Might take me a while to tune into staring at graphs as opposed to pedalling like hell to bridge a gap or not get dropped in Zwift.
I run Zwift concurrently with TR, which lowers RPE. I don't race but can tick off routes and get badges while I'm training. A smart trainer means I can just let the turbo take care of resistance and just pedal along up Ventoux, or AddZ or Central Park...
Well the Ramp Test today went …
Not well 😧
Bailed at 16m30.
You did better than me, I only managed 15min of my 20min FTP test today, riding to an FTP only very slightly (9W) higher than I've been setting my training zones to ☹
I think it's telling that I can do short intervals at a relatively high intensity (compared to my FTP) but not long intervals e.g. 4x5 minute thresholds, I'm hoping this goes some way to explaining why I've never managed a full 20 minute test!
Also I was hungover today, but only very slightly 😉
Think I'll focus on longer interval workouts for the next 5-6 weeks then try again.
Can I just reiterate again the benefit of doing Zwift races in relation to ftp. It seems to help if it's people you actually know you are racing and you genuinely can't deal with them being smug having beat you. Zwift reckons I should increase my ftp by 23 watts after yesterday 😀 I am being conservative and only going with 15 as I may not be able to recreate this power in any other scenario...
Obviously that's psychology at work - male competitive instinct and all that. Power outputs in races, particularly criterium like races, is high, pretty much a HIIT workout but with the "recoveries" at threshold. The power profiles of race simulation workouts are just insane: 125-145% efforts separated by just 5s at 80% as "rest", similar on/off efforts then continuing for four minutes! That's from a cyclocross simulation BTW.
I don't think I'd have the mental fortitude to undertake such a workout "on my own" so Zwift, etc. would be more than useful in that scenario.
@13thfloormonk - I use intervals.icu, it pulls workouts/rides from Strava and Garmin Connect and is a sort of poor man's WKO. (Currently free though he has started asking for donations as he's moved to new servers and is shifting more data) One of the analysis screens shows your power curve along with idealised curves and age adjusted ones so you can see where you need to work on your weak points.
Supra-threshold intervals are hard, particularly those just above FTP since the assumption is that you should be able to do reasonably long durations.
I've been doing more investigation in to VO2max workouts - this blog is interesting https://sparecycles.blog/ - I think my FTP is a higher percentage of my MAP/VO2max level than the "standard" 75% so I don't have the room to grow. Thus I need to raise VO2max before my FTP can rise. Perhaps another way of saying I've plateaued. The only problem is that doing these workouts causes the furniture in the house to shake! I need to do them when my wife's not in.
I don’t think I’d have the mental fortitude to undertake such a workout “on my own” so Zwift, etc. would be more than useful in that scenario.
Exactly this for me. My default assumption is that Zwift races are sort of 'junk' training, e.g. not specific enough, or too hard and requiring too much recovery, compared with structured intervals.
But on the flipside, if I could be bothered buying all the gear and setting up a Zwift cave, I could also imagine I'd make big gains quickly if I limited myself to two races a week, I think my ability to push myself in a non-competitive scenario is pretty feeble...
I think my FTP is a higher percentage of my MAP/VO2max level than the “standard” 75% so I don’t have the room to grow.
I think I might be the opposite which surprises me, I never thought I was a 'short burst' type. I wonder if that reflects my physiology which I *think* is relatively heavy for not very much body fat.
I was doing 30/15s at 130% of my presumed FTP of 263W, but struggle to do 103% for 10 minutes. Looking at it like that perhaps it's no surprise, but that 103% was hoping/assuming I'd made some improvement on my FTP, so in reality would have been lower still.
Hopefully this means room to grow! Time for a month or more of longer intervals, which will segue quite nicely into getting back outside to take the training back on to real hills come March hopefully.
I think it’s telling that I can do short intervals at a relatively high intensity (compared to my FTP) but not long intervals e.g. 4×5 minute thresholds, I’m hoping this goes some way to explaining why I’ve never managed a full 20 minute test!
Does it not just mean that you've overestimated your FTP and that you need to re-test at a pace at which you CAN complete the full 20 mins?
Does it not just mean that you’ve overestimated your FTP and that you need to re-test at a pace at which you CAN complete the full 20 mins?
