[Closed] Sportive Speeds

eddie11 - Member
it can't be a race as its not mass start.

I wasn't being sarky. It's just that so many of your recent posts seem to be filled with anquish about your riding, I'm glad that you actually had a nice day out.

Ta. I think part of my problem was coming off a cross season late December, then not having any events until May. So I think I get a form of cycling SAD where I doubt my abilities 😐

Although sportives are not races your personal challenge would be to do it in the fastest time possible, possibly the fastest time. Although there's no points or prizes its still good to know that your the quickest there, and alot of serious cyclists do sportives.

Road races actually naff me off, alot of people thinking there fast because they enter races. So many times i've seen people quit road races, come home in the groupetto, the main peleton because , for some, they get it tactically wrong, but for most, because they actually aren't strong enough to ride with the 20% of the field which actually are strong. These same 'racers' would probably not even get in the top 10% of times in sportives.

I prefer sportives, alot less pressure to perform, ALOT less idiots trying to jostle for position only to do nothing but sit there. In fact sportives are like the leading group of a 'race', they all have the same goal to get to the end as quick as possible, they all do there share at the front( when they can)and its alot safer.

Just because i dont finish 5th and get a £10 prize money and 5 points doesn't demean sportives

Cant believe people have missed this

Would you call [s]the bleep test[/s] knackered brakes a [s]race[/s] fair deal?

Brilliant!

Out of interest, to the people who [i]race[/i] sportives: why do you choose to enter them instead of a race? Surely there are more road races/ crit races/ track races/ mtb races that are marketed as [i]races[/i] than there are sportives and they cost less to enter, and quite often have proper trophies/ prize money. Nothing against sportives (although if something is specifically denoted as NOT being a race by the organiser then it isn't a race) they are a good day out. Just trying to understand if people want to race why they don't actually enter a race where you could pay £15.00 and end up with a couple grand if you're quick, as oppose to pay £50.00 to ride with a bunch of people who for the most part aren't racing.

Iain

Iain - ask the "racers" if they'd like to see a lot of riders who are not experienced in group riding come along and ride alongside them 🙂

TBH, I think the most common perception is that the whole "race" scene is dominated by the Clubs. Not in a Club - you'll have no one to race with (I've heard this first hand). Plus, many clubs have a reputation as being unwelcoming. You can almost split the responses on this and similar threads into Clubbies and Non-clubbies and it's fairly easy to tell which is which. Raddogairs post is a notable exception.

Drafted an amazing response and do you know what? I can't be bothered.

Druid are you the guy that races off up the hill or down the descent on the tuesday night ride and then congratulates himself about owning everyone? You are aren't you!

Guess what? Racers are saving it for a race and the rest are riding for the craic and enjoyment.

Whilst your working yourself into a froth about how brilliant you are everyone else is having fun. Let me know how many points you get on your license for your next top 50 finish at the next sportive you do will you?

Oh by the way I am not sure why you keep twittering about Danny Hart. Last time I checked he rides on courses closed to the public and is given a start time based on seeding runs already completed? I think he may have to have a UCI 'racing' license as well.

If I do 50 miles in about 3 hours

druidh - I know but everyone has to start somewhere, it would be nice if everyone had experience riding with a club before racing but sadly most don't.

I'm really wondering as I'm running our uni club atm and have been trying to get more people in to racing as I think it's awesome fun. But it seams much easier to get people on a long ride or an organised ride than a race (as is mirrored elsewhere with sportives being so popular.) I'm of the mind it's because they aren't keen on the competitiveness/ too nervous or don't want to get beaten but this is kind of juxtaposed by opinions on this thread by people wanting to race sportives.

I find road and track races quite friendly, even if I've turned up with no club mates so I think the "not part a club no one to race with" is un-justified in my experience, but that might be a perception that people have.

Iain

Racings fun, but it's no sportive.

I prefer to sportive in events that take me away from where I normally ride, like in Europe.. So the Wiggle things and Southern Sportives are out for me as I ride that area every couple of days.

Did the Exmoor Bash year before last and that was hard.

But I like big events, in places that either the Giro has been up/down or the TdF or some of the more eclectic events like the old Eroica or Lombardia.. or P-R, ToF That kinda thing.

smuttiesmith - Member
Druid are you the guy that races off up the hill or down the descent on the tuesday night ride and then congratulates himself about owning everyone? You are aren't you!

Whilst your working yourself into a froth about how brilliant you are everyone else is having fun. Let me know how many points you get on your license for your next top 50 finish at the next sportive you do will you?

