From the screen "help" text in TR's over-under workouts the first 30-60 second of the unders is meant to be hard as you feel like you should be able to relax a bit but your body is still trying to get rid of all the build-up from the overs. Certainly been my experience.
Over-under refers to crossing a boundary - there are over-under workouts at the tempo/threshold boundary for instance - so I'd look at dropping the intensity of the unders by a couple of percent to give you that little chance of recovery. Of course if your intent is to be riding at FTP with slight surges then crack on!
I can't remember from any of the other threads, do you have a power meter or are you working to virtual power? I'm on a dumb trainer and I notice a definite upward drift in cadence to keep at the same power as things warm up, enough that I have to change gear to compensate otherwise I'm pedalling at 100+rpm. The problem with using heart rate as pacing is that also drifts over time, in fact one metric used for longer intervals is aerobic drift which is the difference, as a percentage, between the power/HR ratio for the first and second half of the interval.
the first 30-60 second of the unders is meant to be hard as you feel like you should be able to relax a bit but your body is still trying to get rid of all the build-up from the overs
That's spot on, by the end of each 2 minute 'under' I was back and cruising (relatively speaking) at the intensity I was trying to achieve, it was just the recovery 30-60 seconds at the start where I was struggling. Will still drop intensity a tiny bit, the last two 'unders' required a proper dead stop for a few seconds then out of the saddle to get it back up to speed, not elegant!
I can’t remember from any of the other threads, do you have a power meter or are you working to virtual power?
Virtual power, It gives me lots to tinker with (I have the power curve formula in my training spreadsheet) but it does leave me vulnerable to any sort of drift. I think in general it's accurate enough, I can see my heartrate typically rises gradually throughout a workout which hopefully shows I'm still working and it's not getting easier with time. The fact that I'm never finishing a workout with gas in the tank is hopefully indication enough as well!
My old magnetic trainer used to drift quite a bit - think I checked once I got a PM and it was quite significant, maybe 10% over an interval. Prior to that was knocking out some heroic intervals late in a session!
It varies a lot with the trainer design, some are pretty stable - using the PM on mine it was very apparent with the cadence, it would drift up to maintain power (not changing gear). I guess without a PM using virtual power it would go the other way if the turbo was drifting? You'd need to pedal slightly less hard across the interval to maintain the same wheel speed.
Generally the idea with the workouts with higher intensity intervals is that you should finish the last set wondering if you can complete another one even though you know you can't. The last set should be almost but not totally exhausting, if you overdo it you risk much longer recovery times.
When I look at all my interval based workouts there's typically a 10-15bpm drift in my HR between the first and last interval. That's pretty consistent, here's one from a few weeks ago - https://www.trainerroad.com/app/career/bobw/rides/96535968-kaweah - drag your cursor around to see values at specific times.
Oh, here's a couple of over-under workouts. These intervals are 3 x 2min under, 1min over: https://www.trainerroad.com/app/career/bobw/rides/94574452-warlow , this is 3 x 1min under, 2min over: https://www.trainerroad.com/app/career/bobw/rides/95170859-palisade
I guess without a PM using virtual power it would go the other way if the turbo was drifting? You’d need to pedal slightly less hard across the interval to maintain the same wheel speed.
Actually looking at my past two or three workouts, I'm actually maintaining pretty much the same speed throughout whilst my heartrates trend upwards but only with a 2-3BPM drift. Wonder if the cold temperatures have anything to do with that, I'm sweating but still cold in the garage and can see my breath for most of the workout!
Generally the idea with the workouts with higher intensity intervals is that you should finish the last set wondering if you can complete another one even though you know you can’t. The last set should be almost but not totally exhausting
I like this logic, I'd rather make gains more slowly and not risk overdoing it. Most workouts I'm barely just hanging on by the end and no more but that could just be the couple of extra percent intensity I've been letting myself work to.
Edit:
Oh, here’s a couple of over-under workouts.
