I haven't read all the way through this thread yet (really should be doing coursework right now), but there's lots of interesting things to get stuck in to once I have the time!
Something some of you might be interested in:
I'll be recruiting for my final year project study fairly soon - the effect of differing work interval durations on training adaptations. It's essentially a comparison of two different HIIT based training interventions, both following a 2:1 work:recovery ratio (60:30 & 300:150). It's not passed the final ethics check yet, but the protocol won't be changing.
It's all being done remotely, so all you'd need is some way of training indoors with direct power measurement (PM and 'dumb' trainer, smart trainer w/ direct power measurement, wattbike etc.).
We're looking for people with a history of endurance activity (>5 hours per week ish), who aren't currently engaged in an interval training programme (>1 session per week). It's an 8 week intervention with testing either side (similar to the 4dp protocol mentioned above). You'll get fully personalised training zones, some training recommendations, and there'll be a prize draw for bike shop vouchers among those who finish the study.
If this sounds like something you'd be interested in, drop me a message on here and I'll send over the full participant information/recruitment documents once the ethics committee are finished with them.
The highest minute of average power in the Ramp Test is your MAP. Some programs adjust for sudden bursts that attempt to game the test. The assumption is then that your FTP is 75% of that final minute's average.
Thus the assumption is that most people have a 20% window between FTP & MAP. A high FTP means that window is smaller so you move from threshold to VO2max work sooner and vice versa. I think that's what they are getting at.
I've found that subsequent workouts after the Ramp Test are slightly easy by a couple of percent, i.e. my FTP is a high percentage of FTP, so I've upped my FTP maybe 2 or 3% by hand. This last round of workouts it's been a mix of workouts that genuinely feel hard in the way that others have described while others have felt easy(ish) so I've left it as is.
From that article it looks like I should focus on VO2max work. I noted in an earlier post that I was going to add a second VO2max each week so maybe my instinct was right, or at least backed up by current thinking.
Great workout this afternoon, possibly because of a perfectly timed pasta lunch three hours beforehand and mid-afternoon Jaffa cake binge... Even if Strava calorie count is correct I don't think I'll be in deficit today...
If you look closely you can see the last few intervals start creeping up in pace, but that also the recoveries are getting deeper and deeper lol. Happy I managed 3x10 though, I'm getting closer to the 'big boy' 3x13 workout that wattkg.com suggests.
Possible beasting in the real world on Sunday with a buddy who seems to be a full time Zwift time trialist, then an easy week before an FTP test on Friday/Saturday perhaps. It got me thinking though, how much can you game an FTP test? I was taught in the week prior to a CX race to largely take it easy, but then do some short hard intervals the day before to get some endorphins in the legs and to take the edge off the pain of racing. Could I do the same for an FTP test, effectively 'tapering' for it? 😀
You are supposed to do an FTP test fresh, so tapering for it isn't daft 🤪 You'll obviously not perform your best if your going to it fatigued and sore, save that for how you feel afterwards 😁
On the Sufferfest platform...
For a ramp test I don't need a full taper - just 1 or 2 days rest. For the full FTP test I do need a good weeks taper, including an 'openers' style workout the day before.
And why would you game an FTP test to make your workouts harder, shouldn't you be sandbagging it 🙂
I've a ramp test on Monday (or Tuesday, depending on external factors), for the last one I did the LSCT warmup - this is a short 20min test that works out your Heart Recovery Rate - but I've found I just need something as an opener before I do the test itself. I don't think it makes the test any easier just lets me perform it better - if that makes any sense. I wouldn't be doing a VO2max workout in the day or two beforehand though!
So long as you do the same preparation each time then it shouldn't really matter what your lead in is.
Slight digression but probably still relevant to the thread - does anyone run a softer saddle for turbo duties?
Bontrager did a Q&A on the Bikerumor site and suggested running a softer saddle due to how static the position is etc.
I actually run quite a racey saddle on the turbo just because it's my 'best' bike I use, but I'm actually wondering if it's the turbo sessions with a hard saddle that are giving me saddle issues (and also I typically wear my thinnest shorts since they're only short sessions).
Will swap in a Fabric Line instead of my Prologo Scratch, see if it makes a difference, I just hate swapping saddles since I thought I had my positions dialled!
On the Sufferfest platform…
For a ramp test I don’t need a full taper – just 1 or 2 days rest. For the full FTP test I do need a good weeks taper, including an ‘openers’ style workout the day before.
