Yeh he seemed to be favouring the pyramidal approach more?
Re TR I continue to see comments that their programs are too much SS and above for people, who tried them and ditched them, including some comment below his video. Obviously you're finding it works well for you though.
Just got Mark Beaumont's new book, Endurance, as a prezzie off my wife. Not sure what it will add to his podcasts which I've been enjoying, and pretty sure there's no actual training plan in it, more concepts, but we'll see...
I got the MB book for my wife, I'll be reading it as well!
Without discussing TR's plans too much (there's already a massive thread for those and the workouts) most of the SS workouts are in the higher volume plans but with just one exception when I did a mid-volume Build plan I've always done the low-volume plans which are just 3 sessions a week. Thus by nature of there being a "minimum effective dose" or MED in order to progress those sessions are more intense.
Sweet Spot (i.e. around the high tempo, low threshold area or Z3/4) workouts are meant to be tough but recoverable in that you should be able to do them day after day. The downside is that you aren't really stressing any other system so at some point you have to move away from that middle ground, put in hours at Z2/endurance and pep that up with interval work.
Training's a bit of a one-shot oddity: if you've never trained then any structured training will show improvements but you can't say if following a different regimen would have been quicker, less stressful or whatever since you can't rewind the clock back to your untrained state. Similarly if you've trained before or regularly then all that you can state about any training plan different to one that you are following is that it will "shock" your system so you'll see gains whilst your body adjusts. Once you've trained a while you know what level of training stress you can handle, how much recovery you need, etc.
This is really where the "one size fits all" training plans from whoever fall down so you either have to build your own or get a coach. So for <cough>mature</cough> athletes an 8 or 9 day week might work better or a 2:1 work/recovery week ratio. Also after a while you know where your own weak spots are so can sub workouts to work on those.
Cheers, Yeh well I'll be writing mine tonight I think to start on Tuesday and it will be 2:1 given my poor recovery issues and... age 🤪
Nice! Another over-under session today.
I mentioned a few posts above that I've still not successfully actually completed an FTP test other than my first one which felt too easy (as in, I had something left at end). Either way, I've assumed my FTP is 263W and based all my training zones on that, even though I've not actually proven it by way of a test. Seems silly, but the actual workouts seem perfect (usually just struggling in last couple of sets) and don't seem to be suffering from burnout or overtraining after approx 8 weeks using these zones.
Aaaaaanyway, long story short, I'm doing 3 sets of 4 over-unders, 1 minute @ 130% FTP followed by 2 minutes @ 98%, but which usually seems to drift to just a smidge over FTP. I can complete but the 20-30seconds after an over get a bit ropey by the end.
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I effectively end up doing 3x12minute intervals at FTP or above, or at an average of approx 106% FTP.
Makes me wonder if I'm using too low an FTP? But then why can't I ride for 20 minutes at that FTP?
Only thing I'm thinking is that the 20 minute test I'm doing incorporates a 5 minute effort before the test to reduce the anaerobic contribution to the FTP test, so perhaps I should ditch that in order to finally actually complete a 20 minute test, even if it means the FTP it gives me is higher than it should be.
Alternative is always doing a 5 minute effort before each workout for consistency, don't think I fancy that...
106% average power is probably just below 10TT pace, but you're 'only' doing 12 minutes x 3, with a bit of rest between, where as a 10TT is probably two of them with no rest, or a bit more than two for me on our local sporting course 😂
I'd expect that you're probably still getting that anaerobic help that the 5 min pre-exhaust is trying to reduce in the 20min test and obviously some recovery between sets so it's a manageable effort despite the numbers.
If you want an FTP number you need to do the proper protocol or the number will definitely be wrong, that's why the protocols for shorter test are as they are. The other option is the hour of power/pain 😢
I guess regardless of FTP the question is what are you trying to address/improve? Do you need to know your FTP precisely for your goals or is close good enough for what you want to do to hit the physiological levels you intend to?