Yep, pretty much 😎
On the flipside though, my imagined/never actually proven FTP seems to work to set training zones (e.g. I can 'just' complete workouts based around this FTP) so I'll keep using it for now.
I'm on the lookout for some pointers please. I'm hoping to race some enduros this year but struggling for bike time at the moment so just bought a turbo.
I've set myself a goal date of Ard Dales (fingers crossed), so gives me 15 weeks from 1 Feb to lose a few KG and get myself ready to battle for mid pack.
I've always gone to the gym and rode lots of MTB, but never "trained" so a bit lost as to where to begin. Zwift's beginner FTP builder is 4 or 5 hour long sessions a week which is more than I would like.
Fortunately I've got enough weights to stay on top of the gym stuff at home. I had planned on doing something along the lines of the below, leaving me enough time to add in more MTB when conditions allow:
- 2 turbo
- 2 gym sessions
- 1 MTB ride
What sort of turbo sessions should I be looking at?
The TR gravity plan has some intense intervals, very demanding, suggesting that top end work is definitely the order of the day for enduro. But they are sitting in a bigger structure where you build up the strength to take that training load, don't think it would be wise just wading in to VO2 max stuff straight away.
You can do some stuff on that training schedule though, definitely. If you've never trained I'd prob just get on a zwift program and just choose the two you want to do that week. The programs are kinda bad if you're experienced but starting out anything vaguely sensible will give you gains.
Pretty much any training will show improvements but you don't say what your current strengths/weaknesses are.
Not sure what you class as "long", most workouts from whatever programme tend to be in the 60-90minute range as you'll need warm up and cool down periods to bookmark the actual work. There's also a minimum effective dose, basically you need to do a minimum to see improvements, again without knowing your current status it's hard to say what that it.
Protocols like HIIT give quick gains but are difficult to sustain in the long term - they often feature as a short block in longer term plans to shake things up.
I'd drop one gym session, you probably just want to be in maintenance mode this close to the event, trying to push (sorry) things will potentially impact other parts of your training. Turbo wise you've got three general classes: endurance; threshold & anaerobic. So it really depends on what you want to work on. If you are good with sprints, go more for threshold and endurance, if you are good with endurance (i.e. long steady plodding) then look at the other two, etc
Fortunately I’ve got enough weights to stay on top of the gym stuff at home. I had planned on doing something along the lines of the below, leaving me enough time to add in more MTB when conditions allow:
The Dylan Johnson videos are a good starter, the 'Fit in 10hrs a week' video helped me reorganise my training week into:
Monday - off
Tuesday - hardest turbo session, I'm currently doing 3x10min threshold
Wednesday - Tempo or Sweetspot session, this could be done outdoors I guess if you can find 2x20minute sections (I've got two long gravel sections that fit the bill quite nicely although they are rolling so will need some attention to stay in zone)
Thursday - 2hr endurance e.g. spinning the legs, easy.
Friday - off
Saturday - another hard session, not as hard as Tuesday, make this another turbo session? I'm debating making this an over-under session or another threshold session.
Sunday - as long an 'easy' ride as you can, 4-5hrs.
I guess maybe you could make Wednesday a gym day?
Those Dylan Johnson videos really are helpful. I do hope he's not talking about of his **** as I've partly structured my week from his stuff.
The DJ videos are reasonably uncontentious - he does a decent job of analysing the various and often conflicting studies about various training protocols. Probably the polarised vs Sweet Spot video has raised most chat.
He works for or is associated with CTS which is the coaching company set up by Chris Carmichael who wrote The Time Crunched Cyclist. I'm assuming he also gets some feedback from there as well so his analysis won't be too far off.
I'm still struggling to settle on a 'default' training week that doesn't involve training 7 days a week.
If I was just looking at biking, or even just biking and running. And definitely not looking at training for a 300km solo MTB ITT along with Fell Running, Swimming and Rowing I suspect its be pretty simple.
How daft would it be to be active 7 days a week (assuming fresh and not ****ed) but with Monday and Friday as no legs days. So Mon/Fri would be either weights/Swimming/fixed seat rowing. Those options can all be taken at active recovery effort levels if needed, the rowing can be as hard or as easy as I want, it's not the skinny max effort style you see in the Olympics that's for sure. Weights can also be adjusted if needed to focus on control and range/stretching as suitable for condition.
Edit, Trainerroad so far is looking like money well spent.
