[Closed] the bike industry is suffering

This ^^

TheDoctor - Member
As has been mentioned previously all the new standard of the week crap the industry and media pushed out stopped me buying new mtbs, I used to have 5, now just a HT running retro specs. Have been doing more road but they are starting to pull the same crap there as well!

That's a good thing right? Had bikes stayed exactly the same you'd have bought five instead you're still enjoying the one you have.

Started to reply, quickly lost the will, bit like trying to buy a current mtb really..

 

Remind me what can't you buy again?

26 inch Bontrager TLR tyres - mainly because trek don't make 26 inch bikes any more.
26 inch Bontrager TLR wheels - for the same reason.
26 inch 1.125 steerer forks - if you can still get them, they're lubricated with unicorn tears and accordingly expensive

Boost induced rage

I like this expression "Boost induced rage". 😉
Great!

And if an industry creates such rage - then this is the consequence:

the bike industry is suffering

Have to admit so: bought a cheap Fox Shox 34 Float Rhythm in winter sale. The crazy rebate was for "Boost" only...
Next step now: to find a really, really low cost BOOST front wheel...

Hope this all doesn't end up in

Boost induced rage

“standard” introductions (BB30, BB30a, PF30, BBright, BB90/95, BB86/92, 386 Evo, OSBB in both Alu and Carbon, T47

So much truth in this thread... but one needs read no further than the above to get a glimpse into all that is wrong with the bike industry. Where exactly is the REAL innovation?

Where exactly is the REAL innovation?

Easy to answer (for the mountain bike world):
1984
"Skinner Descender"

1987
"SE Shocker by Hanebrink"
😉

Mobile phone sales are tanking too, as are car sales.
Brexit means uncertainty.
Pound devalued so prices are up.
Bikes are often a bit shit with incomplete groupsets and shoddy wheels.
Standard keep changing who knows when to buy
Prices have snapped the elastic 3k+ for decent bike is too much
Riding on the road is a death wish
Everyone hate cyclist
You’ll be just as shit on a new bike as you are on your old one
The industry is shambolic, grey market, lbs vs online etc
The big retailers Halfords/Evans are amateurish

Hardly suprising is it, all that said people will still want bikes and bike bits and good retailers will do well.

what you need is an 8k tv to watch people go biking

bencooper - Member
What product category doesn’t continually improve and refine every year?

Loads.
Many things gain a foothold in the market and once established with a good reputation are cheapened to increase profits.

Remember film cameras?
They peaked sometime before digital took, products were cheapened with plastic bodies etc.
Got an old Pure Radio?
Compare it to a new model of the same size, nowhere near the quality.
Weihrauch air rifles and Gibson guitars similarly.
There's loads.
You could add Shimano brakes, Rockshox Forks and Brooks saddles.
Alloy was sold as a frame material of choice when it became cheaper to produce than steel.
Lots of clothing and footwear.
And of course chocolate.
🙂

New does not always mean better for the customer.

I currently have three bikes all with 1 1/8" steerers, 120-160mm travel, 20mm axles, and all the other obsolete standards.

Can anyone direct me to where I can buy a new fork?

Can anyone direct me to where I can buy a new fork?

Find an adaptor for your hub to 15mm and you can get a 2018 rs fork...

[url= http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/mobile/rockshox-sektor-gold-rl-dual-position-coil-forks-2018/rp-prod109678 ]forks[/url]

The car example given above is nonsense. The reason they don’t bring a new golf out every year is the cost involved in making a new one and the time it takes to develop the next model. If they could, they would.

I have a 650b bike with boost at the front and 142 at the rear + a 29er with standard front and boost rear. Meh, that’s how they came and I didn’t give the hub size much thought when I bought them. Oh, and I wouldn’t buy a 26” bike new even if I could.

Three pages and no-one has mentioned e-bikes?

Thought that was going to be the next big boom... 😉

The car example given above is nonsense. The reason they don’t bring a new golf out every year is the cost involved in making a new one and the time it takes to develop the next model.

So given it's that much cheaper to bring a new bike out each year, why is it so surprising that they do so? By that logic, they would if they could bit they aren't in the position to do so, whereas bike companies perhaps are.

wilburt-bloke:

Everyone hate cyclist

As always - this forum is just great!

For 2018 I really hope that I won't suffer from

Boost induced rage

I love the humor in this forum. I love these arguments.
And I know: we all like bikes and love biking!

