TrainerRoad - STW approved sessions

I think it does. I discovered 2 years ago i have a sprint, and am good up 50/100m rises. Im poor at lengthy climbs though.

However i feel 1x20 easier to complete as in prior years ive had issues with vo2max.

Have you built up a power profile over various durations Kryton?

Part of what you describe is a problem estimating a value for 60 minute power from an effort of shorter duration. Assumes everyone fits a certain curve. And then there's the consequence of then working out interval efforts from that one value. For example, it would likely make more sense for your 5 min efforts to be done at a percentage of your 5 min max, not as a percentage of your FTP.

I've discovered life outside of training and so have binned long base rides etc and have just done a Z5 intervals session, a sweetspot session, an hours Zone 3 and the odd XC race. Basically I'm doing a transition from rest to full on from November onwards. This year will be more high intensity and less base to see if I can get some improvements from a different regime

Moving my Z5 to an XC course (Aston) definitely helped my XC races.

The transition phase workouts from Tomorrows Plan have fewer and less intervals than I was doing eg Sweetspot 4x10minutes when I was doing 3x20minutes and z5 3x5minutes when I was doing 6x5minutes (well actually 4 at Z5 and 2 at Z4 as unable to maintain Z5 power)

I'm loathe to regress but maybe I should do the shorter/lesser intervals to ensure I go into November with energy?

Plan is here if you're interested...

Cheers, that looks really good, although no idea how i'd fit in AM workouts - usually a zombie <9:30am

It's only the swims I do at stupid o'clock as that's when the pool is quiet. Apart from my Tuesday bike which I have to do a 5am before travelling for work 🙁

Have you built up a power profile over various durations Kryton?

Part of what you describe is a problem estimating a value for 60 minute power from an effort of shorter duration. Assumes everyone fits a certain curve. And then there's the consequence of then working out interval efforts from that one value. For example, it would likely make more sense for your 5 min efforts to be done at a percentage of your 5 min max, not as a percentage of your FTP.

Useful thanks.

I have - I did the Hunter Allen Profile test also which is on TR. The model I fitted was a "Sprinter" which surprised me somewhat. But then last season I tested that and as ADSH can testify, I found myself speinting off the start in front at Vets R3, but needing more fitness/sustainable power to back it up as I quickly lost places after that. I can still outsprint people after 1:20 of racing, and often hold back on a place at the end to do so.

As my above posts, my 30sec power is good, it tails off after that. Because of this I did the Olympic XC plan last year to build longer sustainable power - thats why I started TT's as well, those are a interesting way for me to do something to focus on sustainable power increase.

What I need is higher sustainable power for climbs and race duration, and to understand how I can stay further up the field. I also think I'm just crap at the Tests - although I'll see over the next couple of workouts - I think my FTP is probably about 5% under.

However, the reason I created the graph I posted was to spot trends. The trend I found is that I lose power at this time of the year, regain and exceed it by March during winter training, and repeat. My estimated FTP would have me the "same" as I found myself in March 2016, which is a good sign for March 2017 if the trend continues.

ADSH can testify, I found myself speinting off the start in front at Vets R3

I can't I was too busy dying (12hr training regime meets XC for first time).

I find I can't be arsed about numbers atm. I'm reverting to results

Well, I'm getting bored of numbers too. All this mental machination and basically all I know is I have a good sprint, yet low sustainable power and a lot of cardio endurance for 24hrs.

Its the bits in the middle I'm lacking.

Ouch, just done Lincoln, struggled to walk upstairs afterwards!

That was entertaining. Brick workout using Pioneer. Do the TR workout but stop before the cool down, into running shoes, and out the door for a tempo 2 miles. Not sure I managed to run in a straight line for the first half mile.

Good to see your well organised Ben 🙂

Are you not planning on any long (6hr) real rides at all ? Are you going to do it all on the Turbo ?

I had a quick look, so might have missed it.

The vast majority will be on the turbo. I think the longest is four hours. That's a lot of Netflix 🙂

I will do some outdoor in the Spring and I also have a half distance (Outlaw Half) in the buildup. I don't intend doing the full 112 miles in training as I don't feel it's necessary. Probably do 80 odd as an outdoor.

