So after toiling through 2/3rds of a CX season, I've apparently gained just enough fitness to finally nail my turbo workouts (the workouts I was only doing... to get fit for CX season 🙄 ).
Anyway, really happy with my efforts last night, 5:30pm by the time I was on bike and warming up, off-bike by 6:30pm, dinner, shower etc. That's pretty typical, working hours don't really allow for earlier workouts and morning or lunchtime workouts just leave me unable to concentrate for the rest of the day at work!
But how do you get any sort of decent sleep after an early evening workout?
I've tried magnesium supplements and to be honest do plan to get some more, but I was never sure they worked. Funnily enough Facebook is now throwing adverts for 'Night Powder' at me which comes with glowing endorsements and thousands of entirely-genuine-I'm-sure positive reviews, but also a £75/month price tag! That said if it was just something you took after individual workouts then you would get 28 workouts from a pouch so the £75 looks slightly less expensive.
I've read elsewhere about just eating a high protein snack afterwards can help, or a cold shower!
Any other tips?
Ta
Why is the sleep so bad, is it that you can't sleep, oir you gfet cramps or something?
FWIW, when I am turbo-ing (which is 3+ times a week from October to March) i frequently get cramps in my calves and tingling in my feet because I a) don't drink enough water after a session and b) sleep on my side so get a dead leg.
Which reminds me that I need to try Mg supplements and drink more water.
The only things that seem to make a difference to me (I still sleep badly but maybe slightly less bad) are eating lightly (rather than a massive meal) and having an extra bed cover as I tend to feel cold afterwards
Go to bed at 3am?
Tried that! Sitting here with bags under my eyes trying to review 200 pages of technical standards, it's hard going...
Why is the sleep so bad, is it that you can't sleep, oir you gfet cramps or something?
Physically fatigued but alert and awake, so I guess that's a cortisol thing.
I don't know about hydration but will try drinking ice water during and after next workout, try to keep core temp down. Maybe even a cold bath!
Do you stretch afterwards?
That can make the difference for me after a big ride.
It's probably high cortisol levels from the stress of the session. I found I had to do them before mid day. A recovery milkshake type drink (simple whey protein) before bed, magnesium and Aldi's sleep tea all help.
But if you're finishing by 6.30, surely your cortisol levels would have time to drop before bed?
FWIW (different sport but), I've found not going so deep into the red definitely helps; or more realistically, going into the red earlier in the session, with the second half staying more within my limits. Also fuelling a bit better during the session so I'm not quite as far gone by the end of the session.
That, plus something to eat just before bed, and a finger of whisky or similar to get me over, is abuot the best I've found - but still doesn't lead to perfect sleep.
I get this on a Thursday after club rides. Its not dreadful but its nowhere near as good a nights sleep as my other nights. May try that stretching thing as it does feel like its my legs keeping me awake.
I'd avoid any 'green' powders unless their is specific research on the ingredients they contain, I'm curious with lots of this stuff but if AI struggles to find evidence I'll not bother
I've started taking magnesium (3 in 1) to see if it's of benefit, as there's not another me being a control I'm not actually sure if it is but evidence is there for relaxation, I'm also on omega 3 and vit D but anyways...I used to get this after racing crits as the dopamine levels would be through the roof.
Rather than expensive powders i'd go classic, reduce screen times, read, reduce lighting and create a better sleep hygiene routine to enhance sleep, would probs cut down caffeine levels also, it's boring, I'd love a green powder that meant I didn't have to do that stuff but I really doubt they exist
I'm training quite heavy weights at the moment and although I nod off ok I always wake up at 3am for the toilet but put that down to age (45) and change to a healthier diet
May try that stretching thing as it does feel like its my legs keeping me awake.
Ditto, I've had some weird feelings in my legs some nights after exercise, the only way I could describe it is 'anxious' legs 😂
Stretching can't hurt at least, nor could a protein drink or the magnesium supplements.
Post-workout is one of the rare times in the evening that I'm almost physically repelled by the thought of a drink, especially whisky!
Twitchy, fizzy feeling legs?