Had some good cups of red wine and the "boost induced rage" puts a big, big smile on my face! 🙂
Cheers to all!
👿 😈 🙄

So given it's that much cheaper to bring a new bike out each year, why is it so surprising that they do so? By that logic, they would if they could bit they aren't in the position to do so, whereas bike companies perhaps are.

26 inch Bontrager TLR tyres - mainly because trek don't make 26 inch bikes any more.
26 inch Bontrager TLR wheels - for the same reason.
26 inch 1.125 steerer forks - if you can still get them, they're lubricated with unicorn tears and

o given it's that much cheaper to bring a new bike out each year, why is it so surprising that they do so? By that logic, they would if they could bit they aren't in the position to do so, whereas bike companies perhaps are.

Not directed at you hungry but the next post after. I agree with you.

[quote=chestrockwell ]The car example given above is nonsense. The reason they don’t bring a new golf out every year is the cost involved in making a new one and the time it takes to develop the next model. If they could, they would.

If the manufacturers weren't changing the models every year then they'd be cheaper to produce, retailers could order in confidence of selling them at RRP and the RRP would then actually come down as it wasn't having to be inflated due to under-margin selling every 12 months. Incremental changes like geometry/hub/BB sizes would occur every 3-4 years instead of this drip-drip-drip thing we experience at the moment.

Plenty of manufacturers don’t change the frame every year.

Incremental changes like geometry/hub/BB sizes would occur every 3-4 years instead of this drip-drip-drip thing we experience at the moment.

A good example of people moving to longer model runs
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/the-evolution-of-the-specialized-enduro-2016.html

Three pages and no-one has mentioned e-bikes?

not quite true we are on page 3 and you have mentioned e bikes

this is a quandry

The frame design only changes every 3 or 4 years from the major manufacturers doesn't it? Unless they make an absolute shocker.
Smaller companies can make changes quicker as they are lower volume and probably don't buy manufacturing slots so far in advance and can therefore react to market changes quicker.

Cycling was the new Golf. It has peaked and is now going to flatline and probably diminish over the next few years back to a more realistic level as the newbies don't get on with it, the next thing comes along or the economy just tanks and people have less disposable income or desire to spend it on 'toys'.

I've been riding MTB since 1991 or so, I can't see me ever stopping. I have, however, already considerably reduced the amount of road riding I do having lost the love this year and gone back to my MTB roots after 4 or 5 years of doing a lot.

I won't be buying anything with Boost, 650b, no front mech option or 35mm bars.
People will only take so much bullshit

I don't know if there is a genuine drop in sales in the bike industry but if there is they've brought it on themselves for this very reason. Pretty much all the people I ride with share that opinion and are sticking with their older bikes.

I've got a 26" & 29er hardtail and a 26" full suss, the full susser will take 650b with new rear dropouts but changing over will gain me nothing other than making my bank balance several hundred pounds smaller.

Now where is that YouTube video of the foreign guy pissing himself laughing after introducing all those new standards 😆

Pretty much all the people I ride with share that opinion and are sticking with their older bikes.

And I can't remember anyone ever being bothered about the clamp diameter of the bars on the new bike they were looking at.

Are we allowed discs or are V's where it's at to keep backwards compatibility? What about IS mounts?

Find an adaptor for your hub to 15mm and you can get a 2018 rs fork...

I didn't know about that, thanks.

Although the fact that there is a single fork on the market that fits my requirements (almost) doesn't fill me with confidence that's I'll still be able to run my bikes in their current spec in another 10 years.

I guess at that point they'll have forced me into buying a new bike or three.

How old are these bikes?

Are we allowed discs or are V's where it's at to keep backwards compatibility?

This goes back to what someone was saying earlier. Between the mid-90s to early 2000s you got some genuine imporovments in performance with disc brakes and suspension. It was worth spending money to upgrade or even to buy a new bike.

I jumped on disc brakes, suspension, and dropper posts as quickly as I could because it was so much better than what I had.

Since then it's just been questionable improvements whose main effect seems to be to lighten people's wallets.

How old are these bikes?

2007 Santa Cruz Nomad, 2009 Dialled Alpine, and a Coyote Dual from round about 2000.

There's also a 1997 Orange P7 but I'm quite happy running that rigid with Vs for when I'm feeling nostalgic 🙂

I can't remember anyone ever being bothered about the clamp diameter of the bars on the new bike they were looking at.

