[Closed] Toe curling 650b marketing guff.

BadlyWiredDog - Member
You're kidding, it's comedy gold. Just a brilliant cross section of folk living in a weird industry bubble

Yes.

...and I claim my £27.50

Lookm at the Giant blokes body languague - he's reading from a memorised script.

Why would the lizards want us to escape the gravity field of the sun?

1. The sun is dying slowly, in just a few million years it will be too cold. Hence the plan to turn the earth into a giant space ship - that's not the corporate Giant btw, they are all complicit. I suspect it will be unbranded or at the most have a very discrete head badge of some sort, probably plonked on top of Mt Everest.

2. Because they can.

You might as well ask why the lizards would want us all to ride bigger wheels. But I think I've fully answered that point already. 🙄

JCL - Member
I've said it on here before but if you really look into the reason why [s]650b[/s]29er came along it was only ever a pure marketing decision from companies

Dunno why they just can't say that having to make and market 26, 650b and 29er bikes is an expensive pain in the bum so we've just picked the middle one as a compromise (probably considered to be the most marketable as we can tell people we've got the "science and math" to prove they are better than 26 and as good as 29) and just got on with it.

Thanks BWD, I'll stop pondering and can go to work now 🙂

the minute the bikeradar logo came on the screen at 00:01 seconds it went off that wa it enought

you lot are only upset your not all virgins and cant believe this stuff

That lot will be first up against the wall come the (28.3) revolution!

Odd how so many different justifications, arguments, research programmes etc all came to fruition at exactly the same time - last year 650B was as rare as a rare thing, now everyone has simultaneously decided that it's the future.

As for whoever said '26 is fading fast, if not already gone' - well, spend a day doing a wheel size survey by the side of a busy trail then come back and tell me that.

Meh.

I remember buying a blur lt back in 2009 when.all the hype then was about long travel all mountain ( whatever all mountain means) bikes. Every few years there is a different hype to get us to spend our cash, which is expected really. I've still got the blur as well, good bike.

The industry has disappeared right up it's own fundament.

Once upon a time it was populated by people who really liked to ride bikes and that to a large extent shone through to the consumer. Now we're being spoon fed some dire marketing BS to justify ever more pointless forced upgrades - a case in point being Giant's recent dabbling with a brand new steerer tube diameter. I've made a point of not buying anything from Giant and see no reason to discontinue that.

The obvious point is that the 29" revolution hasn't taken the marketplace by storm, the 26" has refused to die and the resulting R&D nightmare of having to design two different versions of the same product line with differing geometries means that some middle ground has to be found.

I'm truly fine with this idea, but I'm not fine with the marketing BS. As a consumer I feel patronised and insulted.

Perhaps I'm being thick, but I'm struggling to parse what the Trek woman is saying. What happens at the 140mm travel cut-off? Is 650b better above that or below that?

Is she saying:

- below 140mm: 29er
- above 140mm: 650b
- no more 26"

I've made a point of not buying anything from Giant and see no reason to discontinue that.

Although its highly likely that what you do by will be made by Giant anyway.

Heres my general view in life:

When someone with a vested £ interested tells me something is better. I switch off.

This includes employees, sponsored employees, companies advising to buy their new product, companies who rely on huge advertising income etc.

mark.a, that was my understanding.

I was talking to a lbs owner yesterday, they stock Cube, Trek, Giant & Specialized - he's gone over to 29" on nearly everything, only keeping a few entry level 26" hardtails in stock, but has got 800 (yes 800) bike on order from the above suppliers (giants generally only full suss).

Thing is he said what he's got on the shop floor (1 or 2 sizes in each model) is about all the stock he can get until week 7 next year, they've pre-sold all the stock they're rolling out then, and no other manufacture runs planned.

He was very much pushing 29ers (mainly for xc) for all but short arses, reckons 650b is where it's at for downhill, enduro etc, so most full sussers available in 650b or 29", but really running down 26" wheeled bikes, recommending you get shot of all 26" stuff asap because it'll be worth nothing before long, and everyone will be on the bigger wheels etc.

Didn't have the heart to tell him I'd just bought some 26" hope hoops from his competitor around the corner.............

But the upside for 26" fans, he had a cannondale lefty and a merida full suss in stock, as new both of them for about a third of original price, because he reckons 26" won't sell due to the showroom being full of cart wheeled bikes.

The industry has disappeared right up it's own fundament.

