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Take a read of the following blogs from TrainerRoad. Getting a good ftp test takes practice. One thing you're not supposed to do is surge at the end for example.
Yes, I'm aware of that, however the guidance text on the 20 minute effort does encourage you to increase effort fast each 5 minute block if you feel comfortable. Hence my increases at 5 minutes and 15 minutes in. I don't do a sprint in the last 30 seconds type thing.
I'll re-test in 7 weeks when this block is done and keep it consistent.
New to turbo training (with a Tacx vortex from Halfords) and dived straight in with TR. Just finished the first week of Sweet Spot Base LV1. FTP of 279 in the 2x8 min test and hoping to build on that for March/April time.
Yes, I'm aware of that, however the guidance text on the 20 minute effort does encourage you to increase effort fast each 5 minute block if you feel comfortable.
It's been a while since I've done one 😳 but I seem to recall they're more talking about slight ups / downs as opposed to big changes. If at about 10 minutes in I'm not really sure I'm going to make it but at 15 I think I'll just be able to cling on then I've got the pacing about right.
In 7 weeks you'll have a much better feel of what power is sustainable and for how long so you should be able to start a bit harder and cling on until the bitter end 😀
Some of those FTP numbers above seem to be quite strong...I suppose we don't have the w/kg to put in context. Significantly over 300 is impressive...
Its 2 for bensales, 3.6 for me.
300W alone isn't particularly impressive, it can only be impressive in the context of W/kg.
A 60kg rider with a 300W ftp is very impressive, a 100kg rider is quite unimpressive.
I did change trainers between the test and Hakue/Antelope. But the Tacx Vortex I did the test on was calibrated, and the new Tacx Neo is calibration free.
There's the reason.
Tacx Vortex (I have one) is only going to be 'roughly' calibrated. Even two examples of the same direct force power meter are likely to read differently by a percent or two. The Vortex effectively uses virtual power (calculated internally). It is also rather susceptible to when you do the calibration. If you do a spindown when cold then it will be quite a way off once warmed up. I have done some tests on mine, and regardless of calibration protocol, it actually drifts during an interval as it warms up further. This will be quite pronounced during a 20 minute FTP test. For a given actual power output, the displayed wattage will drift upwards as you spend longer at that power.
Also, even if you do the spindown once it's warmed up *at* a given power output, it is likely to be a good few percent out relative to an accurate measure. Your Neo is likely to be much more accurate.
The Vortex still isn't bad by any stretch, but don't expect the power data to be directly comparable to other units.
You should definitely stick to one method of measuring power for test and train if possible. And if you're going to be using the Vortex then pay close attention to temperature (ambient and resistance unit) for both calibration and operation.
fifeandy - Member
300W alone isn't particularly impressive, it can only be impressive in the context of W/kg.
A 60kg rider with a 300W ftp is very impressive, a 100kg rider is quite unimpressive.
Gee thanks 🙂
Yeah, I'm about 1.5 stone heavier than I should be.
bensales - Member
I did change trainers between the test and Hakue/Antelope. But the Tacx Vortex I did the test on was calibrated, and the new Tacx Neo is calibration free.
gray - Member
There's the reason.Tacx Vortex (I have one) is only going to be 'roughly' calibrated. Even two examples of the same direct force power meter are likely to read differently by a percent or two. The Vortex effectively uses virtual power (calculated internally). It is also rather susceptible to when you do the calibration. If you do a spindown when cold then it will be quite a way off once warmed up.
Yes, it's only dawned on me now I've thought it through properly. Another test on the Neo in 6 weeks will give me a much better picture. For the moment, I'll adjust the ftp manually and check the workout descriptions to ensure I'm at the right RPE.
The Vortex effectively uses virtual power (calculated internally). It is also rather susceptible to when you do the calibration. If you do a spindown when cold then it will be quite a way off once warmed up.
This. Some turbos, especially mag ones, are very susceptible to this warm up effect. When I had my old mag turbo I could be in one or two gears higher for a given (direct force PM measured) power at the end of the workout to what I was in at the start. If I was deriving power from wheel speed when it'd have drifted considerably. The first 20 mins or so are perticularly bad, but it does continue to drift for hours.