Oh by the way I am not sure why you keep twittering about Danny Hart. Last time I checked he rides on courses closed to the public and is given a start time based on seeding runs already completed? I think he may have to have a UCI 'racing' license as well.

Drafted an amazing response and do you know what? I can't be bothered.

Iain Gillam - Member
druidh - I know but everyone has to start somewhere, it would be nice if everyone had experience riding with a club before racing but sadly most don't.

I'm really wondering as I'm running our uni club atm and have been trying to get more people in to racing as I think it's awesome fun. But it seams much easier to get people on a long ride or an organised ride than a race (as is mirrored elsewhere with sportives being so popular.) I'm of the mind it's because they aren't keen on the competitiveness/ too nervous or don't want to get beaten but this is kind of juxtaposed by opinions on this thread by people wanting to race sportives.

One of the local clubs does "development rides" for those wanting to learn about chain-gangs and group riding. Is that something you've tried?

I'm really wondering as I'm running our uni club atm and have been trying to get more people in to racing as I think it's awesome fun. But it seams much easier to get people on a long ride or an organised ride than a race (as is mirrored elsewhere with sportives being so popular.) I'm of the mind it's because they aren't keen on the competitiveness/ too nervous or don't want to get beaten but this is kind of juxtaposed by opinions on this thread by people wanting to race sportives.

I find road and track races quite friendly, even if I've turned up with no club mates so I think the "not part a club no one to race with" is un-justified in my experience, but that might be a perception that people have.

Iain

Same here, I'm the chairman of our club. I find the race scene in fact the whole club scene very friendly. The core of the club is it's road racing, but it would be nothing without the tourers, audaxers, sportive riders, mtb'ers even the guys that just show up to ride once and a while.
Folk see the high profile side of clubs i.e the race squads and assume that's all there is to a cycling club.
What they don't see is the 10 mini mountainbikes laid on at races so kids can have a go. They don't see the roadies marshaling kids at go-rides. Or the work that goes into providing endless events to promote clubs and get new people out riding.

I think you just have to accept that the fact that lots of folk don't want to race - I'd much rather go on a long non-competitive ride, preferably one featuring cake and ice-cream
One of the local clubs does "development rides" for those wanting to learn about chain-gangs and group riding. Is that something you've tried?

I know not everyone wants to race and that's fine, if you want a non-competitive ride round a good route with lots of people to chat with and don't mind paying, sportives are the ticket. I've done a few and enjoyed them. But a few appear to be of the opinion that a sportive is a race and are presumably are entering them to [i]race[/i] and I'm wondering why people choose to do that rather than enter a race?

We do stuff like chain gangs, pace lines, done a couple unofficial TT's, trips to the track and most seam to have a ball doing all that stuff. I've got a few along to some crit races and they all loved it hence why I'd like to get a few more to go.

Iain

One of the local clubs does "development rides" for those wanting to learn about chain-gangs and group riding. Is that something you've tried?

We do this.
We have three groups go out, but we all meet at the same time and same place so we can all keep in touch or flit from one group to another. I don't like the idea of fast boys having their own little place.
So we have the race squad ride, development ride (sounds a bit grand) and the cake run (which is actually pretty quick)
If I'm knackered I can join the cake run. Or if a newcomer shows up they have a choice of groups.
We also have midweek fast and slow rides. Friday spin sessions and Tuesday night MTB rides.

Same here, I'm the chairman of our club. I find the race scene in fact the whole club scene very friendly. The core of the club is it's road racing, but it would be nothing without the tourers, audaxers, sportive riders, mtb'ers even the guys that just show up to ride once and a while.
Folk see the high profile side of clubs i.e the race squads and assume that's all there is to a cycling club.
What they don't see is the 10 mini mountainbikes laid on at races so kids can have a go. They don't see the roadies marshaling kids at go-rides. Or the work that goes into providing endless events to promote clubs and get new people out riding.

Exactly, I think in general clubs have a lot to offer and racing is a right laugh. It's sad if people are being put off it because they have preconceptions about what it is.