I know one person who was bothered. Admittedly not while he was looking at the new bike, but when he tried to fit his favourite stem to his new bike. It provided me with some amusement until I tried to fit my favourite bars to my new bike. It is a fat bike, so I wasn't expecting to fit a pair of existing wheels. Though I would be interested to know if anyone makes adaptors so I could fit 142/12 and 100/15 wheels without needing to redish them.

So heading to retro bike then?
If you want to keep them running for 10 years then you will easily spend more on the replacement parts than replacing them. Your choice in some ways but ha e you not got your moneys worth from them?
When I looked at what was needed to keep my 2012 bike running, it was in need of a drive train, fork and shock service, brakes needed replacing wheels probably coming close. Got a brand new bike for similar money. Given the investment in tooling for hubs etc I expect to be able to buy boost for a long time same as I can buy 135mm qr now.

Three pages and no-one has mentioned e-bikes?

Thought that was going to be the next big boom...

Well there you go then, 3 things lots of other 26" rubber available, Stans released their new rims in 26" too so not that hard. as above some forks available still but also when was the last non tapered head tube bike made?

But the point is that I've got Bontrager TLR wheels and tyres, and they just work (none of the pfaffing that crops up in regular posts on here) so I'd kind of like to keep using them, thank you very much. Tyres wear out, so I'd like to be able to replace them, and if I ever need to replace a wheel, it would be nice to be able to buy one that I can guarantee will work.
As for the straight head tube frame, I agree that it's been a while since they were commonly made but, not being one of those people who changes their car when the ashtray fills up (I don't smoke, but you will hopefully get the analogy), I like to keep my bikes and get some use out of them.
New stuff is great, and there is nothing wrong with it, but it's the sense of more or less being forced into needlessly giving stuff up that people are objecting to.

P.S. Here's hoping that Santa brought people the bike stuff that they want/need

Since then it's just been questionable improvements whose main effect seems to be to lighten people's wallets.

The improvements do seem incremental rather than large but then when looking at what is changing it is fairly subtle, 1 degree change in frame angle, 20 mm change in stem, 5 mm change in axle etc,.

But when you compare a 2017 bike with a 1997 bike it is a lot different (and not just because of major changes such as disc brakes and suspension)
Without those minor changes over the 20 years you would have got there as no bike maker would have jumped from 1997 bike to 2017 bike in one go.

(All alien to me really as I ride a track bike where very little chages...)

Tyres wear out, so I'd like to be able to replace them, and if I ever need to replace a wheel, it would be nice to be able to buy one that I can guarantee will work.

As for the straight head tube frame, I agree that it's been a while since they were commonly made but, not being one of those people who changes their car when the ashtray fills up

chipsngravy - Member
Some of the issues might be.

For less than the price of a Santa Cruz V10 X01 you can buy a 2018 KTM 250 TPI. A far more involved and sophisticated piece of engineering.

This kinda highlights things ... but as long as there is people willing to pay silly prices - the industry will demand silly prices.

So heading to retro bike then?
If you want to keep them running for 10 years then you will easily spend more on the replacement parts than replacing them. Your choice in some ways but ha e you not got your moneys worth from them?

I would say my only retro-bike is the '97 Orange. Like I said, the mid 90s to early 2000s were a period that saw the serious improvements in mountain biking technology with discs and suspension. Since then the only improvement has been dropper posts. Geometry tweaks are just that, tweaks.

The Nomad cost almost £4,000 in 2007. The idea that 10 years is a pretty good run is just depressing. Trails now have not evolved to the point that they have gone beyond the capabilities of this bike. There is no reason to replace this bike except the availability and costs of parts.

To replace this bike with today's equivalent would probably end up costing at least £4,000. That makes repair almost always cheaper, especially since I do all my own work. But even if I took it to a shop it would take a lot of problems all at once to make it cheaper to buy a new bike.

What is going to kill this bike is not wear and tear, it's going to be obsolescence.

The guy previous with the 07 Nomad (is that the 1.5" head tube?) can dow hat he wants, otherwise stick a 650 for on and correct the geo if you are desperate to keep it.

Nope, 1 1/8". As soon as Rockshox stop making that Sektor someone linked to above that'll be it.

... and now the industry is trying to push all this nonsense in the road market too.

