Help me out here ... what is it that gives them such rave popularity?
I look at them and all models pretty much look the same. Standard looking steel tubed frames with plain paint jobs.
I find them visually unattractive, technologically overly simple, and seemingly appeal to pretty much the same sector of the cycling community.
Or maybe that's it, it just isn't my community?
Why bother looking at them if they have no appeal for you?
Boom. Quality STW response straight off the bat! 🤣
Yeah, I just don't get the issue - I mean, the things you are saying are true, they are simple steel bikes, they are not meant to be anything else. Lots of brands out there doing similar stuff. Some people like that kind of thing, and as you point out, you're not one of them.
They are for you what Xanax-addled Soundcloud mumble rap is for me, something that's clearly very popular with some other folks but isn't for me.
I guess the appeal is that they are mechanically simple, easy to work on, no weird headsets or BB's, designed to compatible with as much random old bits as possible so can probably be built with whatever's in your parts bin.
Their plain design means they're not obviously expensive to the casual observer so less likely to get pinched when locked up next to a load of more 'modern' looking bikes, handy for urban runarounds.
Their simple steel frame designs also allow them to experiment a bit more than carbon does and they get a lot of residual kudos for being the first people to do a proper production fat bike, they were also very early to market with longtail cargo bikes and 29ers.
If 32" bikes become a 'thing' I'd fully expect Surly to be in the vanguard, seeing as their Krampus is probably most of the way to being a 32"er already.
Help me out here ... what is it that gives them such rave popularity?
Dunno. I've never ridden one so I can't really offer an opinion.
They used to be a bit of a niche brand back in the day. Designed for bike packing back before that particular market segment had been invented (of course twenty or thirty years earlier my mum was cycling around Scotland on a very similar bike but she did not have a marketing department, just sone old pannier bags).
They had that funky frame that let you swap front and rear wheels in case your hub died in the middle of Alaska.
These days there are better bikes IMO.
Or maybe that's it, it just isn't my community?
Probably this.
I'd say their USP is no nonsense utility. If you were into cars would you get hot and sweaty looking at a cherished old Landy 110 or does a carbon swoopy styled hyper car make your gusset moist? If the former, I'd expect you to 'get' a Surly. If the latter you would I suspect have your head turned by a carbon aero Pinarello.
Hatter sums it up nicely. Their bikes are not about the homogenous and all the latest standards. They are for the tinkers and the trigger's broom riders. If you buy whole bikes and get them serviced by the little man down the road and buy a whole new bike every year or two when it takes your fancy, you probably are not their target market.
What I would say is Surly has just a whiff of artisan gone mass market about it. If you don't have a beard and a checked shirt (looks in mirror...tick!) it's probably not for you.
"artisan gone mass market" is how I view them these days. If you like bike packing in sandals, there are many more micro-brewed options out there.
I have a surly, it’s a totally normal, but good, bike.
I don’t have either a beard or a checked shirt, but I still enjoy riding it.
I’ve tried it with slick tyres, chubby tyres, normal mtb tyres, singlespeed, 2x10, fully loaded bikepacking, the whole lot.
and it manages just fine.
i like bikes, of all types, even though some of them aren’t my thing.
I had a Surly Ogre for years, I commuted on it for years covering 30-40,000 miles. I ran it singlespeed but had a spare wheel with gears and could quickly convert it to gears when needed. It could run it with muguards or run 2.8" tyres. It had loads of mounts for racks and bikepacking etc. It was a useful all round bike,
When the chainstay cracked I bought a Bridge club frame to replace it.
Surly make frames thet ride nicely if you like them buy one but if you don't get it don't get one. To me they are more useful than some of the bikes for throwing down mountains it depends on what you ride.
Dunno. I've never ridden one so I can't really offer an opinion.
Thats not how STW works!
I had one waaaay back for a short time. I'll be honest, all I can compare it to ride-wise was my old On-One 456 Summer Season. Fun but felt like it was constructed from scaffolding.
They are simple and not stunningly beautiful ( a bit like me).
They are useful adaptable transport that you can lock up outside a shop.