For me it's aerobic and muscular endurance I'm interested in more than top end power for endurance rides, as I'm trying to avoid high heart rate and too much intensity, and on a actual trip or audax I'd be avoiding any threshold work as much as possible. Obviously having a higher threshold/FTP massively helps, but I'm not sure I need to worry about exactly what it is as long as I know what it feels like (or my hr/breathing is) at Z2 or threshold. I don't have power readings other than on the turbo.
1 minute @ 130% FTP followed by 2 minutes @ 98%
Is that right or a typo? 130% seems very high, into anaerobic sprint territory. 60 seconds at that level would have me wanting to be at 80% or lower for the valleys! 110% is probably high enough.
I've been doing outdoor workouts and working to RPE rather than Power/HR/breathing but obviously HR & breathing are significant factors in RPE. Obviously you need to know how any given RPE relates to specific levels of effort like threshold, etc. I have a good feel for what upper level Z2 (power) and threshold feel like without needing any direct monitoring. Doesn't really matter if I'm doing 70% or 75%.
Is that right or a typo? 130% seems very high, into anaerobic sprint territory. 60 seconds at that level would have me wanting to be at 80% or lower for the valleys! 110% is probably high enough.
D'oh! Not a typo, but I did my maths wrong, the perils of having to convert from speed to power using a spreadsheet power formula... Works out as 120%, which I agree still seems high for the purpose of the workout.
I'll stick with it, as longdog alludes to, I don't actually care what the FTP number is, so long as it puts me in the right zones for effective workouts. Today's workout was tough but I completed it (just, felt a tiny bit sick as I stepped off which is a first!) so am assuming I'm in the right zone.
My last 'threshold' workout was 3x10min @ 108% FTP, which again seems high for that sort of workout which I understand should be up to 100% FTP (albeit for up to 4x15min if Dylan Johnson is anything to go by!).
I think I need to test my FTP properly...
Edit: Watching (yet another) Dylan Johnson video, I'm beginning to suspect I'm more of an anaerobic rider, which is why shorter workouts seem to give me favourable results. I think I need to focus on increasing duration rather than intensity for now...
13thfloormonk I'm the same, as I said back near the start when I've done ramp tests my ftp from them has come back too high as I seem quite good at suffering through short hard efforts. But it doesn't suit the riding I want to do, or should be doing now.
Started sketching out my training plan on a spreadsheet and building workouts in zwift,but then my son wanted the PV to playing online D&D with his mates. Grrrrr... Had to let him socialise the it way he can just now.
Anyway zwift custom workout builder is good and easy to use, the bonus is it gives you TSS for each workout, so easy to build in progression over the sessions due to both intensity and duration. I wish you could copy and paste and duplicate in it though rather than having to start each workout from scratch.
@longdog use Zwift workout editor.
You can use basic text so you can write all the workout with easy commands such as:
Steady 20m 90%
For a 20 min block at 90% of ftp.
And it will build it for you. Makes copying and pasting a lot easier. Download the workouts onto tour pc. Put them in your workout folder and boot up Zwift and they are all there ready to go.
@robbo1234biking ah great thanks I'd forgotten about that sort of thing! I must have used that in the past looking at some of my old custom workouts on there.
at some point I must have also figured out how to import best bike split routes in too, as I had the local 10 & 25tt and some of my other regular routes in there as workouts per best bike splits power and durationrecommendations! No idea now how I did it,but I did !😂
I'm trying to figure out the best time to take an FTP test while on a rest week. I have a sweet-spot scheduled for Thursday and a light Z2 on Wednesday.
I'm thinking that I will do the FTP test in place of the SS and keep the Z2 as a little warm up. What do you guys think? Should I do that, not do the Z2 at all and just the FTP on Thurs. FTP on Wed and SS on Thurs? Ooh the permutations!
I guess one question would be how long is the z2? 1 hour or 3, though you do say light.
I think I'd probably do the FTP instead of the z2 as then you can use it to set your SS level. Alternatively if you're feeling fresh do it tonight and use it to set all your zones including the z2.
I start my new block tonight, first session is vo2 HIIT 🤔😭
I’m thinking that I will do the FTP test in place of the SS and keep the Z2 as a little warm up.
