[Closed] Specialized's Rear Suspension set up.Impressed! is it the best?

It's been around for a long time. Spesh bought the design from Horst Leitener (sp?) and have been refining it for, what? 20 years?
Lots of European manufacturers copy it because the Spesh patent doesn't apply here.
Most decent systems are a 4-bar of some design or other, with the pivots on different places to avoid the patent

I'd say they've got it about right, yeah.

Depends what you like...

Personally after about 10 years of different things I'm happy with vpp. The choice is yours best is very subjective and of course it's what the man selling specialized would say.

The guy in shop it's the best because of how it pivots the wheel up & down unlike other manufacturers where there rear wheel pivots towards the front thus on return throwing the bike forwards.

It may be the best (I doubt it, life just isn't that simple) but his rationale is an utter lie.

+ 1 for the best suspension being the stuff you bought because you like it...

You can ask about almost anything whether Horst, single pivot, VPP, OST/+, various other approaches ... Whatever. Each has it's fans, supposed benefits and supposed negatives depending who you talk to. If it works for you and you like the way it rides more than other designs in your price range, you have a winner. Single pivot seems especially divisive, most seem to agree Horst based designs can work well.

You're the one shelling the beans for it and riding it...

Maybe try some different bikes at a trail centre hire place or demo days? You may surprise yourself. 🙂

I think it's awesome, and I have an old '06 Enduro and a '11 Stumpjumper. Do I like it the best because I bought it, or did I buy it because I like it the best?
there aren't many people who don't like the Specialized four-bar suspension system. It just works.

Wasn't the Horst Link an essential invention to enable v brakes or cantilevers to not fall off the rim sidewalls as the suspension moves?

what is "v brake?"

I do like Horst link bikes for DHing, they just seem to track really well but, if I'm honest, I prefer VPP for around riding. That might be down to the shocks I've used though.

Not a single pivot fan.

Wasn't the Horst Link an essential invention to enable v brakes or cantilevers to not fall off the rim sidewalls as the suspension moves?

😆

brant - Member
Wasn't the Horst Link an essential invention to enable v brakes or cantilevers to not fall off the rim sidewalls as the suspension moves?

anyway here are some of your choices
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_suspension#Rear_suspension

The guy in the shop says it's the best because they sell them and how it pivots the wheel up & down unlike other the manufacturers bikes they don't sell where there rear wheel pivots up and down but in an unperceivably different arc

I spent months doing back-to-back tests on a 4-bar (Maestro) and a Single Pivot bike and came to the conclusion that the Single Pivot suited me better. I wouldn't claim it was the best though, it just suits where I am as a rider right now better. Horses for courses though.

There are a bunch of guys and girls with other-worldly skills who are paid to find out which suspension system is best and compete very other Sunday in the summer months. They've yet to reach a definitive answer, so the likes of us have little hope.

It's worth remembering that outwardly very small variances in pivot placement can have a profound effect upon how any suspension system behaves. I own two Specialized Horst Link frames with nine years' development between them and they feel markedly different even though both setups are very similar to the eye.

I also run a Marin Quad Link II, which is a four-bar but feels very different to either Specialized in that there's much more pedal feedback, but the Marin feels very "reactive" for want of a better word and demands a less aggressive pedalling style.

Certainly happy with mine (26er Camber) and it seems to be a great compliment to my other bike (29er Carve). It helps when I've set them up very differently. The Carve being very xc and the fs being very trail, well whatever that means. In my book I'd term it fun/playful/chuckable.

It's very complicated! I'm riding a KS-link bike now and it works incredibly well - I understand fairly well how it's moving but I couldn't tell you how all the forces are interacting to make it pedal so efficiently yet feel so smooth in the rough. Witchcraft...

Your dealer is talking nonsense but Specialized used to market their bikes on a vertical axle path so you can't really blame him. They actually have one of the most forward axle paths.

That said I still think it's still the best design all things considered. Followed by linkage activated single pivots, dual rotating links, dual counter rotating links and then the semi URT crap from GT and Moongoose.

Very cleaver design. Am I right in saying specialized have never been a manufacturer of bikes but a developer of bikes?

Lots of shops have demo stumpjumpers to just get out and try one and see if you like it.
Personally I'd not get to caught up with the techy side of it.

For me I've always liked the fsr system and have two still. yet to try a 29er one as I'm still happy with my out of date 26

Very cleaver design. Am I right in saying specialized have never been a manufacturer of bikes but a developer of bikes?

What?