Having failed to convince anyone that 35mm bar clamps are a good thing on a road bike (Oh come on - like you really need a 35mm bar clamp on a ROAD bike??? Yeah, right...) the industry wants to make people believe that unless they're riding a thru-axled, hydraulic disc-braked, aero-profiled, electronic-shifting, 1 X bike with 30mm tyre clearance then their bike is sh*t, or outdated/obsolete.

Gosh, how on Earth did we manage until now?

I'm certainly no retro grouch, but a lot of this so-called "innovation" is pointless and ultimately it will destroy the road bike market with people becoming as disillusioned as we lot seem to be on here about what's happened to the MTB industry in the past 10yrs.

This kinda highlights things ... but as long as there is people willing to pay silly prices - the industry will demand silly prices.

This, & It'll always be the case.
I was at my LBS (50 miles away in Guisborough) & Andy says, 'you want one of these', while stroking the saddle of a 7.5K Orange Ebike! & I'm like, 'Andy, I could buy a decent Gas Gas/Beta trials bike & a nice enduro for that money, Maybe not both brand new but, ya know.
Mad.

unless they're riding a thru-axled, hydraulic disc-braked, aero-profiled, electronic-shifting, 1 X bike with 30mm tyre clearance then their bike is sh*t, or outdated/obsolete.

Sorry but I disagree. Things are moving on fast and i think all of these innovations have incremental benefits and help transform, in particular, winter road bikes from drab winter hacks or hand me down summer bikes with half arsed guards, into something reliable, responsive safe and a joy to ride in winter.

help transform, in particular, winter road bikes from drab winter hacks or hand me down summer bikes with half arsed guards, into something reliable, responsive safe and a joy to ride in winter.

Not really.... Bikes with mudguards and tire clearance have always been available. It's just that people dontnspend money on their winter bikes.

It got worse when crud released those road blade pieces of crap as where previously beyond the mandated date of mudguards compulsory those without would be told to sling their hook from the group rides and this forced their hand to get a proper winter bike. Now you have people showing up on their old summer bikes with those hateful pieces of crap attached which simply do nothing for those around you.......the whole point in mudguards on the winter bike in group rides is not for your arse but to stop you spraying the rider behinds face with salty water the whole ride.

agree:

Since then the only improvement has been dropper posts. Geometry tweaks are just that, tweaks.

I'm certainly no retro grouch, but a lot of this so-called "innovation" is pointless and ultimately it will destroy the road bike market with people becoming as disillusioned as we lot seem to be on here about what's happened to the MTB industry in the past 10yrs.

And at the same time: a 2017 full suspension trail bike is a nice piece of equipment. But that's no contradiction to above.

Problem is if the above

tweaks

This thread is about:

the bike industry is suffering

Many posts in this thread: incicate that the industry is ALSO suffering because they played the trick too often?

Personally not sure about it.
Why should the strategy stop functioning?

I'm amazed that shimano made their 11sp compatible with 10sp wheels. What are they playing at? Wheel manufacturers can't have been happy about that.

Maybe they're saving that for when 12sp comes out or even straight to 13. I'll bet that's possible with boost dropout spacing.

The strategy stops functioning when you then have large price increases coupled with uncertainty.

Mobile phone sales are tanking too, as are car sales.
Brexit means uncertainty.
Pound devalued so prices are up.
Bikes are often a bit shit with incomplete groupsets and shoddy wheels.
Standard keep changing who knows when to buy
Prices have snapped the elastic 3k+ for decent bike is too much

Please stop saying Brexit is causing this. It isnt. Mobile phones arent selling as our current phones are adequate for our needs. Iphone X doesnt seem to have done too badly, even at £1k.
Car sales - my car is 11 years old now. I'm not bothering even looking at newer cars, not because I cant afford it, but becuase my current car is still very capable of doing what I want.
My bike is the same. I've got a 15yo CX bike, the only one I'm likely to get rid of due to the desire to have disc brakes. My MTB is 4 yo, with 26" wheels, oh the shame, yet it does what I want perfectly, and I cannot see any reason to upgrade it at all, never mind getting a new bike.
Things last longer now, that is hitting producers - see Apple trying to get people to upgrade, by making their phones slower. Their 3yo technology is still good enough for most people.
£4k+ bikes. I really cannot see the benefit for average riders. DH racers, then yes.Road racers, possibly, general trail riding, no.
It's one of the reasons I gave up my ST subscription, it seems to be cool to review £1k+ wheels and £1500 forks, totally out of reach of the vast majority of people, and really puts me off reading the mag, I'd rather see reviews of £1-2k bikes, £200 wheels etc - the stuff that 'normal' people buy.