Sounds about right - maybe even sprinkle in a couple of 15s sprints into that Z2 workout, just to wake your legs up.
I'd have done the FTP first, unless you've been off the bike for a few days and need to spin the legs first?
Everything I've read says FTP when fresh and rested.
Doing a SS workout in a rest/recovery week? All the workouts should be Z2 max.
Also depends on what testing protocol you are using - 20min, 8min, Ramp Test, 4DP? They all have different stress/fatigue levels. You should also always be consistent in how you approach a test, doing a warmup workout one time but not the next will affect the results. Record what you did in the notes for the workout then you know what to do next time.
I'd leave the test until the start of next week otherwise you aren't getting the benefits of the rest/recovery week. Training is as much about structure and consistency as actually doing the prescribed work. Flexibility does come into it but only if circumstances dictate: illness; injury; etc.
Everything I’ve read says FTP when fresh and rested.
Definitely, but a Z2 workout the day before shouldn't go against that, assuming we're not talking a 3hr Z2 workout of course!
You can also go in too rested - most training plans I've seen recommend a short outing with a few high intensity efforts the day before a race, for example.
You can also go in too rested – most training plans I’ve seen recommend a short outing with a few high intensity efforts the day before a race, for example.
Yeah I've been given this advice as well, e.g. as part of your taper for a CX race you actually want to do some hard efforts the day before to get some endorphins in your legs!
Maybe that's why my FTP tests keep going so badly...
@mogrim - workouts like that tend to be part of a taper week where you reduce volume and load but keep or even increase intensity. If I look at my plan the penultimate weeks have a TSS of around 300 with 90min workouts with mostly threshold intervals. The last week has two hour long workouts of VO2max sprints but only a total of 130 TSS.
It does depend on what @10 is currently doing: currently there's no indication as to why they wish to do an FTP test - new kit? If they are on a plan then the next test will be part of that plan (or should be). More info please!
I'm following the TCTP which doesn't call for a test during the program. However, I'm not happy with how the test I took went before I started. The workouts seem to be a little easy. I want to double check so I don't waste time on the program at the wrong level.
Not sure what TCTP is, a Zwift plan?, but if you feel your FTP is about right you should be able to manually tweak it to put you in the right ball park. Even with testing I'll adjust my FTP as necessary to get the most out of the workouts.
After a while you get to know what particular levels should feel like. Also with a lot of starter plans the workouts aren't intended to be really stressful and many people think they should add more, change the intensity, etc. I'd still leave this week as a recovery week, that's what it's for.
I think I'm going to rip up my training plan and just focus on the one metric which I seem to be improving on: maximum cadence 😀
188RPM on the rollers today, bit bouncy, I thought maybe my tyres were soft or my technique off but that's a personal best so I'll take it!
Otherwise a pretty satisfactory 2x20 minute sweetspot effort, just riding on HR which I think was a bit high for sweetspot (95%LTHR or 90%MaxHR) so will try lower next time and aim for 2x25 perhaps.
TCTP is the Time Crunched Training Plan from CTS.
New to this thread - so forgive any stupid questions...
I've tried out Zwift and Rouvy on their trials and have signed up to a trial on RGT.
For those that use RGT - it looks a bit limited even on a Premium membership. A total of 9 rides under "Just ride". Workouts - no sweetspot or over under type stuff. It all looks to be 8 or 9 variations of Threshold, VO2 max, Recovery etc.
So, my question is, am I just not seeing a section where all the other workouts and rides are hiding or is that it?
Zwift seemed a lot better - but as there will be two of us using it, Zwift does work out quite pricey.
Thanks!
Don't know anything about RGT, sorry.
If you've not done any training before then you'll see gains from just about anything but ultimately you do need a good base on which to build. HIIT is popular and you'll see quick gains but those gains will typically plateau after a month or so.
Zwift workouts and plans have a mixed reception:
But some on here have used them to good effect though I haven't seen any long term (as in 12 months or so) reports of how things have gone.