The guy in shop it's the best because of how it pivots the wheel up & down unlike other manufacturers where there rear wheel pivots towards the front thus on return throwing the bike forwards.

Stop listening to this man.

One thing that bothers me about FSR - if it's so good for everything, how come Specialized need to add the Brain inertia valve on the XC race bikes?

I like the brain equipped fsr I've used. But guessing its a little old design now
When its first came out in 2003? Rear shocks were rather piss poor for dealing with pedal induced bob
So to me at the time it made sence.
Now modern shocks are getting so much better , my enduro pedals far better than a big bike should up hill
With its modern air shock

how come Specialized need to add the Brain inertia valve on the XC race bikes?

I think URT is the bestest

It does have lower amount of brake jack/ squat or what ever you want to call it . And they do track the ground betterer whe climbing over a single pivot.
Well thats my experience yours may be different.
Oh and most manufacturers try getting around the Horst link pivot in the chain stay by putting them in the seat stay or in the axle,so I guess there's something in it.

Just daft to suggest there's a "best" because there's a load of different jobs that bikes do, and a load of different jobs that suspension does, and a load of different ways that people like their bikes to work. And even within a single form like a horst link you can still vary how it rides in other ways, moving pivots etc.

But FSR is pretty... normal. I can't imagine many people riding it and going "urgh"

OT NW did you get my e-mail reply about that lamp?

It’s not the general layout you like, in this case 4 bar, it’s the designers beliefs you appreciate that has developed the specific layout, the exact pivot points that attain the balance of feel, brake squat and anti-squat that the designer feels right.

In other words, what im trying to say is it’s not the general layout you like, it’s what the designer has set out to achieve you like. You can make a 4 bar perform like a single pivot and vice-versa.

To go off on a little tangent, single pivot, you can’t manipulate the feel (leverage rate), also brake jack is proportionate to anti-squat, pedal feedback proportionate to anti-squat, you can’t really manipulate wheel path too much either. A linkage driven single pivot builds on a single pivot by allowing you the freedom to manipulate leverage rate (feel). All other suspension is essentially 4 bar, ie fsr, vpp, maestro, dw link, switch link etc etc. What 4 bars allows you is more independence between leverage rate, wheel path, anti-squat and brake jack. What you’re liking is the designers opinion of what is the best balance of compromises for that particular application.

putting them in the seat stay or in the axle,so I guess there's something in it.

That makes a linkage actuated single pivot, massive difference for such a tiny adjustment in the postion of the pivot.

Went from a zesty to a stumpy, stumpy is definately a more active system. Is it better, I dunno, just a different feel

I tend to find spesh 4 bars a bit too active for my liking - but that's kind of the point - there isn't a best design. Most of the current ones have pros and cons and which is best will entirely depend on the rider and what they're actually riding.

To the OP, you really need to ignore that guy at the bike shop. He's a classic bike BSer.

Got a cotic 4 bar with horst link, I like it, very supple when climbing, there's times when I like my single pivot too tho, especially when servicing 🙂
No idea what my etsx was, none HL 4 bar I guess, that climbed ok, just not as good as the cotic. Will soon see what my new HL-patent-evading-pivot-above-the-dropout rocky mountain 4 bar is like.

Not tried vpp or dw.

my new HL-patent-evading-pivot-above-the-dropout rocky mountain 4 bar

That's a faux bar - single pivot with linkage actuated shock.

noooooo the pivot is still on the chainstay they've just nudged it up so it's [url= ]higher up than the dropout[/url]

I knew someone would say that 😉

Right, sorry, wasn't familiar with the latest RM - I had an earlier RM Element which is definitely faux bar. It's been my favourite full susser so far mind.

yeah they were supposed to be pretty good, not sure I'd go for a faux bar personally. either minimal maintenance single pivot or a proper 4 bar, faux seems a compromise too far but never ridden one so what do I know. I quite fancied one of the new 4bar element 29ers, but this was a warranty replacement so didn't get a choice.

@bigyinn, not sure, can't access my email from here but will check tonight!

Bikes I have had in order of how well the suspension has performed....

----Good
Mondraker dune - VPP
Marin Wolf ridge - VPP
Norco Six - horst Link
Specialised Enduro - horst Link
----Bad
Kona Stinky - Single Pivot (linkage driven)
commencal absolut AX - Single Pivot (linkage driven)

To be honest both the VPP and Horst link are excellent - minimal bob and brake jack - not much between them but just enough to notice.

The Mondraker in particular has the most neutral and bottomless feeling of any bike Iv ridden.

