schwalbe did a Tubeless Durano too for the winter months!
TINAS I don't think your maths is right. I don't see how how the width of the tyre has anything yo do with the force exerted at its bead by the pressure within it. Also you are not accounting for what angle the sidewall of the tyre makes with the sidewall of the rim.
I got a non UST/TLR tyre to seat fine on my Alphas, was put off riding it by the fear/hype. I've not seen any convincing explanation as to why the bead in a regular tyre is stretchy enough to blow off without a tube (which is by comparison infinitely stretchy!) "holding" it in place / how a UST/TLR bead is so much less stretchy - people (such as mboy) presents it as fact - but no one explains it.
Al, you work in a shop, take a tubeless and non tubeless version of the same tyre off the shelf and inspect them both. The bulk of the extra material on the tubeless tyre is in the bead. Also, the tubeless tyre will be ever so slightly a tighter fit on a rim too, just like MTB tubeless tyres are.
If you've got to be the one that has to find out everything for yourself, then please, go ahead, knock yourself out (quite possibly literally if you're putting 100psi into normal road tyres with no tubes in!), but don't say we didn't warn you...
FWIW have chatted at length with with the Schwalbe Rep about the how's and the whys of tubeless road tyres. I'm prepared to heed their advice and warnings on the matter to be fair!
the sort of pressures road tyres need will blow a non-tubeless road tyre off the rim
Everyone says this but has anyone actually seen it happen?
When I built my new road wheels with Stans Alpha rims I fitted some Michelin Pro3 tyres without realising that I needed tubeless specific tyres too. Certainly made a loud bang when at about 90 psi, a bit of a surprise in the living room 😀
So yes, certainly need expensive tubeless tyres with non-stretchy carbon bead.
Cheers, Rich
Do you really need to run tubeless or are you just following the hype?
C'mon, you ride in lanes covered in grit and crap and water run off from fields, you're hoping tubeless will "make your ride come alive" whilst not actually thinking about where/when and how you ride your bike. It's just a diversion tactic, when really all you need to do over the winter is stick some decent tyres on your roadie, pump them up a bit more than you have been doing and go ride the thing until you puke. Take a spare tube and some patches too for those annoying, and not very often, punctures that add about 15mins to your playtime should you get a puncture.
You should be more concerned about how you ride that roadie of yours than looking for some kinda diversion that puts you off riding it.
Clearly IMO 😉
I have been running Michelin pro 4 tubeless. No issues with blowing off but they were a tight fit (and still are). Main problem is porous sidewalls which don't seem to seal over time like they would on MTB. Also need extra layer of tape on rim (learnt this the hard way).
As above, advantages seem less clear cut than mtb.
If you've got to be the one that has to find out everything for yourself,
Im not going to try it at all- but for a different reason. I just like to understand stuff properly.
The reason I wont be trying it is because the volume of the tyre is too small. It wont take very long for any tiny leaks to deflate the tyre enough for it to drop off the rim; also there is hardly any room for sealant.
...but Im still not buying the whole exploding off the rim thing - at least not as a result of pressure; and I won't until someone can give me a proper explanation (one that isn't to do with floppy beads that hold up perfectly well with an inner tube)
TINAS I don't think your maths is right. I don't see how how the width of the tyre has anything yo do with the force exerted at its bead by the pressure within it. Also you are not accounting for what angle the sidewall of the tyre makes with the sidewall of the rim.
It's a simplified version of the calculation as I'd use for working out the thickness requirements for pressure vessels on a refinery, trust me, it's correct :-p
You can think of it one of two ways.
1) the tyre is a completely square section, at any point down the sides the force pulling the material appart is equal to pressure x area perpendicular to that surface, so a 2" tyre ar 50psi is the same as a 100psi tyre at 1". Note that a force can never have any effec perpendicular to itself and the integral of all the other possible angles you could measure the force or area at is always zero (newtons laws of motion, an object at rest remains at rest etc etc). This is true at all points apart form the corners where the perpendicular area is bigger (the diagonal of thesquare not the flat surface), which is one of the reasons why even if you reinforce the sides to stop them buckling, pressurised structures usualy fail at corners.
2) imagine the tyre is round crossection (like it is), the two sides of the tyres don't move apart from each other so the forces must be ballanced (newton again), so if you cut it in half and made two sides semi circles with some sort of stiff flat suface seperating them then the force on the join would still be equal to pressure x area, only there's no weak corner in a circle.
You can even use the same maths to prove why sausages split along their length (axialy), never arround the circumfance.