So here's a first for me, I fell out of my Turbo last night and went whizzing across my mancave and fell into a pile of stepladders 🙂

I've no idea whats going on with me but I'm beasting TR at 105% with a grin on my face yet STILL exceeding power on the intervals. So much so I was pushing 580w on a 30sec race start which should have been at 130% FTP, coming down to just above FTP for 3 mins. It was during the 580 that I moved the bike too much and it fell out of the turbo, I was of course giving it some beans in a big gear.

My FTP obviously needs to go up, but I have Thimble tomorrow (14x50secs at 127% FTP) and I'm being cautious about that before I do

Don't take this as a criticism, as its not, its probably a lack of knowledge on my part

but I have Thimble tomorrow (14x50secs at 127% FTP)

This bit here is why i'm always reluctant to follow generic training plans without having a knowledgeable coach to talk over and explain things.

Now, if I remember rightly, Kryton is aiming for a first peak around March, that's still >4 months away. From the digging i've done, Thimble isn't performed at a low cadence, so isn't a force building session which I would understand >4 months out. It appears to be a VO2Max/Lactate tolerance session.

So, can anyone explain for me why TR have added this type of session in the plan so far out from the target peak date?

So, can anyone explain for me why TR have added this type of session in the plan so far out from the target peak date?

It could be me. I'm doing Base, Build 1 <Christmas/Rest week> Build 2, Speciality

After Build 1 is the Brass Monkeys series as C races, so a "soft" peak before a Jan C race (BOTB) Feb B race then my proper A race in March. I then "B" race and maintain until the next A race in July.

The Tuesday sessions seems to be low force, Thursdays VO2max, Sat/Sun seem to be O/U's & muscular endurance.

I've no idea whats going on with me but I'm beasting TR at 105% with a grin on my face yet STILL exceeding power on the intervals.

Worth noting here that your RPE can depend a lot on your current form, which goes up and down as you train and rest. So sometimes you might find a session easy, and other times you might struggle to finish. Always tempting to whack up the percentage up if you're feeling strong but you are making the workout harder and increasing the TSS which might have a knock on effect on future form.

Again something that's quite difficult to quantify if you are just following a plan and not doing any analysis on the data.

I am doing both - currently increase percentage to 105% on the second half only, watching TSS and as a result at least last weeks weekend and perhaps this weeks will bea easier than originally planned.

First FTP test for the turbo season early yesterday morning. Surprisingly only 5% down on the seasons peak and feel I could have gone slightly harder. That and plus 4kg. Plan is to get to spring having built back up again and lose the excess. Tough challenge given Xmas is in the way

That and plus 4kg.

About the same here 🙂 Always seems to happen when I back off the intensity for winter.

A few turbo sessions recently, mostly custom z2/z3 and variations on Kennedy Peak, trying to do as much as I can in TT position. Still getting out as much as I can for long steady rides before winter kicks in.

Back on the TR tonight - 8 min test after a lamb dopiaza and peshwari naan. Good God, never ever do that again.

Still, only a few percent down so good to get that under the belt. Been fannying around with TR over the past month, just not getting going with it plus a couple of refusals on some VO2 max stuff. So hope to get into the swing of it again.

This is getting ridiculous. I did The Priest last night. Back up to my pre-test and 2016 best FTP and although yet again there was some effort & a little pain, I had loads left. Instead of 140% 30sec hard race starts, i ended up doing them at 700+w, with my last 95% training interval at ever increasing power to the finish.

No achy legs this morning. Yet I can't finish an 8min test, Wtf. It'll be interesting to see how Sundays race goes.

I don't do much Trainerroading now I'm on Zwift but still read through this thread, this isn't supposed to sound argumentative but your posts on this topic tend to fit into two distinct categories:

Cat 1 - Pushing harder than the plan suggests when on easy/rest days

Cat 2 - Wondering why you can't push as hard as you should be able to. Especially when, the day before, you felt so strong on a rest day you decided to beast yourself instead.

I'm sure you're more than aware of your training loads etc etc but it does sometimes sound like you're not doing yourself any favours! 😉

I'd love a power meter but it seems an extravagance at my level unless I see a stages going cheap or something. I'm going to start racing again next year so perhaps that will convince me to get one! It just seems a faff when I've got four bikes and ride them all (winter/summer road bikes; hardtail and trail bike!). I'm sure as hell not getting four pms!

haha, so after writing this I went and bought a powertap wheelset on ebay 😳 It seems like my Kurt was under-reading by about a consistent 20-25 watts so I'm looking forward to retesting next week (just in the sweet spot base 1 recovery week at the moment).