+1
Getting hold of kit now is a nightmare with the massive proliferation of different "standards" and there seems to be a continuing desire to stop any cross-compatibility (between road and MTB or between 9sp and 10sp drivetrains for example).

You make a pair of wheels now, they have to be:
26" or 650b or 29"
centrelock or 6-bolt
QR, 15mm or 20mm Front; QR, 135/12mm, 142x12 Rear
That's 18 possible options there!

Forks have a plethora of different steerer tube options and you can bet that last years model was a specific bearing size which has now changed again to make it stronger/stiffer/lighter.

Even road bikes aren't entirely immune from that one although at least they have the decency to stick with one wheel size. 🙄

The funny thing is I actually get the 29er thing even though I don't have one. It's not just a question of 26" vs 29" but each has its own pros and cons depending on what sort of riding you do.

650b is so close to 26" there is so little difference I just don't get the point. It's not even that it is in between the two sizes so is the perfect compromise as someone on the video was spouting.

It's like they've woken up from suspended animation and realised that they actually need to do some real R&D rather than just following niche providers like Surly and On One.

The most powerful word in advertising is "NEW"

That's really all 650B is, something new.

Its really quite impressive how quickly the entire industry has dumped 26" though

I bought a 26" Turner 5 spot this year so "NEW" will have to wait a while for me

It must be true, they've done the math.

(Why do they say that and not 'we've done the maths'?)

Although its highly likely that what you do by will be made by Giant anyway

Noted - Giant manufacture almost everyone else's frames that are made in Taiwan...but at least they don't hold sway over what the likes of Specialized et al decide to market to a large extent.

Getting hold of kit now is a nightmare with the massive proliferation of different "standards" and there seems to be a continuing desire to stop any cross-compatibility (between road and MTB or between 9sp and 10sp drivetrains for example).

This, absolutely! Take fork axles for example; there was nothing wrong with the 20mm standard, but Fox decided for whatever reason that it needed to create two different incompatible standards for XC and AM/DH. Had they simply implemented 20mm across the board, manufacturing costs would have been reduced for everyone and that would have been that.

Rear axles are another case in point - 135mm x 12mm makes sense, but someone decided that only 142mm x 12mm would do. Are there any gains in stiffness, durability or manufacturing costs? No.

All I know is that it's a massive PITA to buy a fork because of the plethora of chassis options. This absolutely cannot be helping to reduce the cost to the consumer either.

but really running down 26" wheeled bikes, recommending you get shot of all 26" stuff asap because it'll be worth nothing before long, and everyone will be on the bigger wheels etc.

Yeah the 15mm axle thing is a PITA. There was nothing wrong with 20mm apart from Fox not owning a patent on it

The point is that their only concern is to sell bikes. The two years research done by Giant was to see if they could get a large proportion of their target market to swap over to a new wheel size. It makes absolute sense to them to do this. The spares for 26 bikes will be around for years. The quality of current 26 frames will last for years. The choice will be there for some time.

Once upon a time it was populated by people who really liked to ride bikes and that to a large extent shone through to the consumer.

When was this? I assume you mean when the dandyhorse was made to order by a master carpenter. As soon as money and marketing met the bike, the bullshit started.

Didn't have the heart to tell him I'd just bought some 26" hope hoops from his competitor around the corner...........

Thing is if he's a premium volume IBD shifting those numbers of bikes, he's probably not that bothered on you buying a wheelset that has a crap margin on before someone even mentions the word discount, or "such & such is doing online for £XX.XX".

Rear axles are another case in point - 135mm x 12mm makes sense, but someone decided that only 142mm x 12mm would do. Are there any gains in stiffness, durability or manufacturing costs? No.

Even road bikes aren't entirely immune from that one although at least they have the decency to stick with one wheel size.

interesting point, road has tried a few different sizes, think Moulton, or 650, but look at the position we are now in, virtually all Road bikes still use 700c wheels. Yes there were 27" but that got dumped with metrification as much as anything.

Looking at how badly the MTB market is doing, and to be blunt it is way off where it was, the market is road bikes now, is the constant introduction of new standards actually in the markets interest? I don't see any LBS being in the position to stock all the variations.

In my opinion the end result will be one wheel size, just for a stupid reason the size will be 650b if the marketing men get their way. In doing so pissing off a large number of riders.

I'm so confused!
Is it "Twentysevenfive"? "twentysevenpointfive"? "twentyseveandahalf"? or "sixfiftybee"?
I always thought "twentyniner" now I'm hearing "twoniner"!