Lengthways:
force = pressure x diameter x length
force/length = pressure x diameter
Cirrcumfrance:
force = pressure x cross sectional area
force = pressure x pi x r^2
force = pressure x pi x d^2 / 4
the length of the split is the circumfrance = pi d
force / length = pressure x pi x d^2 / (4 x pi x d)
force / length = pressure x d / 4
So for any sized sausage (or tyre) it will always split lengthways allong the bead as the force pulling it appart is 4x greater.
...but Im still not buying the whole exploding off the rim thing - at least not as a result of pressure; and I won't until someone can give me a proper explanation (one that isn't to do with floppy beads that hold up perfectly well with an inner tube)
If you're so convinced the bead will hold it, and everyone that's tried it is wrong, and the tyre manufacturers are wrong, try it.
He is right of course
that's why larger volume tyres of similar thickness are rated for lower maximum pressures
Im not interested in trying road bike tubeless, happy with MTB tubeless though…..and Im not denying the existence of these “explosions”, I just haven’t heard an adequate explanation. I wonder if it’s kind of a high pressure “burp” which due to the low volume of the tyre causes it go instantly flat?
Observations are useless without explanations – that’s how progress happens.
The Ultegra wheels came with tubeless ready rims so I thought 'why not'? The issue is no one seems to really do the tyres do they?
Schwalbe the One look great -but why no winter version?!!!!!
...but Im still not buying the whole exploding off the rim thing - at least not as a result of pressure; and I won't until someone can give me a proper explanation (one that isn't to do with floppy beads that hold up perfectly well with an inner tube)
In that case I would simply go ahead and try it. What could possibly go wrong. Fwi [url= http://www.justridingalong.com/news/2012/07/tyre-and-rim-compatibility-and-pressures/ ]JRA[/url] suggests that the maximum pressure you should use with any sort of tubeless set-up without a road tubeless-specific tyre is 40psi, but I've run up to an indicated 60psi using cross tyres converted on Crest 29ers, so it's a generalisation rather than FACT.
As far as the explanation goes, isn't it just that the physical pressure of the tube literally jams the bead of the tyre against the hook of the rim and provides a physical barrier to it being dislodged in a way that air pressure on its own doesn't achieve. Or is that too simple?
Schwalbe the One look great -but why no winter version?!!!!!
Because traditionally, over winter, roadies switch to nasty, hard, reinforced tyres with limited grip to avoid punctures from sharp things washed onto the road - think Gatorskins - except that up here, sharp things aren't generally an issue?
I run GP4000s all year on the basis that I'd rather have fast and grippy tyres when the roads are more slippery rather than sloppy, slidey ones, but then I'm a ****less mountain biker riding on the road rather than a 'proper roadie'.
Hooke's law,
the force needed to extend or compress a spring by some distance is proportional to that distance. That is: where is a constant factor characteristic of the spring, its stiffness.
Bigger force = more stretch, put 100psi in a road tyre or 50psi in a MTB tyre and it'll stretch the bead, when the bead gets bigger than the rim diameter all the air escapes. Stick a tube in there and you're provding just enough aditional force to hold the bead under the hook of the rim preventing it stretching.
To overcome this road tubless tyres use a different material (carbon not kevlar or steel)in the bead, and a much more accurate/tighter bead that sits tightly under the lip.
It's not a burp, that's when the bead get's pushed off the bead hook by cornering forces.
The Ultegra wheels came with tubeless ready rims so I thought 'why not'? The issue is no one seems to really do the tyres do they?Schwalbe the One look great -but why no winter version?!!!!!
Hutchinson do some training tyres.
As far as the explanation goes, isn't it just that the physical pressure of the tube literally jams the bead of the tyre against the hook of the rim
The tube is only transmitting the force of the high pressure air. the tube itself has no rigidity at all and will explode at just a few PSI if not restrained by the tyre.
Do these explosions happen under static conditions or whist riding - riding I could understand...?
The tube is only transmitting the force of the high pressure air. the tube itself has no rigidity at all and will explode at just a few PSI if not restrained by the tyre.Do these explosions happen under static conditions or whist riding - riding I could understand...?
If you really think you're right, and everyone else is wrong, go try it. You won't even get to 100psi, and if you do, don't ride it becasue it won't last long.
Pump a conventioanl tyre upto 100psi without a tube.
It will blow off the rim.
Then try re-fitting it, it'll be slacker than a slack thing slacking off.