And why would you game an FTP test to make your workouts harder, shouldn’t you be sandbagging it
GVA says report to flogging station #3.
The route for the Greatest Grand Tour of a Mythical Nation in the World was announced yesterday. It's only 7 days this year as they're being considerate about fatigue and associated weakening of your immune systems. With lockdown I'm actually going to be able to do it at the right time this year (usually away with the family on half term break). Anyone else doing it?
First day is a killer (30 minute MAP workout + 1h46 of sweetspot at low cadence). Day 2 is a workout I've never managed to finish at 100% - an hour long MAP workout. It goes down(up)hill from there...
@13thfloormonk - it's something I do notice, 45mins or so into a workout and I need to start standing for a few seconds now and again just to relieve tension/soreness/niggles. Hadn't considered a softer saddle. You could get another seat post, fit it to that then you don't have to worry about messing the position of your current saddle - a bit of tape on the post just above the clamp and you can get the exact position back.
I'd pushed today's workout outdoors. Just got back from a 3hr fat bike ride in the snow that I thought was "hard", i.e. tempo and above, looked at my data: no power data on the fat bike but just 40 seconds in HR Z3! The outdoor workout actually called for 2hrs at RPE6 but conditions (8-10cm of soft snow on unfrozen and often boggy ground) meant I was probably RPE7 for much of the three hours.
@13thfloormonk – it’s something I do notice, 45mins or so into a workout and I need to start standing for a few seconds now and again just to relieve tension/soreness/niggles. Hadn’t considered a softer saddle. You could get another seat post, fit it to that then you don’t have to worry about messing the position of your current saddle – a bit of tape on the post just above the clamp and you can get the exact position back.
Yeah, I'm moaning about nothing really, the repositioning takes no time and at least I've had plenty of practice.
Will swap turbo saddle and outdoor saddles, need to test the turbo saddle outdoors anyway as it will be my big-week-in-the-Pyrenees saddle hopefully. If a Fabric Line isn't soft enough it's an excuse to try that Prologo Scratch AGX saddle I keep seeing, same design as the Prologo Scratch on the turbo bike but extra padding for 'gravel'.
Hours at Zone 2/3 boundary on your HR monitor will be the best predictor. Forget all those HIIT workouts everyone likes for time-crunched whatever. Sorry there are no shortcuts here (from a 12hr TT specialist).
Does cadence come into it at all or is it purely about staying in the right HR zone regardless of anything else?
Stick in the zone and self-select cadence.
Z2/3 (HR not power) boundary is a bit harder than most people think. I was out for a 2hr45min fat bike ride in the snow this morning and thought it was "hard" but looking at my HR data I had this:
Z1 - 2h21m
Z2 - 22m31s
Z3 - 56s
OK the Z1 will have included the descents and stops but I was borderline sweating (not good in -4C and below) so I wouldn't have been going any harder regardless.
Cheers @whitstone. 3 hour ride today with the whole thing in Z2 give or take. That included ploughing through some fairly deep snow on a gravel bike! I need to try a fat bike!
Hmm, that was interesting.
Went for a "socially distanced, local, my house is over there and much less than seven miles away officer" ride on the hardtail. i.e. a quick loop around the village. 18km with 480m of climbing. 28 mins was mid HRZ2 and above with 5 mins in Z4. Here's a grab of the HR distribution:
It actually felt pretty easy, I held back on the initial climb (it's 200m of altitude gain) only just getting into Z3 on the 20% at the end, then thought I'd push it.
My guess at the pace was tempo but with so much up and down it's not easy to keep the pressure on. Strava's guess at my average power was 226W which smack in the middle of my Z3 or tempo band. A couple of segments (generally rolling and of reasonable length) it guessed I was at threshold or thereabouts and that also felt a reasonable assessment in terms of RPE - that "I think I can hold this for a while" sort of feeling.
just about all my riding is currently on zwift. and for me that means racing or hanging on in group rides (im a tail ender cat B) or some sort of workout. So im always right on my limit and its all high intensity (which i really enjoy). no easy rides. 4 or 5 days a week. as a result im constantly tired. im guessing this is not sustainable. but whats the best way forward...an easy week every now and then, or more rest days or both?
Both!
A lot does depend on what you are used to but even pros on the grand tours don't do daily hammerfests and much of their time is spent at relatively low intensity in the peloton.
A couple of days a week of high intensity would be most people's sustainable limit, you'll need the other days to properly recover. An easy week, no intensity, every fourth week or so, maybe every third if you are older, but certainly no more than five hard weeks before a recovery week. Sometimes you'll see what is often referred to as "block periodisation" where entire weeks are high intensity workouts but these are short term blocks, rarely more than a couple of weeks.
