[Closed] The road disk debacle continues - banned from French Sportives

It is worth noting that a sportive in France is really a race, they aren't like UK ones. I don't know whether the French run them under full UCI rules, but it wouldn't surprise me, and hence possibly the discs ban.

Indeed, if you really wanted to mess up a French Sportive, then you need only turn up with a drug testing van...

Do they not see at all how a disc on the front wheel can cause injuries , especially in a high speed mass pile up?

Um, I can't.
Especially when compared to the numerous other sharp sticky-outy fast-spinny things on bikes.
Basically if any part of you hits a disc rotor, that same part of you would have been going into the wheel if the rotor wasn't there.

And the ground can cause injuries too. That tends to be quite hard and unyielding. Best ban that as well.

It is worth noting that a sportive in France is really a race, they aren't like UK ones. I don't know whether the French run them under full UCI rules, but it wouldn't surprise me, and hence possibly the discs ban.

Yes, French (and Spanish) sportives are essentially races - certainly up the sharp end. It's not uncommon to get ex-pros turning up to them for a bit of training. I've ridden a couple in Belgium and the riding standard is far superior to anything over here but by God they're fast! The only difference between a Sportive and a race is that during a Sportive everyone stops for junctions and red lights and "attacking" is seen as very poor etiquette. You ride as a group - but properly ****ing smash it!

people have been riding in groups for over 80 years without problems

Pneumatic tyres can he a blow out. Potentially lethal. Ban them.
A brake cable might snap, leaving brakes potentially lethal. Ban them.

Ban EVERYTHING!

[img] [/img]

one would hope a sportive would be reasonably open to people who only had one bike
They aren't and have never been, you think recumbents are allowed?

Note "albeit a fairly sporty one". Recumbents are generally comfort/fun machines rather than sport machines. Anyway, recumbent riders are weird, who'd want one in their sportive? (My dad has a recumbent, I should know)

Simple soloution....round the edges of the disk.

Does any one thing this could happen to uk sportives or even club runs. Swapping over from MTB riding with big discs mainly to a rim brake Defy I just hated rim brakes but am now far happier on a discs brake Defy. Not all of us are happy doing 50 + down hill on roads.

If the users wanted them you wouldn't need convince them.

Users do want them. If you need evidence, just ask your LBS.

😆

This story is hilarious, for all the right reasons.

[quote=wilburt ]Same ridiculous arguments as in every orher disc thread, bottom line- If the users wanted them you wouldn't need convince them.
What I can't figure out is why someone who uses a bike in one way, should get so upset by what sort of braking system someone who uses a bike completely differently prefers!?!

THIS

Do they not see at all how a disc on the front wheel can cause injuries , especially in a high speed mass pile up?

I think banning them is excellent for 1 reason and 1 reason alone. And that is because last year I bought a bloody lovely rim braked road bike and the longer new tech takes to become mainstream, the longer it takes for me to decide I want another new bike.

It'll be interesting to see what manufacturers do in response to this...

I commend the French!

Disc brakes should be banned from all road bikes under international law (and while they're at it, fat bikes need to be banned as well!). They go completely against the spirit of what a road bike is about, namely minimum weight, maximum speed and aesthetic elegance.

Crazy-legs, so what you are saying is that you wouldn't be bothered if you had stopped sharply and dabbed straddling your bike when the riders behind you who aren't managing to slow down to a stop quite so well went into the back of you, wouldn't you think that a disk hitting your calf could damage you? The other sharp spinny shit on bikes are as suggested largely covered in a chain some of the time,

The Tarmac argument is stupid to be honest, it's not like some one is complaining that it's hard and it hurts and it's not like riders don't know this, look at Sagan when skilfully stayed upright riding over Cancellara's bike on the PR, it was that or pain and the riders know how negotiate the inevitable and sometimes your luck runs out, but just because they have temporarily banned disks doesn't mean they are looking at how to soften a riders fall or stop racing completely as some one might fall off.

Some tragic accidents have occurred in Cycling very recently and prior to the Motorbike incident safety issues were raised which resulted in one rider dead in a freak tragic accident. Imagine if a rider died after being cut in the neck by a disk after some one has raised a safety concern, The outcome doesn't bare thinking about.
I'm not saying it's gonna definitely happen and I'm not saying it's never going to happen, a concern has been raised and as the sports governing body it has to listen, something which the UCI doesn't always get right.

i don't know what you do for a living but let's say for instance you ride bikes as a job, a colleague raises concerns about something and the team manager passes this up and nothing's done at the top, the governing body chooses to ignore the complaint, 3 weeks later your dead. Everyone around you has to accept it was an accident and nothing could be done about it OR look at the problem, asses the likely outcomes then act on findings.