My god. I'm taking up golf.

Santa Cruz have been pretty consistent on their 650b line- "We're not doing this for performance reasons, we're doing it because of market pressure from people who've never ridden a 650b bike and have no idea what they're talking about. We'd have made it 26 inch if we thought it'd sell"

Not that this is good, but at least it's honest.

PJM1974 - Member

Rear axles are another case in point - 135mm x 12mm makes sense, but someone decided that only 142mm x 12mm would do. Are there any gains in stiffness, durability or manufacturing costs? No.

In the defence of 142mm, it's a much more convenient standard- easier to fit wheels etc, when done right. 135 could be a pain. It's not a big enough change to get worked up about but at least it's a superior standard, not like 15mm forks. Also, it's simple to adapt for, every 12mm-axled wheel could easily be converted to 142, it just takes minor parts changes.

It's no wonder that bloke from Giant has a flat nose. Every time he opens his mouth I want to punch him.

i like the lady from Treks approach. Although I have never had a wheel kick out when I least expect it when using a 26. If anything I would have thought a 26 would be easier to lean the bike onto the outer edge of the tyre in a regular size thus reducing the likely hood of this occuring over a larger wheel anyway, although I understand that this is countered by advantage of the increased footprint of a larger wheel and in the case of 27.5 a slightly better rolling profile.

[i]i like the lady from Treks approach[/i]

What? Just talk complete shite for a minute?

It's no wonder that bloke from Giant has a flat nose. Every time he opens his mouth I want to punch him.

😀

DezB - that's relative to all the others. 🙂

Argh. Lovely CX bike, but I want to shove it up his arse.

"New innovative features like through axles and disc brakes"

At least have the good grace to either go red or giggle when you say that.

"The seatpost is fast when you need to power through the terrain"

lost. for. words.

I wonder if in the future they'll start ****** about with road bikes.

Was he on a bonus for every time he said new.

I wonder if in the future they'll start ****** about with road bikes.

I think it depends how disc brakes go. If they realise they can sell loads of road bikes that aren't UCI compliant then I think the metaphorical gloves will come off and they'll start doing 30 inch wheels that roll over potholes better or stems that exit middle of the head tube for that "so slammed your brakes interfere with your bars" feel.

I wanted the Trance next year but not sure if I can get myself to buy one now.. I'm embarrassed to be owning a 650b at the moment.

So which bike manufactures still say 26 wheels are fine? I find it a bit strange that Orange moved the Five to 27.5 as I might have thought that Orange would have a loyal following and did not need to be up with the latest fashion. I am quite happy to believe that different wheel sizes have their strengths and weaknesses and have a 29er that is dead fast and fun but I also like my 26er as it is ace to chuck around, easier to manual, jump and pump so why I would want something in the middle I am not really sure.

If you do not like jumping and messing about so much then get a 29er. Funny nobody says a 27.5 wheel is the worst of both worlds.

Argh. Lovely CX bike, but I want to shove it up his arse.

He even says 'Thanks Ben' annoyingly.

I am surprised Ben didn't shove that proprietary shaped seatpost up his bottom.

Anyways...

What, you don't have a fast seat post.
Although I have swoped mine over to mud post for the winter obviously.
It's a bit more draggy but it's worth it for the traction.

Where does this leave Niner are they going to have to rebrand?

Seven Point Fiver or Seven Hundreder doesn't sound half as snappy 🙂

Giant guy "the future of off road technology" FFS 🙄

What, you don't have a fast seat post.
Although I have swoped mine over to mud post for the winter obviously.
It's a bit more draggy but it's worth it for the traction.

Amateur.

Surely you're going to swap it [b]out[/b]. Possibly for something with a different colourway... 😉

I just watched the Giant guy again and he says:

"The best thing to do is a consumer is to test ride the three wheel sizes themselves and determine which one is the right one for them"

Right. So I do that and decide that 26" is the best for me but the industry is going to decide that increasingly I won't be able to exercise that choice.

I don't doubt that 650b might well end up as the predominant choice in years to come and if that's all there is about I will probably buy one if I do decide to buy a new bike.

What pisses me off is their assertion that they have run all the numbers and 650b is actually superior. His statement about the push for 29ers just doesn't fill me with any confidence that they do any real R&D and come up with the "ideal" size. If that were the case then maybe, just maybe 27.5" might be that number rather than 650b which isn't half way between 26" and 29".