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@jameso - I think your question about HR vs Wattage may have answers here: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/training/how-to-build-your-cycling-endurance-407292
All this talk of FTPs needs to be /Kg for any comparison doesn't it - My 252W has to propel 90Kg. I've not done a proper FTP test yet, but that figure (from RGT) seems about right, as the HIIT intervals have been a struggle - especially in ERG mode.....
For those training for Frontier 300, don't forget upper body fatigue/core strength conditioning.
I'm only doing around 400tss a week at the moment with 90% of that strict z2 (Coggan). Included in that is about 80tss/wk of easy running.
Despite having trained to around 800tss/wk in the past, I'm finding 400/wk ample right now to make progress.
I'm on a mission to get fast without running myself down. I burnt out completely from too much training a few years ago. It took me two years to want to race again.
Am at 4-4.2 watts/kilo on 400tss. Hit 4.5 watts/kilo when I was doing 800tss weeks but I was in a state. My knees used to hurt too much to get out of the saddle, my ankle hurt badly and I was tired and irritable the whole time. I'll take the 0.3watts loss and feel great thanks.🙂
All this talk of FTPs needs to be /Kg for any comparison doesn’t it
Not really, the chat has been refreshingly free of anh sort of comparison, W/kg doesn't matter unless we're racing or willy waving.
Plus it would unfairly prejudice the heavier set amongst us... 🙄
Not really, the chat has been refreshingly free of anh sort of comparison, W/kg doesn’t matter unless we’re racing or willy waving.
Absolutely this, but for those, like me, who are new to all this, it helps get a handle on what's 'about the norm'.
Training Peaks was giving me 159, while RGT was 252 (TP gave 232 yesterday, so will see what the next FTP test gives). Gave some very alarming TSS weekly figures til it clicked what was happening. I was very sniffy about all this indoor stuff, but now realise it's very time efficient and safe. I can do it in a home school lunch hour and when I go and ride outside, I don't need to fret about training which can spoil a spin out. I may even try a HRM again, as 2 hour Z2/3 sessions aren't ideal indoors (though I got to watch Donnie Brascoe while riding the other day - "Forget about it").
On the 'we're all different' line, I seem to be able to sit near to FTP/SS sort of power for quite a while, but the max power intervals seem a real struggle. I've always been able to chug along for many hours, but feel I lack speed/stamina.
@13thfloormonk - you've (from another thread) sowed an idea of touring Norway in my head and it won't go away.
Absolutely this, but for those, like me, who are new to all this, it helps get a handle on what’s ‘about the norm’.
Yeah fair enough, don't know why I objected really. 3.1W/kg here, maybe 3.2W/kg on a good day.
Based on some of the workouts I've been completing I feel FTP might actually be higher (don't we all...) and that I might test higher using a different test, but since I'm training for long climbs I might as well stick with the test I'm using.
Interesting take-away from the heart-rate article above was that Sufferfest use 100% of your 20 minute power as FTP assuming you've done the 5 minute max effort beforehand, suggesting that the usual 95% correction is to take account of the anaerobic contribution.
Will adapt my 'target' accordingly next time I do a test...
since I’m training for long climbs I might as well stick with the test I’m using.
When you say long climbs what do you mean? And what is specific about your training for them? Muscular endurance stuff, longer ss, lower cadence? Just interested as that's where I need work for my trips, along with significant weightloss.
Any thoughts on Sufferfest on here?
I just got a KickR Core and think it seems pretty good.
Tried Zwift for a couple of goes but didn't like the HCI of it.
I'm not into road riding or mega-data analysis - just have a 'I'm I better than I was' mindset.
Did the 4DP and had a couple of rides thereafter and the process seems improved as a result of this. Choosing ERG or level is the next conundrum BUT I found they have a chat of when to use what that covers this.......
When you say long climbs what do you mean?
Basically sportive riding, long gravel days and (increasingly unlikely) the Raid Pyrenees.
It seems I am more biased towards shorter harder efforts, e.g. I do threshold/over-under/HIIT workouts based on an FTP higher than I can actually maintain for 20 minutes, I can manage those workouts fine. I think this means I have a higher anaerobic fitness.
Longer climbs or just general endurance I think requires better aerobic fitness, e.g. below threshold, e.g. sweetspot workouts etc.