Iain

This Sunday I decided to ride Race Timings MK Sportive the 'Codebreaker'. I hadn't officially entered and paid the twenty five quid, but knew an old acquaintance was riding so I thought I'd join him. Actually Nathan was riding the 100 mile version known as the 'Colussus'. With him that day was a NBRC clubmate and fellow LBRCC rider Jase. Actually Jase was just along for the ride like myself.
So after sleeping off the previous days Hell of the North, I awoke to a wet and windy day. Car loaded and wet gear packed I set off to meet my days fellow riders. Once at the start it was obvious that the rain had 'forced' most of the paid up entrants to stay at home. So imagine how pleased I was to see Laura and Russell from the club turn up to ride, making it an unofficial four club members riding.
So to the start, being an interloper I set off in the second group. We gingerly rode out of the estate surrounding the event HQ and once onto open roads we wound up the speed. My opinion of sportive riders went up a bit at that point, but it wasn't long before I was loudly tutting and shaking my head in true chairman style at some of the poor technique I witnessed. I was also concerned that the pace was too high for Nathans 100 mile ride, but no one was ever going to listen.
Then came the first hill, the Three Locks. As I suspected everyone shot past me, then they got slower and slower and started to weave with rear mechs crunching desperately trying to find the right gear too late.
Over the top and into 53 and head down. I'm not in this to do well so lets see who want's to sit on my wheel. I've just got three behind me. I tow them from Brickhill to Woburn, but keep the pace up and they drop off on the climb through the Deer Park.
I'm now totally on my own and wonder if I'm actually on the right route, but I see yellow markers confirming I am at every junction. I'm on my own for roughly fifteen more miles until I notice a rider bearing down. I see his fancy yellow Mavic shoes and recognize him from the start. He doesn't pass and we ride to the half way point together. Our computers at that point record a staggering 23mph average, but soon we are to find out why.
As we turn we head into a fierce headwind and driving rain. We ride together a little longer before his youth takes it's advantage and he eases away. Looking down at my computer it says 13 mph and I'm pushing hard!
I keep yellow Mavics in my sight for another twenty miles before I loose sight of him. These last miles are now purgatory I can't see a soul. I'm wondering how Laura and Russell are doing, I remember Lauras smile at the start and hope she is still wearing it.
Still no one, yet I'm on track as the yellow markers are still there. Then with about six miles to go two Putney Town Rowing Club riders go flying past in good formation. There's no chance of a wheel there, but it was nice to see another human.
Four miles left and I pass a rider I saw going hell for leather at the start. I tut tut at him, but offer my wheel though he can't hold it and seems to go backwards.
Then out of nowhere the finish appears. I'm deeply worried by the lack of bikes at the finish, have they all finished and gone home? Then I see a big bloke, not being very PC I wonder how he beat me but a quick chat gives me the answer. Somehow he has only ridden 52 miles compared to my 64.9 miles. I also shake hands with the two Putney riders and share hot chocolate and cadbury Creme eggs with them.
I did want to wait and see my clubmates back, but I'm soaked to the skin and getting cold so head off for home.
Back to today and I find out that Nathan did manage the full 100 miles. Jase couldn't resist going home at sixty miles after the ride went right past his front door. And the best news is that Laura and Russell also finished the full 100km route. Though Russell being a true gent beat Laura over the finishing line.
My unofficial place would have been 7th overall, and 1st placed 50+ rider as I think it was the chap who accidently took the short cut that got the only faster time.
Looking back it was one of those rides that was made by the weather, that said sunshine for 2013 would be nice.....please.

My little write up for the club news page. How I saw the sportive.

70 riders on a 100 mile course was always likely to be a bit lonely 🙂

You're right about catching the fast starters though. I've noticed that if I start at a measured pace I can pretty much keep it going all day, whereupon I'll then be passing folk who sped off at the start.

No there were 70 on the 100km route, 190 booked though. Not sure how many did the 100 miles.

I'd much rather go on a long non-competitive ride, preferably one featuring cake and ice-cream

Like a Sportiv? But I thought they were races?

druidh - Member
You're right about catching the fast starters though. I've noticed that if I start at a measured pace I can pretty much keep it going all day, whereupon I'll then be passing folk who sped off at the start.

Great tactics - you are a born racer.

The debate between racing / sportive and club / non club is interesting. I've been thinking of joining a road club, but with 2 young toddlers commitment to club runs and evening training is hard, so I'd hardly ever turn up. Outside commuting my riding is much more ad-hoc.

So I'd like to race, but when I investigate events like surrey league they seem like a closed shop for non club riders.

So the big question is where can I just rock up and race cat 4 with no ties, or which club can I join as a 'remote' member?

Do you have any TLI races near to you. I don't they require a club membership but you do need one of their racing licences.

Go ride? I'm sure there is a start up league for people who want to get into racing.

There's a lot to be said for joining a club which is why BC like you to do it. Turning up to a race without much group riding experience is dangerous for you and everyone else.

Back to the OP; you're talking 80 miles and around 6500 ft of climbing there, a pretty decent ride. Unless you're a fit club rider you'd be foolish to try to do 17 mph; an average of 14 mph is much more realistic.

You should be able to manage 17mph solo on the flat, I can do 17.5 solo up the 53 miles of flat A6 to the South Lakes but the last 7 miles to Windermere is hilly so my average drops to 15.5 mph.