I find this debate fascinating.

As someone who bought their last 'complete' mountain bike around 2001 (frames/components only since, all 1 1/8 135mm), I now automatically look to the second-hand market for spares as the need arises. Recently, I've taken to hoarding components/spares that will only get harder to find as time goes on. EBay has NOS bits aplenty and I've hoovered up enough 1 1/8 Marzocchis to keep me going for the next few years.

All this means that I'm not spending my cash in the 'mainstream' industry and I suspect I'm not alone in this.

PS what alanl said....

uncertainty

Good point- holyzeus-bloke.

Trust is an important factor. Too much "Dubai" might scare the customers away...?

I'd rather see reviews of £1-2k bikes, £200 wheels etc - the stuff that 'normal' people buy.

my impression as well.

I'd rather see reviews of £1-2k bikes, £200 wheels etc - the stuff that 'normal' people buy.

Please stop saying Brexit is causing this

But brexit, trump, Tories etc zzzzz.

Actually I want some new forks but you can't even buy lyriks in non boost now? FU rockshox.
At least I can get fox 36's still but have to piss around getting my current 20mm hub converted.
In fact thinking about it, I will save 1200 quid and stick with what I've already got.
FU the entire bike industry.

scotroutes - Member
(....£1-2k bikes, £200 wheels etc....)

I don't read the mag or pay much attention to reviews but that's more in my realm of spending

I'm "careful" with my money and will seek bargains. 🙂

My last bike was a wee bit more than £2k but was such an amazing bargain that I took the opportunity (I'd otherwise have bought a Bossnut). Much of the rest stems from my time working in a bike shop. My most frequently ridden MTB is a Ragley with cheap forks from Germany, 2nd hand hubs and £25 rims. The notion of spending £3k on a bike would make me blanch. As someone already pointed out, you can get one with an engine for less 🙂

Thankfully there are still folk buying new, spangly toys and selling their cast-offs cheap. When that supply dries up I'll start to believe the marketers have got it wrong.

For less than the price of a Santa Cruz V10 X01 you can buy a 2018 KTM 250 TPI. A far more involved and sophisticated piece of engineering.

Be interesting to compare manufacturer, importer and retailer gross margins on the two, I suspect most motorbike dealers would be in shock, particularly regards spares etc.

If the industry wants a my few quid, make 142 rear spacing available on new frames.

And add adjustable dropouts so I can use my nice 142 26" wheels in your shiny new '650B' frame please. **** Boost, I love the look of the new Soul but won't be buying one because of that, well, and the fact it's probs too low for 26" wheels.

Manufacturing for export is helped by the falling pound the fact of raw materials having increased in price measured in sterling doesn't matter if you're selling back out again. It sums to zero. What it has done is made labour cheaper when measured in any currency other than sterling. So, British manufacturing benefits from a fall in sterling unless it's producing for the home market in which case it doesn't actually matter because although it's got more expensive it's no less competitive. The result is as already been said. Full order books.

The UK motor trade hasn't been affected by the drop in sterling, the contraction was predicted before Brexit, it's because we're seeing the tailing off of a boost from PCL deals - everyone who wants one now has one.

The bike industry is similar to the car industry. Getting more people into the sport, just like the motor trade pushing PCL, will cause a spike in sales but once people have a bike, as others have said, the innovations aren't really much of a draw to us mere mortals. If you're not already flying down a hill like Steve Peat or firing up one like Nino Schurter dropping £5k on a new bike with a 6mm wider rear end or half a degree off the head angle isn't going to get you there. Your "old" bike is likely to serve you just as well and that's especially good if you've got 3 years of payments left to make on it. The hype over the latest greatest geometry or wheel standard might even be counter productive if it drives the cost of second hand bikes down.

...lots of good arguments in this discussion.
Fun to read!
scotroutes - bloke:

Thankfully there are still folk buying new, spangly toys and selling their cast-offs cheap. When that supply dries up I'll start to believe the marketers have got it wrong.

Others:
I suspect that professional bike-reviewers / journalists get pampered from the big brands. Means the reviews we read are too often about the 8 k wonder sled.
People should buy the 8 k wonder-sled and be happy with it.
But I wonder about the number of reviews of these type of high end bikes.
Luckily there is from time to time a review about a Voodoo Bizango or Boardman or a Bossnut.
But generally: bike companies which produce budget type bikes aren't able to get "reviewed" from bike journalists? Is this possible?
Some (too many?) bike journalists are too happy to bike the 8 k sled not thinking about the fact that they got the sled "for free"...?