I reckon the '5 min max effort followed by 20 minute steady' FTP test gives me a better indication of my aerobic fitness, so this is the more appropriate FTP to base my aerobic workouts on.
Going to take an easy week this week anyway, back is getting a bit cranky, then I'll try another FTP test but using a slightly lower target wattage as a guide.
Ok,just on as I type with 95 mins with 5 x 10 mins high tempo/low SS within upper z2 overall which I'm doing towards similar ends.
Yeh,take care of that back👍
@jameso – I think your question about HR vs Wattage may have answers here:> https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/training/how-to-build-your-cycling-endurance-407292
Thanks. I have an XL sheet that has some of my HR threshold numbers and levels worked out so it's useful when an article lists HR and W levels. Read it and had a look at the % mentioned in the article as levels via the sheet. Article mentions 'sweet spot' as % of threshold HR, works out at HR Z3 which I thought was supposed to be neither easy nor hard enough to do much good. What do I know -
“We can ride at tempo [sometimes called sweetspot] – which is 76 to 90 per cent of your threshold power, or 75 to 85 per cent of threshold heart rate. Riding there will also improve endurance." -it's quoting Hunter Allen who seems to be a credible guy.
Sweet spot is a bit higher than that - 88-94% of FTP:
Image from this page - https://www.coachcox.co.uk/2012/04/12/attempting-to-tame-training-zones/
Hmmm.... Had this discussion with my mate this afty who moaned that my tempo workout he joined was SS! I said it was the top end of tempo. Strava pegged it as tempo hr wise too 😂
What I found as a concensus with power is Tempo is 75-87% of FTP, the lower chunk of Z3. SS is 88-95% of FTP, the top bit of Z3.
HR wise with those powers my upper SS hr is around 85% max hr. My Tempo/SS boundary is about 82% max hr. And lower Tempo is about 76% max hr.
Sweet spot is a bit higher than that – 88-94% of FTP:
The article boxelder linked to talks about threshold power and HR though, rather than functional threshold - I thought FT HR was 4-5% under threshold HR (aka lacate threshold). Or at least that's what I got from Joe Friel's blog though I may have misunderstood it. If it is, it puts it pretty close to 88-94% of FTP.
Training's got too complicated : ) good job I peaked after one proper race then retired eh.
Edit, now I can see the image you posted. That's useful. Sweetspot as 85% max HR - I can't hold that level for 60 mins. 20-30, yes and it'd be hard work, as I think I was told pages back.
From what I can remember reading lactate threshold can roughly corelates with FTP, but is quite variable in relation to it and really can only be assessed through blood testing?
Either way I guess as posted earlier by Whitestone (?) The precise details are probably wasted on most of us (certainly me) when other training factors are more important.
Still it's good to have a rough idea of where you're pegging your efforts at for the desired goal of your workout.
Sweetspot as 85% max HR – I can’t hold that level for 60 mins. 20-30, yes and it’d be hard work, as I think I was told pages back.
But if FTP is ~90% max hr, you're 'supposed' to be able to hold that for 60mins. So 60mins at 85% 'should' be doable.
I've no plans to do a full hour of power to see if my FTP is really my FTP via other means, and what the hr is 😂
TBH it's a bit of a moot point - these "zones" aren't on at X% and off at X.01%, the benefits start several percent below the lower limit and end several percent above the upper limit. The graphs should really show a set of ramps.
There's a thread on the TR forums about what constitutes a VO2max interval with one individual being adamant that you have to hold your HR at 90% or more for the entire workout including the recovery intervals!
I find there's a narrow range of HR values in going from sweet spot to VO2max so it's quite hard to use that to work in the right zone. Upper end of SS is 94% FTP, that's 86% MHR for me. top end of VO2max is 120% FTP that's 90% MHR, just 4% to cover 26% variation in power.
As a counter to all these percentages, can I add for anyone bamboozled by it all that this year I just did bikepacking weekends or long days out, with whole weeks off before and after. In September, with the prospect of a couple of cyclocross races, I spent a few evenings ragging around the woods with my mates.
Was flying come race day.
^ Yeah, I think pretty much the fittest I generally get is from a couple of blocks of 3-4 hard, long days, rest, then flying around the woods for fun on the SS. A proper plan over 6 mths does more but it's a lot of work for the gains.
But if FTP is ~90% max hr, you’re ‘supposed’ to be able to hold that for 60mins. So 60mins at 85% ‘should’ be doable.
