[Closed] Surly bikes - all they are cracked up to be?

mate in the trade reckons they are not. he is a singular fan though

I like Surly, and they often make bikes to satisfy a purpose that nobody else does. However, I do get the feeling that by the time they've made it over here they are not the same good value as they are in the USA, and when competing like-for-like, eg a regular mtb hard tail vs a regular mtb hard tail, they don't always have the most up to date geometry.

Depends what you are after.

Surly make simple, no nonsense, steel bikes. If thats what you are after they are great.

I built up a Surly Ogre for dirt road touring in remote and wild landscapes its yet to let me down.

If you want to see where the Ogre has taken me check out my blog: www.mikehowarth.co.uk.

Love my 1x1 as a winter snot bike but a race bike it is not.

EDIT: Although I did ride it to 7th placed 4hr Vet in the snot-fest that was the first ever Brass Monkeys race.

I believe they are bicycles for having fun on.....so yes.

I have made use of a Big Dummy and a Karate Monkey.

The Monkey was a little disappointing and is no longer with me, although I think that was because of the colour - I really wanted the original Camp Stove Green.

The Big Dummy is the single best bike in the history of awesome. Everything about it is brilliantly done and it spews out fun faster than you can catch it in a bucket. Literally life-changing.

I very much doubt you can make yourself want a Surly by looking at their specs though - every one of their bikes I've fancied I've just thought "[i]yeah[/i]" as soon as I saw it. It hits the same brain-parts as Kona catalogues from about 1998.

To translate my own brain - there is a lot of image going on, but the image that you have of yourself, your bike and how and why you ride is one of the things that keep you coming out to ride.

But Rohrschach, thats just an advert of people doing things I could do on my old steel Raleigh.

I do concede that a few products look useful, but I have always found something else which seemed to be a better spec for the moeny.

Their paint stands up to a lot more abuse than all the other bikes I've had.

..and their stickers are conveniently 'removable' 😉

Where Surly excel is utilitarian bikes. Take the Ogre, 29er chromo frame with horizontal drops capable of running single speed or Rohloff, braze on for racks and guards, disk and rim brake compatible.

You'll be hard pressed to find many other frames that can offer that and for dirt road touring to my mind its pretty much the ultimate base frame to build around, I should know I spent a long time looking round!

Compare the Cross Check with another CX bike and you are likely to go for the other bike if you are purely looking at the spec and price.

They also [i]build[/i] niches. I reckon most Surly bikes that have serious mass-market competition are probably out-classed (on a rational, specifications basis).

But by the time that competition arrives Surly have gone on and come up with something else.

You reckon the Krampus looks awesome? It's currently best in class. In 5 year's time Trek may well be making something considerably better value to the same pattern.

Specialized, Kona and Trek each have a Fat Bike in the line-up this year. Any of them may well be better than the Pugsley. But Surly first built the Pug what, 6 years ago?

Part of it, in other words, is trusting Surly to come up with stuff that you're going to enjoy. 🙂

or if you actually want a 'proper' cross bike. the cross check is a lovely frame ( i have one ), but if you actually want to rag a bike around a field every sunday for an hour you'd probably pick something more focussed. i don't think their full bikes are great value, and really, their frames aren't either. certainly not at list.
as above though, sometimes you can buy a type of bike from surly that you won't find anywhere else, yet. they are what they are really. take it or leave it. some of their bikes have been way ahead of their time, some seem to stand still.
they only just got on the disc/cx thing with the straggler, which seemed like a very obvious thing to do to me, and i'd be interested to know how the sales of those stack up to the cross check over the next few years, but hey - i'm not in the bike business.
i'm not all that surprised you don't find a LT hardtail in their line up as apparently that's quite a UK specific thing, and they're trying to sell bikes world-wide.
having said all that, when was the last time you saw someone from specialized, or trek, or giant doing ssuk, and talking crap round the fire after? it's not encouraging me to support their business out of charity, but you don't buy things from people you don't like, do you? same applies to brands.

From what I can tell, they make (some) weird bikes for people who want to do weird things with them out of non-fancy tubing etc. Basically the same as a lot of smaller 'niche' companies.