Ug, those are both 9 minutes longer than I'm doing right now, although I wonder what difference starting with the under makes, rather than starting with the over? It means you aren't recovering from an 'over' for your first 'under' (these descriptions are getting farcical, it's like the pilots in Airplane! 😀 )
Just skimmed through TR's workout library for over-under workouts, there's 189! All but a couple start the interval with the under part. Those that don't have just a couple of intervals that go "over-under" for one pair, i.e. rest, 95%, 105%, rest, 105%, 95%, rest. Nothing jumps out from the descriptive text as to why all the others start with the under part, here's a typical one:
The primary objective of over-unders is to increase your ability to tolerate and utilize the byproducts that accompany riding above your FTP, all while maintaining a reasonably high power output.
In doing so, you'll develop the ability to handle changes in pace while doing quite a lot of work.
The over-segments or 'surges' flood the muscle with metabolic byproducts bringing with them the desire to ease up--don't.
Hold that burn, then back off only slightly during the under-segments or 'valleys' in order to work through the burn and effectively train your muscles to process the lactic buildup while still going pretty hard.
These intervals can increase how long you can work above FTP as well as how quickly you can dispense the acidic buildup that can limit your capabilities.
Just remembered one of the "nasty" TR workouts: 2mins @ 95%, 2mins @ FTP, 2mins @ 105%, 2mins @ FTP, 2mins @9 5%. One minute(!) rest then repeat. Five minutes rest then do that double block twice again !!!! So hard they swapped it out of the plans for one at 92% & 102%.
By that wording, you would think they would start them all with 'overs' in order to flood the muscles prior to the first 'under', otherwise the first 2 min is just glorified warm-up?
Feels like they're letting you off easy doing under-overs 😉
Here is some of the science behind it...
I really should subscribe to Trainerroad, the resources are great but I just can't really take advantage of the videos as much as I would like due to creaky old laptop etc.
He still fudges the over-under vs. under-over question, if the whole point is to learn to utilise/clear lactate from the muscles, why not start by generating some lactate first?
I can see myself doing doing a lot more of these in preparation for CX season 2021/22 if it ever happens...
I have gone back to weight training in the first lockdown, i have kept it simple just doing the big compound exercises.
Bench press/ squat/ deadlift (alternating normal and romanian)/ pull ups, shoulder press and some Good Mornings.
I have found it has made a much bigger difference, not only to my riding, but i have actually lost some weight, which i struggled to do just riding), i have stopped suffering occasional back and neck pain too.
Yeah I've been doing similar to good effect.
Have been watching a lot of the Dylan Jawnson youtube training channel as well and he swears by lifting in the offseason (as does Joe Friel) so that's good enough for me. Certainly helped with my training (for nothing) in 2020.
Can any point me in the direction of a good training plan for endurance races. I've entered a 300km non stop event in June (if it goes ahead!). I've never done anything like this before but I'm fairly fit. I just seem to be losing my way a bit structure wise. I have a dumb trainer in the shed (no wifi connection), I use an HR strap but don't have a power meter or anything like that. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
anyone want a Trainerroad referral code? I've got 3 I think
300km non stop event in June
yorkshire beast? if so I have experience
yorkshire beast? if so I have experience
Frontier 300. It’s a C2C across the Scottish border. Before I’d started training for this I think the furthest I’d cycled was probably about 30km 😂😬
GCN have published a book by Mark Beaumont & Laura Penhaul about long distance cycling - https://shop.globalcyclingnetwork.com/endurance-how-to-cycle-further-book
Neil Beltchenko has these tips for long distance bikepacking rides/races
(Asking who Neil Beltchenko is would be a bit like me asking who Gee Atherton is!)
Unless you are aiming for a podium the best form of training is: "just ride". You need to become accustomed to long days in the saddle. These will highlight issues like bike fit and fuelling strategies. I used to have problems with nerve damage in small and ring fingers on long rides, I'd be fine up to eight hours or so but twelve hour rides would make everything numb. Sorting out the bike fit fixed that.
Allied with that, I'd do one interval session a week just to give your top end something to do. It will also bring up your FTP a bit. Actually if you've not trained before then any training will show an improvement but you might as well follow some principles! I did a couple of seasons using HR and a dumb trainer with TR's virtual power settings so the bar is pretty low going that route. (The TR referral codes give you a month's free trial BTW but maybe better following that up on the TR specific thread.)