When they die they are easy to recycle. It depends if you have a blinkered view of life.
I am off to ride my other bike, which is nothing like a Surly.
I can see why some people like them, but I wonder if part of the appeal is the expense? In this country they are significantly more expensive than their US price would indicate, and much too expensive as complete bikes for their spec. It gives them an exclusive sort of vibe that their scaffold build doesn't really deserve.
I have two, bought second hand, great bikes, probably not cutting edge, but they suit me and my style of riding. They are simple and plain, but that is their charm.
If you want something more modern just buy from QBP's other brand Salsa.
I'm very much their target audience...
No beard or sandals though 😁
I've owned my Krampus since the first batch came to the UK (2013?). Bought as a rolling chassis from Charlie the Bikemonger.
It's been geared, single-speed, (even hub geared for a while), rigid, suspension forked, MTB barred, drop barred, full on bike packing, and stripped back for racing at SSUK.
Never missed a beat, still gets ridden regularly, and the paint is still in better condition than bikes half it's age.
It is the very definition of a forever bike 😎
I think it might have been the cross check I used to like. I loved the idea that one bike could be so versatile. Road or mtb spaced hubs. Big or skinny tyres. Singlespeed or gears. It was just non-nonsense and functional.
I quite like a steel bike too. I like the skinny tubes.
long term ( various models ) surly owner here.
unattractive, simple and basic appeals to some people.
bikes are nothing more than a tool. be it for fun, or transport, or for some people a ego massager.
surly bikes are generally good at all the above................ ;o)
unattractive, simple and basic appeals to some people.
Like my wife 😜
Agree on the comments about Surlys being good, utilitarian bikes - that's all lot of people want. In a world of constantly changing standards it's nice to have a company that sticks with simple, non flashy bikes that can use whatever old parts are lying around.
I recently bought a Bridge Club as a alternative/replacement for my old Genesis Longitude, great that I can switch all the parts between them without having to change hubs, headsets, etc.
I like steel bikes. And they pretty much invented 29+. So I like them for that if nothing else. I’ve got a set of their bars on my commuter and by George they’re heavy though.
I have ridden plenty of different Surlys over the years. Some belonged to complete strangers some riding acquaintances. There's nothing appealing about them at all to me so I'd never want to own one. I just like to try out every bike I see. Every Surly I've ridden has ultimately just been a basic hardtail frame of fairly medeocre/basic manufacturing quality assembled from cheaper steel tubing. Pretty underwhelming really but what commonly seems to be the appeal to their owners is the niche they fit into. and if your particular niche is to have a frame from ye olde tymes designed for slightly more modern day use you're probably going to find something in their line up you'd like. Some owners will tell you all sorts of nonsense about the magically comfortable qualities of steel tubing when it's mainly just cheap plain gauge chromoly damped by low pressure balloon tyres. Some may even tell you of the heritage and ethos of the company they've bought into but in reality a Surly is mainly just a cheap frame with unexciting geometry and room for larger tyres than average. Often with more rivnuts than most people could ever want.
They are fairly popular but I don’t think they are rave popular… and I’m not sure that they are as popular as they used to be.
They are popular because they are have always been a bit unique in terms of design and purpose. They are well designed, reliable and work well.
They aren’t as popular as they used to be because they are now more expensive (in the U.K. at least) and there are now similar alternative bikes available like Brother, Spa, etc.
They aren’t just very cheap plain gauge tubing. They aren’t exotic special stuff but the tubing used has been thought through. It is butted where butting confers an advantage. The ECR forks for example, are lighter than many other heavy duty steel forks.
I have a couple of Surly bikes and they ride well and are just great for what I use them for. If I was replacing my ECR I may well try a Brother Big Bro or a Swift or something… but the ECR is a great bikepacking/rough road tourer that is hard to beat.
Surly has also been good at marketing and producing bikes that are a bit different and appealing to many of us.
Using just ONE butted tube in each frame to allow your company to list your frames as using butted tubing in your sales and marketing information isn't the same thing as...