I have a Karate Monkey and I've had a 1x1 and a crosscheck. I choose my bikes on merit not on brand or coolness.
Surly make great no nonsense bikes for riding. They are not flash, they are not race bikes they are bikes that last and represent good value for money.
I think some of what they do is lost in translation over here and particularly on STW. They are bikes that are made to be ridden without pretense.
As for the cross check I'd look at it more as a cross bike platform on which you can build a monster cross, tourer, Audax, SS/Fixed or even a 29er MTB. That is why they are liked. If you want an out and out Cross racer then a crosscheck is not for you.

A bit like O-O in an Ammerican market? They probably look at the 456 and wonder why? The Ammericans don't 'do' LTHT's, yet untill cycling became the new golf and FS became cheep, that was all anyone rode.

Whereas in the States there are fire/dirt roads that go on for hundreds of miles, so a dirt road touring is a legitimate niche, whereas over here you can just stick to the (tarmaced) lanes and still do LEJOG in under a week.

That and the USA is a relatively huge market compared to the UK. If one person in the UK wants a fat rear, 29er front with pannier racks and dynamo mounts for "post hemeroid treatment, dirt road night time touring" then there'll be 100 in the USA, enough for a production run.

If you dont see the point of one of their bikes then you're not that tiny minority who need/want one.

I've got two Surlys; a Cross Check and a Karate Monkey. The Cross Check is the most versatile and useful bike I've ever owned. Its also very comfy and handles well. The Karate Monkey has always been a bit of a let down. My Singular Swift outclasses it in every possible way. That said the KM is proving useful as a tough urban bike/ winter hack, mainly because it can take a hell of a lot of abuse and can rebuilt with any drivetrain/ wheel/ brake combination I want as and when I break stuff.

mate in the trade reckons they are not

Had my Cross Check resprayed by Argos Cycles in the summer. The chap I dealt with was very impressed by the quality of the frame. Not light weight but very well made.

my surly lht is built like a tank........just like it's driver.
horses for courses innit.............. 8)

Surley bikes are just heavy and flexy, unless you want to join the particular niche bike they invented then I'd avoid. If you want something made from steel that's heavy, and slack angled go find your granddad's bike, that's what Surley are selling re-badged. Prices by the time they get to the UK aren't good either.

Del says:
[i]i'm not all that surprised you don't find a LT hardtail in their line up as apparently that's quite a UK specific thing, and they're trying to sell bikes world-wide.[/i]

The instigator is back for 2014 with 26+ wheels 🙂

They are simply products aimed at a certain type(s) of consumer. you can't really blame Surly if you are not in their target market, if someone else caters for your requirements (including price point) buy from them...

If I was assembling a round the world tourer or a bike-packing machine then their products would be more on my radar, like the OP I know myself to be a bit of a cheapskate and yeah there are other, lower priced, similar alternatives, but not every Buying decision is based purely on costs, you judge these things on merit when you come to make the decision.

As for Brand Image? Yeah, like any company a proportion of what Surly sell will be to aspirational customers who don't really need what they are buying or really understand the product, but are attracted by the rufty tuffty, outdoorsy image, the Niche-ness and no doubt see a higher price point as a inferring some degree of "Taste" or "status"... its their money and their choice, you can't really have a go...

Some people "Lust" after Yeti bikes some get in a Froth over anything with a Cotic logo, most people understand that these are simply products which you might want to buy, if they fit your needs...

I am curious whether all Surlys are actually that good or just hype and image.

dragon - Member
Surley bikes are just heavy and flexy,

can i just ask

a. have you ridden one
b. how heavy are you

I'm considering a Cross Check at the moment and can't find anything the right size, new & in-stock cheaper that ticks the same box's. Steel frame, canti's, and braze-on's for guards and rack. I should have bought the old Kaffenback when I had the chance in hindsight.

I'm racing CX this year on a SS Cross Check with a carbon fork (the Surly fork weighs about a million kg) - its going alright, pretty sure I'd place a bit higher with a carbon, geared crosser, but the Surly feels bombproof but ace to ride.

I was lucky enough to visit Surly HQ when I was last in the states and spending some time in Minneapolis does explain where the brand comes from, it's flat, it's got a very vibrant bike culture and it's chuffing cold.