Arguing about cogs, sprockets brake levers spokes and the road surface have been categorised in the sports genetics since the dawn of the governing body and are widely accepted by most riders as a risk to yourself and others.

I think there will be a shift change once the relevant boxes have been ticked and papers shuffled. Until then this will probably rumble on much like the great wheel debate?

Quite an interesting article on how the UCI works using discs as the latest example...

http://inrng.com/2016/04/the-disk-brake-fiasco/

Crazy-legs, so what you are saying is that you wouldn't be bothered if you had stopped sharply and dabbed straddling your bike when the riders behind you who aren't managing to slow down to a stop quite so well went into the back of you, wouldn't you think that a disk hitting your calf could damage you?

I'd be more worried about 80+kg of bike and rider hitting me. It's going to hurt. They might not hit me if they had disc brakes cos they'd be able to stop in time. 😉

Bikes have lots of sharp sticky outy bits - so do riders for that matter. Brake levers, bar ends, pedals, nose of saddle. Any of those bits going into a soft squishy person is going to hurt. Chances of being cut by a rotor are virtually zero (given how well the rotor is protected behind the rear triangle or the fork) and as for having my neck sliced by one as you suggest - frankly if I'm face down on my own or someone else's wheel in a big pile up, I'm going to be in a bad way. 32 spinning bits of high tensioned wire slicing into me for a start!

I think you're just talking bollocks for the sake of it TBH.

OK, thats's fine, I'm just amazed that you consider bikes to be so sooooo dangerous, i'm surprised you can throw a leg over without half killing yourself on the deathly implements, And the Tarmac being so hard must play havoc with you.

I think most of what you put is Bollocks quite frankly but then again i haven't got Disks on a road bike so i'm not bothered in trying to convince everyone else that i made the right purchase.

Easiest solution to the whole debacle would be to enforce Alu rims OR alu tracks on Carbon rims then the scary prospect of riding such a dangerous implement might go away?

Accidents can and do happen, freak accidents are exactly that you cant replicate them in your garage with LYCRA and an old work bench, pretending everythings fine and that you didnt hurt yourself so the Pro Peleton is wrong and Lying, Good Work.

sputnik - Member

The biggest knee jerk reaction is by all the disk brake equipped road bike owners.

It's hard to see how they're knee jerking at all. Meanwhile the UCI just banned discs because of 2 imaginary accidents. If you're going to ban things for imaginary reasons, why not make it fun? Like how they contine with the minimum weight rules to stop tiny dragons flying off with people's bikes.

Meanwhile the UCI just banned discs because of 2 imaginary accidents.

A trial was being conducted. The trial has been put on hold pending an investigation. The UCI have not "just banned discs".

The only people really impacted by the trial being put on hold are World Tour teams, who don't really want it, and manufacturers, who do want it to leverage marketing.

The rest of us (other than French sportifists) are free to ride whatever we want 🙂

I'm just amazed that you consider bikes to be so sooooo dangerous, i'm surprised you can throw a leg over without half killing yourself on the deathly implements

That's my point though, I [b]don't[/b] consider bikes to be dangerous nor do I half kill myself on any bits of them so I'm really failing to see how removing two rim brakes and adding two disc brakes is going to make the blindest bit of difference safety wise.

Other than being able to stop more reliably.

So what about the hard Tarmc, "GNARMAC" if you like, 32 deadly spokes, bar ends, brake levers and saddle noses that you mentioned earlier? you sound like a man on the edge to be honest,

And how has a picture from a pro rider from a Hospital bed been construed as Imaginary? who makes up this shit? the same people who still think motors weren't used in frames i bet.

Theres a good chance that concluding a review and once the manufacturers pump more money in some people will look at it through slightly different coloured spectacles and there will be a change in attitude towards heavier bikes and slower wheel changes. Once all the teams are running them then everyones wheel changes will be as slow so the playing field will be levelled.

All this bollocks about brakes when all the Pro's want to do is go faster,

I'm really failing to see how removing two rim brakes and adding two disc brakes is going to make the blindest bit of difference safety wise.

In the context of a pro peloton, the disc brake trial is meant to establish whether it makes the blindest bit of difference safety wise. There's been a reported incident. The trial has been put on hold while that incident is being investigated. Sounds a pretty reasonable course of action.

It seems knee jerk but I think the French spotifists have taken quite a reasonable stance. If in the unlikely event that an accident was to occur you can bet that, given the current climate, questions would be asked and there would be legal action.

How has a picture from a pro rider from a Hospital bed been constued as Imaginary?