Piemonster, two no legs days sounds like a sensible plan, but don't forget it's still overall stress on your CNS that need recovery, not just the actual directly involved muscles.
I guess many triathletes do two a days of different modalities to enable proper 'off days' and getting the 'full body' done in one day of stress?
Also if you're doing such an overall volume with different modes of exercise, with work, family, life etc you'll need to make a fair bit of that easy volume maybe in a polarised way for the same reason. And sleep and rest as training priority too.
I have various health limits so that even an hour or two walking on my off the bike days is enough for them not to be off days for my legs.
Oh, meant to say that hard day, medium day, easy day, off day, cycle is something I was looking at the other day for when I finish my current zwift gravel grinder plan and seems to be a cycle that the Fascat coaching plans work with. So threshold, tempo, z2 then off, but for me probably sweet spot, tempo, z2.
What is the research/thoughts on active recovery currently?
I am going through a fairly intense period of training (more general fitness than cycling specific) which I have scheduled 2 days a week as rest/active recovery, today being 1 of those days. I have done a couple of decent gym sessions and a sweet spot ride on the trainer in the past 3 days and can feel it in my legs, and also feel a bit depleted generally from it.
I feel like my muscles would benefit from a gentle spin to flush some blood through, but my "health battery" (I can't think of better terminology at the moment) could do with a full rest and recharge.
Seems people either feel benefit from active recovery, which is something like a 30mins below 50% ftp spin, or just need rest with it being a very personal choice. From what I remember it's a case of it you feel it helps great, if not rest.
Light stretching and mobilisation is always good.
What is the research/thoughts on active recovery currently?
Personally I love it, but it's surprisingly hard to do in practice - outdoors it's very easy for your recovery ride to turn into junk miles with lots of lowish pace miles, and a few higher intensity bits when you get bored. The lowish speed miles aren't really quite low enough, and the harder bits are just enough to tire you without any real training benefit.
If you are planning on doing some it's a lot easier on a turbo in ERG mode where you can guarantee the pace. Aim for 40-45% FTP, 90rpm cadence, and spin along to Spotify or Netflix for 45-60min.
Bugger, very succesful first attempt at some Dylan Johnson FTP type intervals on Tuesday (aimed for 3x8min @ FTP and managed 8,9,10 minute at just over FTP) so was happy with that.
Next day I did 2x20 minute tempo/sweetspot outdoors, although it was probably more like 2x25min which was nice (basically trying to use the longest climbs in my area which by necessity end up very gradual).
But for the last three days I've been limping around with a spasmed/seized up lower back. Am trying to figure out how I've done this, or if it's just a shift to longer sustained efforts that has somehow brought it on.
Ironically, I've been messing about with 'spin' style out of the saddle efforts where you take most of the weight off your hands and almost 'hover' over the bars whilst pedalling. I'm doing it as a workout for my glutes but am guessing it puts a lot of strain on low back, whether you feel it or not.
I'd feel worse for missing a couple of workouts while it eases, but it's looking increasingly like the event we're training for won't happen anyway, so.. meh I guess.
High cadence standing pedaling? What's the rationale behind that?
Not so much the cadence but the position, no weight on bars mean you have to push your weight back and use your glutes and core more, which I think is why they do it in spin classes as a sort of bonus core workout. It's also a useful technique whilst trying stand and pedal on rollers!
Don't try it on fixed unless you are a quick spinner!
Cheers 13thfloormonk, I understand the benefit of standing pedaling the way you describe, it was more the reason for high cadence , though I guess high cadence makes it harder to balance. I'm turbo bound in a bit so might see what I can manage, though I'm not sure I want to risk breaking anything 😂
The Dylan Johnson videos are good. I've watched a few as well as plenty of videos and podcasts from various DH and enduro coaches. I want to keep the gym days in, I think they're just as important as the turbo sessions for the type of riding I do.
they are sitting in a bigger structure where you build up the strength to take that training load, don’t think it would be wise just wading in to VO2 max stuff straight away.
This makes sense - I've opted for the Zwift Beginner FTP builder. I'll follow that as best as I can for 6 weeks.
I did the first 'Strength' session last night. Newbie question - do the stars on Zwift matter? On most intervals I wasn't getting the star which I presume means indicates successfully completing the interval. My assumption is on the sprints I was going too hard, and then taking too long to find correct power and cadence on the recovery?