That tiredness can descend into overtraining - my results aren't what they should be so I'll train more, etc. - which can take months or even years to recover from. Training is as much about recognising symptoms like that and pulling back from the edge. Here's a couple of TrainerRoad podcasts on the subject:
I'm sure that there's more both from TR and other coaches.
Oof, yikes, yeah that sounds like a recipe for burnout!
I'm not versed in more advanced training strategies, but as I understand it there are two common approaches, polarized or sweetspot.
Polarized would mean 20% of the week you go hard (e.g. races) and 80% super easy (recovery). I think if you already have a good base fitness you can omit some of the easy stuff, but still not do 4 or 5 back to back high intensity sessions.
'Sweetspot' basically means going as hard as you can without ever going 'high intensity' (e.g. sitting just below your FTP) and in theory you could do multiple sessions a week, but you would be nowhere near your limit so wouldn't be very competitive at races!
Well this is a handily timed thread. I’m just debating sweet spot versus polarised.
Someone is talking about training for 300km rides too which is exactly what I’m trying for.
Some good discussion in the comments too.
so is sweetspot a sort of quick hack for a long ride. Ie you dont have to sit for hours going easy, instead you hack it with a shorter sweetspot ride?
-edit - just watched those videos. interesting stuff. although i really dont fancy lots of zone 1 riding.
I've been following a big thread about the Dylan Johnson video, some passionate debate (think 26" vs 29" wheels on here but worse) plus there's some confusion about what the main proponents (like Seiler) actually said at the time and what they say now. AAAGH!
I think polarised works best when you have lots of time available to train whereas sweet spot is better for time crunched riders (i.e. The Time Crunched Cyclist by Carmichael).
It's rare/unusual for training plans to be entirely one or the other, usually the mix between low, medium and high intensities varies as you progress. For instance the phases in a typical TR plan go:
20% endurance, 60% SS, 20% threshold;
20% endurance, 20% SS, 40% threshold, 20% VO2max;
20% endurance, 20% SS, 40% threshold, 40% VO2max;
That's on 5 rides with 6-7hrs per week and for something like CX racing. The long distance plans might get to 20% VO2max near the end, most of the work is SS and threshold.
For long rides just being out on the bike for as long as possible is probably as good as anything, but not easy at the moment. Combine that with some higher intensity, maybe only as high as threshold which if you've never ridden at that level before for any length of time is surprisingly hard.
@simster - the point about sweet spot, which is more of a concept than an actual zone, is that it's tough enough to force adaptations in a short period but not tough enough that you couldn't do several back to back days of such workouts. It's sort of a short cut but ultimately the longer you take to build fitness the longer it sticks around which is why true HIIT is only really done in the weeks leading up to an event/race, you just can't maintain it indefinitely.
That's how I think of it, typically if time doesn't allow for 3hrs outdoors I'd try 3x15 or 3x20 sweetspot on the rollers.
@whitestone appreciated. those TR type plans better suit my schedule and head (id get bored doing lots of endurance).
The long distance plans might get to 20% VO2max near the end, most of the work is SS and threshold.
This is what I'm still hugely confused about, periodised vs. reverse periodised.
My event is 5 long days of climbing at the end of July. I've just finished a 4 week block of VO2 max and threshold intervals. Am thinking I'll do one more block to 'raise the ceiling' but then phase back in SS and threshold stuff, building volume and lowering intensity as the event approaches. Ideally I'll be mainly outdoors by March/April anyway.
Ultimately my goal when we can, and when I'm physically able again is audax type rides (2-300km, maybe even try a 400) and bike packing/tours of up to a week. Not racing at all.
Is there a 'prescription' that I can work around for building up for that largely on the turbo at present?
I know the rides themselves will be largely z2/3 of necessity ( other than some hills) but for turbo work am I best building up the number and length sets of SS intervals for more manageable time on there?
I'm generally ok doing up to 2hrs z2/3 on the turbo once or twice a week, and sometimes have done 3 sets of 2hours in a day on a miserable weekend with a short full break between them.
I need to avoid threshold and over work as a rule, but short blats I've done seem to be OK heart wise judging by bits I've done on the gravel grinder program on zwift, but they are only upto a few mins at threshold, or less at vo2 max powers.