Maybe a well trained rider could. I can (or could) keep a threshold HR for the 30(20) min test when I've had a bit of time getting used to the turbo sessions and my LTHR is approx 90% max. I don't know my real max, but my LTHR and the max I've ever hit a couple of times when I've tried a long time ago all line up. But 1hr at that level? No chance. FT HR is 4-5% below LT HR, and that would still be a horrible level to stay at for a full hour. Thankfully I've never wanted to train for the Hour or 25 mile TTs.
That table says sweetspot is ~85% of my max, at that HR it would be a hard 20-30 mins but doable a couple of times in a training ride.
I've done a few 25TTs on our 'sporting' course. No idea what my hr was and don't have a PM .My fastest on a road bike with clip-on bars was somewhere like 71mins (I'm no good!) and I cramped up so badly when I finished I struggled to get home, it was horrendous, I was in agony. I haven't done one since 😂
I keep rewarding my efforts with beer and chocolate. That's alright isn't it.......
If I was to get a HRM for riding out in the real world, is there a go to mid price option? Wahoo Tickr? Not bothered about data saving etc.
My hrm is just a CooSpo one. Ant+ and bluetooth works with zwift, strava and wahoo apps no issue for me. Look to be about £30, but pretty sure I only paid about £20.
Wahoo Tickr?
I've been using one for around 4 years. It's been fine. Happy with it.
I use a Wahoo Tickr armband. I really like it and it's much less hassle than a chest strap when you inevitably forget to put it on before getting all dressed up to go out.
On the previous page I posted a Dylan Johnson video where he lambasted Zwift's workouts. He's just posted one about TrainerRoad's plans:
Good vid whitestone - I have wondered what sort of absolute beast you would need to be to complete a high volume power build on TR. Think he's right that the intensity does seem excessive across the board on that platform.
They (TR) could actually rebut that pretty hard depending on what their use data looks like. Say the vast majority of people starting a high volume power plan do in fact complete it then that doesn't really speak to burn out and overreach. If the majority of people don't get past three weeks, on the other hand...
I had a look at the high volume plans at the start of lockdown and just couldn’t see that I would have the time to complete them even during lockdown! They don’t really account for having a job and family!
Platform that's built around indoor trainer workouts advocating for training that's suited to indoor training shocker.
Haha, I love Dylan Johnson "I like the Trainerroad podcasts... ...every so often I even learn something new" 😂
@Garry_lager - TR do state that most people would be best served by following the Low Volume plans, but these of course are effectively three intense sessions per week. They do monitor completion rates, the plans have changed over the years because of this.
I do the LV plans and then add endurance rides at the weekend thus making them essentially a polarised/pyramidal plan which is sort of what he advocates anyway. Yesterday I was out for 5hrs+ but it was Z2 power at most (my HR stayed in Z1 the entire time!).
I think there's a mixture of promotion and ego involved in all these plans (TR and elsewhere) - why spend money on a turbo trainer and on a training programme/plan if it isn't stressing you? Sitting at 75% of FTP for a couple of hours probably doesn't sell well.
@robbo1234biking - when I started on TR I looked at the various levels and just recoiled at the HV plans, they'd cripple me! At 61 I can do the work but need the recovery as well.
Looking at analysis of each of my week's training over the last six months the majority of them are classed as "Base"* with most of the rest being "Polarised" or "Pyramidal", only a couple in the last year have been "Threshold". So even when following a supposed "threshold" plan it rarely turns out that way.
* These are based on the relative proportions of each zone in the three zone model as mentioned in the video so equating with the 7 zone mode: Z1 = Z1 + Z2, Z2 = Z3 + Z4, Z3 = Z5+
Do any of you also have best 60min power way below 95% of your best 20mins?
This is something I've always experienced bar a single weekend while using power meters since Jan 2018, but besides the recenet STW MTB Series, I do 40min+ efforts quite infrequently. Away from the turbo, I usually like to chase my time/power numbers up the local cat 3/4 hills, which typically take approx 5-17mins to climb at full gas on a good day.
In the last six weeks, my best 20/60mins have both been in STW races, 305/264W respectively... ~86.5%, which is hell of a gap from 95%. In theory I should be capable of ~291W for an hour, but 273W is my best from Jan 2020, before this post-Covid fatigue hell began.