As already noted, most seem to be assuming the industry is struggling due to a shrinking high end market, the truth is that nobody makes much profit on a £4k+ dandyhorses and ego chariots...

It's interesting that Mango went tits up, they were a lower price point fashion/commuter brand riding the tail end of the "Olympic glow"...

I think it's just the UK getting back on the pre-2012 trajectory, I predict Clarkson will be PM by mid 2019... All Bicycle riding will be a distant memory within 6 months of his victory...

I’ve not bought a new MTB as I’m now worried that if I buy a 650b with through axles it will be obsolete in 2 years because everything will be 750c with wheels held on by electromagnets!

I also won’t be ever buying a new road bike if all you can get is carbon disc-braked frames. Will be getting a custom built rourke with proper brake calipers and keeping my road bike as an object of beauty.

Oh, and well done to all the media for stirring up all the stories of doom and gloom over the past 12 months

the truth is that nobody makes much profit on a £4k+ dandyhorses and ego chariots...

mmmmhhhh
This I doubt.

I suspect the other way around: on a 8 k bike the manufacturer earns 2 k or 3 k? Or more?

For a small brand it's difficult to make money on a 1 k or 2 k mountain bike?

The push for £4k+ mountain bikes has a reason...
Try to transform bikes into a status symbol and a BRAND thing / fashion product ...

Suspect:
This is

the truth is that nobody makes much profit on a £4k+ dandyhorses and ego chariots...

really 4500 quid bike reduced to 2700 quid bike?? seems like a lot doesn't it

if its been sat in the shop a year and hasnt shifted?

if its gone in 30 days someone just made their money providing it doesn't come back in many pieces 6 months later when you have to support that customer through their anxiety luckily failure rates are low but without seeing the numbers you could argue 1800 quid is a lot of profit if nothing goes wrong.

the odd thing is if you saw an OEM pricelist where a rear shock is 60 quid then you might think that industry is making loadsa money, however once something is sold it still needs support which is why whilst you can make a frame for 200 quid you dont sell it for 300 quid (unless your doing it for a hobby and god only knows from the figures some do it for the love) just in case there's a warranty claim down the line

wrong!

I'll admit I'm no bike industry insider but I very much doubt even the big brands shift 1/10th as many 8k wunderbikes as they do sub £500 models, perhaps 'profit' was the wrong term, 'volume' is more like it, and the article from the OP was focused on a reduction in the number of bikes sold, not the profit margin on each unit...

Question for any retailers, would you rather be shifting a handful of 8k Gucci bikes each week or a hundred £300 hybrids?

im surprised we are on page 4 and no one mentioned brexit yet

Brexit has already been mentioned...

Brexit has already been mentioned...

bastards

i cant believe we are on page 5 (excite)

[quote=cookeaa ]
Question for any retailers, would you rather be shifting a handful of 8k Gucci bikes each week or a hundred £300 hybrids?
A hundred £300 hybrids that each need to be ordered, paid for, unboxed, partially built, adjusted, PDI'd, added to the POS system/inventory then sold, given a free service and any other post-sales chat doesn't leave much room for margin. Much of the low-end stuff also comes in free of any grease, loose headsets etc.

Much of the low-end stuff also comes in free of any grease, loose headsets etc

So do most of the complete built bikes from the majors.

@whitestone - I'll ignore the fact that the Solaris is a hardtail (so really a different bike) and apply the same comparison of my Mount Vision to my mid 90s Raleigh Stonefly (also ~a decade period).

1996- v-brakes, rigid.
2006- discs, full suspension at similar weight [+threadless headset, external bb, and other small niceties].

In real terms the Mount Vision was slightly more, but not massively.

I think there have been improvements in stiffness/geometry in the last decade. Also I bought a Fox CTD shock in 2015 and XT discs this year and sure they are an improvement too. However, for me these are more like tweaks and don't change where/when/what I ride (whereas the 90s rigid -> Mount Vision did).

Thanks to the new "standards" my MV frame has almost no monetary value and I'm planning to keep it longer. So far I've had no problem buying 9 speed cassettes/chain rings and 26" tubes/tyres 🙂 I completely rebuilt my fork damper this year using standard "off the shelf" seals.

