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with all the increased costs it would be interesting to understand how the economics of UK design, UK built, blingy hardtails is in comparison
There was someone posting the other day on instagram that they had started selling UK made frames was very low for full 853 £379 quid , I thought it might be the bike shop cost that they put up by mistake , will try to find link I'm sure custom was an option for 50 quid more.
Maybe now's the time to look at making them in the uk?
Alternatively he will still get enough sales at the new price point.
I wasn't saying he won't, just that I'm sure he'll be nervous and would have preferred not to push his product firmly into the luxury bracket.
There is no getting away from the fact that 700 quid is a lot to pay for a non custom steel hardtail, no matter how good it is. Time will tell whether it is too much.
I can't help thinking that people still denying the effects of a monumental shift in British economy are utter morons.
.....and then there's the people moaning about people maoning about the fact a product's price has been increased by 30% in a short space of time.
The moron mirror is waiting right here for you fella.
.....and then there's the people moaning about people maoning about the fact a product's price has been increased by 30% in a short space of time.The moron mirror is waiting right here for you fella.
£600 to £700 is less than 20%. Just saying..........
Let me get this right though.
Am I correct in saying Stanton sell trade to bike shops? Who will sell the frame for £700, the same £700 that that Stanton sell the frame for direct to customers.
So they have apparently been forced to increase the price to the customer from £600 to £700, but can still sell their frames at trade to bike shops. How does that Work? Surely if they can afford to sell at trade which what must be around the £450 mark then surely they can sell to the public for £600.
If folk just buy from a bike shop rather than go direct (can't see any really benefit to going direct anyway) then Stanton will only be ever selling their frames at trade.
There must be a massive margin to be able to sell at trade and also direct at full retail.
Imagine it Hope (or any otger manufaccturer for that matter) sold direct and cut out the bike shops they'd rake it in.
If a pro 4 rear hub costs them £65 to make and they sell to shops for £110
Then shops sell for £145 you can see they is a lot of profit selling the direct method.
Go figure
which what must be around the £450 mark
This is your assumption. The RRP will have increased because the trade price will have increased.
If folk just buy from a bike shop rather than go direct (can't see any really benefit to going direct anyway) then Stanton will only be ever selling their frames at trade. Go figure
This is the kind of decision you have to make as a company. Yes, Stanton will make more per bike by selling direct, but by agreeing to allow other shops to sell their product as well they are hoping to be able to sell in greater numbers, and therefore increase their profit that way. Capish?
STED 7 MINUTES AGO # EDIT
shermer75 - Member
which what must be around the £450 mark
This is your assumption. The RRP will have increased because the trade price will have increased.
Yes but if shops are selling for £700 they are clearly paying less than that so why can't Stanton sell direct for less than £700? Truth is they could quite clearly as they are willing to sell to shops for less.
Yes but if shops are selling for £700 they are clearly paying less than that so why can't Stanton sell direct for less than £700? Truth is they could quite clearly as they are willing to sell to shops for less.
Yes, but they would lose all shop support. Apple could sell you an iPhone cheaper, direct, but they don't. The model is either direct (Canyon/Planet X) or via shops, for all business models.
Yes but if shops are selling for £700 they are clearly paying less than that so why can't Stanton sell direct for less than £700? Truth is they could quite clearly as they are willing to sell to shops for less.
Ah, fair point. When I asked the same question the reply I got was that all the shops that Stanton (in this case) are hoping to carry their stock will get the hump if they know that Stanton are selling them online at a reduced price, and therefore undercutting them.
as they are willing to sell to shops for less.
Yes, but they would lose all shop support. Apple could sell you an iPhone cheaper, direct, but they don't. The model is either direct (Canyon/Planet X) or via shops, for all business models.
Can't see how shop support really benefits much. They still have to deal with warranty claims at the end of the day.
Yes you are right, business models are either direct or via shops but Stanton are trying to get the best of both. I could understand if the retail had to go up to £700 and they only sold via shops.
The idea of buying direct should make them cheaper than the competition that don't sell direct.
Think of a Santa Cruz Chameleon.
That is sold to an importer, who then sells to a shop who then sells to a customer and it still comes out at £599 rrp.
A Chameleon is a much cheaper frame to build than these (less expensive materials, much greater volume).
Stanton's prices will be set accepting lower than usual profit via dealers and higher than usual direct. If the balance of turnover skews too much to the dealers the business could become unprofitable. You can't undercut your dealers!
Can't see how shop support really benefits much.
But they, I'm guessing, can see the benefit, hence wanting to continue with that model? The market trend is for this dual model, Patagonia, Burton Snowboards etc, all have active retailers, but you can also order direct off their websites.
This is the norm in distribution.... Never undercut your sellers.
The question is will the price come back down when the value of the pound increases ?