T

So I'd like to race, but when I investigate events like surrey league they seem like a closed shop for non club riders.

So the big question is where can I just rock up and race cat 4 with no ties, or which club can I join as a 'remote' member?

AFAIK private members can still ride surrey league races, it's not a closed shop it's just structured that people who race put something back in to the sport. you might be able to race at crystal palace as a privateer but not 100% on that.

Kingston Wheelers has plenty of members who don't do the club runs or evening training, however in common with most clubs if you're going to race your expected to help with the races the club puts on (not that onerous a task tbh)

Thats interesting kilo. Wheelers are local to me, so I might join and get to training / runs when I can

Thats interesting kilo. Wheelers are local to me, so I might join and get to training / runs when I can

They have a nice new kit design as well.

AFAIK private members can still ride surrey league races, it's not a closed shop it's just structured that people who race put something back in to the sport. you might be able to race at crystal palace as a privateer but not 100% on that.

Private members can still ride Surrey league events but
a) it costs more and
b) you can only enter with about 3 weeks to go so it often means that the events are already full.

It's just geared, as kilo says, towards people who are members of affiliated clubs which help to promote events. Club helps with events, their members get priority at other races within the series. All fair.

Palace is simply turn up, pay your money, anyone can race, even non-members of BC, you just buy a Racing Licence on the day if necessary.

Just looked at the times for the 100 mile sportive, some cracking times there. Considering it was driving rain and a headwind from hell many went under four hours. Certainly rode the socks of the top athletes I knew riding, who on average did it in about 6 hours.

Without trying to be mean or nasty, I do think there is a certain [i]conceit[/i] amongst those who race regularly that they must be the fittest/quickest folk around. Most of the really quick folk I know never race.

Racing doesn't mean you are fast, 4th cat racing can done on legs or brains, 1st cat and you are fast and smart enough

If you know people who are good enough to be 1st cats but don't race but do sportives then tbh I think they are a bit daft. Races are cheaper.

As for the comments on the club scene, I think it varies. I have lots of good experiences

Without trying to be mean or nasty, I do think there is a certain conceit amongst those who race regularly that they must be the fittest/quickest folk around. Most of the really quick folk I know never race.

There's quick and there's being able to win a race. I can put in good times for time trials, hill climbs, sportives but seem to struggle to ride a bunch road race. More tactical when you are riding in a racing bunch. My biggest weakness is not knowing what to do in a sprint. Bad positioning going to early or too late or just bottling it when it gets hairy. If you are a good sprinter you can "just" sit in the bunch and wait till the last lap. You wouldn't maek it in a solo breakaway though

The quickest guys I know race, one was a Euopean track champion, one is now a pro and one holds a world record for RAAM. They race, and they are bloody quick!

 

Strangely last year in near perfect conditions only one rider got in under five hours just.
Hmmmm.....this year rain, gale force winds and sub four hour times 🙄

Also the 100km ride on that event was the slowest I've ever done, do I smell a rat.

Out of interest, to the people who race sportives: why do you choose to enter them instead of a race?

Because my experience of road races is multiple laps of a circuit which even for a supposedly hilly event is still far less challenging terrain than a typical sportive. That and for lower level events generally only 40 or so miles long (I suppose I could have entered 1st cat races, but I can't believe it would be all that much fun being dropped on the first climb). Hence if you're OK at endurance and climbing but rubbish at sprinting a race is pretty much a waste of time from a competitive perspective. Sure you might get away from the bunch in a break, which gives you some sort of objective, but in my admittedly not too extensive racing career I only did two races which didn't finish in a bunch sprint - both with hilltop finishes, and the only times I ever placed high enough to get points.

Far more fun to see how fast you can go and do a combination of working together with others to go faster and try to beat the people you end up riding with over a properly challenging course which doesn't repeat on itself. I speak as somebody who's "won" a sportive (in an event with a small enough entry that most people were in a mass start) 😉

Though if I do ever manage to get race fit again, now I'm old enough I plan to give LVRC events a try.

Raced at weekend - average speed was 25.6mph for 55 mile. And it pissed down and was windy. Was a BC race - not a sportive.

Road races that i've done were horrific. The first 10 miles is some of the worst riding ever seen, generally EVERY race there's some sort of crash and as fun as road racing is, mtb racing where the fittest guy wins, appeals more to me.