Don't like the single pivot ones really at all - too bobby.
The Commencal is worst of all - this has a BB pivot - it bobs lots and doesn't make up for it with a plush action.

And that's a good point about different bikes - longer travel bikes will tend to show up suspension design differences more than shorter ones. For a short travel bike, many will find that single pivot/faux bar, hell, even URT(!) may well work reallt well if you can get around preconceptions.

Think it'll be interesting over the next few years to find out how many of the other suspension designs just quietly vanish now that the horst link patent's lapsed... i've already been wrong on this with Kona so I'm not going to make any more predictions 😆 But it's always felt like a lot of "suspension innovation" is really just lawyer-avoidance.

a lot of "suspension innovation" is really just lawyer-avoidance.

That, and buzz-word-ology.

Thanks for your input guys.
I test road an Anthem X 29Er Sunday and loved it. Very nippy and yes your right dident feel as active as fSr.prefer the look of the anthem to camber anyway but I was trying to buy a bike with the best set up but now I will go with what feels best for me. Ta.

now that the horst link patent's lapsed...

something else I was thinking about, how a suspension feels and if it works for you sounds a better idea than going for a particular design, but that means the bike with the shock tune that most matches your weight and style is probably what you will buy. But if you bought the best design and then fannied around with the shock settings/tune to get that right for you [b]then[/b] you'll have the best setup. More work/expense than your average rider will do tho. I know my setup "regime" is pretty lame. Ride around front street, up and down a few flights of stairs, can I wheely/hop ok? job done. Only really do 1 or 2 clicks of compression/rebound if something feels dodgy on the trail and add or remove a few psi if too much or little travel. Pretty lazy really, I should do more but who has the time/inclination to do timed back to back downhills, run #1 with 1 click of rebound, now with 2 clicks, now 3, yawn

The problem with a lot of discussions about suspension designs is that they tend to ignore the large role played by the shock. Single pivot, for example, would probably have died out long ago if it weren't for modern shocks. But with a modern shock you can tune out most of the undesirable features of a design.

I like my SP Five, but only because the design puts the shock in easy reach and I'm happy to fiddle with the settings as I ride (sometimes using all 5 settings in a single ride). If I were the sort of rider who preferred to leave the shock alone and just ride I'd probably think SP was rubbish.

The shock on my VPP santa cruz is in the same place as on a 5, easy to reach and change, about the same place as my old 04 enduro but that was a PITA to change the rebound. For me VPP and FSR still beats SP overall as a riding platform and the way the bike feels on the big hits.

The guy in shop it's the best because [s]of how it pivots the wheel up & down unlike other manufacturers where there rear wheel pivots towards the front thus on return throwing the bike forwards[/s] he sells it.

FTFY. 😉

Single pivot, for example, would probably have died out long ago if it weren't for modern shocks

Peddling a Horst Link or VPP bike......

Pro pedal off = tiny bit of bob + maximum traction
Pro pedal on mid setting = imperceptible bob + very good traction
Pro pedal on max = not required

Peddling a single pivot bike......

Pro pedal off = unacceptable levels of bob + maximum traction
Pro pedal on mid setting = tiny bit of bob + very good traction
Pro pedal on max = imperceptible bob + good traction

So you can dial it out but (In my opinion) its still inferior.

jacob46 - Member
.... unlike other manufacturers where there rear wheel pivots towards the front thus on return throwing the bike forwards.

Sounds fantastic. Free acceleration. And the rougher the ground the faster you'll go. 😀

roverpig my SP has a coil shock, no platform, rebound and comp is difficult to get to, forks are basic float R so no mid ride changes there either. Kind of relaxing never having to mess with the shocks (on the other FS I'm constantly lowering/raising the talas forks and swapping propedal settings) Bit bobby but I manage some big rides/hills on it ok and coil shock is soooo plush on the downs.

Peddling a Horst Link or VPP bike......

Pro pedal off = tiny bit of bob + maximum traction
Pro pedal on mid setting = imperceptible bob + very good traction
Pro pedal on max = not required

Peddling a single pivot bike......

Pro pedal off = unacceptable levels of bob + maximum traction
Pro pedal on mid setting = tiny bit of bob + very good traction
Pro pedal on max = imperceptible bob + good traction

My pedant-o-meter just exploded 👿

That's an absolutely massive generalisation though. Some single pivots ride perfectly well even without pro pedal, depending on their specific design and the application they're being used for and the rider's style/preferences. They may well not suit your riding.