If you want a month's trial for TrainerRoad let me know I've four referral codes available. TR is very much performance based and the UI is very basic so if you want entertainment then you need to provide that yourself.
Interesting video by a Training Peaks coach there on a competitors training plans .... 🙃
*haven't actually watched it yet. Just letting the inner cynic run ahead
He's a CTS coach but a fair point though he does mention at the start of the video that he likes Zwift. There are others (obviously non-Zwift coaches) who have similar criticisms of the workouts
I did watch it last night and I’m not disagreeing with him that’s for sure. And can you imagine trying to undertake a Zwift workout outside?
I’m actually not getting on with TR despite some early enthusiasm. Not that there’s anything wrong with it per se. Its another layer of complexity to what is already a difficult to manage array of training. No doubt I’m missing out some gains but that’s on paper only, in practice working against my psychology is a bigger issue.
My natural approach to training which is driven by what seems a contradictory mix of mood and routine with little externally driven structure. Hey ho, back to the drawing board.
I say drawing board, I mean wondering about power meters for outside.
I can certainly see Dylan Johnson's point, it takes me one or two goes sometimes to get a workout just 'right' i.e. finding perfect pace and cadence to complete it properly. And that's just for basic interval sessions. Those Zwift sessions look like you'd constantly be chasing or overshooting zones.
(unless of course ERG just allows you to sit at 90RPM the whole time? In which case the cynic in me thinks Zwift makes their workouts that complicated in order to make completely people reliant on Zwift and their Smart turbo...)
Might just be me, but I find the Trainerroads resistance control more effective than Zwifts. Meaning it’s easier on TR to sit at the target power.
Hopefully we don't go down the zwift v tr too far again, but even as a heavy zwift user I can see many of his points. Plenty of workouts I just wouldn't do as they don't appear to do what I want/expect then to do. I think some of the actual plans are better like the gravel grinder one I've just done and the cape epic one I've been looking at.
I can't afford both zwift and tr, along with every other subscription to this and that. I've invested a lot of time in zwift so I'm comfy with it, and making up your own custom workouts on it is dead easy. So I'm currently doing my own plan on zwift with cus custom workouts made up from information from various books and websites, and I can adjust as necessary.
If you've got an interest in tr I'd certainly take up the intro offer from Whitestone.
I’m a new user to TR - done a couple of weeks with a basic dumb trainer with speed sensor / cadence sensor / hr strap. Found on that I was spinning some very high cadence (for me) to hit the virtual power target.
My Kickr Core arrived so I set it up last night and did a new ramp test this morning - that was very different to the other setup. On erg mode for the ramp I could sit around 80rpm and it gradually ground my legs to a halt around 302watts I think it was. So ftp on there is now 221 vs the virtual power estimate of 238.
Feels like I’m going to have to concentrate less with erg as I’m not having to mess about with gears / cadence to hit virtual power.
TR does seem basic, but equally my setup in the garage therefore doesn’t need to be fancy and I like the plan it’s come up with. Just got the iPhone on the handlebars with the app running and I have a basic Amazon fire tablet with prime on it - haven’t resorted to the tablet yet but will see how it goes with the Kickr.
@piemonster - using a power meter outside is fine you just need to be aware that there's a lot of natural fluctuation in the reading so it's best to have your head unit report "smoothed data", 5 or 10 seconds should be fine, just play around with it until you are happy in how it behaves. You want it reasonably smooth but also responsive enough to report the power for sprints, etc. The underlying data is unchanged, it's just the display that's modified.
Also just about the best thing you can bring to any training is consistency, I've seen this list (in order):
1. Volume
2. Consistency
3. Nutrition
4. Recovery (sleep and rest days and recovery weeks)
5. Training distribution
6. Overall training philosophy
7. Exact interval prescription
So basically: Do enough; do it consistently; eat well; sleep well. The final three are mostly adjusting things to be more efficient in improving.
@joebristol - almost impossible to compare one setup vs another, you just have to go with what you are using. I "lost" about 15% going from virtual power to a proper power meter. The workouts didn't get any easier!