With better weather and more idea how I'm coping I'll be doing at least one long extending ride outside on a weekend
Ta
I think Sweet Spot is probably ideal for balancing intensity and boredom. It's more about extending your Time To Exhaustion (TTE).
There's a Sweet Spot progression "plan"
* 9-minute warmup: 2min at 50%, 2min at 70%, 2min at 90%, 3min at 50%.
* 5-minute cooldown, starts at 50% and ramps down.
* 3-minute rests between work intervals.
* All work intervals are at 90% of FTP.
Start with 10min intervals, 2 or 3 depending on preference. Then build up the total time in zone and/or reduce rests so something like:
3 x 10
3 x 12
2 x 15
4 x 10
And so on.
You can also add a bit of variety by doing "hard starts" to the intervals so do the first 30seconds at 150% of FTP or thereabouts, then drop back to SS. These stress or flood the legs then you basically have to hang on! Think of them as short sharp climbs followed by a long drag.
Cheers 👍
I think Sweet Spot is probably ideal for balancing intensity and boredom.
How about if a chunk of your easy Polarised training efforts is done via a second activity?
e.g. Running*, in my case with the dog who is one of life’s long distance plodders
*in practice I mean jogging. The dog really does like to take in the experience at a relaxed pace.
This may be a little OT.
Anyone able to point me in the direction of resources discussing food strategies for self supported multi day riding with no access to re-supply. Days not weeks/months.
Ive a reasonable idea, but it can’t hurt to read up.
How about if a chunk of your easy Polarised training efforts is done via a second activity?
I kind of treat running (or like you, jogging/walk-running) as having no overlap with cycling, so I'll do it on recovery days/non-bike days.
By that logic, I wonder if gentle running will really create the same adaptations you're looking to achieve from gentle riding? Apparently lots of gentle riding will increase 'mitochondrial density'. I've not read up on the biology but I understand this is part of the mechanism which converts fuel into energy within the muscle, and thus increases power.
If running uses different muscles then I guess you wouldn't be achieving these adaptations in the muscles you want to use when cycling?
Anyone able to point me in the direction of resources discussing food strategies for self supported multi day riding with no access to re-supply. Days not weeks/months.
I think the answer is - go into massive calorie deficit, come home skinny and hawt 😎 Last time I saw my abs was at the end of 10 days self supported bikepacking with minimal re-supply...
@13thfloormonk - Rd 3 of Cyclocross national trophy 21 / 22 is set for Falkirk. Epic power build starts now?
Niiiiice!
Return from Pyrenees end of July all skinny and tanned, 1 month strength training, 6 weeks over-unders and 30/15s, 1 week taper, RESULTS 😀
Anyone able to point me in the direction of resources discussing food strategies for self supported multi day riding with no access to re-supply. Days not weeks/months.
Ive a reasonable idea, but it can’t hurt to read up.
The old military adage was 1kg/man/day for food and fuel. That was for sustained campaigns and for keeping fully nourished. If you were out for say five days between resupply then you could get away with less if you accepted some fat and possibly muscle loss.
Carbs and protein are roughly 4kcal/g, fat is 9kcal/g. With most "real" foods you will struggle to get over 5kcal/g so you can work out what sort of weight is required. Those figures assume the food is in edible state, i.e. not dehydrated - in that case you need to add the weight of the fuel to rehydrate. Some people go keto but like many things it has its negatives as well as its positives, i.e. it's good for long, slow distance, not so for short hard efforts.
Dehydrated foods: most will rehydrate with water at any temperature, it's just quicker and more convenient with boiling water. Some dried foods do require hot/boiling water to initiate the process. Worth experimenting with rehydrating overnight with "cold" water. That might mean having your main meal as breakfast rather than at night.
High fat foods: worth eating these at night since the body uses energy, and therefore warms up, to digest them. That means you feel warmer in your sleeping bag 👍
Dehydrated foods: most will rehydrate with water at any temperature, it’s just quicker and more convenient with boiling water.
Very true, I could stretch a small gas cannister much further once I realised you didn't need to keep the pasta water boiling once you had added the pasta, just return it to the boil then turn off heat. Pasta cooked in virtually the same amount of time but I saved about 8 minutes gas use each time.
Well the Ramp Test today went ...
Not well 😧
Bailed at 16m30. The break even point, i.e. the point at which you'd get your current FTP is 19m30. It's a 12% decrease! Not too sure why - maybe the walling I did on Monday was still in my legs.
Going to keep my current FTP as the workouts feel "right" in intensity.