It is butted where butting confers an advantage.
it's the same trick BMX manufacturers used to pull selling "Cro-mo" frames when only the seat tube was cromo and all the rest were Hi tensile steel. Or when Raleigh sold tons of reynolds steel frames with only one Reynolds tube just to get a Reynolds tubing frame sticker on there.
That ECR fork is still a gurt lump. I dread to think how heavy the other steel forks it's lighter than must be.
but yeah. if you're happy. That's all that matters
Using just ONE butted tube in each frame to allow your company to list your frames as using butted tubing in your sales and marketing information isn't the same thing as...
Hmmmm. Well the three main tubes in my ECR are supposed to be butted. I’m not sure whether I want the rear triangle to be butted or not. I want it to be stiff. Butting it won’t help with that and nor will making it out of anything fancier than big standard chromoly
Same with them there heavy forks. They are a lump because they put up with me and a load of gear and water on the bike without flutter and wobble.
I know that they are lighter than similar forks by Genesis and Kona as I have had them both in my hands at the same time.
Nobody thinks that these bikes are thoroughbreds. But the appeal is that they are tough, well mannered to ride and do what they are supposed to do pretty well.
I have had steel MTB frames by at least Muddy Fox, Saracen, Diamond Back, Fisher, Kona, Woodrup, Thorn, Trek, On One, Genesis, Salsa and Surly. Some made of fancy stuff and most not. The Surly ones were probably the best for what I want them for.
i want to try a Stooge and a Swift and when I do I will report back.
I’m not sure why I’m explaining this really.
Standard looking steel tubed frames with plain paint jobs.
I find them visually unattractive, technologically overly simple, and seemingly appeal to pretty much the same sector of the cycling community.
Or maybe that's it, it just isn't my community?
Probably not your community, no. IME people who ride simple steel bikes tend not to be the judgemental type ; )
I’m not sure why I’m explaining this really
Yes explaining stuff to numpties is a fruitless task 😉
Gaah - did someone on a Surly hurt you once?
If you look at what their riders are using them for - check out the various Facebook owners group etc - you’ll see that they are pretty much perfect for what they are designed for. That doesn’t mean they’re for everyone but they aren’t pretending they are.
Probably not your community, no. IME people who ride simple steel bikes tend not to be the judgemental type ; )
I am living proof that this statement is WRONG 🙂
I've got a Surly Crosscheck in poo brown colour. Despite the frame being covered in dents (various crashes and dropping the bike onto railings while loading shopping into the panniers) the poo brown powdercoat isn't even showing so much as a chip. Or it might be. I haven't cleaned the frame in quite a few years.
I can pull bikes out of skips if I need parts for it which is something I like.
Over the years I've run it in it CX guise but I've also run it as a front motor ebike (taken from a department stor ebike someone crashed) and run various IGHs without needing a tensioner. These days it's back to it's vanilla flavour now that I don't have to haul the kids around in a trailer anymore.
If I had one complaint it's the massive tow overlap on the 52cm frame but that's about it. I'm thinking about pulling a kid's bike out of a skip and stealing the cranks to see if that helps.
Perhaps if I was more into road/gravel I would want 'more' but as it is it does everything I could want.
unattractive, simple and basic appeals to some people.
That's enough about you Ton, what do you think of Surlys?
I look at them and all models pretty much look the same. Standard looking steel tubed frames with plain paint jobs.
I find them visually unattractive, technologically overly simple, and seemingly appeal to pretty much the same sector of the cycling community.
In the same way a Specialized Stumpjumper, Trek Fuel EX, Orange Five, and Cotic Jeht all exist, and certain people will get tremendously excited over ho the leverage curves are different, or the anti rise has risen since the last model or the anti squat has been tweaked.
So too Surly (and their stable mates at Salsa) exist for the kind of people who get just as excited over the placement of bottle or rack mounts.
I saw an advert for a carbon frame the other day and it focused on how the manufacturer had saved 11g by making the dropouts hollow rather than a solid block of carbon and resin. Which is great, and was probably an interesting technical challenge for someone in the manufacturing department. On the other hand I'm pretty sure it was Surly that once devoted an entire blog post to the etiquette surrounding what to do if you stumbled upon someone else's trail beer cache.