The ERG death mode spiral! You tire so your cadence drops so ERG increases the resistance to compensate so your cadence drops ...
@13thfloormonk - ERG lets you self-select cadence so if you like pedalling at 85rpm then the resistance to achieve the target power will reflect that, if you prefer spinning @ 110rpm then the resistance will be lower to achieve the same target. (Oh, 90%MHR is usually considered to be in the VO2max range not sweet spot. something's up)
I've not used ERG but generally comments say it's good for some things but not for others - certainly good for cadence work as you don't have to search for a gear to give you 5rpm extra, you just spin a bit quicker.
@longdog - more than enough "which is better" or "TR vs Zwift" threads I agree! And this thread is more aimed at generic training principles etc. No-one seems to know why the Zwift workouts are the way they are, they are like nothing else that I've seen from any other programme or coach, maybe that's the point. Who knows?
(Oh, 90%MHR is usually considered to be in the VO2max range not sweet spot. something’s up)
Yeah, I have a strange relationship with Sweetspot, I just can't bring myself to ease off enough to 'hit' the right heart rates, it just feels too easy at that point!
I guess I'm missing the whole point which is that I should be able to repeat day after day, I tend to substitute sweetspot for one of my other workouts when typically I'll have a rest or recovery day the next day, so there's maybe no point taking it too easy. Perhaps I should just call my sweetspot workouts 'long easy sub-threshold workouts'...
1. Volume
2. Consistency
3. Nutrition
4. Recovery (sleep and rest days and recovery weeks)
5. Training distribution
6. Overall training philosophy
7. Exact interval prescription
I like this list, I should pin it on my wall, I think it will save my sanity every time I start stressing about whether I should be doing over-unders or thresholds 😀
I've been using erg mode only for the last 10weeks that I was doing the gravel grinder program. I'll continue mainly using it in my new plan. I've got to say I like it other than the change over from say a rest interval to working one where it take my be 12secs on my elite direto to settle at the specified power. It's good in that you learn to pedal more consistently to stop the power jumping about so much and it really shows what a difference cadence can make in RPE and how you can work different muscular or aerobic systems from 60rpm grind at say 250w to a fast spin at 100rpm.
It's then telling when I do a free ride in zwift that I may change gears less than I used to and push through a hill, whereas before I'd be more likely to drop down gears a spin. For me (partial knee and dicky ticker) gives me the practice and confidence to choose the method depending on the situation and how I'm feeling.
I think that's the benefit of a plan whether it's a "one size fits all" plan from a company or a bespoke* one from a personal coach, so long as your kit's reasonably well calibrated then you'll hit the right power/RPE/HR/energy system targets.
Just checked my last workout with long SS intervals (3x20) average HR was 81%, 85% & 86%MHR - I ignored the initial ramp up to get these figures. Ignore the first one, I didn't even get out of Z3, my whole body was just warming up, so somewhere in the 85% region would be about right for SS intervals
*Unless you've been with a coach for a reasonable length of time so they know what works and what doesn't for you then even their plans are going to be somewhat "cookie cutter".
Just checked my last workout with long SS intervals (3×20) average HR was 81%, 85% & 86%MHR
Yes, the significant difference there is the third interval! I found my second interval at the intensity I was doing just felt a little difficult to get back on top of.
3x20 minutes + recovery intervals would probably get me all the way through my Mt Ventoux 'ride the world' POV video downloaded off Youtube 😎
Not wanting to ask this to generate willy waving, but to those who track it what sort of weekly TRIMP or TSS are 'running' at and what do you tend to drop it to on a recovery week?
I use elevate via strava for TRIMP (because I can use HR for outside rides and walks too) to try to monitor my load and encourage me to be sensible. My TRIMP scores are always massive compared to my friend's like when we both do the same hike or ride, more than double.
I am a lot heavier (both fat and generally larger build) and have my heart issues, so not sure which or both are the issues. But I'm feeling regardless of the cause it's not great for me to be 'running' so hard all the time and may even be a contributing factor to my dicky ticker.