Stick a tube in there and you're provding just enough aditional force to hold the bead under the hook
where has that force appeared from?
put 100psi in a road tyre or 50psi in a MTB tyre and it'll stretch the bead, when the bead gets bigger than the rim diameter all the air escapes
Why does the same scenario not pop an unconstrained inner tube
lol - why do people keep asking me to try it - I just want to understand it
this is such fun 🙂
You don't think an unconstrained innertube will pop at 100psi?Why does the same scenario not pop an unconstrained inner tube
Because traditionally, over winter, roadies switch to nasty, hard, reinforced tyres with limited grip to avoid punctures from sharp things washed onto the road - think Gatorskins - except that up here, sharp things aren't generally an issue?
But its chicken and egg then- because tubeless would be great for this- the punctures?..
You don't think an unconstrained innertube will pop at 100psi?
Yes I do - that's the point
Roadie tubeless isn't so much about puncture protection, more about the rolling resistance. It'll lose too much pressure before it seals each small hole.
It might save a few punctures, but you'd still need to top the air up every so often.
so why are we discussing them?Yes I do - that's the point
I can think of a few reasons why a tube would be enough to hold the bead together:
* The tube obays hookes law, so over the ~2mm or so join between rim and bead the force required to stretch that to say 4mm or 5mm enough to get it over the bead hook is the same as it would take to stretch the whole tube to 2-2.5 times it's original size, i.e. quite a lot.
* As the tube conforms to the shape of the inside of the bead, at that point it's concave (looking from the outside of the tyre, whereas the rest of the tyre is convex), so is actualy providing more area on the inside than the bare bead would therefore more force pressing the bead into the rim.
* it's sealing small iregularities in the bead, if the bead was not a close fit liek tubelss beads are into the bead socket then the seal may only be a small cotact point arroudn the very ourside of the rim. Air would be free to equilise the pressure on both sides of the bead iself, thus the area that the pressure is acting on to press the bead into the bead socket with a force is small, thereofore the force is small. Make the bead big and soft (with a tube pressing it evenly, or just a bigger bead like tubeless) so it conforms to the rim and the area gets bigger, so the force gets bigger. More force = more friction.
I would think the puncture benefit of road tubeless is that instead of changing a tube you can just give a squirt of CO2 to replace any lost air ?
Definitely going to switch to tubeless after the winter, only waiting because I'd need new wheels and want to hold on until the weather's a bit kinder to new shinies
I would think the puncture benefit of road tubeless is that instead of changing a tube you can just give a squirt of CO2 to replace any lost air ?
CO2 'curdles' the sealent IME, although you could possibly use nitrous oxide instead.
CO2 'curdles' the sealent IME..
bugger, so going tubeless means back to carrying a pump rather than cylinders 🙁
thisisnotafact
I'm afraid we seem to have departed planet Earth for God knows where
Which is a shame since you were speaking a modicum of sense earlier on
Im out
Or just top it up with a pump (assuming it doesn't go down entirely). I still carry CO2 on my MTB, but it does seem to then lead to repeated unsealed punctures untill you clean them out and replace the fluid.bugger, so going tubeless means back to carrying a pump rather than cylinders
I'm afraid we seem to have departed planet Earth for God knows where
Which is a shame since you were speaking a modicum of sense earlier on
Which bit, you don't know why the tube holds it on, I don't know for sure, neither of us have a minature camera to record the inside of the tyre as it explodes so I postulated three ideas with explanations to back it up. Which is really a moot point, the tyre explodes, does it matter why?
But its chicken and egg then- because tubeless would be great for this- the punctures?..
No, because nothing I've tried will successfully seal a cross tyre run tubeless at around 50psi or so, the sealant just streams out like an aerosol, so I reckon it's unlikely to plug a road tyre running even higher pressures.
I've been running Schwalbe Smart Sams on my CX bike tubeless for 6 months now & only had one burp. CO2 got the tyre back up, but I did replace the Stans when I got home.
From what I've read in this thread, it's probably the wire bead that helps hold them onto the Stans Alpha 400s.
Thinking about trying some old wire bead Conti Ultras for the summer.
What have I got to lose?
Cross tyres will probably be OK under about 40-50psi. They're still half the width of (2.5" ) MTB tyres which you'd not bat an eyelid at 20-25psi. My Schwalble CX pro's worked fine for an experiment on DT rims.
My CX'er came with tubeless ready rims and tyres, the tyres are hanging off my wall and the wheels are shod with Griffo's and tubes.
It'll stay like that despite the wrath of CX'ers and MTB'ers for the one fact, I don't trust tubeless. I don't trust it when I'm out riding and it burps then turns into a very long pissed off walk home because it won't seal again (as has happened when I tried it) nor do I trust it just sitting having spent 9hours trying to get the beads to seal then go flat overnight not having even ridden the darn thing.