Using just ONE butted tube in each frame to allow your company to list your frames as using butted tubing in your sales and marketing information isn't the same thing as...
Even if we supposed that was correct.
Does it matter? What makes for a quality ride? Is it the ride quality ? Do you get back to the pub and say "that was a great ride, the DZB downtube really did it for me". Or was it the view from the top, your mates, the epic portions of cake at the tea rooms, the microbrewery you stubbled across in that village, the weather, sunsets, sunrises, some truly awful weather that made just getting back without calling out mountain rescue a challenge.
I appreciate a well designed fame that rides well, but ultimately it's the factor you only get round to thinking about when all other conversation has been exhausted.
I tend to think of them as an American version of On-One, a brand owned by a big company (QBP) that sells relatively niche-market frames made out of gaspipe and surrounded by a lot of marketing bullshine implying how punk/low tech/cool/edgy they are. Which is kinda fine, if they're also cheap.
By the time they've made it to the UK, they're quite spendy, so if you're after cheap first and foremost you go for On-One, otherwise you're buying at least partially into the PR. They probably handle OK (good geometry is free!), but what the ride is like is another matter.
Nearest I've got to buying one was a Steamroller 20 odd years ago. As a build from Brixton Cycles, it came out a LOT more expensive than a Condor, which was a beautiful frame that I rode for about 15 years before it cracked. The Genesis that replaced it is nowhere near as nice to ride.
(I did rent an Ice Cream Truck in St Moritz in 2019, when I was working there, and rode around on the frozen lakes for a few hours)
Can one of the nay-sayers suggest an alternative to a Surly Bridge Club frameset?
These are available for about £700 online for the frame and fork. I read some threads from a couple of years ago, and each of the suggestions in those are now much more expensive than the Surly, often > £1000 just for the frame!
Use case for me is commuting, light offroad / gravel bridleways and lightweight bike packing. I currently have a On-one inbred 29er with rigid fork that is on it's last legs (just waiting the rust to totally take over). I've had Surly's in the past and liked their no-nonsense approach. I know all the parts on the Inbred will transfer to Surly.
So, what's better than the Bridge Club for fewer £££s?
Using just ONE butted tube in each frame to allow your company to list your frames as using butted tubing in your sales and marketing information isn't the same thing as...
Even if we supposed that was correct.
Does it matter?
I suppose that depends on whether it's just a fact of the build or a marketing tool to mislead the quality of the frame being sold.
Both Sonders look good, but lose marks for internal brake hose and cable routing.
The Broken Road looks particularly good, but requires a fork and costs the same as the Surly already.
Not that there's anything wrong with the Bridge Club as it sounds like what you want is absolutely in their sweet spot ... it can just be done cheaper or more interestingly I would say.
The Sonders are also both boost thru axle, so not ideal if you currently have qr hubs on your inbred! Otherwise the Spa cycles Rove would be a good option for you?
This was the problem I ran into when looking for a new frame set, Surly was really the only option unless I wanted to buy new hubs/wheels.
Just buy the Bridge Club, you know you want to...
Then whatever extra money you spend will be saved on shaving supplies, once you start growing your beard.
I have a soft spot for surly. Without them we would have no fat bikes, 29+ and in a world of folks using gears and batteries it's great to be able to get framesets that can singlespeed easily. (other options like stooge:more hooligan or Singular:more XC also readily available)
These days surly are expensive in the UK and not that "out there" anymore, but some of the old guys (like Tyler and Sov) were ace people and sent a full bike over from the USA for Keef and I for the SSUK champs in 2014 because we got them realllly drunk the year before.
If you don't get it that's fine, mountain biking is a broad old church of many denominations, but I for one am thankful that idiots like them went out and made the pugsley with its freaky offset fork, the bloody awful endomorph tyres and just did their own stuff without following the trends, which opened doors for other bike designers to have fun with daft wheel and rubber sizes.