Neo should be much better than the Vortex. It also eliminates all the variability around the tyre and drum interface.
Some turbos, especially mag ones, are very susceptible to this warm up effect. When I had my old mag turbo I could be in one or two gears higher
Same here - Elite Fluid for me and you can actually feel the viscosity changing between the first 3-6 miniutes depending on the temperature / warm up style.
I don't believe the TR figures at all with virtual power, it has me at 5.7 FTP/kg which is quite frankly ludicrous given my race history
5.7 FTP/kg
😆
Virtual power can be a bit silly. It wouldn't be so bad if it was at least consistent, but it isn't.
I cant really understand why its so wrong when it seems to work for most people.. any idea? Not that it actually matters given its a training number and all the plans are just percentages of that number
It's just the map for your turbo. I think some turbos have a lot more variation than others between units of the same make and model. It'd be nice for those that use virtual power if you could create your own map.
Some turbos, especially mag ones, are very susceptible to this warm up effect.
Yep, virtual power on a cyclops fluid 2 would be comical - i've had 3 different fluid units (first 2 replaced under warranty after about 18 months a piece for fluid leaks). All 3 of them have had different resistance curves, and all 3 have taken a different amount of time to warm up, ranging from a steep warm up 'step' at 20mins to a continual ramp for over an hour.
So what you're saying is I need to buy a real power meter 😉
You don't have a real power meter 😯
Would love one but can't see me buying one shortly, could buy a cx pit bike for the price of a reliable one! Its virtual power inside and HR or just beasting it outside!
Virtual power can be a bit silly. It wouldn't be so bad if it was at least consistent, but it isn't.
I find virtual power to be very consistent on my Kurt Road Machine as long as you keep the spin down constant from session to session. I use their specified roll down time after a warmup (13s from 32km/h or so) and the Kurt is meant to be pretty consistent. I used to have an imagic but it felt horrible compared to the Kurt and definitely over-estimated power.
The Kurt is good enough to train by, anyway. I've no idea if it is accurate compared to real power (my alleged 'FTP' is 296 at 71kg, which seems about ball park - I can contribute to fast chain gangs with reasonable club riders (cat 3 & 2) but am definitely not one of the strong guys; I've been on the winning team at oktoberfest and podiumed sleepless etc., so I'm alright but no superstar).
I'd love a power meter but it seems an extravagance at my level unless I see a stages going cheap or something. I'm going to start racing again next year so perhaps that will convince me to get one! It just seems a faff when I've got four bikes and ride them all (winter/summer road bikes; hardtail and trail bike!). I'm sure as hell not getting four pms!
if I know I'm going on what is likely to be a fast ride I quite often don't use a computer on the bars - if I'm not going fast enough, I'm not going fast enough and that's the end of it!
Kurt are meant to be about the best for consistency, really well designed. Meant to be even better if you get the inride module and let it work out power. If I was getting that sort of turbo, I'd get a Kurt.
You don't want a Power Meter. In my experience they just throw out a set of thoroughly disappointing numbers.
Question: I'm starting short power build LV. My weekend outdoor rides would mean ill never get the Saturday over-unders in.
Should in swap one of the Tues/Thurs intervals for Saturdays OU for more benefit?
How big / intense are your weekend outdoor rides? Given that you're doing low volume, would it be feasible to squeeze in all of the TR plan into Mon-Fri and still get enough recovery?
(Just wondering out loud - I'm not qualified to advise on this stuff.)
Since its a build phase rather than base, include OU intervals in the last hour of your weekend road ride.
You'll get most of the endurance benefits from riding easy for the first 2-3hrs and not miss out on the good stuff either.
I'm of the opinion that TR plans are designed as a whole and aren't intended to include 'normal' riding. Personally I'd follow the plan only. Your outdoor ride might mean that you're not recovered enough to do the following TR planned session, irrespective of missing a planned session.
If you want to do you own thing with a club run, then I'd build my own plan around that. From what you've said about your long rides they're pretty serious business in terms of distance and will be having a large effect on your recovery even if they're not intense. The low volume plans are naturally of a higher intensity to make up for the lack of volume. Start throwing in your own low intensity, high volume stuff, and you'll put the plan out.