Work out your HR zones (several ways to do this but don't use the "age - ..." type formulae) then keep your HR in zone 1 or 2. On Garmin Edge units at least you can set alarms for HR limits so you don't have to keep monitoring the unit. It will feel mind numbingly slow at times but that sort of pace is what gets you through long distance.
Might be a bit late to do a full weight training plan but consider doing some exercises like Squats and deadlifts. If you look at Dylan Johnson's YouTube channel he's a couple of videos about it and there's plenty of other cycling specific weights content around, again Trainerroad have covered this in their podcasts.
Thanks @whitstone I'll have a look at all that. Much appreciated.
Unless you are aiming for a podium the best form of training is: “just ride”. You need to become accustomed to long days in the saddle. These will highlight issues like bike fit and fuelling strategies. I used to have problems with nerve damage in small and ring fingers on long rides, I’d be fine up to eight hours or so but twelve hour rides would make everything numb. Sorting out the bike fit fixed that.
I've done similar sort of endurance events, and as @whitestone points out if your only aim is to finish without suffering too much there's not much science to it. If you can ride a steady 100km without problem, the other 200 are a matter of willpower, nutrition and kit.
I'd be aiming for a long ride on Saturday, then another couple of hours on Sunday to get used to moving when tired. Ideally get in a proper all dayer at least once, with a bit of night riding when you're knackered, but TBH if the event's a one-off you could probably get away with not doing one if you're prepared to put up with unexpected chafing etc. Given the event's in Scotland I'm guessing there's a fair chance of crap weather, so make use of at least one of your longer rides to test out rain kit - a lot of wet weather clothing is fine for a couple of hours but rubs / soaks through after that.
Biggest improvements I've made in my long distance performances (all non-competitive right enough) is pacing (as above, steady steady throughout) and nutrition, A top-tube fuel cell bag is a godsend, cram it with snacks and eat every twenty minutes if possible.
I mix gels, Clif Bloks, mini-Soreen, those wee mini protein balls that Aldi do, whatever I can pick up en route, etc. etc. I tried using energy drink too but it just made me pee too much, got a bit ridiculous!
And also practice where you're going to carry stuff, e.g. on the first morning of my last big trip I was stopping every twenty minutes to sort out where kit went, I'd started with my raincoat in one of my bags but in the end I carried it in a back jersey pocket, you don't want to be stopping and footering with zips and bags every time you want to put your raincoat on.
I've built up to 100km so far and felt good but this was all on road so Im going to try some long rides over the hills to see the difference. Wet weather training's a good shout (unfortunately!), cheers for suggesting it (I think!).
I remembered (16mins after posting that last post 😒) - a decent way to gauge your pace is to ride such that you can hold a conversation. Obviously if there's a short steep hill then you are going to get out of breath but the principle holds.
Practicing with layout of kit is worth it: no point in having your toolkit on top of your food for example. The stuff you need regularly is what should be to hand.
One point about eating: you need to drink at the same time otherwise it just sits in your stomach as an ever increasing blob. Also work out what suits you, I get on with some bars but not others. The last time I had a gel (it was a brand I've used before) I got an upset stomach and I very rarely get those. Don't know what was going on but I hadn't taken a gel for maybe four or five years before that.
Break the route down into smaller bits, I'll choose thirds, fifths, sevenths and the like because you go: "Two fifths, ... three fifths, that's over half-way!" Also gives you something to focus on mentally.
I've done a few longer rides in Zone 2 HR but they're blooming boring! Sitting on the turbo at zone 2 I can fairly zip along but as soon as I'm out on the road I have to go quite slowly! Is this usually the case or am I a lot less fitter than I thought I was?
I’ve done a few longer rides in Zone 2 HR but they’re blooming boring! Sitting on the turbo at zone 2 I can fairly zip along but as soon as I’m out on the road I have to go quite slowly! Is this usually the case or am I a lot less fitter than I thought I was?
My experience too, Zone 2 seems sloooooooow but it's all in the head, once you can accept you're still 'training' and that there is a benefit to it, it's almost a good thing, you can over-dress knowing you won't be working too hard, so you can stay warm and dry, and you just need to set new objectives like finding new roads or using the ride to get comfortable on the bike (keep allen keys handy for saddle adjustments in particular).