The problem is now I'm going to have to use the powertap equipped bike (my winter bike) on the turbo as well as outside, and I can't be bothered with changing tyres all the time. So, I better stockpile cheap hardwearing tyres that don't ride like crap. I normally run GP4000s or four seasons, but I'm not killing them on the turbo. I've got a set of ultrasports that would do the job but they do feel really slow. Any recommendations for a good, hardwearing, fast, grippy, cheap 25c tyre? 😆

Ianpv - Michilin Lithion 2's I've had one on the back of my bike inside and outside - for two years now.

IvanDobski - Member

I don't do much Trainerroading now I'm on Zwift but still read through this thread, this isn't supposed to sound argumentative but your posts on this topic tend to fit into two distinct categories:

Cat 1 - Pushing harder than the plan suggests when on easy/rest days

Using last night as an example, pushing race start and then maintaining a high sub threshold effort for three minutes x 5 is supposed to be hard. Its not feeling hard, which is the issue so yes I'm making it harder. I don't see an issue with that.

Cat 2 - Wondering why you can't push as hard as you should be able to. Especially when, the day before, you felt so strong on a rest day you decided to beast yourself instead.

I don't do that now, I learned from the previous advice. Vis a Vis today I'm lounging around doing sod all. Actually perhaps this is wy the other intervals are going better.

i ended up doing them at 700+w

Because mine have 3 minutes rest periods in between? Probably much use at the last 20k of a TDF stage...

Confirmation I'm doing the right thing please folks to appease the training anxiety (or alternatively give me a better idea!):

Situation:

Week before last hard training week (7hrs)- almost achieved but missed Sunday's Session due to travelling abroad for work (I did an extra half hour easy on the sat eve to cater for this as much as i could).

Last week - should have been a hard training week as well but was abroad with work until late night Weds and the promised hotel gym was diabolical with broken exercise bike. Thursday completed session but was ill by thurs eve, basialy slept Fri, sat,sun. (only managed 2hrs on bike)

This week, should be an easy week. Was away again with work Mon and tues, feeling just about recovered from illness.I've gone slightly rogue in that got back from work late on tues so just did 1/2hr easy spinning last night and then did Dorr (1/2hr with three sprints) this morning.

I assume should be aiming to stick to plan and have an easy week even though lost a whole hard week of training?

I'm planning on an hour v02max taper workout Thursday and then Racing Sunday so just an hour openers on Sat.

I'm worried about having lost a lot of fitness with being ill, not exercising and eating rubbish while away so feel like I should be doing more but guess I'm better off keeping rested for Sunday as won't be able to boost fitness before then anyway. Am also consicuos that I'm still not 100% well

Thoughts?

guess I'm better off keeping rested for Sunday as won't be able to boost fitness before then anyway

You already know the answer.
CTL will probably look like its in freefall, but in reality, if you've had a solid season training behind you, you aren't suddenly going to become unfit in 2 weeks.

Using last night as an example, pushing race start and then maintaining a high sub threshold effort for three minutes x 5 is supposed to be hard. Its not feeling hard, which is the issue so yes I'm making it harder. I don't see an issue with that.

Kryton, looking at Priest, it's 0.82 IF and 68 TSS for 60 mins. That shouldn't feel too hard, and there's a lot of recovery in there. Looks like it's trying to work on something quite specific so probably shouldn't be about smashing as hard as possible.

I'm better off keeping rested for Sunday as won't be able to boost fitness before then anyway.

Ferrals, yes, you might as well take the time to recover properly.

Cheers Fifeandy, mrBlobby, yeah what I knew already, have to admit its the fitness and freshness charts that get me questioning it 👿

Good to get the confrimation so I don't go off-track and beast myself just for the the good of those stupid fitness lines

Hmm ok. Yes it is tryring replicate race starts and keeping pressure on up sudden perhaps unexpected climbs / making and sustaining a gap. All of which works well for me for XC racing.

The idea is to build power / sustainable power though, so as long at it doesnt ruin my next workout or event, why wouldnt i smash my legs only for them to re-build stronger, at the same time improving my cardio endurance?

I guess im nervous that by not feeling wasted at the end my ftp is too low and my training will be comprimised.

thinking about firing up my trainerroad sub again, but wondering if Zwift is worth it as an alternative?