So breaking down road racing, whats the appeal to me:

Well i'm 35 so i'm unlikely to be signed by a pro team, i ride for a pretty good bike shop so have team kit. Mtb races i'll get some photo's etc and get the sponsorship message out there for them. Back to road racing then and the appeal:

Do i like riding in groups, chainganging, wheeling about? Yes. = road racing or sportives

Do i do it for the points?. Not really, unless i'll make pro there's no point and since i have no problem riding with and generally stronger than others who are Elite/1/2/3 cat it doesn't prove anything to me

Do i do it for the prize money?. Again not really, i won a tenner once so its not life changing.

Do i like the challenge of beating others? Yes = road racing or sportives then.

So there you have it, for what i want, that being a challenge ( which is all racing is at the end of the day) then a sportive can provide that, but ( IMO) in a safer, friendlier enviroment.

Oh and for those who say its quite slow, me and another bloke done a 4hr 16 minute 100 miler last September. Not exactly slow on a hilly wet and windy course

Most of the really quick folk I know never race

How on earth do you know how fast they are compared to those that do?

t ( IMO) in a safer, friendlier enviroment.

Why is a sportive safer? Less marshals, no restrictions for courses, any clown on a bike can ride them, insurance invalidated if "racing " occurring

Raced at weekend - average speed was 25.6mph for 55 mile. And it pissed down and was windy. Was a BC race - not a sportive.

You're not going to cut it in the world of sportives then are you 😉

That sportive I did was under the same conditions and a 17.7mph average got me the 7th fastest time. Only a few if any managed anywhere near 20mph average, but all those in front of me rode alone.

Raced at weekend - average speed was 25.6mph for 55 mile. And it pissed down and was windy. Was a BC race - not a sportive.

feels in inadequate now...

not comparing eggs with eggs though eh?

a bunch doing 26mph ish for 55 miles are fairly obviously gonna hold a higher avergae then a load of (essentially) solo riders strung along a 100 mile course.

what i want to know is, why all the bikes marketed as sportive bikes, are mostly upright relaxed geometry? Is it because they are aimed at the 'older' rider?

I think typically its because Sportives are viewed as longer distance events, where a little more comfort and a little less razor sharp handling is seen as a good compromise.

Out of interest, to the people who race sportives: why do you choose to enter them instead of a race? Surely there are more road races/ crit races/ track races/ mtb races that are marketed as races than there are sportives and they cost less to enter, and quite often have proper trophies/ prize money.

I think aracer has already answered this, you can't compare sportives and races, I don't know any race that does a 100 mile circuit of the Cairngorms, starting and finishing at the top of one of the highest roads in Britain, likewise, I don't know any race that does 110 miles from Ullapool, circumnavigating some of Britain's wildest and most spectacular scenery, whie ALSO taking in some incredible, winding twisting roads.

This is the sort of road riding which appeals to me, and better yet you can [s]train[/s] [i]prepare[/i] 😉 for these sort of rides by just going out and spending long weekends on country roads.

I also enjoy the sort of scattered nature of the other people on the road, you might spend half an hour chasing down that big group ahead of you, only to find out they're much slower and had just set off earlier. So be it, you maybe join in, have a quick chat, then leave, or just carry on to the next group on the road. Of course, you can also find yourself out by yourself on an empty road, then look back and notice the road is now wall to wall riders as a big, late starting group has caught up with you. I don't see the harm in riding like this so long as you're friendly and chatty with folk and don't go all Lance Armstrong 'looking back' every time you pass someone 😆

smuttiesmith - Member
Druid are you the guy that races off up the hill or down the descent on the tuesday night ride and then congratulates himself about owning everyone? You are aren't you!

Yes. yes, that's me. You've got me down to a "T", as anyone on here who knows me will attest.

😆

a bunch doing 26mph ish for 55 miles are fairly obviously gonna hold a higher avergae then a load of (essentially) solo riders strung along a 100 mile course.

I took that as MW implying that a road race though fast is by the looks of things slower than people ride far tougher sportives alone and over twice the distance....and possibly doubting that.

The only proper credible rider I know (my Molly Sugdens wedding moment) is a guy called Mike Olheiser (numerous US national and world titles, currently a pro with Competative Cyclist. Trains with 3rd place TdF rider Mancebo and even beaten a certain Lance a few times) reckons that if you can ride hard and fast 26mph as sportives riders do over 100 miles in very tough conditions, then there's a place for you in the peloton.

26mph as sportives riders do over 100 miles in very tough conditions

How many Sportive riders do this though? I bet they've already got racing licenses with a 1 or 2 on them.

A couple of old boys did the 100 miles in well under four hours this Sunday.

26 mph solo for 100 miles?

well yeh. i would expect you to have a place in a peleton somewhere for that.

**** me mate. thats TT pace, but sustained. for 4 hrs.