I do feel that compared to most industries, mountain bikes have came on hugely in even the last 5 years.

My car is an 11 year old mk2 focus and compared to the brand new cars in the work pool, there's no real difference in feel or performance. There's some nice features like built in sat nav etc and the engines have came on hugely in terms of economy but the actual feel of the cars is very similar. That said I've never had the chance to drive any real high end performance cars, they might have a greater difference.

Whereas riding a bike that's 5 years old is a bit crap compared to a modern one. 26" wheels feel tiny and get bogged down in anything rough compared to a 29er, then you have decent 1x systems, dropper posts, decent air sprung damping etc. Even boost has helped a lot on lt 29ers. I remember demoing a tallboy ltc and making the tyre rub on the chainstays in corners.

So yeah, prices are getting a bit silly, imo bikes have came on hugely, which sort of helps to justify it.

All the people saying the retro grouches are wrong because newer standard bikes are better are missing the point. If they are disenfranchised and actively choosing not to buy a new bike through cynicism then the effect is genuine. It might be a small amount of the market drop, but they are real and have been turned away from being consumers.

And the effect is obvious in disc road, after maybe 2 years of Q/R and post mount calipers we've gone bolt-thru and flat mount, so a lot of people bought into the next big thing only for it to become obsolete (and their bikes available for 40+% off new) by the end of the year. The major difference is roadies are even more conservative so I reckon rim brakes will be around a while yet.

If it is, I can't help feeling that it is self inflicted / bought about by the big corporate companies who drive a lot of this change. The likes of Trek and SRAM seem to be huge players in the Boost thing plus SRAM introducing shit like torque caps on their forks. Luckily a few of the smaller companies still try and make stuff backwards compatible (e.g. Hope.

The march of the new 'standards' does seem relentless these days. 1 1/8th steelers were around for ages, tapered came in but a tapered frame could still take your old forks. 104bcd chainrings were around for ages after the faff with 5 bolt now there's various direct mount options and about a million BCD's....SRAM don't even stick with one! My X11 cranks use a different BCD to X01....nuts.

I've traditionally swapped frames lots and transferred my bits over but I'm not sure I'll be able to do that next time around. Frames and odd bits like headsets and BB's are expensive enough but add in wheels and a fork and it's prohibitive. I won't buy a complete bike because I typically like what I like (I'm out vey about bars, saddles etc).

There's still plenty riding but I think people are keeping stuff longer especially guys like me who'd swap frames. The changes now are getting less dramatic so it's harder to see the benefits and if people are feeling the pinch I guess it's a harder sell.

I've traditionally swapped frames lots and transferred my bits over but I'm not sure I'll be able to do that next time around.

One idea where I don't know if it's stupid or not...:

guess you need around 250 "orders" to get extremely good rebates and "your custom frame" (frame based on existing bike model but with desired modifications).
Possible that we don't use our purchasing power in the best way possible?
Just brainstorming: 250 bikers with similar taste get - via internet - together, define an (aluminium) mountain bike and go out asking for bids.
What I guess: they get very, very good offers!

Rebates for drive train, wheels, hubs in the range of 85 percent maybe?
Rebates for high quality shocks, forks in the range of 75 percent maybe?
Full suspension aluminium frame - based onto existing model but with specified changes in the range of 150 bucks maybe?

Challenge: to get it organized.
Challenge: to get an insurance to cover the risk of the buyers and the risk of the supplier.

Could imagine that - when ordering 250 bikes - you might end paying maybe around 800 ... 1200 bucks for an excellent trail bike. Bit more for an excellent Enduro bike.
All bits and pieces like specified...

big corporate companies who drive a lot of this change

in this case - for the 250 bikes - these companies would loose power?

I'm still struggling with this discussion. Where has the line in the sand been drawn? Nothing better has been made since the XYZ in 2012?

So people aren't buying new bikes because of pointless new standards, but they'd be buying new bikes if they were the same as their old ones? Eh?

all kind of interesting arguments in this discussion.
Yes:

I'm still struggling with this discussion

The conclusion is - maybe - way too many

pointless new standards

which were - maybe - created to make the 2 year old bikes quickly obsolete?
And the customers lost the trust into this type of game?

Not sure by myself.
But very possible so...?
😕

250 bikers with similar taste get - via internet - together, define an (aluminium) mountain bike and go out asking for bids.
What I guess: they get very, very good offers!