Well given that no riders from either of the 2 teams racing with disc brake equipped bikes in the race recall any incident with the rider in question...

So it's make up then on his leg? Cosmetic's Ah i see........ I thought he had claimed it was real and not Imaginary.

So it's make up then on his leg?

Nope, it's a nasty gash but the general consensus is that it had absolutely **** all to do with contact with a disc rotor.

But that's why the Trial has been halted i thought, As mrblobby said above, I didnt think it was imaginary and the letter which he wrote i also believe to be real.

Under such a serious allegation what did people expect to happen? Surely investigating this they have the relevant info and experience to find out what actually happened, i mean it's not like they have a track record on keeping shit covered up is it?

xyeti - Member

I thought he had claimed it was real and not Imaginary.

That's the thing, when you imagine things.

I don't think he's lying btw, I just think he's wrong. He admits himself he wasn't aware of the injury at the time, so he's retconned the entire incident in a way that makes sense to him, but without recourse to facts. And he's tied it into the other incident which has now been proven to have nothing to do with discs, which demonstrates how reliable his judgement is. It's a shame really, he's had a pretty traumatic experience and it's understandable why he's gone off on one.

Baring in mind though one of the few people he spoke to directly after his crash was the other Injured party sat in the back of the Ambulance both recounting what happened, its hardly surprising he's confused.

Dont forget its his job to stay out there so if he's seen an oportunity to aportion blame.......... I mean i would if i thought "Sheeeeet i ****ed up there" Ooooooh what happened to your leg,

I think i caught it on a rotor when i piled into the back of that tit,

AHHHHH ! I think thats how i did mine........ SNAP!

So now you're agreeing that it probably wasn't anything to do with rotors? As it's been as good as confirmed that the other person's injuries definitely weren't rotor inflicted...

NO, What i'm saying is this, I CAN SSEE BOTH SIDES. But until an investigation takes place.
Allegations have been made, a written letter has been submitted. I'm of the opinion that face planting into an upturned bike 'Unlikely" i know or a rider running straight into another may be unlikely it may also be likely.
However
Prior to this concerns were raised about Motor Cycles, A Cyclist died.

These concerns have to be taken as seriously as a Golfer saying "Seriously...... you want me to go out in a thunder storm and tee off" then getting struck by lightning, or a butcher saying i think that meat slicer is dangerous without the guard fitted and then loosing a finger.

It's these guys job so it has to be taken seriously, i didn't for one minute think it was make up and i cast my own aspertions and tried to picture what might have happened on Monday when i saw the story break. I do know they shared the same ambulance. They prob swapped stories and IF he was thinking how the F did this happen he may well have found an answer?

i also saw my mate get mugged and his face slashed from his chin to his temple and down his ear onto his neck neding 300 stitches, he didnt know he'd been cut. so baring in mind he'd got a couple of hundred KM's in his legs i doubt feeling that would have registered straight away. I'm awaiting the outcome.

xyeti - Member

Baring in mind though one of the few people he spoke to directly after his crash was the other Injured party sat in the back of the Ambulance both recounting what happened, its hardly surprising he's confused.

Absolutely. But that's exactly why it's no basis for the UCI to take action. You run a trial to collect evidence.

I'm still standing by the fact that i dont think they are needed on road bikes though. However using Cork Pads on plastic rims is just as stupid.

I'm still standing by the fact that i dont think they are needed on road bikes though.

Nor were;
Pneumatic tyres
QR wheels
Gears
Cable, rather than rod, operated brakes
Aero spokes
Aero in general
Electric shifting
Clipless pedals
Internal cable routing
Helmets
Lycra
Ratchet, velcro, Boa etc shoe systems
Bike computers
Power meters
Team cars
Etc, etc, etc.

None of these were actually needed. They were all part of this crazy thing called progress.

All that is needed, really, is this;
[img] [/img]

Mais, en bref.... Vous êtes des assassins!

(Hat to anyone who knows the bike by the way.)

Northwind, Yes i suppose?

But i'd imagine they wanted a STOP on the trial with immeiate effect after the accident "Just in case" with a view to a descision being made after collating their evidence. Disk brakes will make a re introduction but i think the first findings with heat dissipation will factor massively in the frame design and materials where it is attached to the frame.

I take it theres No footage of this incident then?

I still struggle to see why discs represent such a risk, but bladed spokes, for example, are perfectly OK.

But i'd imagine they wanted a STOP on the trial with immeiate effect after the accident "Just in case" with a view to a descision being made after collating their evidence. D

Why didn't they STOP motorbikes after the recent horrors?
Why didn't they STOP media and team cars after this...
[img] [/img]

Because they weren't on trial.