Similarly, as I noted above, I don't like the way Spesh horsts tend to feel. They don't suit me. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them.

My pedant-o-meter just exploded

hows that pedantic - I am about to spend a months income on something.....
Shall I get something that kinda works or just works - for the same money in a lot of cases.

Peddling and pedal in the same body of text...

With the different amount of variables in a suspension bike it's impossible to generalise.
Instant centre, chain growth, axle path, damping rates, chainring sizes, shock rate, wheel rate... Far far more to it than single vs four bar.

That's an absolutely massive generalisation though. Some single pivots ride perfectly well even without pro pedal, depending on their specific design and the application they're being used for and the rider's style. They may well not suit your riding.

I spent two seasons guiding on a 2003 Five (and a short time on a 2003 Patriot). Open shock, single pivot, 140mm travel. It bobbed a lot if I pedalled uphill like I was stomping down garden turf, but otherwise it was never really a problem. Certainly seated while climbing kept bob to a minimum, and arguably no more than climbing with platform shocks I've since used.

For the record, I ran it with 1/3 sag and a medium-slow rebound, which seemed about spot-on.

Shall I get something that kinda works or just works

You should get what works best for you (which you seem to have worked out) without assuming that you're able to make absolute statements for how they work for everyone else.

the thing that is being pedaled the most is BS though 🙂

hows that pedantic - I am about to spend a months income on something.....
Shall I get something that kinda works or just works - for the same money in a lot of cases.

Get whatever you like best, but don't try to pretend that other people are wrong. It's all subjective. What you consider to be unacceptable may be fine for somebody else.

Personally I found my Maestro equipped bike was a good compromise with the pro-pedal off, but it was just that, a compromise, and it was a pain to reach the lever. With my SP bike I have 5 levels of platform to play with and can always get it to feel just how I want. But I'm quite happy that somebody else would hate it.

Best suspension system?
/end thread
[img] [/img]

Pimpmaster Jazz - Member

That's an absolutely massive generalisation though. Some single pivots ride perfectly well even without pro pedal, depending on their specific design and the application they're being used for and the rider's style. They may well not suit your riding.

I spent two seasons guiding on a 2003 Five (and a short time on a 2003 Patriot). Open shock, single pivot, 140mm travel. It bobbed a lot if I pedalled uphill like I was stomping down garden turf, but otherwise it was never really a problem. Certainly seated while climbing kept bob to a minimum, and arguably no more than climbing with platform shocks I've since used.

I was about to type something similar.

I wonder if complicated suspension platforms are just compensating for people pedalling like gorillas? 😛

I spent two seasons guiding on a 2003 Five (and a short time on a 2003 Patriot). Open shock, single pivot, 140mm travel.

Now, you see, that's a setup that I'm pretty sure I'd hate. But if I were fitter, stronger and not racing anybody it may be fine.

I wonder if complicated suspension platforms are just compensating for people pedalling like gorillas?

Could be, but in my case I think it's more a matter of not being fit or strong enough. It could also be partly an ex-roadie and hardtail owner thing too. If I'm on a fireroad type climb I just don't want any energy to be wasted in the shock, because I know I'm going to need it later in the ride.

Possibly but then so what? That may well be their style and/or what works best for them. That's the point really, we're all different, so there isn't a 'best' design.

hows that pedantic - I am about to spend a months income on something.....
Shall I get something that kinda works or just works - for the same money in a lot of cases.

I spent a tiny fraction of your months wages on a 10 year old frame - as I like the way the suspension "works".

To me, it "works" better than the 'equivalent' 2014 frame.

without assuming that you're able to make absolute statements for how they work for everyone else.

Peddling a bike ought to be the same for everyone... shouldn't it - unless your legs sprout from the side of your head - or you prefer to sit facing backwards or something?

Stop peddling your assumptions!

We don't all pedal the same. Some people spin, some grind, some like to move around the bike lots, others don't. Some stand lots, others rarely do. Some people are heavier than others, stronger than others, more or less circular in their pedalling, etc. etc. Some will compromise pedaling efficiency for better DH performance, others will be the other way around. Some poeple like their suspension to move loads and be really sensitive, others just want it to work well on bigger hits.

Stop peddling your assumptions!

We don't all pedal the same

side saddle?

I forgot to list that one 🙂

and having tried plenty I still don't get on with SP that well for pedalling hard. Regardless of the shock it just doesn't play well enough for out of the saddle smashing it.
Happy with more efficient bikes

Peddling a bike ought to be the same for everyone... shouldn't it - unless your legs sprout from the side of your head - or you prefer to sit facing backwards or something?