I get that but i want to be outside at the weekend if possible and not stuck on the turbo for the next 6 months. O/U's are a bit part of XC/TT style training and I'm thoughtful that 1 x times short intervals effort on Thursday followed by 1 x O/U's on Thursday rather than another set of short intervals is best.
My weekend ride won't always be "base". Sometimes it'll be a C race, sometimes MTB alone which means I can push hills and segments, sometimes a club ride within which ill be challenged. So maybe I'm better thinking I can swap the intervals depending on what the weekend replicates.
I'm of the opinion that TR plans are designed as a whole and aren't intended to include 'normal' riding. Personally I'd follow the plan only.
I agree, but how dull would it be not to ride normally. The sat and sunday rides can normally be easily replicated outside (Sat. less so i guess)
ferrals - Member
I agree, but how dull would it be not to ride normally. The sat and sunday rides can normally be easily replicated outside (Sat. less so i guess)
Agreed, but I guess it depends on your focus. In a similar vein to the other thread that's running about only riding for enjoyment. I'm only riding for Ironman training, so I will be following the sessions to the plan, and only training on the trainer. Because the target I have requires that specific work. Outdoor rides, whilst nice, are too variable when I have a single goal of one 112 mile time trial. I get much better quality work in 3 hours on the trainer, than 5 hours outdoors. Particularly when I need to go an run for a couple of hours after it!
Agreed, turbo time is way more efficient, I also struggle to replicate the very hard intervals outside. I can see for your goals its all you need. Luckily for me I have a few flat cyclepath routes where i can sit at 155-160bpm ad infinitum to replicate the sunday session, which is still dull but less dull than sitting for 3hrs on the turbo!!
By end of next week, when clocks change I imagine I'll be 100% turbo outside of races 🙁
Agreed, but I guess it depends on your focus. In a similar vein to the other thread that's running about only riding for enjoyment. I'm only riding for Ironman training, so I will be following the sessions to the plan, and only training on the trainer. Because the target I have requires that specific work. Outdoor rides, whilst nice, are too variable when I have a single goal of one 112 mile time trial. I get much better quality work in 3 hours on the trainer, than 5 hours outdoors. Particularly when I need to go an run for a couple of hours after it!
Whilst I agree about following plans in general, I really disagree with training full time on the indoor trainer. You end up really good at riding an indoor trainer and not very good at riding a bike. Whenever possible, sessions should be replicated as closely as possible outdoors.
When riding indoor you don't:
place anywhere near as much strain on supporting/stabilisation muscles.
learn to stay smooth over rough road.
learn not to fight the wind.
and as good as modern trainers are, you don't replicate hills the same.
Especially for MTB ^^ but for any technical expertise needed, there's no practise.
In light of the conversation I may change my 132k base for our novice level club ride on Saturday. I'll ride 15k there over heavily rolling terrain which I can smash, the ride itself will be at my z2 for abojut 50k, then I get the 15k back home which can be a smash again.
So I'll get my O/U's and a couple of hours of base together, plus my weekend ride, plus a chance to give back to cycling beginners. Win Win!
place anywhere near as much strain on supporting/stabilisation muscles.
Had issues with this last spring after a lot of turbo work.
Worth doing core exercizes and glute strethening excerzies. Plus lots of flexibility work
I learnt this much to my cost last year. I was fit but good at riding on a trainer , not doing enduro races.
fifeandy - MemberWhen riding indoor you don't:
place anywhere near as much strain on supporting/stabilisation muscles.
learn to stay smooth over rough road.
learn not to fight the wind.
and as good as modern trainers are, you don't replicate hills the same.
Valid points, but I do have 35 years of bike riding experience to help me with those bits 🙂
And for the supporting/stabilisation muscles, there are several TR workouts that require single leg drills, single arm, and no-arm drills, with lots on them done in aero position.
I think I'm lucky the trainer riding is actually about as close as you can get to my current target, that of a long distance TT. I had less success with using it for mtb racing for the reasons pointed out.