The only danger is under-eating because you think it's an easy ride, I've returned from some long, slow Z2 rides an absolute cranky mess because I haven't eaten and am seriously hangry!
Yeah, Z2 riding is pretty slow, certainly at first, but it's sustainable which is the point. Remember that on the turbo you aren't having to deal with wind resistance or drag from the road surface. On the flat I can sit in the 25-30 kmh range whilst in Z2, quite a bit different once I get to hills.
The Z2/Z3 boundary equates to the aerobic threshold, sometimes called Lactate Threshold 1 or LT1, this is the point at which your blood lactate starts to increase at a greater rate than at easier levels of exertion.
Better to stay away from hills during Z2 or tackle them very slowly? I think I'd fall off staying in Z2 up a hill!!
@dirtyrider - trainer road referral code would be great if you still have one going spare please
I’ve built up to 100km so far and felt good but this was all on road
Hours at Zone 2/3 boundary on your HR monitor will be the best predictor. Forget all those HIIT workouts everyone likes for time-crunched whatever. Sorry there are no shortcuts here (from a 12hr TT specialist).
I've also entered the Frontier 300. I'm going to train for it even though I have a feeling it won't be going ahead. There's also a local sportive the weekend before the Frontier 300 which I want to tick off my list (129km, 2200m climbing). I've kicked off 2021 by aiming to ride every day and so far I have stuck to it, minimum of 35km daily. All done on Zwift.
A lazy 2020 with reduced riding and poor diet has seen a drop in fitness (FTP went from 250w to 223w in a recent test). I completed a 100km ride as part of the Festive500 2020 (done in 2hrs 54m but mostly at Z3) and a 100 mile ride in December 2019 (5hr 52m in Z2 I had been building up and doing a lot of Z2 endurance rides at this point, probably would have been quicker had a picked a flat route on Zwift).
Looking to improve my FTP and build up my endurance at the same time. I'm guessing its a case of pick one or the other?
I think it's important to remember there's no direct switch in your biological system when you move from one zone to another. Its more of a curve & zones also have ranges eg FTP can be high, low or duration. Also depending on who you speak to there are there many zones depending on what training program they use.
Endurance and FTP are two parts of fitness you can work on at the same time - Zone 2 will lead to a better ability to push your FTP but building this takes time & patience. I do all my Z2 on a turbo between 60-90mins 3/4 a week over Nov Dec & a bit in Jan sitting exactly in the range -its hard because of the focus needed to not get bored and your FTP will fall and this can lead to a bit of 'ego panic' but thats ok as you start to build it up from Jan onwards peaking in Jun/July/Aug - this is obviously all dependant on your aims, lifestyle, age and access to training tools etc and what works for one doesn't work another.
FWIW my 'endurance' rides aren't Z2 - they are a mixture of intensity but staying away for anything in my zone 5/6 and limiting any time over 400w. My Z2 sessions are mainly around mitochondrial health - I might be taking this thread down a rabbit hole but riding bikes has become more than racing and fun etc as I've learnt more about how Z2 work leads to life longevity in terms of mitochondrial health.
@Creg You can push both at the same time, as in during the same overall plan, but most individual workouts should really target one or the other.
Training zones are one of those things where individuals try to make a name for themselves coming up with new ones. Physiologically there's really just three: below LT1, between LT1 & LT2, above LT2. Most seem to follow Andrew Coggan's 7 zone model which doesn't map exactly onto the three zone model as Coggan's Z4 straddles LT2.
As polarised training seems to be making an appearance in the thread, with the three zone model being mentioned, how many of you looking to do ultra/endurance rides or races use that for training?
If you do, what sort of overall weekly volume do you think you need at lt1/z2 for it to be effective (over SS for time crunched) and is there a minimum dose per session in your experience i.e. 45, 60, 90 mins?
It seems TR love SS sessions, or at least they seem rarely to go unmentioned.
As regards z2 on the road. I too find it very difficult be strict with it due to both terrain and the fact that I'm a big bear, so even with a good gear range a I'll struggle to get up hills here in z2.