They design bikes that work for the riding they want to do and they aren't afraid to experiment, that has to be worth a degree of admiration even if the frames aren't exactly space age in construction.

Innovative small production-run items sold through a distributor and bike shop are never going to the best value, if that's your number 1 priority, buy a Canyon.

I found my cross check heavy and flexy. They dont seem to have much engineering thought put inot them, just some basic tubes welded into a bike frame.

their steel framed cross/touring/utility frames are built like any other standard triangle frame has ever been built.
have a look for touring frames from the 30's/40's/50's/60's.
oh, and they all still work....would you believe it.

have a look for touring frames from the 30's/40's/50's/60's.

Yeh, that's the thing - we're in the 21st century now!

I demand fancy tub profiles and butted tubing, not some undersized gas pipe!

Yes, in a word. Especially if you think solid and versatile rather than latest and greatest.

Several years back I struggled to find a touring frame with big tyre clearance and all the braze ons, for less than the price of the LHT (£300 IIRC). Since then it's done a fair few thousand miles of commuting and long day rides all over the place and is always a lovely ride. It now sports a child seat and front rack for ferrying our nipper around.

I never actually fitted the touring niche, I've never gone touring, I just wanted a decent, solid, road bike, which is what that was.

I'm aware I could have found all that in my grandads road bike, but nobody much else (other than some other niche companies or custom builders, all who cost more at the time) is selling those any more.

I have no reason to suspect their other frames are any different.

Other small companies may also make perfectly nice bike stuff that fits your needs. Etc.

I considered a crosscheck and a steamroller and concluded they were overpriced and overweight.

But horses for courses and all that.

Yeh, that's the thing - we're in the 21st century now!

and you reckon a bike built today is better??

I am curious whether all Surlys are actually that good or just hype and image.

Oh yeah...Surly is all about image:

[img] [/img]

If you take their cut and paste / self-consciously fanzine marketing message with a pinch of salt and unless you actually aspire to be like the bloke in the picture above, I think Surly are actually one of the least hyped brands out there.

Their logos fall off just from looking at a hosepipe so they're about as stealthy a choice as you can buy.

As above they just do great, durable, versatile, no-nonsense bikes. One of the reason why they're a lot of folk's go-to choice for long distance touring. I'm guessing that if you're riding to Ulan Bator then the last thing on your mind is image.

Own an 1x1 and a KM and very happy with both of them. I love the fact that both bikes ride really well but wouldn't look out of place if I rode into a wormhole and emerged in 1926.

and you reckon a bike built today is better??

Yes!

[quote=hatter ]Innovative small production-run items sold through a distributor and bike shop are never going to the best value, Surly are part of QBP, one of the largest bike companies. Like Salsa, they prefer to keep the brand looking a lot more "niche" than it perhaps is.

Having said that, I met a couple of the guys from Surly when they popped over to the UK last year and joined us at the Forth Fatbike meeting. They were a bit taken aback by the enthusiasm they met and the range of trails we rode over here (they weren't looking forward to endless beaches). They also joined us in the pub afterwards. I can't imagine any of the head honchos from Specialized, Trek, Giant etc doing the same.

That doesn't mean the bikes are any better/worse than anyone else's - it's just that they have a certain added attraction for some folk.

They make interesting stuff and create new type of riding (fat, uber fat, 29 x 3, utility), but some of the other/basic stuff (single speeds, cross etc) is to me overpriced and plain.

how are they expensive??
i have owned 2 x karate monkey frames and 3 x lht frames from new.
never payed more than £300 for a frame.

can someone show me a strong tough steel touring frame for £300 or less.

ton - Member
how are they expensive??
i have owned 2 x karate monkey frames and 3 x lht frames from new.
never payed more than £300 for a frame.

I'm talking RRP, are you?

do you ever buy anything RRP Al? does anyone.

I'm sure some of the bikes they make are great.

The cross check I had wasn't great for what I used it for (road and fireroad/light tail riding). I know it's a "do it all" so I guess they had to make compromises.

But I bought a Genesis after having it for two months, this was cheaper (granted it wasn't at RRP) but it rides far better.