Do any of you also have best 60min power way below 95% of your best 20mins?
Errrr, wibble, dunno.
I've never tested it but FTP isn't absolutely your "hour power" most say it's anywhere from 45-75mins depending on how well trained at doing such efforts you are.
Irrelevant side note; Dylan seems to like using clips from Francis Cade (UK youtuber and rider) videos in his videos. Noticed them in a few.
In the last six weeks, my best 20/60mins have both been in STW races, 305/264W respectively…
I've been puzzling over this sort of stuff and think it is something to do with your anaerobic capacity, which will still kick in during a 20 minute effort but would be depleted before a 60 minute effort is over?
This is why the procedure for a 20 minute FTP test involves a 5 minute max effort to 'drain' the anaerobic contribution.
I noticed Trainerrroad or Trainingpeaks saying that because of this, they'll actually take 100% of the 20 minute power as being FTP if you have already drained the anaerobic tank with the 5 minute effort before hand.
If your anaerobic capacity was higher then perhaps it makes sense that your 60 minute power is lower than 95% of your 20 minute power.
On which note - how is everyone testing their FTP? Ramp tests? 20 minute test? 20 minute with 5 minute max effort first?
I’ll have to watch that Dylan video later. I did the high volume sweet spot plan and finished it at the end of Jan. It gets really tough at the end but I did see some decent gains going into the Short Power Build phase.
The first two weeks of the high volume short power build plan were pretty horrendous. Literally just scraping through the last intervals and then wondering how on earth I was gonna recover before the next intense workout. I came down with a really bad cold following week 2 and had a good 5 days off the bike completely. I’m just starting to get my legs moving again before thinking about picking up the plan again.
May go for something less intense given I can normally squeeze 15 hours a week or so in.
How did I miss this thread!!!
This is so what I've been looking for (although with a little bit of information overload).
Last year was the first year I actually had a plan (loose as it may have been) and I definitely saw a performance increase from myself. I usually just ride as often as available and as hard as I can sustain for the time I have.
So, this year I want to push on from where I left off last year BUT I've been struggling with motivation this year. So have only started putting in a concerted effort from February, this puts me at least a month behind others on here. I'm not going to let that worry me too much though.
It'll take me a while to get through all this but thanks to Whitestone for starting this thread.
Happy training to you all.
Any thoughts on Sufferfest on here?
I just got a KickR Core and think it seems pretty good.
Tried Zwift for a couple of goes but didn’t like the HCI of it.
I’m not into road riding or mega-data analysis – just have a ‘I’m I better than I was’ mindset.
Did the 4DP and had a couple of rides thereafter and the process seems improved as a result of this. Choosing ERG or level is the next conundrum BUT I found they have a chat of when to use what that covers this…….
Personally I prefer Sufferfest to Zwift - I'm not that bothered about racing, and I found the whole Zwift thing slightly "stupid" with its silly tron wheels, underwater tunnels and what have you, while supposedly pretending to simulate real life? Sufferfest also fits into my lifestyle nicely, with lots of shorter workouts that I can do whenever I want.
That said, I'm not 100% convinced it's a great fit for a structured workout plan - they do offer plans, but I get the feeling they're not a perfect match. The idea of recovery days etc., for example, don't really fit in with the idea of "suffering"...
I’ve been on a TR plan for few months - via plan builder. I generate a low or mid vol plan and generally use it as a rough guide - I’ll do one or two intensity sessions from it each week (Tues/ Thurs). The rest of the time I substitute outdoor rides - which are low intensity or a Zwift session that can be anything from tempo for 90 mins to 30 min crit to TTT. So in reality my training is probably more polarised than sweet spot. I’ve made some really big FTP gains recently. I have to say I think Dylan is right - too much intensity within the TR plans. If you listen to their podcasts they do champion the one or two hard session per week approach, just strange that the plans seem harder than this.
I think I also thrive more with one or two TR workouts per week max, and the rest of the time having a more social focus.
As I've already pointed out I'm new to structured training and smart trainers- I don't race, but want to get faster without feeling I should be trying to train every time I go out riding. I'm following an 8wk FTP builder plan from Training Peaks, via RGTcycling. The plan appears to be a polarised/pyramidal blend sort of deal. The week ahead will be week 3 and looks quite heavy, with 3 HIIT sessions and a Tempo/SS, but also 2 rest days and a Z1 easy ride:
Sunday - 2hr Zone 1 Endurance or social ride (got the first hour and a bit in outside today before the gale driven rain set in)
Monday - Rest
Tuesday - Pyramid intervals: 4x15 secs max, 3x1 min 125%, 2x5min 105%. 20 min warm up/10 cool down.