Watched a Dylan Johnson vid on 'common mistakes everyone makes'.
Turns out I'm extremely guilty of doing recovery rides wrong, I'll sit at the top of zone 2 thinking I'm getting the most benefit out of an easy ride by going as hard as is technically allowed, oops 😳
Tried to stay well within Zone 1 today, but since I was desperate to get outdoors it meant staying in zone 1 whilst wrapped in waterproofs and winter gear and chewing through a headwind. Needless to say the average speed was closer to one of my weekend gravel rides than a road bike ride 😁
@mark88 No star means you were too far off the target power for the whole interval, so sounds like what you say - big sprint followed by an uneven effort. What turbo do you have, as erg mode will make this issue go away? It is superb for big flat intervals, although I'm less keen on it myself for anything with a big sprint peak.
I banked a couple of weeks sweetspot but have come juddering to a halt - lungs not happy on harder efforts, feel inflamed. Taken it completely easy for a week and will slowly work my way back up.
Had something similar before Christmas and was given a blue inhaler to try - didn't feel like it did anything. Anyone have asthma here - how many toots do you typically give it? I was only doing one or two, but maybe a Froome-like massive bong hit is the order of the day?
I'd assume that the star means you were within a percentage of the target power - it's nigh on impossible to actually pedal at exactly the target power with no deviation whatsoever. It might be that it's average power across the interval or staying within a band. You probably need to analyse "successful" and "other" interval data in a suitable program/web site to determine what is being rewarded.
Generally if you are within a percentage point or two of the target you'll be fine, i.e. if the interval asks for 120% and you average 118% then there's little difference in the actual training effect. It's a bit like going to the shops in a Zafira as opposed to a Ferrari, you'll still get there, just not as quickly. Supposedly VO2max is 120% above FTP but for some people it may be 115% and for some it may be 125% so there's a bit of work needed on your behalf to find the best value.
Rest intervals are usually in the 40-50% range but it doesn't really matter what the actual effort is, it's just something for you to get your breath back so if pedalling at 80rpm means you are at 45% rather than 40% it's no big deal.
You don't say (or it's in an older post) what sort of turbo you are using. I'm on an old dumb wheel-on turbo and coming off hard efforts into a rest interval usually means dropping from big to small chainring and there's a moment of zero power as my pedalling takes a moment or two to actually catch up with the inertia of the rear wheel. Also with a dumb trainer it takes a bit of practice to find the correct resistance and gearing for a given workout and the levels within it.
Also with a dumb trainer it takes a bit of practice to find the correct resistance and gearing for a given workout and the levels within it.
My dumb turbo would basically have me on a singlespeed! I'm pretty much using the same rear sprocket for all intervals, it's just the cadence that changes slightly e.g. threshold intervals are 95-96RPM and sweetspot is 85-90RPM.
Changing gear just means silly cadences...
Eh? On a dumb turbo you'd have to spin twice as quickly for the sprints as for the rests unless you manually changed the resistance or the gearing.
The stars on Zwift workouts are a bit misleading. On a rest interval I would get one because I stand up for a few seconds which just causes a brief power spike in erg mode. As long as you feel you are getting the work done in the right sections then don't worry about the stars.
@garry_lager my wife has asthma and it gets worse over winter with the damp weather but it normally takes a couple of days of consistent inhaler use if she forgets for a bit to really have an impact.
@garry_lager Cold/damp weather makes my asthma far worse. Vicks rub on the chest before training (inspired by Patrick Viera) to minimise the impact of the cold helps. I have a purple inhalor I take twice daily which manages my asthma to the point I rarely need the blue one anymore.
I'm using a dumb turbo - I'm happy I followed the session pretty well, was just making sure I wasn't missing something with the stars. Obviously can't expect to jump from recovery to max sprint and back down again without any lag or discrepency.
Eh? On a dumb turbo you’d have to spin twice as quickly for the sprints as for the rests unless you manually changed the resistance or the gearing.
It's maybe a consequence of the workouts I'm doing right now which all hover close to threshold, I think the hardest intervals I've done recently are 130% FTP.
Also it's a fluid turbo so resistance increases with speed, I guess the power curve just means that a small change in cadence means a proportionally bigger change in resistance, so the difference between 90RPM and 95RPM is quite significant, even in the same gear.