Ive also noticed cadence has a big affect on my hr from turbo work, from a cadence of 60rpm to 100rpm at the same power I'll get a 15bpm hr difference. So spinning up hill isn't necessarily the answer either, obviously there is a mid way between grinding and spinning too much. I only have a hrm outside, no power meter.
Anyway I'm off to the shed as I have a 2hr Z2 ride due in my evil zwift plan 🤪
Forgot to mention that Coggan's 7 zone model are training zones not physiological.
@longdog - polarised training seems to fixate on the 80/20 mix but whether that just happens to be what the pro riders do or is actually the optimum I'm not sure. The pro riders are somewhat surprisingly time limited, there's only so much training they can do and still get adequate recovery so it might be that they can't do 90/10. ISTR that Dylan Johnson reckons 10hrs/wk is about as low as you can go with a polarised approach.
I do three sessions on the turbo which gives me the weekends free to do long outdoor rides at the weekend so it's sort of a polarised approach.
TR do major on Sweet Spot for the early parts of their overall plans but there's more VO2max work as you progress, just looking at what I've got coming up and it's one VO2max workout and two threshold workouts per week. I might swap one of the threshold workouts for a VO2max one, still debating this with myself, and then I'd definitely be on a polarised approach.
Cadence: I've done two endurance workouts recently, one at an average cadence of 84, the other at 90. The power/HR ratio is slightly lower for the latter. High cadence moves the strain from your legs to your cardiovascular system so it's to be expected.
Thanks @whitestone for starting this thread and for posting those Over-under Traineroad workouts. I borrowed the Warlow one and did it tonight. It's pretty hard but repeatable - as it should be and I can see me using it regularly. I will say that whilst I had TR and moved to Zwift because of the social aspect (rather than looking at blue bars for hours on end), the combination of TR's plans and the Zwift ecosystem is a winner. My only gripe: building your own workouts in Zwift is a royal pain in the backside. Very sensitive and no ability to copy and past interval sets for example. Took far too long to 'design' it compared to what a good UI should allow.
You can use this to build Zwift workouts. I don’t find it any easier than Zwift to be honest but at least you don’t have to load up Zwift to do it.
I did a TR workout in zwift today and it went well up to a point - TR on my phone, controlling the trainer bluetooth in erg mode, and zwift using ant - left the trainer control blank in the pairing screen as you're directed to do.
I went up the epic KOM, though, which might not have been the best choice as when I turned round at the top of the radio tower the descent was dead hard! Some combination of erg mode, my bike having no low gears, and / or trainer difficulty (I usually have it quite low, 25% I think). But in the middle of a sweet spot interval it got way harder to keep power than when I was climbing.
Might be better to stick to flatter routes.
Sounds like something went wrong with the pairing there Garry. I have done kids of workouts like that and the route doesn’t matter as TR controls the erg mode and shouldn’t be affected by gradient at all ok Zwift. I used to select the hilly routes on purpose to gain elevation towards the tron bike.
Inspired by this thread I did an over/under workout on BKool, which I'm guessing is similar to Trainer Road as it's a series of coloured blocks moving slowly (oh so slowly!) across the screen. A bit of Spotify helped, but it's still pretty dull. I'm debating whether or not to sign back up to Sufferfest, but I got a very cheap yearly deal on BKool through my club and it's all paid for up until Spring...
@whitestone , well I can't see me doing 10hour z2 on the turbo, plus one or two top end interval sessions. It's not so hard to get longer hours in out side in better weather, but I'm just not that committed to 2-3 hours turbo after work and quite like my family 😁
For me I think there's a benefit in whatever z2 I can do for health/exercise reasons regardless of whether it's enough to continue to force further adaptation. I guess like was mentioned for mitochondrial and heart health like with MAF ideas for running.
I think that's why Sweet Spot oriented training took off - most of the adaptations without the huge time commitment. Like you I find long turbo sessions, particularly the "boring" Z2 ones, pretty hard work mentally. This is the description from TR about their traditional base plan:
As its name implies, the Traditional block takes the old-fashioned approach to base training. It requires a large time commitment to give you significant gains. Unless you have at least 10 hours/week to train, we do not recommend the long, low-intensity Traditional approach.
This block is primarily geared toward Grand Tour athletes or those recovering from an injury who want to avoid high-intensity intervals.