The cleaning ups a proper PITA too.
We've done the "get GP4's" to death now, you seem intent on faffing rather than riding, enjoy whatever you choose to do.
😆
We did this [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/tell-me-about-roadie-tubeless ]a couple of days ago[/url] and came to the same conclusion in 40 less posts. Must be a quiet work day I guess.
I've got little to add to this thread, other than I weighed up the potential issues with bodging road tubeless, having come a cropper on a bodged MTB set-up (using DT Swiss strips and valves, but with standard XC tyres).
I decided that I'd rather not find out that the set-up was less than optimal whilst pushing the front tyre hard into a downhill corner on tarmac at 20-30 mph.
So, I have been using Schwalbe One tubeless on Stans Alpha rims for the last 6 months without issue. They pop up without any hassle using a track pump, and only need inflated every now and again (certainly no more than the Continental Race tubes I was using previously).
I guess there may be some combo of rim, tyre and tape that may work, but do you fancy being the test pilot on road?
Whyare people having a go at me for simply trying to understand this? 🙄 etc
TINAS I still don't understand! Engineering maths never my strong point. I'll think more. Do you have any science backing up that the tube provides a tiny amount of grip/strength to stop a srdtyre blowing off? I really struggle with that, particularly when you are saying the forces are enough to stretch steel and kevlar beads.
I'm only asking this as I got a non UST tyre to inflate to 90psi fine and it did not blow off, even after time.
I've heard so much BS from bikeco's and seen intelligent people lap it up, so I suspect about anything that doesn't make sense to me.
o, I have been using Schwalbe One tubeless on Stans Alpha rims for the last 6 months without issue. They pop up without any hassle using a track pump, and only need inflated every now and again (certainly no more than the Continental Race tubes I was using previously).
Are you going to use them over winter?
To those that say 'I don't want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere with a deflated tyre/walk home'. On tubeless mountain bike rides...don't you take a spare tube?
using 28mm Hutch Sectors on my commuter. Doing well. Wet grip isn't brilliant but I like the security of tubeless. Having said that, the GP4Seasons I used through last winter never punctured and had better grip, and were cheaper, so it's still a close call overall.
On the best roadie it's tubeless all the way though, for grip, comfort and security.
In fact, only the bmx runs tubes these days.
I'm not actually running the road tyres right now, as I've swapped them over for some Vittoria tubeless CX tyres. Actually, in this case, I tried to get a non-TR Vittoria tyre to seat on the Alpha rims, but they seemed pretty 'baggy', so I re-evaluated and got hold of some TR Vittoria ones. Easy-peasy - rolled on by hand, pop straight up and stay inflated well.
So do I TBH, I can think of reasons why it would but as you say they don't seem like they'd much. But experimentaly plenty of people have tried it and had non UST tyres fail in the same way, and it's rare to hear of the same tyres just poping off the rim. So it's an obovious conclusion that the tube is providing something to the join/seal.Do you have any science backing up that the tube provides a tiny amount of grip/strength to stop a srdtyre blowing off? I really struggle with that
I think this point i made below is the most likely, if the only bit that's sealed is the very edge of the rim and the bead can (abeit stiffly) 'float' arround freely with 100psi air on both sides then the force required to lift the bead over the hook would be relatively small (little more than chaing the tyre normaly). If you make the bead much chunkier you get more area forming the seal, which the pressure in the tyre acts on and produces force (force = pressure x area), and friction is proportional to force, so it'd be more friction stopping them pulling appart, which makes sense when you look at the recent re-appearance of hookless rims.
it's sealing small irregularities in the bead, if the bead was not a close fit like tubeless beads are into the bead socket then the seal may only be a small contact point around the very outside of the rim. Air would be free to equalise the pressure on both sides of the bead itself, thus the area that the pressure is acting on to press the bead into the bead socket with a force is small, therefore the force is small. Make the bead big and soft (with a tube pressing it evenly, or just a bigger bead like tubeless) so it conforms to the rim and the area gets bigger, so the force gets bigger. More force = more friction.
thisisnotaspoon - Member
...experimentaly plenty of people have tried it and had non UST tyres fail in the same way,
On what kind of rim though? Seems to me Stans style ones are going to be safer.
As for your last comment, it seems to me that the a "line of seal" is going to be at the bead itself, not above it, therefore the sidewall of the tyre above the bead is going to be pushing against the inner of part of the rim above the bead, creating a larger area of seal, so I don't agree with you here.
The non UST tyre I used had a fair bit of rubber around the bead which must have helped sealing. I'm tempted to try it again (it went up easier than my Fusions!)