I still design and get designed most of my custom bikes around 29+
Thanks everyone. I already have the beard, so I guess the Bridge Club is the natural fit! And I can still use my XT dynamo hub wheelset.
The Brother is the only other frame in the running, I think, but I'd have to get new wheels.
Edit: The Spa Cycles Rove looks interesting, but seems to be 1kg heavier than the Surly. If on-line weights are to be believed.
Edit edit: actually only seems to be about 0.5kg heavier. That's not too bad.
a Condor, which was a beautiful frame that I rode for about 15 years before it cracked. The Genesis that replaced it is nowhere near as nice to ride.
Based on the timing that's probably the diference between pre-CEN and CEN-pass frame tubes. Not saying that's why one failed but it may be related.
Plus some stiffness differences, the older Genesis bikes tended to be a bit stiffer than some at the time (though most have the same top + down tube sizes these days).
Does it matter?
I'd say so. A well-specced steel frame rides nicer than anything else imho - I kept my nicest steel bikes and either sold or cracked the Ti frames I've had. But most steel bikes now are overbuild past that stage now thanks to ISO (prev CEN) tests that imho don't consider the materials used particularly well.
OP, get the Bridge Club. It's as good as you'll find for that kind of bike and QBP are big enough to get the tube specs they need drawn to suit. And most of them come from Maxway anyway.
I suppose that depends on whether it's just a fact of the build or a marketing tool to mislead the quality of the frame being sold.
I'd say so. A well-specced steel frame rides nicer than anything else imho - I kept my nicest steel bikes and either sold or cracked the Ti frames I've had. But most steel bikes now are overbuild past that stage now thanks to ISO (prev CEN) tests that imho don't consider the materials used particularly well.
My point was rather, that if your aim is to go for a ride, rather than ride a bike, does it matter. In a lot of cases what bike you're on is pretty inconsequential to howe much you enjoy the ride. Like you said, post CEN there's not much difference anyway.
If you are want/ are happy with QR the get the Bridge Club. I recon it is a good frame. It is a shame that Genesis isn’t making the Longitude any more as it was great too.
Plus some stiffness differences, the older Genesis bikes tended to be a bit stiffer than some at the time (though most have the same top + down tube sizes these days).
I have a Genesis Tour de Fer bought for commuting years ago on the CTW scheme. It is quite heavy but pretty stiff. It’s a bit harsh ridden unloaded but with a load it is very stable and shimmy free… just as I suspect it was designed to be.
As for tubing, the epithet “gas pipe” isn’t really very helpful and is easy to sling about. And as said above, Surly can spec their tubing fairly easily and generally seem to do so in a considered way to make the frames ride the way they want them to. The frame tubing may well not be fancy stuff but in my experience it is good enough to make a good bike.
interestingly, everyone thinks of the Pugsley as heavy duty when in fact the frame tubing is quite slender and the bike is fairly flexible. It makes it ride nicely when the tyres are pumped up hard, but is quite wobbly with a very heavy load on the back.
My point was rather, that if your aim is to go for a ride, rather than ride a bike, does it matter.
I guess not if you're only going somewhere to be there and the bike just isn't part of it. There are some folk who'll ride any old thing and enjoy the ride for the place, people etc, I suspect those people are rare though. Bikes are such a part of the experience - cmofort, response/feedback, efficiency etc. There are some who obsess over the bike too much, I expect most of us are somewhere in between. Some of us will simply enjoy pone bike over anbother without knowing (or caring) why. Personally the ride experience is a whole thing - route, weather, people, fitness, bike/kit etc and I'd find it hard to seperate out the bike's influence in that. Hence I think it does matter, but I agree it's not everything.
RE Surly's tubing - there's 2 tube producers in Taiwan, one who make some tubes for Reynolds-badged frames and another who make some Columbus tubes. The ride feel ime is far less to do with the badge on the frame and far more to do with tube dimensions. Badges are material spec and some marketing value, that's all. Good ol' 4130 is brilliant stuff.
Surly have their own specs for their tubes also, just not third party branded
https://surlybikes.com/pages/some-things-about-our-steel
There are some folk who'll ride any old thing and enjoy the ride for the place, people etc, I suspect those people are rare though.