I think some of the brands like Genesis or Cotic look as thoguh they have had some thought put into them. The Surly was very basic. I'm sure if they'd have thought to just spec an oversize downtube or seattube, it would have helped with the flexyness.

I don't really care whether they are or not tbh
But Mike Howarth's link to his blog is a great read... 😀

How have we managed to get this far in a thread with the words "Surly" and "cracked" in the title without mentioning the, err, Pugsley problem?

@emac Thank You!

Nice to see Singletrack doesn't change much since I last checked in 3 months ago. I'll go back to riding my Ogre for another 8 months, whilst you all pontificate on the brands merits 😉

As I see it bikes are meant to be ridden just like the guys at Surly do, I obviously identify with the brand and it's products. Its not for everyone otherwise there would only be one bike brand and the world would be a very dull place.

Let the bun fight continue 😉

Yup, love my Krampus. Solid and fun.
Lightweight is overrated!

Also I second the comment about the Surly guys - they were a nice bunch to hang out with during last year's SSUK, and I have the hat to prove it 😉

Surly bikes weren't on my radar at all until SSUK.
Tyler from Surly tagged along with us for our 'compact but with extra pub stops' version of the course and his Krampus, with frame bag containing beer, food and loads of other junk seemed to be the perfect bike for what we were doing, namely bumbling around the countryside getting tipsier and tipsier & slower and slower. The fact that the guys from the company were such good eggs (in a brash American style at times) endears their product to me much more than their advertising strategy.
They seem to be the sort of bikes that fill those odd little gaps in the market that you could cover with anything else but it wouldn't be exactly the right thing, or just bikes for having a laugh on.
I'll certainly be paying CTBM a visit after Christmas to look at getting a Krampus sorted.

Bubbles, my karate monkey, is a beast. That is all

Buy a bike you like riding. That said, the surly chaps are ace & that goes a long way in my book.

I do like their approach to trying stuff some other manufacturers wouldn't even dream of putting out there.

That said, even tho' I do look like a scruffier version of the chap in the photograph, I don't actually own one, but only because [i]my[/i] particular niche needs are perfectly fulfilled by another (steel-frame) company.

I do use their [branded] hubs on a lot of my wheel builds.

I have a SteamRoller singlespeed commuter. Mud guards and rack. Its nothing special, but its my commuter so do more miles on that than any other. Its not the lightest, but it certainly is comfy and very nice to ride. Cant fault it. Had a crosscheck too which I only sold as was too small.

I find Surly quite an innovative company. Loved the pugsly and the Krampus when they came out. Was there/is there anything to compare with these? The Karate Monkey was the standard for steel 29ers long before others. I think people see then as dull because their models stay for a long period of time - which is a testament to their good no frills design.

Surly is the bike you pick to do the job and not worry about beating it about a bit. The slightly extra weight means it can take it. The USA equivalent of the steel On-Ones.

A rider's bike.

epicycle talks sense....as per usual. 8)

I demand fancy tub profiles and butted tubing, not some undersized gas pipe!

The story I got from a salesperson (I think he was complaining about the price of a complete Surly build vs. other similar brands but it may have been a cunning reverse-psycology sales pitch) was that Surly actually invest more time and effort into the details you don't see, like internally rustproofing their frames, and frame size specific butting as opposed to just butting a standard length of tube and then cutting it down.

I'm still torn between a Straggler and a Traitor Crusade but that's a different thread...

Got a cross check primarily for commuting to work. It's also currently my only working bike so I also use it instead of my mountain bike off road.

It's not the lightest thing in the world but I'm not worried that I might break it. Angles are nice.

If I wanted a race bike I'd buy a race bike. The cross check does everything I need and more.

I'm a bit past caring if its trendy or not and I'm not bothered how others might perceive it or the company. For what I want it for its a great frame.

I really enjoy riding it.

But Surly first built the Pug what, 6 years ago?

a fatty on a pugsley on 25/6/2006 according to the EXIF so a bit longer than that
[img] [/img]

Krampus was a laugh.
A right laugh. 🙂
Planning on building onto some RH rims when I need new wheels on my SIR.9.