You're new here aren't you. 😉

Now, you see, that's a setup that I'm pretty sure I'd hate. But if I were fitter, stronger and not racing anybody it may be fine.

I think that's the point I was trying to make. At that time I was fit, could spin seated (and keep upper body movement to a minimum - it all helps) or grind out of the saddle (which again seemed to help alleviate bob) but I wasn't racing, and most climbs were either short and sharp or long and gradual.

Would it work everywhere? No. Would it work for everyone? Again, no. But it's certainly possible to adapt to, and I actually like the simplicity of doing away for a lot of the more fiddley technology, and being left with a suspension system that gripped on the ups and was very supple on the downs.

I think it's a hard thing to be really analytical about. Like, in technical terms, the suspension on my Orange is a bag of assorted shit. Big forward axle path, falling rate in the end stroke, bags of pedal and brake feedback, and it pedals like a blancmange. But the bike as a whole is a brilliant laugh to ride so you end up going away thinking "I like this" even though there's quite a bit that's arguably wrong with it and some things that are completely ass-backwards. But if you put the same behaviour in a different bike you could easily find it's fit for the bin. And most people don't really have the capability to experiment widely, you can't move pivots much.

This thread needs more Vouilloz.

How about DW? I've been impressed at the grip, lack of bob and lack of fiddling. Leave shock fully open end of unless you particularly want to stomp on the pedals on a tarmac hill.

I wonder if complicated suspension platforms are just compensating for people pedalling like gorillas?

IIRC lowey of this parish bought a DW turner and for the first few weeks he was convinced it was trying to kill him, tucking and bucking at various inopportune moments. He had a chat with Mr Turner, set the shock up as per his advice and now loves it.

Even though others have said (including a bike designer), get past the "layout" of the suspension, it tells you nothing. Yes a maestro will be optimised a certain way, fsr will be optimised in a different way, but they're variations on the same layout. However a maestro and fsr could perform identically if the designers had the same design beliefs. What is different is what the designer has CHOSEN to optimise certain trait based on THEIR design beliefs, whose beliefs may or may not syncronise with YOUR beliefs.

Plus that age old saying "you can't have your cake and eat it". It's all a balancing act of compromises, comprimises that are dictacted by the designer, not the general layout of suspension.

But it's always felt like a lot of "suspension innovation" is really just lawyer-avoidance.

Interesting. I do wonder how many people have actually ridden a lot of different designs. Of a similar era. Its easy to say that one is better than another but when you take the component into account then its a different ball game. I believe that the shock tune will effect the way it feels a lot more than the type of linkage its self. It is entirely possible to get a horst link with a cheap shock to feel rubbish compared to a sp with one of these new fangled super dooper socks. and visa versa.

However its different stokes for different blokes. Some people like 29ers, some people dont. its all in the individual. Personally (and riding a 2013 five) i think the horst link is a very good design. I also think half of them are made up marketing gimmicks.

I believe that the shock tune will effect the way it feels a lot more than the type of linkage its self.

I think that definitely plays a large part, especially in these days of platforms and double barrels.

I think it also depends on how much you like changing bearings. Worthy of consideration if you plan on keeping a suss bike for more than a year...

Going out with a mixed bunch of riders up and down stuff all on different pivot/suspension linkages tells me repeatedly that the differences are small these days and that the evolution and refinement of technology is such that they all work well.

The biggest variable factor on a bicycle (of a reasonable quality not an ASDA two for £99 special) is the rider.

The mathematics show this is the best design. You will be very happy to ride this bike.

The mathematics show this is the best design. You will be very happy to ride this bike!

thank you!

 

best suspension bike I owned for trail riding and all round hooligan action was my Devinci Dixon with the DW designed Split Pivot suspension, Fox RP23 with Fox air volume tuning kit.

[img] [/img]

Have owned lots of VPP, simple single pivots and FSR / four-bar (horst pivot) and faux-bar bikes, probably 40+ suspension bikes in total.

The Dixon had the balance of a bike that could be hammered under power without bouncing or squatting (an issue with my FSR's), whilst maintaining amazing traction on horrible terrain, especially when braking hard.

Don't claim to understand the science, it just plain worked. Rarely touched the pro-pedal level on the RP23 shock, unlike on my FSR where is was constantly used to increase compression damping and make the bike somewhat pedallable

the other thing I really liked about the Dixon is that each pivot had the same (large) sealed bearing and sensible hard wearing axle pivot hardware, which meant it rarely required any looking after!