Yeah, but probably best to put that idea on the back burner. Unless something truly miraculous happens then the pound isn't going to positively move much against the $ or € for sometime.
iefgrooveguru - Member
A Chameleon is a much cheaper frame to build than these (less expensive materials, much greater volume).Stanton's prices will be set accepting lower than usual profit via dealers and higher than usual direct. If the balance of turnover skews too much to the dealers the business could become unprofitable. You can't undercut your dealers!
That's really well put. Just a shame that going direct still means a high price for the consumer which ultimately for Stanton gets them the Niger than average profit.
I honestly can't see why they must don't sell direct only. It's not the big shops that sell then anyway.
Would anyone be buy a Stanton who didn't already know about them and only saw it in their local bike shop? I'd be surprised.
For a steel hardtail frame, £700 is certainly a lot of money. I've always thought they looked like really good bikes though. Certainly better value than a badly conceived custom built frame that people have mentioned above, afterall, these Stantons are proven.
Not sure why the 631 model is the same £700 though.
If it is truly a full 853 frame, then it'd probably be a wise move to change some of the tubes to standard butted 4130 (and bring the cost down). You'd still keep the 853 sticker, which is all anyone cares about anyway.
Certainly makes the Cotic BFe look like a bargain.
This price increase on the frames has been a long time coming, and it is totally down to the brexit thing, leaving Europe is the worst thing that could have happened for many small businesses, and many are feeling the pinch. Dan has desperately tried to avoid this happening, he recently visited Taiwan and Japan to try and negotiate prices but to no avail, businesses can't survive if they're not making money, and when you take into account all the detail in the frames, they're still competitive, the Cnc yolk, 853 or 631 steel, adjustable swop outs, super discreet stealth routing..... many firms have already put their prices up, and many many others will follow. You're all talking like the frames have gone up to a grand or something, they're about the same price as a production privee, and way cheaper than the likes of niner's ros9, and btr. You're getting one of if not the best hardtaik on the market for your money, manufacturered by a guy that genuinely cares about his product. Give the guy a break, this is not the outcome he wanted.
Price increases have become very real in the past month or so
I order workshop service parts from Madison on a daily basis, often reordering the same items.
the increases have been shocking on Shimano
I have customers regularly declining comprehensive service jobs (i.e. rear wheel, transmission parts) on sub £1000 bikes and dumping the bikes for new models as the cost of service parts is becoming very high
Ultegra 6800 52t chain ring - now retails at £119.99
M7000 SLX disc brake (no rotor or adapter) - now retails at £94.99
Yen is very strong now:
To be fair, USD drop had been going on for 8 months or so. And at some point Stanton are going to have to reorder at the new exchange rate. Seems a logical point of the year as it's new financial year.
Think he did say that tried working all with suppliers on cost down, however across whole supply chain costs gone up.
I've been looking at comparable frames for a while and some interesting comparisons.
Jones: $975 to $1500 inc truss fork. But no swap outs or yokes, or Reynolds tubing.
Production Privee €700 no yokes, swap outs or Reynolds tubing. But lovely bikes.
Fat Chance: no Reynolds tubing and implied hand made $1800 to $2199
Orange P7. No swap outs, yokes and basic chromoly £525
Cotic £599, one Reynolds tube, no swap outs and no yokes.
BTR £1000 as above on details
NS €699 for something comparable.
Shand £1000.
Did see photos of stanton factory and they are all hand welded up by highly skilled welders. Looked at the frames at London bike show and the welding was immaculate compared to everything else at the show.
So in that context I don't think it's excessive. Unfortunately seems our hobby is going to get more expensive for us in the short time. Or time to emigrate to the USA. Trump however!! Lol!
Think Stanton have pushed hard on improving the engineering and ride of the bikes. Added cost to the frames and exchange rate has made that now unsustainable.
Most direct sales models need to put product in front of customer to see. I doubt Stanton make much at all on the shop sales. More of a brand building exercise.
Aye god forbid they're keeping a viable business running and turning a profit 🙄
By coincidence I just found a receipt for my Bontrager Race OR. I paid £718 for that frame and a set of project 2's in 1996...
The bike is still going strong and I absolutely love it but I suspect the Stanton will be a better ride!
We really need Jamba on this thread so he can explain how awesome the price increase really is and how it is a price worth paying for our freedom.
Aye god forbid they're keeping a viable business running and turning a profit
Don't worry they won't be around long anyway with all the "I was going to buy one but not anymore!" Going on in this thread...
People said the same about stuff we sell at work (bike related) prices were increased 6 months ago and sales seem to be roughly the same
Well fwiw price increase or not they are still on my short list for when I change because they tick the boxes that matter to me so it's a price worth paying to get that.