Flasheart, i KNOW what you are saying but,

Dunlops tyres, Make you go faster, ride more Comfy. recently 23mm, 25m and even 28mm on some of the Classics.

QR Wheels, faster wheel changes than the butterfly nuts, "Yes i remember them" i even had them....

Gears, Make you faster

Cable brakes, Make you faster "prob say the same in another few years re disks" once they develop a QR cam or latching system.

Aero Everything, Makes you faster,

Most if not all have upsides, For these guys "AND AT THE MINUTE" For the here and now, Baring in mind we have only really seen the major Classics and a few minor tours the negatives outweigh the positives.

Frame design, Flexing and scuffing the pads knocking YOUR powere down, POWER that pays your wages, that is worked for, trained for, paid for,
Slower wheel changes, Years of riding QR's times down to a few seconds when all of a sudden your riding cobbles, in Belgium and you know at some point theres gonna be a wheel change, you have just turned yourself inside out to close the gap and now youve flatted, i hate trying to get that shagging disk between those bastard pads.......
Heat build up, plastic frames, has anyone mentioned they are Dangerous??????

Like i said, It'll happen but i think the industry and bike manufacturers have to think a bit more instead of pumping out stuff knowing that we are stupid enough to buy it. Good for them i say for shunning it and lets see some better ideas on frame design.

FFS, Do any of you lot have a job,

You know when some one says, These weapons are on trial, if the bastard things break or fail to fire then we will sell them to the French............

Like a footballer who's shit and gets sent back to his team............ he was on trial and now hes proved he's shit hes gone back. TRIAL over...... Next.

Dunlops tyres, Make you go faster, ride more Comfy. recently 23mm, 25m and even 28mm on some of the Classics.

QR Wheels, faster wheel changes than the butterfly nuts, "Yes i remember them" i even had them....

Gears, Make you faster

Cable brakes, Make you faster "prob say the same in another few years re disks" once they develop a QR cam or latching system.

Aero Everything, Makes you faster,

Better brakes - Safer, more control, allow you to stay faster for longer. Also, I'd wager there's more flex at the outer end of the wheel than at the hub if you want to talk about brake rub.

I don't think anyone has shunned anything. It's on hold pending an investigation. Meanwhile the Internet has a meltdown because it's not all resolved in Internet time.

Given how few people (who arguably don't want it anyway) this decision actually effects I don't really see an issue with taking time over it.

@ I'mnotverygood.

You know the spokes are bound at the ends with threaded beads laced into a rim right, its not like a wheel hitting your leg is going to punture you with the ends,

The spokes on wheels werent arent on trial, they helped form the bike today as we know it, before a governing body saw fit to impose technicalities on stuff and things. These disks "MIGHT" if ridden into, over, across cause damage, these problems were highlighted BEFORE introduction and then introduced in Time Trialing where by if you make contact with another rider you have done something really good or really bad.

Nothing too strenous there as its mainly flat and although arduous not particuarly taxing for a pair of brakes.

So it was decided to introduce the emperors new clothes into a few teams as a "TRIAL" and upon that basis something happened, Trial Halted.

Also, I'd wager there's more flex at the outer end of the wheel than at the hub if you want to talk about brake rub.

Probably is but you can set calipers further away if needed. In fact one of the few advantages of calipers is the ability to adjust this distance on the fly. I bent a wheel in a road race when I clipped the bike of the rider in fronts frame. Yet i could open up the caliper on the fly without losing my place in the bunch.

Flasheart, i dont really want to talk about brake rub,, i dont go fast enough on the road to warrant disk brakes.

The flex i mentioned was recorded by a team who noticed that when OOTS sprinting or climbing or putting the hammer down the rotor was scrubbing the brakes, they deemed that to be a disadvantage.

hours, days, weeks, months spent training. Working out power maximising watts, OH wait Guys, i've got some shit to bolt on your bike, its heavier and it'll knock your power off as it scrubs on the pads, No we cant adjust the pad spacing with a simple grub screw at the calliper, we can bleed them tonight and hope that'll make em better but i've got to do it naked, standing on one leg, with the moon in its third phase whilst a cockrell crows.

Even then the feel in the lever will go dead as the heat builds up in the reservoir.

I bent a wheel in a road race when I clipped the bike of the rider in fronts frame.

That bent wheel wouldn't have caused any brake rub on a disc. Any rub would be at the rim, not the hub. Wheels flex more at the rim than at the hub. There will be more brake rub from calipers than discs, especially when out of the saddle or sprinting.

Maybe they "Imagined" it then,