I'm trying to moderate what I do.and don't really want to do even less as I'll not be up to doing what I want to do when weather improves and hopefully covid restrictions ease.
Did just over 40 hours in January between biking (turbo), hiking and swimming (minimal) in descending order, so not massive by at means.
Not wanting to ask this to generate willy waving, but to those who track it what sort of weekly TRIMP or TSS are ‘running’ at and what do you tend to drop it to on a recovery week?
Mines about 700TSS on a heavy week to 350 TSS on a recovery week. Don't forget not all TSS is equal...
Cheers Kryton57. Yeh my current plan is 1x HIIT, 1x SS, 1hour z2, 1x longer tempo, 1x longer z2. This program building to about 420TSS on the zwift workouts, but that could go up depending on how things go. I might substitute the HIIT for another SS workout which could be higher TSS than the HIIT.
I'll have my walking/hiking and bits of swimming on top of that.
Recovery weeks are about 290 TSS from the zwift workouts. Weeks 3 and 6 in this block.
I use intervals.icu rather than TrainingPeaks/WKO but they give most of the same data. Current CTL is 52 so that's basically a weekly average TSS of 360 but recent weeks have been around the 400 mark, recovery weeks are half that, 200 or so. CTL, Chronic Training Load, is a 42 day weighted average of TSS. Last Sept/Oct it was around 75 so I've eased off a bit for a while but I'll pick things up again in the next month or two.
Outdoor rides are HR only so the TSS is estimated from that.
That TSS is biking only. I do a physical job (dry stone walling) so there's definitely some TSS there! A couple of months ago I wondered why I was so tired when starting a workout and realised the previous day I'd shifted about 15 tonnes of stone - eek!
As Kryton says, not all TSS is created equal - I'm very much a diesel and could ride all day at Z2/3 and be fine but a hour's VO2max will leave me with tired legs the following day. Work out how different intensities affect you and adjust things accordingly.
Not wanting to ask this to generate willy waving, but to those who track it what sort of weekly TRIMP or TSS are ‘running’ at and what do you tend to drop it to on a recovery week?
Between 400 (start of a training block) up to 700 (just before a recovery week). I then drop to 250-300TSS when recovering.
Cheers seems like my ideas are in tbe right ball park, but I'll have to see how I get one over the first two weeks and adjust accordingly. My recovery week may need to drop a bit more, but it is every 3 weeks.
My current CTL equivalent on elevate with TRIMP is 87 with a TSB equivalent of about -20, not sure how that compares to the official TP PMC using just TSS. I've been on a steady build since I was cleared to start doing more stuff again.
I did a dry stone walling course a long time ago, yeh hard work,and lots of skill too. Nice to hear of someone who's keeping it going 😎
For those that use RGT – it looks a bit limited even on a Premium membership. A total of 9 rides under “Just ride”. Workouts – no sweetspot or over under type stuff. It all looks to be 8 or 9 variations of Threshold, VO2 max, Recovery etc.
So, my question is, am I just not seeing a section where all the other workouts and rides are hiding or is that it?
It's a new platform and developing all the time. there's a load of magic roads too, of varying quality. The training relies a bit on programmes via Training Peaks I think. There's a couple of free ones on offer. Using zwofactory.com, it's dead easy to create whatever you want, email to RGT and they send it to your profile. I don't like all the gamey bits on Zwift, so RGT fine, for now at least.
Over the last 13 weeks I’ve been averaging 850 TSS (highest week was 1097, lowest 629) That’s a combination of indoor training on Zwift (Team Time Trial races, base training rides and SS and tempo sessions) and 100 mile plus rides outside on a Sunday.My CTL is around the 130 mark atm. After years of self coaching I’ve taken the plunge of being coached by someone else. The reason behind my thinking is after doing well at the TT’s I did last year I’d like to take it to the next step. I’ve chosen a guy who I’ve been following for quite a while now and find his comments on social media really informative. In my eyes he knows his onions 😁 It’ll be interesting to see what he has in store for me.