Brexit aside I think we've all just got used to paying 'low' for things. I've been off the bike for nearly 18months so haven't been paying much attention to prices but have just finished putting together a new SS and was surprised at the prices for some parts compared to why I'd paid in past so I sucked it up in some cases and down specced in others. Can't say I can honestly notice the difference in that regard anyway.
It only seems expensive until everything else goes up too
[b]This. [/b]And this again. You can't hold prices if you're buying in dollars, unless you had an insane margin before.
The rate that matters is the USD, and your looking at 30year lows
[b]This. [/b]If you don't understand this, and why it is happened, don't mouth off about "blaming Brexit". Wake up.
This is the norm in distribution.... Never undercut your sellers.
[b]This. [/b]If you sell through shops[i] (long live the LBS) [/i]you have to sell current models at same price if peeps want to buy direct.
Cotic £599, one Reynolds tube
Which Cotic is that?
The BFe has one 853 tube, and that starts at £349 for the QR version.
Only £599 frames are thru axle versions of Soul and the SolarisMAX, and they have full 853 front triangles.
I hope he can sell them at that price, i also hope it puts UK production on the agenda,
Looking at this thread I feel it needs some fact rather than just speculation, so I have decided to comment directly.
Since Brexit it has cost on average £18,000 more to buy US$100,000. If all of the products cost more money simply due to a change in exchange rate it means that not only does the product cost more but so does your 5% import charge and your VAT payment on import, also your shipping costs increase as you're buying your shipping contract in US dollar (or your forwarder is). All of this has a detrimental effect solely on profit margins and obviously this margin is the life blood to a sustainable business.
There is talk on here about the fact that we sell to shops, over the last 8 to 9 months we have made £35 a frame on every frame that was sold to a shop, you can obviously tell this is not sustainable so now the business model has to go more direct. And the margins to shops have been cut dramatically. We still need to sell to shops as we would like to support (in now what little way we can) the traditional LBS businesses that we all grew up with.
I understand that this decision may cause some people not to buy my frames, but my only alternative is to reduce the quality of what I'm producing. If I do see a significant drop in sales then I will realise that I have to let go of my incessant need to produce the very best products that I can. I will make the changes, like reducing the quality of the steel we use. or just use one Reynolds tube. I will lengthen the chain stays to get tyre clearances rather than using CNC'd yokes so i can keep tight chain stays and awesome ride characteristics, I'll change my paint factory to a cheeper place and use simple wrap decals rather than precisely measured decals for each frame model and size, I'll opt for cheeper cable routing styles etc etc because then, at that point i'll realise that price point is king, not true quality. Hell... I could even start smashing out alloy HT frames at £500 a pop...
I also know that making these changes will drive me more profit out the product and you guys will have a price point you're happy with.
I have held off this decision for the last 8-9 months and I've been swallowing the problem, trying to find ways to cost down my frames without compromising quality and its simply not posable.
Every single one of my frames is Quality tested to the highest posable standards and made in the best factory in the cycle industry, I didn't choose this factory because it was cheap and in the Far East, I chose this factory because it has the best hand welders working there in the whole of the cycle industry and because they are voted as one of the very best engineering and frame fabricators in the world with over 30 yrs experience, producing all the most iconic frames we've been lusting over since kids.
I want you to know that I'm not sat here in my 6 bed house with a butler helping me rub my hands together while I look to cream cash, I live a humble life with my wife and nearly 3 kids, quite simply doing this out of a pure passion to produce what I deem as rad quality products.
We are an importing industry and our currencies strength has been a strong bolster to being able to supply top end stuff at reasonably affordable prices, this 'bolster' has now gone, on the day we voted 'Leave' the value of our currency plummeted into a pit of despair.
I personally have two hands to play if I want to keep my business alive. The first hand is actually passing this currency problem onto the customer...
The second hand is reduce the quality. I'm more inclined to try option one first.
Only £599 frames are thru axle versions of Soul and the SolarisMAX, and they have full 853 front triangles.
Just checked again and only Reynolds tube is a DZB down tube. Rest are Cotic own. Just read that on their frame spec sheet for the soul.
Hope it works out just fine for you.
A reduction in quality/features and or design would be such a shame. Some of those features are why your frame is at the top of my wish list. I'd love to say I was ready to buy now but as I'm only just getting back into it after a bit of a break, I need to ride consistently again before I splash out.
I certainly hope you can maintain the level you want to be at with the brand and product.
Well said Dan.
I'm on my second Stanton, first a slackline now a switchback. The switchback is the the frame that made me give up on full sus for the last 18 months (other than the dh bike of course), and worth every penny. Yes I'd pay the increased price if I was in the market for a new one. These are quality, well thought out/designed frames with great geometry, from a UK brand.
How about supporting one of our pioneering frame designers rather than trying to drag them down?
Dan, thanks for your comments. I run a manufacturing business here and am thankful that we're a net exporter. I'm still ****ing furious about the situation we're now in...