Wednesday - criss cross session - builds up in 2 min blocks from under to over FTP then gradually back down again.
Thursday - Zone 3 + FTP (tempo and S Spot?): 30 mins at 85% and 15 mins at 95%. Two lots with 5 min spin in the middle, giving 2 hr total.
Friday - rest
Saturday - Threshold efforts - intervals building from 1 x 5 mins at 98% to 6x 1 min at 120%. 70 mins total with WU and CD.
Sunday - 2 hr Zone 1/social spin.
The Thursday and Sunday sessions can easily become outdoor rides without any need for power meter or HRM. I've ordered a HRM though to get a better feel for zones etc. For anyone just trying out structured training this seems to give a lot of variety and has so far felt quite low stress/volume (which means it's probably about right - certainly not overtraining).
I suspect, once the weather improves and home schooling ends, I'll end up doing lots of Z1 riding outdoors, with shorter Z3 sessions once or twice a week indoors (so Polarised as the video above) and then go back to more variety in winter.
How steep are the hills you're caning @n0b0dy0ftheg0at in a 20 min effort? I've always found a big effort on a steepish pitch would give me v flattering power numbers and wouldn't be something to base training off of. Local to me the Manchester - Holmfirth rd (called Isle of Skye locally) is good for some shock and awe on the power meter.
It must be very biomechanically different in terms of fast / slow twitch if you compare that to riding a flat 25mile TT, say. That is about continual fast inputs to maintain the bike speed around 25mph+, whereas climbing just feels night and day different with a slow twitch grind.
This doesn't really answer your question as to why 20 / 60 is divergent for you on zwift, but you would rarely see a best 60 min in a zwift race as that would mean riding with no tactics at all. If you think 290 should be right for your ftp then rest up and hit the Alp full monty at that power and see what happens - it's quite easy to pace with the hairpinned sections giving an avg power for each one.
I’ve just ditched TR in favour of Zwift. TR is I think fantastic if you are really motivated, but you need to have a focus and with racing at any point this year seemingly dubious, I couldn’t see the point. I am loving Zwift at the moment, just going for the race yourself fit adage. Take today, hungover with little time, jumped on a twenty minute crit race and my legs are caning now!
I failed my TR workout today - too hard. Challenging my aerobic fitness. An hour 20 mins just under ftp (320-350w)
Looking at the week ahead there are so many invitations to do group rides and some races on Zwift and RGT that it seems like a better option to me than grinding out a TR plan.
My aim is to go sub 10 hour at the Dirty Reiver in Sept. but my strengths are short Crits.
TBH, 80mins at around FTP probably isn't the best training for Dirty Reiver, there are some long draggy climbs but being able to "plod" along at 75-80% of FTP will do you more good. I'd work out what RPE something like that is for you and head out for long rides at that intensity and augment them with a couple of short sharp HIIT interval sessions on the trainer to keep the top end.
That’s exactly what I’ve been doing and it seems to be working reasonably well. I’m getting stronger on virtual group rides and TTS. Just hope my trainer is accurate and not flattering me. I’m 86 kg so maintaining power over the event will help with the hills but I will not be able to race it, steady state and qualified efforts at the right time is what I’m aiming for.
@Garry_Lager The hills in Hampshire and West Sussex are often incredibly variable in gradient and that certainly applies to the longest and biggest climb variants that go up Bell Hill just north of Petersfield to the summit on Warren Lane (~3 miles, ~550+ foot climbing).
My memory failed me on it taking nearly 20mins to get up that climb full tilt, it was just over 15mins at an average of 240W, any FTP estimates I've obtained outdoors have been over much flatter terrain away from the hills with the exception of managing 300W for 20mins up Cheddar Gorge to Priddy Hill last September.
A vast majority of my estimates have come off 20min+ turbo sessions, whether that be races; TTs; freerides up virtual mountains. But these days especially, once an event goes beyond ~30mins, I have to dial things back to not blow up.
@n0b0dy0ftheg0at - that is a lovely climb that, especially up through the woods past steep.