My Long Haul Trucker takes my 16 or 17 stone, up to 30 pounds of panniers and gear plus up to 7 litres of water and carries it for thousands of miles without a trace of shimmy or anything but rock solid predictable handling at any speed. It wipes the floor with my previous tourer a 531 framed Dawes Galaxy. I've no idea about Surly's other offerings but for a traditional loaded tourer they have got it right.

Part of the reason I cycle is to improve my fitness, so I see extra weight as resistance training.
Also I could loose a lot more pounds then any Surly frameset.

I've been thinking about replacing my Solaris with something more 'fun' so tried a Krampus at the weekend. It's not a light bike, around 30lbs, but didn't feel too bad on the climbs despite my weary legs after 4 hours biking before this. It was very comfy but still felt responsive. The only issues I could see would be making low gears work as there was tyre contact using the small chainring and larger rear gears. Not a cheap bike for a fully rigid either. Frame, fork and built wheels would be around £1200.
It was very different and fun though!

+1 for the Steamroller, one of my all time favourite bikes. Currently have a Troll which I'm super happy with.
I find that their website tells you the whats, hows and whys about their stuff in plain, no-nonsense language rather than the marketing guff and weasel words that you so often get. Plus they have a sense of humour which puts a smile on my face and that reminds me of the reason why I ride a bike in the first place.

The USA equivalent of the steel On-Ones

No disrespect to OO/PX, as they do what they do very well, but my take is that Surly's steel is a notch up in terms of tubing quality.

FWIW If I'd been a few quid shorter at the time, I'd have chosen the Kaffenback and not the LHT.

I commute on a Cross-Check & it does the job nicely, despite being roundly abused on various highways and byways. It's something of a tank compared to a proper CXer, but it's entirely fit for [my] purpose.

Being from the States I saw Surly evolve from it's early Years. Like it's beeen mentioned already. Surly is great for taking nitch bikes and mass producing them. They did it with Single Speed, Somewhat with 29ers, and now with Fatbikes.The marketing has been spot on.I own a Cross Check and Pugsly. I have owned a K Monokey. They've all been solid and reliable.Lets be honest, there's also "street cred " factor to owning a Surly. Here in the US fatbikes are exploding. Surly started all of that

I find that their website tells you the whats, hows and whys about their stuff in plain, no-nonsense language rather than the marketing guff and weasel words that you so often get. Plus they have a sense of humour which puts a smile on my face and that reminds me of the reason why I ride a bike in the first place.

Ironing.

Er....no.

Anyone own one of the 2014 Ogre complete bikes? Interested to hear some owner's opinions...

There was a thread on a high brow American site basically lots of folks who bought one think they are trash and buy something else once the trendy name has fallen by the wayside, a bit like the US version of NICHE On-One they were likened to.

[b]I like:[/b]
Decent steel frames, well thought out and some excellent touches.
Someone really cares about the finished product and how it's likely to be used.

Very innovative.

Tough simple paintjobs.
[b]
I don't like:[/b]
The image:
They appeal to a certain type of person who defines themselves by what they buy, rather than what they do and who judges others based on the same criteria.
I think this is a minority of their customers, but in the UK a significant one nontheless.

They are owned by a huge company, bikes are mass produced in Taiwan, yet charge ridiculous prices for very poorly specced full builds.

shermer75 - Member

I find that their website tells you the whats, hows and whys about their stuff in plain, no-nonsense language rather than the marketing guff and weasel words that you so often get. Plus they have a sense of humour which puts a smile on my face and that reminds me of the reason why I ride a bike in the first place.

See that 'sense of humour'?
That's the marketing guff, in disguise.

I met a bunch of the Surly guys at SSWC04 in Berlin.
Great bunch, and that sense of humour? Probably representative of their staff to be honest.

I bought a Karate Monkey this year and have had a pair of their Instigator forks for years on my singlespeed. I have also used their cogs, singlespeed tensioners etc.

They make good solid slightly different to the norm but refreshingly bullshit free kit for people who like to ride bikes. If you're into the latest carbon, shock technology, etc etc wonder bikes they are probably not for you.