While I quite like the idea, there are pitfalls, for starters are these 250 riders all the same height/build? Or will you be organising a range of sizes? Which particular group of "retro grouches" are you looking to satisfy? The ones bemoaning the demise of 135mm QRs or 142 x12mm bolt through? Seatpost sizes? Those who want stealth droppers accommodating or those who still think droppers are a fad? 44mm head tube? Or full on 44-56 taper? And then there's going to be agreeing a set of numbers for reach/head & seat angles, BB drop chain stay length, and just how "retro" are we talking wheel size wise? 26er? 26er that will accommodate 27.5? What about the 29erists? How about offering some sort of swapouts that allows you to tweak the back end to suit your chosen wheels/axles? And some arse will inevitably decide steel is real and pull out...

I reckon it would be a fraught exercise, hence most of the existing companies have just gone "bollox to it, we might as well just fall in line with SRAM and Co"

I'm still struggling with this discussion. Where has the line in the sand been drawn? Nothing better has been made since the XYZ in 2012?

Dropper posts. There has been no significant improvement in mountain biking since dropper posts came out.

My boost wheeled 2018 bike is excellent, yeah it's not backwards compatible with any of my other stuff, so my old carbon wheels are being sold, which sucks, but I'll save up for some new boost ones eventually.
In the meantime in stuck with a brilliant bike that's a step up from the brilliant bike I last bought in 2014.

The recent price rises have kept me at the base spec model, tho, which kinda sucks but I didn't like Brexiters anyway 😉

Ever since I lusted after my first rigid chromolly Kona in the 90s mtbing has been a ****in expensive hobby.

The other side of that, I really enjoy riding my new 29er but no more than my Hahanna, its better but my enjoyments the about same.

On road bikes almost every part of my 2005 Allez is compatible with my 2013 Bianchi. The Allez will be getting an upgrade groupset and wheels this year because short of spending 3k I cant buy anything better that doesnt look isnt compromised with cable discs, old standard or mis matched axles, half groupset, poor wheels etc.
I think the markets just trying to rinse a bit too much out the customers at the moment and they can smell it.

crashtestmonkey - Member
All the people saying the retro grouches are wrong because newer standard bikes are better are missing the point. If they are disenfranchised and actively choosing not to buy a new bike through cynicism then the effect is genuine. It might be a small amount of the market drop, but they are real and have been turned away from being consumers.

Don’t really understand hate on torque caps.

Yes, they’re just trying to reinvent the 20mm axle feel with a 15mm unit, but they’re entirely optional. You can mount a regular wheel in a torque cap fork with no ill effects, you just don’t get the stiffness increase.

One idea where I don't know if it's stupid or not...:

guess you need around 250 "orders" to get extremely good rebates and "your custom frame" (frame based on existing bike model but with desired modifications).
Possible that we don't use our purchasing power in the best way possible?
Just brainstorming: 250 bikers with similar taste get - via internet - together, define an (aluminium) mountain bike and go out asking for bids.
What I guess: they get very, very good offers!

Rebates for drive train, wheels, hubs in the range of 85 percent maybe?
Rebates for high quality shocks, forks in the range of 75 percent maybe?
Full suspension aluminium frame - based onto existing model but with specified changes in the range of 150 bucks maybe?

Challenge: to get it organized.
Challenge: to get an insurance to cover the risk of the buyers and the risk of the supplier.

Could imagine that - when ordering 250 bikes - you might end paying maybe around 800 ... 1200 bucks for an excellent trail bike. Bit more for an excellent Enduro bike.
All bits and pieces like specified...

you mean like this one

https://www.mtb-news.de/forum/f/internet-community-bike-2-0-powered-by-alutech.264/

im not sure why you would expect anyone to give you a bike for less than it would cost them to make though, the common theme in bike making is everyone wants you to make it for sweet FA

oh and herding cats springs to mind

BruceWee - Member

Dropper posts. There has been no significant improvement in mountain biking since dropper posts came out.

- Tubeless-ready tyres? As opposed to bodging a regular tyre.
- 1xN with N>=10 and sprockets with 40 or more teeth?
- Oval chainrings
- Lemon drizzle cake.

enigmas - Member
mountain bikes have came on hugely in even the last 5 years.
Whereas riding a bike that's 5 years old is a bit crap compared to a modern one.

A whole five years old? That old?? With those crap 26” wheels maybe, the ones that get “bogged down” over anything rough? Compared to those new 27” ones that is, because that extra inch makes all the difference.