Good luck, I hope your target audience have the wisdom to pay a bit more for a great product (it's not a big cost increase over the lifespan of a steel frame - especially not compared to what a fork will cost in that time!)
I've never looked at Stanton before but the Sherpa looks ace. I'd definitely consider one if I was in the market for another HT frame. Would prefer a 27.2 seat tube but you can't have everything 🙂
Nice to hear from the manufacturer. I'm saving for a 29er HT and the Sherpa is top of my list. It was before the price increase, it still is after.
What I can't understand is that folk taking part in a multi-thousand pound hobby, at least when using kit of the quality Stanton produces, consider £100 to be the tipping point.
Get a second-hand fork. Go SLX instead of XT. Don't use ludicrously-priced carbon rims. Get Nanos rather than Boomslangs. There are so many cost savings to be made when you're building a bike from scratch, with negligible effect on quality, that completely negate the £100 frame price increase.
If it is truly a full 853 frame, then it'd probably be a wise move to change some of the tubes to standard butted 4130 (and bring the cost down). You'd still keep the 853 sticker, which is all anyone cares about anyway.
They use 525 for the rear end.
They're great Simon. I bought a mk 1 for £399 earlier in the year - lovely frame, the balance between climbing and descending ability is bang on.
Only £599 frames are thru axle versions of Soul and the SolarisMAX, and they have full 853 front triangles.
Just checked again and only Reynolds tube is a DZB down tube. Rest are Cotic own. Just read that on their frame spec sheet for the soul.
Reynolds 853 DZB down tube, Ovalform top tube and Cotic Exclusive 34.9mm seat tube combine for a supple yet precise ride feel
All three of those tubes are 853, Cotic Exclusive means that Reynolds make that 853 seat tube just for Cotic. I believe to Cy's design/spec, with tooling he purchased for them, but you'd have to check that with him. All three main triangle tubes are definitely 853.
Go SLX instead of XT.
I think Brexit means that SLX is going to be the new XT anyway. Good job it does a good job.
How about supporting one of our pioneering frame designers
😆
Which part of a steel hardtail frame is "pioneering"?
Yes I see your point, a steel hardtail is just the same as any other steel hardtail in that context.
I was talking specifically about the geometry, apologies.
There's not many companies that offer such a slack ha (combined with a st angle that meant it could also be ridden up hill) steel tubed frame, with a 415mm back end (especially in 650b format).
I believe Dan was one of the first to go down this route (as in that slack with such a short back end), this is how frame geometries evolve and makes our riding experience better. If it wasn't for companies like this we'd still be on short top tube 70 degree head angle long stem machines, hence the pioneer comment 🙂
Nice to hear from the manufacturer. I'm saving for a 29er HT and the Sherpa is top of my list. It was before the price increase, it still is after.What I can't understand is that folk taking part in a multi-thousand pound hobby, at least when using kit of the quality Stanton produces, consider £100 to be the tipping point.
Get a second-hand fork. Go SLX instead of XT. Don't use ludicrously-priced carbon rims. Get Nanos rather than Boomslangs. There are so many cost savings to be made when you're building a bike from scratch, with negligible effect on quality, that completely negate the £100 frame price increase.
You're absolutely right about the frame being the most important bit, but many of us are already making the component compromises you suggest.
I think everyone was being pretty respectful and understanding even before Dan Stanton showed up here, and he's been honest that he'd really have preferred not to put the price up to that level.
They were £500 a year or two ago, yeah? I could have just about managed that. £600 was probably a stretch too far, but never say never. £700 is honestly never gonna happen on my current income. That's just how it is for a lot of us.
On the subject of widespread Brexit-based price hikes - I'm sure they'll happen, but I think it's the bike industry that'll suffer more than the consumer as people will just buy less.
Sherpa mk1 was £500 with no yokes, stealth or the new posh graphics. That was over 2 years ago.
Mk2 600 from the off. With above upgrades included. My view it's value not cost that is important and when I looked at all the alternatives at the London bike show including a 1500 pound Zillion and Shand for a grand up close you could see how much better the stanton was. Also been future proofed as the swap outs will take all current wheel width trends including boost including super fat tyres on the Switchback. So should be sweet for a few years to come.
Fact of the matter is they're awesome bikes with great features that justify a higher price tag...many pay over £3k for a carbon push bike frame...many buy cars at silly prices, TV's, clothes, funiture, Apple kit, sound systems, photography gear what ever the hell else at silly prices.
Yes it might put some off but they'll still sell in good numbers.
It's a great brand that's well respected and lusted after by some.
I'm sure if/when the exchange rate improves it will be reflected in the prices.
Europe is the worst thing that could have happened for many small businesses,
Who rely on importing and selling on ,at vastly inflated prices?