Just out of interest, what time are you aiming for on the bike leg, and how many hours a week of turbo'ing does that equate to?
Very interested in doing an Ironman myself (maybe 2018), but need to A) remember how to run - not done since my teens, and B) learn how to pace myself swimming to last more than 3 mins 😛
Are you new to power training or have you been doing it a while ? Are you using an ERG mode trainer ?
Interested as I have been training with power for a couple of years now and I did most of my Ironman training on the Kickr last year. Like you I felt it was the best bang for my buck.
However I think I am going to mix it up a bit more this year. I want more practice at holding my power targets over real changing terrain where you need to change gear to maintain cadence etc etc.
I got really good at peddling at 100rpm and letting the trainer set the power for me.
I did do a few TT's etc to help with pacing and put some race power intervals into longer rides but still think I could do better with more practice.
fifeandy - Member
Just out of interest, what time are you aiming for on the bike leg, and how many hours a week of turbo'ing does that equate to?
Aiming for 6 hours on the bike. Plan goes from a low of roughly 3 hours on the bike to a peak of just over 7. I've strung together TrainerRoad's Half Distance Base, Full Distance Base, Full Distance Build, and then 2x Full Distance Speciality blocks to give a 40 week programme. All on Low Volume which goes from 7.5 hours per week up to a peak of just over 16. Had to do some minor tweaks to cater for working away from home Tues-Thurs each week.
Plan is here if you're interested... [url= https://www.dropbox.com/s/zzi25z7djfllf7h/Ironman%202017%20Plan.pdf?dl=0 ]https://www.dropbox.com/s/zzi25z7djfllf7h/Ironman%202017%20Plan.pdf?dl=0[/url]
Note, the 'XCs' in there are running club cross-country league races that can't be missed!
Very interested in doing an Ironman myself (maybe 2018), but need to A) remember how to run - not done since my teens, and B) learn how to pace myself swimming to last more than 3 mins
First Iron distance for me, although I've run several marathons, loads of long distance bike over the years, and can comfortably swim the required distance, albeit not stunningly quickly. Very much complete, rather than compete.
bazzer - Member
@bensalesAre you new to power training or have you been doing it a while ? Are you using an ERG mode trainer ?
Started power training at the beginning of this year to get me in shape for some mtb xc races. Until then I'd never actually done any focussed bike training. Just rode my bikes! But I had done very focussed running training, so could carry across all the concepts of easy/hard/threshold/intervals etc...
Always used Erg trainers, initially a Tacx Vortex and now a Tacx Neo.
and as good as modern trainers are, you don't replicate hills the same.
They actually do a better job of replicating hills than flat roads!
Totally agree about too much turbo being detrimental to outdoor riding. It's easy to fall into the turbo trap during winter, done it a couple of times now. I try and limit turbo to times I really can't do the session outdoors. Intervals are easy enough with a PM on the road bike and picking suitably interruption free bits of road. Turbo is just nowhere near as dynamic as riding on the road and you lose the ability to deal with that through too much turbo.
This bloody thing frustrates me. After suffering badly on the 20 min test on Tuesday, I've sailed through Grassy Ridge like a knife through butter.
So much so, I ramped up the the last set of nine internals to 105%, and the very last 30 seconds I just pushed on to get that nice stomach turning feeling completing a 400w 30 second interval.
And now I feel fresh as a daisy.
😈
You've probably said, but what equipment are you using Kryton? Is it possible that you're getting inconsistent readings? Or is it biological variation? (Tired or poorly on Tuesday? Different time of day or hunger status?)
All the equipment is the same. The only difference is that its evening today vs lunchtime tuesday. According to np, tss and IF its an easier workout than rhe 20 min of course, but I didnt expect it to be that easy.
I was just wondering if it might be susceptible to drifts in temperature or calibration.
Which FTP test did you do Kryton? 2x8 or 1x20?
I'm wondering if Grassy ridge plays to your strengths (short power bursts) and the 20 minute FTP doesn't (longer sustained power)
I often have the opposite problem where over/unders or sustained time just above ftp are fine but short bursts at higher values are really tough comparatively.