I did most of my early zwift training on a dumb trainer, (now got a smart one). I found it easier to maintain consistent power on the dumb trainer than the smart one in erg mode. @13thfloormonk like you said - a gear change or two and a bit spinning is all you need.
Ah! Fluid turbos are massively non-linear in their response. I suppose you just get used to the peculiarities of whatever you are using. Mine's a magnetic resistance model and it's a matter of finding the right setting to allow the full power range of the workouts (roughly 30% - 200% FTP) such that I don't go off either end of the cassette.
Ah! Fluid turbos are massively non-linear in their response. I suppose you just get used to the peculiarities of whatever you are using.
Yeah, it would be fine but I'm just envisaging one hugely worn out and deformed sprocket meaning I need to bin a whole cassette... need to go research if you can buy just the middle cluster of an Ultegra cassette, I know you can for Dura-Ace
For zwift and the stars you need to keep reasonably withing the OK range of power. If you get too many increase the power or reduce the power notifications you'll not get the star, but it's pretty generous. Using erg mode I'll often swing one way or the other at the start or end of intervals due to cadence and its rare to lose one, but I have lost them for massively over powering on sprints when I didn't realise that their 'sprint' wasn't really calling for an all out sprint.
As others have said I'd not worry about it, just try to do what you're set as close as possible, but I know it can be annoying when you feel you did!
Hmm, learnt today that doing two intense VO2max workouts on successive days isn't a good idea! Yesterday's had an IF of 0.96, i.e. 96% of my hour power over an hour's workout, today's was 0.93. Legs were pretty cooked after the warmup efforts and couldn't hold the power during the first interval so no real point in continuing.
Still I got my best ever minute power 👍
Me too. I've just done 3 days in a row; 1st Day threshold intervals, 2nd day easy but 1 minute cadence spin ups, 3rd day (last night) Vo2 intervals.
I'm cooked and my achy breaky heart has been having little words with me. Day off today, and then largely a sweetspot hour tomorrow and 2.5hr Z2 Saturday with probably Sunday off.
Just contemplating a sunset dip in the sea to see if it aids the inflammation in my legs!
Just back from 10mins in the north atlantic and yep, my legs feel better, the seas substitutes on pain for another just now 😂 Jeez it was cold.
I'm following the Dylan Johnson 10hr routine so was 3x10 thresholds Tuesday, 3x15 sweetspots Wednesday, 1.5hr Z1 this morning.
Feeling good for it, but Saturday's over-under session will be the next test...
13thfloormonk thats pretty much what I was thinking to do once I've finished the zwift gravel grinder program.
Next week is a taper week before the 'final event', so I'll probably do that as my recovery week before start a programme like yours.
13thfloormonk thats pretty much what I was thinking to do once I’ve finished the zwift gravel grinder program.
It's working well so far and I can move most of the sessions outdoors as soon as the weather improves a little bit, sweetspots and recovery rides are easy to do outdoors and the Saturday session could easily be some hill repeats followed by and easy spin home (although have sold Satruday rides to my wife as 'just one hour' so suspect they'll end up on the turbo.
Sundays are always outdoor if I can help it, 3-4 hours 'easy' but allowing for dicking around etc. Ideal for exploring local gravel tracks and moving to longer road rides when weather improves.
Anyone watched Dylan's new video re gravel training?
Mon: off, Tue;1hr HIIT, wed: 1hr z2, thu:1hr z2, Fri off or accessory exercises, Sat; 2.45hr z2 with 4/5 high SS intervals, Sunday: z2
Had a look at his 3 gg plans too with 6-8,10-12, and 15-16 hour weeks including off the bike work. They have sample weeks you can check out.
Not feeling the urge to spend $80 on one, but the principles seem good and I contrast to TRs world of sweet spot for ever
I was just starting to watch it when you posted. Basically aim for a polarised or pyramidal intensity distribution along with some race specific work.
It's pretty much what I'm doing at the moment following TR's 3 session per week plans plus weekend rides, just checked - it's two months since I've done a sweet spot workout, pretty much everything since then has been endurance, threshold or VO2max and will continue like that to the end of the plan. My weekend rides are somewhat freeform but with some underlying aim such as keep HR within zone which usually means my power is steady within some power zone.