Yep, thorough stretching is the answer IME. And a rehydration tab doesn't hurt, if it's been a big ride.
I've found a big difference in getting to sleep after a hard ride if I do a really easy 15 min yoga session* some time in the hour before bed. The stretching helps a bit, but I think it's more the focused breathing and mindful movement aspect of it. I suspect that one could get similar results from breathing meditation but I enjoy the yoga enough that I actually do it - not so true for meditating.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that trying stretching is a good idea, but it can be quite easy to approach it with the mindsed of an ATHLETE who is STRETCHING their MUSCLES for PERFORMANCE which might not be productive. So even if you're not going to do yoga, making sure that your stretching session is relaxing is a good idea IMO.
*usually the Recovery Booster session on the Wahoo app, but it's behind a paywall so I'm not sure how useful a recommendation it is for most.
Twitchy, fizzy feeling legs?
Well described! That's me after the regular evening group MTB ride. Can take a while to get to sleep, even worse in summer if nettle stings are added to the mix.
I'm traditionally an early activity person. Years of early morning swimming training throughout school and into uni, and now back at it 2-3/wk before work for the past couple of years. I struggle with exercise in late-evenings and actively avoid it where possible.
I'll be trying stretching afterwards too. I know I should be doing it anyway...
Ah, if it's twitchy, fizzy legs I have the solution (that works without fail for me).
Recovery tights/leggings.
I've been known to get up at 2am to put them on.
No idea if they help actual recovery, but they stop the twitching.
I find avoiding hard workouts helps. Prevention is better than cure.
Ah, if it's twitchy, fizzy legs I have the solution (that works without fail for me).
Recovery tights/leggings.
Actually for fear of being mocked I was trying to describe the feeling in the legs more accurately as an emotion, it's like my LEGS are worried or anxious, very weird. But yes I should be putting the stockings on, I already own some although I have a sneaking suspicion that they are one of the very long list of things which deter amorous advances from my wife, so I tend to only put them on when I'm absolutely sure that any additional workouts are off the cards 🙄
Stretching is funny, I pretty much neglect it entirely now as I am a disciple of Dylan Johnson who summarises a lot of research into stretching as just 'meh'. He doesn't really say don't do it though and it usually feels good so I might as well.
I find avoiding hard workouts helps. Prevention is better than cure.
Or maybe just be less anxious about "performance" in general. If you're permanently concerned about what/how much training you are doing then it's possible that's being carried over into sleep time.
As a commuter, I'm on the bike till around 6pm weekdays. I do suffer restless legs, especially after exercise, but I've been on magnesium supplements (nutrition geeks) for about 6 months. They make a difference and my sleep is much better (although having a rotator cuff tear on the right shoulder, and an ex. fractured pelvis on the left means I have to turn often due to pain).
I get this after evening/night rides, though as everything seems to be under water for the darkest 4 months of the year this is less of an issue now.
I also used to get this when I used to lift weights after toddler/small child bedtime which ended up being from 2000 to 2130, I swapped to training at 0545 until 0730 which solved it funnily enough.
Actually for fear of being mocked I was trying to describe the feeling in the legs more accurately as an emotion, it's like my LEGS are worried or anxious, very weird.
Yep, that's a good description along with a sort of restlessness that won't go away.
What I have found helps a bit is some intense foam-rollering. If you can really get your body weight into it, that makes the difference. I work my round to do calves, shins, quads, hamstrings / hip flexors and glutes not necessarily so it's painful but at least uncomfortable.
id be looking at overactive adrenal glands, which dont switch off like normal. But ive no idea if thats snake oil!
Actually for fear of being mocked I was trying to describe the feeling in the legs more accurately as an emotion, it's like my LEGS are worried or anxious, very weird
I get what you mean, it's a bit different for me but there's definitely an unusual anxiety element.
What I do is:
- Standing up, lift one leg up behind you, pulling your toes with your hand until you feel it relax a bit (then the other leg)
- Laying on your back, pull one leg towards your chin by hooking an arm under your knee (again, hold until you feel the tension go, then do the other leg)
- Might as well do some knee rolls while you're on the floor as well
I've only ever had bad sleep from cycling if I've done a 45-60min hard workout after dinner, or when I've got cumilative overtraining fatigue.