I guess sometimes you just have a bad day, slept bad, are fatigued,fueled bad, got c19. But at least if your current work outs seem the right level for you that's something.
I did a Ramp Test on Tuesday, neither feeling fresh nor really in the mood (I’m not really used to ‘undertake training session x on day y’)
It also didn’t go well, I guess Trainerroad kinda assume some kind of freshness on day 1 of a training plan rather than being 3 months into progressively increased loads.
The other part being not having done that style of workout for some time I wasn’t really tuned in to the experience. I certainly shouldn’t have been fresh enough afterwards to take the dog out for an (admittedly easy paced) 90 minute run.
Might take me a while to tune into staring at graphs as opposed to pedalling like hell to bridge a gap or not get dropped in Zwift.
Cheers for the video link @YoKaiser
Some quite informative videos on that channel. I think with the volumes I’m aiming for and my experiences with running do lead me towards Polarised rather than Sweet Spot, I’ve tried a Sweet Spot with running in the past, although I didn’t realise at the time, and it always resulted in burning out. What did work was lots of easy runs with less frequent fast runs.
That said, I could just be going with what I know and not because it’s right. The total duration will be the same as those running days, and running breaks you down a lot quicker than cycling.
Cheers for the responses on the food front as well.
@piemonster I'm not a runner, knee replacement.saw to that, but from what I understand SS and running aren't a good thing at all.
SS is manageable for cycling as there isn't the shock and load on your body of faster running. It's just so much harder and unsustainable with running and you'll get injured or burn out sooner rather than later. Polarised is best for running.
With cycling you will get the overall fatigue if your volume and intensity is too high, but with running body parts will break. There's a recent thread on Slowtwitch triathlon forum about it. Probably older ones too.
Anyone able to point me in the direction of resources discussing food strategies for self supported multi day riding with no access to re-supply. Days not weeks/months
Not riding, but there's loads of info out there about nutrition for the Marathon des Sables, which is a multiday self-supported desert race. Here's a commercial link I found from a quick Google, there are loads more. It's got an interesting embedded Youtube video:
https://tentmeals.co.uk/blogs/news/food-for-the-marathon-des-sables
Piemonster - yes, the TR ramp test does assume you’re rested and fresh. I’d repeat it if I were you.
20 minute FTP test for me on Saturday. Although if my previous attempts are anything to go by I might need another couple of attempts to get the pacing right so I could be doing it again on Tuesday...
Am hoping to be well rested and am going to do it at 4pm which seems to be my 'golden hour' for training (based on one session last week which I smashed 🙂 ). Will also be better fueled than the first time I did it.
Could be a tough next training block if it all goes well! Although equally it could be a bit depressing if I don't see any gains...
On a side note, I've learned one of the drawbacks of using virtual power off a spreadsheet - bad maths! For my over-unders I was supposed to be doing 95% FTP for the unders, turns out I had been doing 105% FTP instead, turning it into a sort of 'over-over' session. Explains why I'd never really completed a session to my satisfaction...
I'm not very good with VO2max work so have decided to add an extra VO2max workout each week. I'm on that part of the plan where VO2max is ramping up anyway but I'd skipped earlier workouts as they landed during the Xmas/NY period.
There's a sub-group on TrainerRoad for VO2 work and there's a handful of custom workouts that one them has created and shared. Basically they are hard start intervals: hit 150% of FTP then over 90 seconds ramp down to 110% and then complete the interval at that level. There's a twist - each succeeding interval drops the maximum effort by 3-5% each time, so 145%, 140%, etc. down to 130% or so. The idea being that each interval is slightly easier to compensate for your increased fatigue.
The target for each workout is to spend as much time as possible above 90% of your MHR.
So tonight was my first attempt at one of these. I thought about doing the 4x5min (that's 90s of the descending ramp then 3m30s at 110%) but settled on 6x3min. Very much a learning curve, ended up with 3 1/2mins in the target HR zone so I need to work on several things, notably getting my HR to ramp up quicker. Even so I got some power PRs for times in the 60-90 seconds range.
https://www.trainerroad.com/app/career/bobw/rides/100606688-6x3-hard-start-vo2max
I'm going to stick with this particular workout firstly until I can complete it (!) and then improve my time in zone.
Sounds like an interesting workout!
I met my nemesis today, 1hr Z2 indoors! Succesfully completed on rollers by dint of dicking around with cadence, position and occasional bursts of 180RPM cadence (sort of following the GCN Sweetspot Workout with 10s bursts every 5 minutes just to keep legs interested).