That last line is probably key. You have to be pretty focussed and committed to spend that amount of time training and for most of us, even in lockdown and if we were furloughed, it just isn't practical.
The TR Sweet Spot approach isn't unique to them, Chris Carmichael's "The Time Crunched Cyclist" from 2012 takes a 6hr per week approach to training and is also biased towards Sweet Spot with over-under workouts and VO2max intervals. Incidentally Chris Carmichael is the 'C' in CTS, the company that Dylan Johnson coaches for.
On that subject there's a big thread on the TR forums discussing Dylan Johnson's comparison of Polarised vs Sweet Spot. Lots of geeky stuff but one point being made is that lots of training at the Z2/3 (power) boundary improves lactate clearance so helps with sprints or higher intensity efforts. Another recurring theme is consistency - for most of us the actual strategy we follow doesn't really matter so long as it encourages you to train consistently.
I currently do just 3.5hrs/wk over three workouts on the turbo. Even that small amount per week over the course of a year (admittedly a bit intermittent through the summer) gave me a 13% increase in FTP and that was from a decent base. Allow half an hour for preparation and showering after each workout and that's 5hrs/week.
For me that's probably the absolute minimum to see improvement, i.e. my MED or Minimal Effective Dose. I'm not totally sure what my MRD or Maximum Recoverable Dose is, partly because there's also just riding involved as well which adds to TSS, but if we were in a full lockdown I reckon I could do TR's Mid Volume plans which are five workouts amounting to 5.5 - 6.5hrs per week. I'd probably have to go from a 3:1 work/recovery week ratio to 2:1 to make sure I didn't overtrain.
I'm bouncing off the walls at the moment as I actually have the means and the roads/trails around me to probably get in a good volume of riding, even at this time of year (a Christmas hamper of Stolen Goat winter riding gear helps a lot).
Problem is I think I've given myself some sort of 'nodule' under one of my sit-bones from using aggressive short nose saddles too much, so ironically the only riding I can really do is short hard sessions on the turbo, at least the pressure through the pedals takes pressure off the sit-bones! I've given myself an arbitrary limit of 4hrs a week to give the 'nodule' a chance to recover.
It's weird how winter weather actually makes me WANT to get out and do long slow Z2 miles, I think there's a perverse joy in being out in foul weather but wearing all the best gear, you form your own little microclimate staring out through fogged glasses at the weather happening around you.
I definitely feel best for lots of long slow miles, recuperating from back surgery last year required a 'little and often' approach, and all at Z2 to begin with, which became a really useful training tool in its own right, getting me out for little loops every morning. I could never do base on the turbo though, long sweetspot sessions are the longest I can tolerate.
Cheers Whitestone. I'm currently about 6 hours a week on the gravel grinder program. Often a mix of zones but largely Z2 & 3, with some threshold and Vo2 max intervals, but none of the work above tempo is very sustained really. Plus similar hours walking (work and pleasure) and short amounts of swimming (skins in the sea at 60N limits that!).
My Z2 free rides in GG do tend to be right at the top of my Z2 hr, 135-140bpm.
Interesting article here, nothing new really but a useful read.
https://road.cc/content/feature/what-ftp-7-key-facts-about-major-training-metric-268471
Cheers, interesting to note from that article that they say if your FTP is a low % of MAP then you 're better training medium intensity to up your FTP, so SS. Which would be me as my actual FTP is lower than from ramp test derived FTP
If it's a high % better training vo2 to up it.
Unless I'm reading that wrong.
That was the bit that caught my attention.
I don't really know my FTP as a percentage of my MAP, but I did take away from that the reasons why you might want to train one then the other, e.g. the earlier discussion about whether to train short intervals or long intervals.
I took it that training short, high intensity intervals raises MAP, which then gives you more room to raise your FTP without having to spend as much time close to MAP.
This suits me, I was going to gradually move from short/high intensity to longer intensity before moving back outdoors full time, but I guess I've got time to finish a 4 week block of short/high intensity, test FTP again, move towards slightly longer intervals for 4 weeks, revisit short/high intensity intervals for 4 weeks, then come end of March time start to move the sessions outdoors (I've got plenty of 3-5 minute long climbs around here to play with).