I found a few of things helped.
1) A Propper long cooldown, not the 5 minute taper the workout suggests, sit on the trainer at ~100W until you are properly bored. Give it a good 15minutes or more. For me that seems to let the body burn off any adrenaline, cortisol, whatever it was so I wasn't buzzing when i got off the bike.
2) Get out of 'cycling mode' ASAP. Off the bike, straight into the shower, no shakes, no supplements, no quick dinner, no STRAVA, get in the shower and into your pyjamas. Seems like it takes me a few hours to fall asleep after a ride, so the idea here is to get a head start on that.
3) Keep the meal light. Yes you need to refuel and recover, but a double portion of spag-boll and 3 hours sleep isn't it. On weeknights with riding I tend to have a 2nd lunch around 4:30, something quick and easy like those pouches of chickpea curry or lentils to keep me going, and then a small stir-fry (the smaller posher containers of veg, not the 500g of beansprouts) with 100g tofu when I'm done.
Counter intuitively I actually find a little sugar helps me fall asleep. If I make myself a proper posh hot-chocolate around 8:30, then 90min after that the subsequent crash knocks me out like a lightbulb!
Not necessarily exercise related but I used to get horrendous restless legs during the night - can't keep them still or get comfy, feel like I want to give them an almighty stretch to make it go away but it doesn't work.
What I found that helped (and I can't remember how I discovered this!) was to march on the spot, raising my knees as high as possible to my chest, I'd count to 60 of these (so 30 per leg) and do it as a quite high cadence which would get my breathing rate up which seems counter-intuitive to getting oneself to sleep, but when I went back to bed after doing this the restless legs were gone and I could sleep again. My theory was that I was doing it vigorously enough to get the blood flowing to my legs and that it was maybe clearing some excess fluid or something like that.
But if you're finishing by 6.30, surely your cortisol levels would have time to drop before bed?
Perhaps depends on the level of training stress. If sleep is interrupted because your heartrate is raised it may be a sign it's still high and hasn't dropped enough?
IANADr but my guess / ime is it doesn't take much post-exercise stress for some people to see an effect on dropping off to sleep. Perhaps it's cortisol or other stress reactions. For me, whatever the actual cause it's a higher HR and a more pronounced beat that makes dropping off less easy than normal. I found during a block of sessions (say 6-8 weeks and over) it reduces as I adapt to the training.
Stretching and ibuprofen (sometimes) works for me
But if you're finishing by 6.30, surely your cortisol levels would have time to drop before bed?
I think this might be the issue, I go to bed very early (often 8:30pm) so perhaps this compounds the effect of working out in the evening, I have less of a window to de-stress.
Plus at the moment I'm only working out indoors max once a week, if not once a fortnight, so I go hard to hit the zones I'm not hitting outdoors, it's a lot of time spent above 95% max HR 🤮
Stretching and ibuprofen (sometimes) works for me
I'd read various things about ibuprofen impeding the very adaptations that you're trying to achieve from training! I suspect it's one of those things that only affects elite level athletes but it's scared me off using it unless absolutely necessary...
Have you tried going to bed early and doing your exercise 90 minutes before your current getting-up time?
CBD oil helps.
I've found Ashwaghanda combined with Magnesium Bisglycinate is helping my current disturbed sleep, and the Ashwaghanda apparently helps to counteract cortisol so if that is an issue then it could help.
On around 18:30, hour or so of intervals plus around 20 minutes Z1/2 cooling down…then straight in the shower and pasta afterwards…plenty of water and maybe a glass of wine as a night cap, generally sleep really well even when my legs are twitching!
Ibuprofen works when my legs are really sore.
Have you tried keeping an eye on your heart rate after exercise? Covid f@£$% me up for a while and once I started getting back into exercise I couldn't sleep after a moderately hard workout. I realised my heart rate was staying high quite a long time after any exercise. (palpitations/arrythmia funny heart rate was something covid left me with cortisol related I think) no wonder going to bed with my heart rate at 70 bpm when ordinarily my it should be in the 40s was a struggle! I stuck with it and eventually went back to normal i.e. heart rate went back to normal after a workout and I could get to sleep.