I guess im nervous that by not feeling wasted at the end my ftp is too low and my training will be comprimised.

If it's a 60 min session with an IF of 1.0 (or well into the 0.9's, e.g. [url= https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/3169-table ]Table[/url]) then you will feel wasted as that should be close to your max 🙂 60 mins at an IF of 0.85 should be quite hard but far from max.

Low volume plans are a tricky proposition as you have little training time and lots of recovery time so you do need to bump up the intensity. Everyone has different capacity for how much load they can handle (TSS per week or month) and one plan doesn't fit all. If you are easily coping with the workload on a week by week basis then maybe bump the workouts up a bit or find equivalents that have a bit more duration, or maybe chuck an extra 30 mins of z2 at the end of each one. (Or add an extra ride, or change over to mid/high volume.)

thinking about firing up my trainerroad sub again, but wondering if Zwift is worth it as an alternative?

TBH most people I know are now Zwifting. Especially during winter when it tends to be longer steadier sessions. I still prefer to watch some telly and do trainer road though. If I had a smart turbo though I would probably be Zwifting.

Ah yes, I forgot to factor in IF...

Well November is here and so I'm looking at restarting the turbo but can't face an FTP test as my first time back in 4 months so I'll probably assume same as this time last year to begin with.

I'm not sure of the attraction of zwift so I'll probably stick to TrainerRoad.

Sweamrs is also interested this year so we're looking at running the TR companion on occasion. "Date night" while sweajnr sleeps upstairs 😀

I'm really enjoying sweet spot base at the moment. Nice challenge but not vomit enducing , can watch Only fools and horses reruns on Dave and then go to bed a few hours later knowing I've done a nice bit of training. All good things .

First time back on the turbo last night. My coach has started incorporating some TrainerRoad sessions into my weekley training which started off with Leavitt +1.

While not strictly a tough session (7 x 10min @ 75%-85% FTP with no rest periods), it certainly caused a large amounnt of moisture around my person 😆

Moist. Fantastic word

I've not actually ridden my bike for 10days. After 15hrs of turbo I just could not face another hour plus this morning on the turbo so I got on my SS and rousted it round some very muddy trails.

Turns out to have been a great workout both for core (high cadence) and the legs as well as restoring my sanity.

Slowly building back up, even Dans on Weds eve was a struggle. Managed scott peak last night and it hurt. Felt ok afterwards though. Can't wait to ride a bike outside tomorrow. Super frothing. Seems like the enforced rest may have been a blessing in disguise as was mentally not all there before.

Question re. fitness: say you have two weeks off completely and assoicated fitness loss (however much that is) - how long does it take to ge back to that fitness assuming a moderate training regime? similar amount of time?

Can't wait to ride a bike outside tomorrow. Super frothing.

Sounds like that'll more than make up for any loss of fitness 🙂

how long does it take to ge back to that fitness assuming a moderate training regime?

I had best part of a month off sick in the summer, didn't take much more than a couple of weeks to feel like I was back on a decent level. Probably depends on the individual and where you are with your training and how you measure fitness.

A couple of hours outside for me last night, needed a break from the turbo. A fairly bright super moon but cold and a bit damp. Was going well but had to stop for a few minutes to sort out a sheared mudguard bolt. Got cold and never felt like I got properly going again after that. Don't get that on the turbo.

Sounds like that'll more than make up for any loss of fitness

Hopefully! Potentially snowy race on Sunday so just a quick blast tomorrow and try to keep that froth bubbling over till the start line 😆

Ferrals, how did it go?

Ferrals, how did it go?

From a racing point of view - diabolical. For so many [s]reasons[/s] excuses: It was snowy and temps around zero; my feet were numb before i started race; I couldn't brake because becasuse not only did my hands go numb but my pads wore out from the gritty slush (plenty of other people's did too); I didn't like the course, it was out along a very pot-holed fire road and back along a rocky blue graded mtb singletrack, feeling that cold I didnt feel safe to ride the singletrack at speed.

But.. my fitness wasnt atrocious and if it had been warmer and I had been more up for it I think I'd have felt fitter. Unlike a couple of weeks ago I didnt actually feel ill racing and I feel fine now so I hope finally the virus I've had for a month has gone.

The chimneys plus three this evening, pushed it on the initial hard starts so probably more like one of hte priest workouts. Think these are my favourite type of workouts, bit of variety but not too complex so can still watch tv.