Are they good VFM? Most of their framesets are £400-£500 which includes a fork, doesn't seem too bad to me. Lots of nice useful features on their frames too which adds cost, so they aren't cookie cutter Ally frames by any stretch of the imagination.

Their complete builds are probably a bit overpriced but I always buy frames and spec them to my taste.

The image:
They appeal to a certain type of person who defines themselves by what they buy, rather than what they do and who judges others based on the same criteria.
I think this is a minority of their customers, but in the UK a significant one nontheless.

I don't think there are many comments on here that sum up the Uk's mtb market better than this.

I'd say the vast majority of bikes are bought by people who feel they associate themselves with that brand. I fit that XXX stereotype so i'll buy a XXX.

[quote=Singlespeed_Shep ]I'd say the vast majority of bikes are bought by people who feel they associate themselves with that brand. I fit that XXX stereotype so i'll buy a XXX.
Not at all. The vast majority of bikes are bought by folk that go into Halfords/Decathlon/generic store and like the colour.

[quote=Rusty Spanner ]

shermer75 - Member
I find that their website tells you the whats, hows and whys about their stuff in plain, no-nonsense language rather than the marketing guff and weasel words that you so often get. Plus they have a sense of humour which puts a smile on my face and that reminds me of the reason why I ride a bike in the first place.

Not at all. The vast majority of bikes are bought by folk that go into Halfords/Decathlon/generic store and like the colour.

Yes fair point, i should have said higher end, premium bikes.

BillOddie - Member

They make good solid slightly different to the norm but refreshingly bullshit free kit for people who like to ride bikes.

I agree.
They're the kind of simple, fun bikes everyone should be able to enjoy.
So why not price them realistically and market them accordingly?

If you're into the latest carbon, shock technology, etc etc wonder bikes they are probably not for you.

Why not?
Why the devisiveness?

They are owned by a huge company, bikes are mass produced in Taiwan, yet charge ridiculous prices for very poorly specced full builds.

I went from a Pompino to a Crosscheck frame/fork. Direct parts swap-over. CC was much more comfy, especially the fork. It also had more mud clearance front and back. So yeah, they may be more expensive but people buy more expensive but still mass-produced alu/carbon bikes because of better features. Same applies to steel.

I should qualify, i now have a CC, LHT and Instigator (not the new one tho) so I may be a fan-boy. FYI, the instigator is also better than the On-one that it replaced.

Not ridden either, sadly, though both on the current short list. 🙂

If you look at the full price builds of the Kaff and the Straggler the difference is ridiculous.
The Surly is almost twice the price.

Design differences and ride preferences aside, I couldn't live with that.

^ route to market makes most of that difference there. Surly is a US-owned brand, so is sold in the UK by a distributor, then into a retailer - there's a margin (often a slim one these days..) at every stage and that adds to the RRP. It can also have other advantages, or not, depends on the buyer.
I know where Surly and Salsa come from and it's a good factory, not the cheapest but they can do good stuff there. As usual tho you only get what you ask for and I see a decent amount of custom tube bends, dropouts etc in Surly stuff, they have the volumes to do it but that's because they're a big US brand - so we're back to the distribution thing again.

I've owned many Surlys. My Karate Monkey is my favourite bike, Pugsley up there with it alonside my 1X1 with 2.5 tyres commuter. Thet just produce bikes I want to ride. Not light, but they'll probably outlast me.
The Jones is long gone, basically it wasn't £2000 more fun than the Karate Monkey. The factory are a joy to deal with. Who else would advise how to fit really weirdly sized tyes on one of their frames.

jameso - Member

^ route to market makes most of that difference there.

Ta for the reply.

But nearly 100% difference?
Really?

I'd like to see a breakdown of the figures.
I wonder what percentage of the increase is 'niche tax'?

I just ordered a Troll frame to build up for trail, commuting and touring, I like the do it all ability of the bikes, the one I tested felt solid but not as heavy as it actually weighed.

[quote=Rusty Spanner ]
I wonder what percentage of the increase is [s]'niche tax'[/s] for customer support?
FTFY

simonk - Member
I just ordered a Troll frame to build up for trail, commuting and touring, I like the do it all ability of the bikes, the one I tested felt solid but not as heavy as it actually weighed.

Awesome frame. Orange?