Echoing what most other people are saying...stretch!
When I've got restless legs at night (which can also be brought on by a day or two of inactivity), I sometimes have get up around 2am to do a stretching routine. I find it's usually my calves and hamstrings.
It's bloody annoying!
I've found Ashwaghanda combined with Magnesium Bisglycinate is helping my current disturbed sleep, and the Ashwaghanda apparently helps to counteract cortisol so if that is an issue then it could help.
I bought some Ashwaghanda from nutrition geeks when topping up on Magnesium supplements and have never actually taken it, good time to start it seems. Do you take it regularly or just ad-hoc?
Finding this thread interesting. OP doesn't say what time they're trying to go to sleep, but for many years I was usually riding home (c50 mins, sprint training between lights effectively) sometime between 6 and 730 each night. It was unavoidable so never even considered it may have been upsetting my sleep. But I never really got into night riding as I could never sleep afterwards (and that was with an hour long drive home afterwards). I've never found sleep easy even at the best of times so just stopped doing it.
K has been complaining about having trouble sleeping (and rarely ever has) so we're just about to try magnesium.
I saw this recommended online and bought some. I was really dubious, but have been using it for the last couple of weeks and I do seem to be slipping off a lot easier. www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B006VT8G1O?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title&th=1
Going to bed at 2030ish is a crucial piece of the puzzle, so only ~2 hours after hard exercise.
When I struggled, it was exercising hard around 1900, with aim of being in bed around 2200 due to 0515 alarm when I was a postie.
With Ashwagandha, I take it regularly as I have been having trouble sleeping for a while, make sure it's the ksm66 stuff as well, I take it with the magnesium supplement about an hour before bed, it seems to be helping.
I'd read various things about ibuprofen impeding the very adaptations that you're trying to achieve from training! I suspect it's one of those things that only affects elite level athletes but it's scared me off using it unless absolutely necessary...
I think like a lot of things it's "marginal gains".
You can't get past that fundamentally what works is consistent structured training, consistent nutrition, and 8 hours sleep. Everything else is supplementary and playing in the margins.
I've read the same study (or a similar one) and while it's true, nonsteroidal anti inflammatories decrease inflammation, and to an extent it's that inflammation that helps your body recover so they hinder that. I've seen others that put the difference between getting 7 hours sleep and 8+ hours at close to 50% more gains. If it gets you 2 hours more sleep, it's probably worth it.
After years of working 12 hour watches while at sea, doing a workout afterwards, and before sleep is stupid. All manner of cooldown, relaxation, eating, reading whatever, fails to provide restful sleep.
Better to get in my bunk soon after watch, get up early and use the workout to wake me up and get the juices flowing.
Going to bed at 2030ish is a crucial piece of the puzzle, so only ~2 hours after hard exercise.
I'd missed that. Not just going to bed only 2 hours after hard exercise but packing in a meal and a shower as well. So you're going to bed on a full stomach as well. that's not helping. Normal advice is 2-3 hours after a meal.
What time are you getting up in the morning if you're going to bed at 830 at night?
What time are you getting up in the morning if you're going to bed at 830 at night?
Usually awake from about 5am, downstairs with a coffee to say hello to the cats for about 6am (my favourite time of day before the rest of the family gets up 😂).
I don't typically do hard workouts in the morning, apart from just not feeling like it I don't like how I feel for the rest of the working day! Probably no worse than I do after a night of little sleep though...
I think lunchtime workouts are the way forward, I can probably get away with one longer lunch a week.
Have had a couple of sleep seminars at work from someone who works with athletes on their sleep. They didn't talk about supplements at all, the main thing they really tried to hammer home was the importance of a routine i.e. go to sleep and get up the same time +-1 hour every day. Obviously that's kind of hard to achieve in the real world. I personally train about 7-9pm and find it hard to shut down after that. They said not to try and force it and instead just do something calm, whatever it takes to relax and eventually feel sleepy.