And so are Surly's. Whether by accident or design that seems to be their market. E.g. Surly make the Grappler (didn't the ECR previously fill the drop bar 29er/29+ niche?) , if you want it lighter, better ride quality, or just 'nicer' then Salsa will sell you a Cutthroat or Fargo in carbon, titanium, or just posher looking steel.
a Condor, which was a beautiful frame that I rode for about 15 years before it cracked. The Genesis that replaced it is nowhere near as nice to ride.
Based on the timing that's probably the diference between pre-CEN and CEN-pass frame tubes. Not saying that's why one failed but it may be related.
I still remember riding a late 90s Tange Prestige over my local hill and a feeling as if the BB area was twisting as the trail undulated. I could load that frame up and fire it into the next section of track. It was lovely.
At around the same time I rode a friend's carbon Scott Endorphin and could twist the stays out of position when I was standing on the pedals. That wasn't a nice ride! 😀
I've never ridden such a nice feeling steel frame as that Tange Marin above, but then that frame was cracked within a year.
There are some folk who'll ride any old thing and enjoy the ride for the place, people etc, I suspect those people are rare though.
And so are Surly's. Whether by accident or design that seems to be their market. E.g. Surly make the Grappler (didn't the ECR previously fill the drop bar 29er/29+ niche?) , if you want it lighter, better ride quality, or just 'nicer' then Salsa will sell you a Cutthroat or Fargo in carbon, titanium, or just posher looking steel.
Both are own by QBP in the US.
I have had a couple of Surly's a Karate Monkey and a Krampus.
They were both slightly niche and good fun. The chainline on the Krampus was a bit of a problem iirc as the chain would rub on the side of a Maxxis Chronicle in the lowest gear when you were giving it the beans. The sparkly bassboat green paint made up for that though.
I'm still annoyed they got nicked.
Both are own by QBP in the US.
That's what I meant, if Surly made a 'better' bike, it world be sold as a Salsa.
They also owned all-city, which is a shame as I always thought it was a rubbish name for a bike company. If it had Salsa on the downtube I'd probably have bought a nature boy or super professional!
if Surly made a 'better' bike, it world be sold as a Salsa.
Many people would stroke their beards at the thought of a better bike than a Surly.
The chainline on the Krampus was a bit of a problem iirc as the chain would rub on the side of a Maxxis Chronicle in the lowest gear when you were giving it the beans.
That’s why it went boost… but most people seem to be on 2.6 tires now so it probably doesn’t matter as much.
Surly made a 'better' bike, it world be sold as a Salsa
I don’t really like car analogies, but I guess Salsa is to Surly what Rangerover was to Landrover (Defender).
just made a list of the Surly bikes i have owned,
58cm grey LHT
60cm purple disc trucker
64cm black disc trucker
60cm racing green disc trucker
xl karate monkey in black
l karate monkey in light blue
xl krampus ops in black
xl ogre in silver
xl ECR in custard
xl ECR in turd colour
plus 2 x posh surly's. xl steel fargo and xl ti fargo.
wowsers................ ;o)
Good ol' 4130 is brilliant stuff.
Yep, used in that other icon of simple practicality the AK47 assault rifle.
But seriously my 1x1 is the first bike I go to if I just want to jump on and ride off, although at my age the style is more mooching than blasting along the trail. Second is a Cotic Simple, which is superfically similar but a totally different ride, less relaxed, much more nimble and sharper handing, although the straight fork probably accounts for some of that.
(I also wear check shirts, although I DO actually work with trees and drive an elderly LR Defender, so I seem to fit the sterotype described above)
https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/bik/d/minneapolis-who-needs-marketing-manager/7873068830.html
How many other brands would do a soft launch for their updated ebike like this? 😂
Surly have their own specs for their tubes also, just not third party branded
Yes, sorry if not clear in my post - I was getting at how there's little real difference in the steel itself at that 'our own crmo' level, the (tube) dimensions make more ride difference. QBP have the volume to spec tubes the way they want. eg the bulge-butted DT on the Fargo.